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Man guilty of firebomb attack on publisher of Mohamed book

Incident followed storm over 'The Jewel of Medina'

By Cahal Milmo, Chief reporter

The American author, Sherry Jones was subjected to a tirade of threats from Islamic extremists

AP

The American author, Sherry Jones was subjected to a tirade of threats from Islamic extremists

A minicab driver was found guilty yesterday of helping try to firebomb the home of a publisher days before the release of a novel about the marital life of the Prophet Mohamed.

Abbas Taj, 30, was waiting in his car as two accomplices poured diesel through the letter box of the four-storey home of Martin Rynja, who had vowed to publish The Jewel of Medina after the American-based giant Random House postponed publication due to concerns that the book would lead to "acts of violence" by Muslim extremists. Taj, from Forest Gate, east London, arrived outside the home of Mr Rynja in Islington, at 2am on 27 September last year and watched Abrar Mirza, a mobile phone salesman, and Ali Beheshti, who is unemployed, try to set light to the house, which is also the publisher's office.

Police, who had warned Mr Rynja that an attack was possible, arrested Mirza and Beheshti outside the house as the fire was started, and kicked down the door to extinguish the flames. Taj drove away.

A jury at Croydon Crown Court in south London convicted Taj by a majority verdict of conspiracy to recklessly damage property and endanger life. Taj shook his head as he was found guilty and mouthed "No". He had claimed to have "no idea" about the plot and and was just giving a lift to friends. Beheshti, 41, from Ilford, and Mirza, 23, from Walthamstow, had pleaded guilty to conspiracy at a previous hearing,

The Jewel of Medina is a fictionalised seventh-century account of the life of Aisha, the third of Mohamed's 13 wives often referred to as the prophet's "favourite". They were engaged when she was six and married three years later.

A Texas-based academic sent a pre-publication copy decided it "made fun of Muslims and their history", and wrote to moderate Muslims and the press warning that its contents could provoke anger. Random House, which paid the author, Sherry Jones, $100,000 (£65,000) for a two-book deal, held publication, saying security experts and scholars of Islam believed releasing the novel could endanger its employees.

Mr Rynja announced his Gibson House imprint would take on the title, saying he had been "bowled over" by its contents and wanted to see its release "regardless of fear".

The three men are to be sentenced in July.

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Comments

THIS RELIGION MAKES ME SICK!
[info]nooraza wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 09:35 am (UTC)
Mohamed is a vile pedophile! That's the brutal fact that most Muslims are deaf to! Now we know how such a religion is capable of producing dark-age barbarian Islamists like those criminal thugs above; who only knows how to use violence in resolving problems! Bravo to the brave Ms. Jones and Mr. Rynja!
Does this mean Jacob, son of Ishaq is a pedophile as well?
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 11:11 am (UTC)
It is possible to vilify any religion on earth. But anyway, I see your comments throughout this site, from article to article, defending Israel n' just bashing Islam.

I'll ask you again, does this mean Jacob and other Jewish prophets and kings were vile pedophiles as well?
YOUR ANTI-SEMITISM IS COWARDICE!
[info]nooraza wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 01:46 pm (UTC)
Islamist thugs like you will defend your barbarian practises that still continues in your religion until this very modern world, unlike most other civilizations that have progressed. Is it any wonder that the Sharia 'Law' such as in Saudi Arabia or most Islamic-ruled nation-states, is as barbaric as during the pedophile's time such as that is allowing child brides for example, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/01/saudi-arabian-child-marriage-annulled
Marriage of Saudi Arabian girl, eight, annulled
Re: YOUR LOGIC IS JUST RETARDED!!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 05:20 am (UTC)
bla bla bla, as usual, when a zionist is cornered, he/she throw the "anti-semitism" accusation.. I didn't attack u personally, I just presetned a logical point, if Mohammed is a pedophile for marrying a minor (which is not a fact, her age is not known), then, it follows that your prophets and kings were pedophiles as well for marrying minors!!!

you know, funny thing, I know someone who was raped by a jew when she was 8, she happens to be a gentile christian, n' guess what, your Talmud (book of law)says its alright, to have sex with a child.. so, does this make all jews pedophiles??

What about the barbarity of your Zionist soldiers in Gaza, and their "one shot, two kills" shirts, proud to kill pregnent palestenian women? Does this make all jews ruthless cold-blooded n' proud murderers who consider others to be just animals?

you're really dark, n' filled with hate inside, to an extent that you can't see the truth anymore, n' it's impossible to have a meaningful or decent conversation with you!
smoothop8388: YOUR ISLAMIST THINKING IS JUST RETARDED!!
[info]nooraza wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 07:51 am (UTC)
Get real! I'm talking about the founder of your religion, that vile Mohamed, who's a pedophile and sex maniac! You can't understand simple English or something, such vile practises as set in example by this Mohamed is still being practised until today, unlike in other civilizations which ahve adpated to modernity! What do you expect - of course the followers will follow the leader; no matter how vile he is! I supposed they are brainwashed!
Re: Just take a hike!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:01 am (UTC)
Modernity, huh? your entire terrorist, criminal, n' borderless state was based on a 3000 year old book, and all your crimes are justified by that book, n' another one written by your prominant jewish scholars (the Talmud).

I had with you, I wasn't going to reply to you, but if you think you're good in english, n'you know how to insult, i'll play this game with you once..

Just wear your "one shot, two kills", proud to kill palestenian pregnent women t-shirt, go to your occupied park, which sits on a grave of a family you killed 60 years ago,contemplate on how you're going to build more settlments n'steal more land, read your 3000 year old book, which tells you your god's chosen people, n' your allowed to kill children, then, fetch your other book, read about how the fathers of your faith (the rabbis of the talmud), who could be your ancestors (thats if your semetic to begin with), slept with their 3 year old daughters and considred it holy, married their neices, and said it was right to kill and steal from gentiles coz they're animals..
smoothop8388: Your hatred of the Jews are sickening!
[info]nooraza wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:14 am (UTC)
Just because I criticize racist, sexist and fascist Islamist barbarians, including yourself there, you assume I'm a Jew? I will defend the Jews, Christians or anyone else, who are abused by the like you! Hey, don't you understand English, your founder Mohamed, is a vile pedophile and sex maniac (thus why he also constructed polygamy law); is it any wonder that many of his male followers are as sick as he is?!
Re: smoothop8388: Your hatred of the Jews are sickening!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:23 pm (UTC)
Just take a hike, lady, I dont hate Jews; I'm against Israel, and if you want to condemn Islam for what you claim, then, you should also condemn Judaism for the same reason.. n' Israel n' whoever supports them.. I have utter respect for many humane, reasonable, educated, and respectable Jewish people.. on the other hand, am 100% sure you are a Zionist baby-killer in disguise, who wants to act like she's a Christian on the side of the Zionists.. stop your pathetic acting! It's really poor, I've seen your comments elsewhere!

I hate drama queens like you who are really stupid, ignorant and hypocrite, who don't have the first clue how to answer to an argument or defend their position n' only know how to throw insults.. This is a place for grown up people who know how to discuss things reasonably, not for insignificant, irrelevant, n' brainless people like yourself.. Seriously, get lost, get some education, learn how to talk like reasonable human beings not like 6 year olds..
Hey, you anti-Jew Islamist moron, can`t stand a woman speaking up do you?
[info]nooraza wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 12:31 pm (UTC)
You shite barbarian Islamist! How dare you determing what religion I should be - who the shite are you? I criticize your anti-semitism hatred of the Jews and I cannot be a Christian? Shite off! You should really crawl into your caves like your primitive Islamist buddies there, who does not seem to have any intelectuality in your shite cavemen brain there!
Re: THIS RELIGION MAKES ME SICK!
[info]corporeal4now wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)

As a christian you should be fully aware that images of God, angels, prophets etc are not permitted. Including the image of prophet Jesus. In the Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic versions of the religion.

As a christain you should realise that its also your religion - the religion of those who submit to the will of God, just as Jesus submits to the will of God, his creator.

So just stop your blaspheming rantings against Gods religion - you are just making commiting crimes against your own soul.

Those who know that certain things are not permissable, should heed the advice given to them. Sherry Jones would be greatly mistaken to think that only the extremists take offence to her mocking Islamic history. She will find that 99.999% of all muslims around the world will object to what she is doing. This type of religious mockery is not up for negotiation as history has shown in Denmark.

Jones and Rynja must realise - play with fire & it will burn you! Plenty of people out there pissed off with what the west is doing to muslims around the world already, this type of religious mockery just adds insult to injury.
Islam incompatible with liberty and tolerance
[info]mstamper wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 10:29 am (UTC)
I did multiple Google searches on the firebombing to see if I could find any Muslims who publicly denounced this crime. I could find none. Worse, the Muslims that did speak praised the bombers, referred to the author and publisher as 'filthy whores', and urged more violence. There is zero compatibility between Islam and any Western notion of freedom. Those who displease Muslims risk violent death. How much more evidence do we need? Muslims use Western tolerance to gain control, after which nothing but Islamist thoughts are tolerated. Why is this happening? Because we have lost our courage and our resolve, and because we value our safety and comfort more than we value our freedom. If present trends continue, we will have neither safety, comfort, nor freedom. We will be slaves.
Re: Islam incompatible with liberty and tolerance
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC)
wow, can you be anymore scientific and academic to prove this incompatibility.

"We will be slaves."

This Islamophobia is becoming hilarious.
Re: Islam incompatible with liberty and tolerance
[info]mstamper wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 02:11 pm (UTC)
It would be helpful to read the words of some prominent Muslims or Muslim organizations that denounced the bombing, and defended the rights of the author and publisher. Can you produce such testimony? I doubt it. Where are the Muslims who would say "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it (Francois Marie Arouet)"? If such people exist, I suspect they are very lonely and afraid (and may not be Muslims for long).
Insulting Islam is incompatible with tolerance, fighting racism, uniting people, n' moral priorities
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 05:39 am (UTC)
Unfortunately, prominent muslims and muslim organizations have other things to worry about, the things that touch the muslims n' the muslim or arab public opinion, such as:

1- The systematic expulsion of arab muslims n' christians from Jerusalem.
2- The siege on Gaza and its 1.5 million inhabitants.
3- The occupation of Iraq, the poverty, theft n' violence over there (more than 1 million dead) since 2003.
4- The conspiracy and political smothering of Lebanon since 2004.
5- The occupation of Afghanistan and the killing of civilians since 2001.
6- The continuous attacks on Pakistan's civilians, and the internal war against Taliban (western made n' funded Taliban).
7- The sectarian strife ultimately fed n' nurtured by America.
8- The sanctions on Syria, and Iran.
9- The very possible attack against Iran.
10- The struggle against al qaida and its thought (also western made n' nurtured).

Do you want me to continue?
I don't think anybody heard about this silly woman, who didn't find anything better to write about other than the prophet's imaginary sexual life, n' trying to mock arabs n' muslims (1 billion people)!! n' even if they did, I think we have enough on your plate already to give a damn about your freedom of speech.

So, go ahead, make the world a better place, go draw a picture of mohammed as a terrorist, feed the hate more, so you can prove to yourself that you can say whatever you want, while your politicians are sending your young men to war and robbing you blind!
Re: Insulting Islam is incompatible with tolerance, fighting racism, uniting people, n' moral priori
[info]mstamper wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 11:01 am (UTC)
These very legitimate concerns (except perhaps #10) have nothing to do with the issue at hand - the right to publish your opinion about a religion without fear of being murdered. You would be surprised to learn that I agree completely with you about items 1-9. You are changing the subject because I think you understand that your position is indefensible. Your statement that you "don't give a damn about your freedom of speech" is what I've been saying all along. Sharia (the form of government I suspect you desire) is completely incompatible with fundamental human rights like freedom of speech. Why can't you just grow up and tolerate criticism? You don't have to accept it. Why do words frighten you so much? Why is your first impulse to murder your critics? I want to be able to speak my opinion without fear. This desire seems incompatible with your religion. You have proven this in your remarks here. You don't care about freedom. You don't even understand what freedom is. As I said before, these views are incompatible with secular governance as practiced in the West. The alternative to freedom is slavery. These are the stakes in this debate.
Re: Insulting Islam is incompatible with tolerance, fighting racism, uniting people, n' moral priori
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 05:54 am (UTC)
Except #10?
Do you know how many al qaida attacks happened in the middle east in the past 8 years?? in Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Algeria.. you think we're enjoying the fireworks??

Who called it al qaida? Who found the database? who funded it? Who funded the algerian islamists? Who helped n' funded Fateh alislam in Lebanon which killed lebanese ppl? who funded Taliban in afghanistan?

"your position is indefensible"

What position? I'm not defending those crazy criminals who targeted that lady! they deffinately got what they desserve!

you're not getting my point! go back to your previous reply, dont just ask me those stupid questions! you seriously need to grow up n' learn how to debate!! you asked why didn't prominent muslims and muslim organizations speak out! well, simply, coz we have enough on our plate to care about this silly stuff, this is small potatoes for us to care about, when we have all those wars, all this mess, all the chaos n' death!!! which most of it is a result of western policy!!

N' yea, I don't really care about your freedom of speech, when your government and its allies in the free world are the main cause of all those problems and crimes, and on top of that supports the governments that don't give us freedom of speech..

You wanna know why there are extremists and radicals?

first, you need to understand that there are more than 6 main sects in islam, there are more than 1 billion ppl stretching from the african atlantic to south east asia, speaking tens of languages with different traditions n' backgrounds, we're not one people! We have nationalists, seculars, capitlaists, oppurtunists, leftists, communists, liberals.. you name it ; n' guess what, I happen to be secular!! so, shut up already, you're acting like a drama queen! bottom line: those two fucks cannot represent more than 1 billion people, or even an entire religion for that matter! not even 10,000 of those can't!! just do the math! they represent themselves n' their school of thought!

second, you need to read about Hempher the spy!

third, look at the ten points, n' tell me if that?s not a recipe for extremism, tell me why did terrorist attacks sky-rocket after 9/11? n' please don't tell me you believe bush's fairy tale (offical version) of 9/11!!?

fourth, just check who's the biggest support of all totalitarian systems in the world!! one example: who braught down the secular iranian elected government in the 50s?

here's somewhere you can get real news:
http://www.voltairenet.org/en

You need to gain more knowledge before you ask those silly questions!
Re: Insulting Islam is incompatible with tolerance, fighting racism, uniting people, n' moral priori
[info]mstamper wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 09:55 am (UTC)
Your reply practically oozes with intolerance, hatred and rage. I understand quite clearly that you do not care about my freedom of speech. Thank you once again for making my point - that Islam is incompatible with many fundamental human rights, including the right to free expression. This puts Islam in the same category as other totalitarian systems. We in the West have two choices. We can stand up and defend our freedoms, or we can capitulate to those who would bring civilization back to the 5th century. Evidently (as this discussion shows) there is no third solution.
Re: Insulting Islam is incompatible with tolerance, fighting racism, uniting people, n' moral priori
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 11:47 pm (UTC)
Your logic is really messed up. Its getting tedious and silly, again honestly, there's no reason on earth why I should worry about or care about your freedom of speech in England to insult Islam n'muslims, while there's not much freedom of thought and speech in your media n press when it comes to more urgent and critical subjects, and when we have tens of far more important and fatal issues (for example, children raped in Iraq by US soldiers, and hundreds of children killed in Gaza n' Lbabnon by Israeli soldiers) here in the middle east to worry about other than this silly nonsense, most of which are caused by the policies of the free world, and on top of that, it's the western countries that support totalitarian governments in the middle east that don?t give the basic human rights to the people, not to mention freedom of speech.

So, excuse me for not giving a damn about your right to generalize and insult me!
Mr. Milmo, please check your facts!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 11:27 am (UTC)
"They were engaged when she was six and married three years later."
This is not a fact, Mr. Milmo; it's really becoming ridiculous how western journalists keep mentioning this over n over again!!

1- This was narrated by a grand-nephew of Aicha who wasn?t alive at the time of the wedding.
2- He narrated it to a group of Iraqis who weren't even muslims at the time of the marriage and there are many questions regarding their credibility.
3- He was in his 70s, and he was paid to tell tales and stories about early Islam.
4- He was wrong about Fatima's age (Mohammed's daughter) when she got married as well.
5- All historical information about Aicha, being able to sense things and remember them when Mohammed first got his message many years prior to leaving to Madina, means that she was at least 17-26

There are many more clues and It's sad that some muslims believe this story and take it as a fact, without doing any research! And seeing how it's been used over and over again to vilify a religion with its 1 billion followers.
Some sense please!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 11:43 am (UTC)

1- It is a crime punishable by jail if you question or attempt to review the western-Israeli account of the holocaust.
2- A French comedian was banned after making a stand up joke about a rabbi.
3- Many French journalists lost their jobs for criticizing Israel.
4- American professors, including Jewish scholars are facing anti-Semitism accusations, and some are losing their jobs for criticizing Israel?s massacre in Gaza.

There are hundreds many more violations of freedom when expressing an opinion about an event that was used as a pretext for the creation of the occupying state of Israel, and even criticizing its actions in the past 60 years.
What is more important, just bashing a religion, condemning it as evil, insulting its 1 billion followers, by creating silly imaginary scenarios, or talking and discussing our current affairs, the cancer that's the middle east crisis, that keeps feeding on this unlimited unquestionable western support? Or freedom and liberty is best exercised when attacking a religion, whose followers are already feeling targeted in various places around the world? Has it become anti-semetic to review recent history, or condemning a state that was based on terrorism, expulsion, and theft, after killing 1300 people in 3 weeks and destroying tens of thousands of houses, leaving them in tents for 6 months trying to build new houses out of mud! What is more pressing as an issue, trying to secure our world, eliminating conflict and extremism, or try to feed it with this silly nonsense?
Re: Some sense please!
[info]mstamper wrote:
Saturday, 16 May 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC)
I certainly would not support making Holocaust denial a crime. I have been called a Judeophobe by some readers of this newspaper for supporting the freedom to deny the Holocaust. One should be free to bash a religion (verbally not physically). One should be free to insult the followers of a religion (verbally). If you do not have that freedom, you have no freedom. Without freedom of conscience, or the freedom to speak or publish your opinion without fear of violent retribution, you are a slave. You have the right to disagree with the opinions of others; you do not have the right to kill them. Until Muslims recognize that freedom of speech (include the right to criticize Islam) is a fundamental human right, they should leave Western countries and return to the totalitarian Islamic Republics they came from. No one has the moral (or legal) right to kill someone because they criticize your religion. Why is that such a difficult concept for Muslims?
Re: Some sense please!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 05:52 am (UTC)
"One should be free to insult the followers of a religion (verbally). "

I don't know if you do realize it, but this is some sort of racism, that starts verbally, n' ends up ugly.

"If you do not have that freedom, you have no freedom."

It's sad if this is your idea of freedom?

"you are a slave. "

it's deffinately not this reason your a slave!!

"Until Muslims recognize that freedom of speech (include the right to criticize Islam) is a fundamental human right, they should leave Western countries and return to the totalitarian Islamic Republics they came from."

Why don't I see the same criticism and mockery against judiaism?

until your culture becomes fair when treating all religions, then, you have the right to ask them to leave!

And until your country and other western countries stop stikcing their nose everywhere where muslims are, until they compensate those countries they colonised n' sucked up their resources for every penny stolen, n' every soul taken, then, you have the right to ask them to leave!!

"No one has the moral (or legal) right to kill someone because they criticize your religion. "

N' you dont have the logic or the right to stereotype, n' broadcast what those two stupid people did to include all muslims, like I don't have the right, to stereotype, n' broadcast Bush, Blair, n' Olmert's crimes to you, all of your family, all englishmen, or all europeans!!
Re: Some sense please!
[info]mstamper wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 11:19 am (UTC)
Religion is a belief system. It is not racist to criticize someone's beliefs. Race and ethnicity are not chosen. Beliefs are chosen, and beliefs can be changed. Yes, if you don't have the freedom to say controversial or unpopular things, you don't have any freedom. In a totalitarian (or slave) society, everyone has the freedom to agree with the authorities. It is the freedom to disagree that matters.

Why don't you see criticism and mockery directed against Judaism? Well, I've seen plenty. Perhaps we just don't travel in the same circles. I would, however, support your right to criticize or make fun of Judaism or any other religion. That is what freedom is all about. However, you can't have it unless you are willing to extend it to all.
Re: Some sense please!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 06:21 am (UTC)
But you're attacking muslims as a whole as if they were one homogenous people! can we safely say that all christians have the same exact belief system? Can we accuse Christianity, as a religion, or Jesus for the crusades or the inquisition?

And i didn't say racism, I said, some sort of, you wanna call it, discrimination, prejudice, intolerance, hate.. whatever you want!

" Why don't you see criticism and mockery directed against Judaism? Well, I've seen plenty. "

tell me where? guide me?

there's been a systematic attack on Islam for the past 8 years in a way that its getting out of hand, to an extent that unknown petty writers are writing fairy sexual tales about Mohammed. You don't see any attack against Judaism, or Hinduism or other religions, although, there are far more negative aspects in some religions than there are in Islam. I never seen or read a discussion on tv or mainstream media about the violent verses of the old testament, although they are used to kill Palestinians; I don't see or read an assessment of the Jewish book of law "The Talmud" either, although its full of controversial stuff! Let alone, mockery and making fun! its not those terrorists or small crooks who are limiting your freedom of speech! Its the people who own the media and the money, the lobbies, and the politicions who are limiting your freedom of speech n' thought as well!

Personally, I have no problem discussing religious matters rationally, reasonably, intelligently and respectably, so as many muslims; I have something against mockery, insulting n' attacking for the sake of it, coz that only creates hatred, n' could lead to extremism in all sides.. I won?t kill someone who does that, I?ll just despise them, n' consider them silly ppl with no respect or sensitivity to other people, n' not much intelligence.. mockery n' suspicion of jewish people in europe led to antisemetism, although jews are not one racial entity! n' eventually, that led to mass murder n' expulsion n' we, in the middle east, inherited those deeds, n' the result, the arab/israeli conflict.. let's learn from history! I am with being constructive, not destructive, I am with the overall good.. freedom of speech is like anything in this world, could be used for good or bad..
Re: Some sense please!
[info]mstamper wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 10:16 am (UTC)
Glad to hear that you won't kill someone because they criticize your faith. That's progress.

As to the persecution of the Jews, an encyclopedia wouldn't be large enough to hold this history. I'm not qualified to speak to this, although I do recommend Daniel Goldhagen's books ("Hitler's Willing Executioners, A moral Reckoning, etc.) which I have read.

Yes, I agree that the Israelis use the Talmud to justify vicious attacks against Palestinians. It sickens me.

Regarding Christians and the Crusades and the Inquisition, I would definitely say that the crimes committed by Christians in the name of Jesus would also fill an encyclopedia.

At this point in history, religions other than Islam have learned to accommodate secular society, civil law, and civil rights. They don't demand total power anymore. Perhaps one day Islam will learn to separate church from state, and this discussion will be moot.
Re: Some sense please!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 11:41 pm (UTC)
Don't twist my words, I never, in our entire discussion endorsed that sort of behavior; as a matter of fact, it gives those meaningless and silly publications more publication and I think it only adds more to this rapidly spreading Islamophobia, and deliberate and systematic attack on Islam n mulsims!
And Hitler wasn't the first to kill Jews; Jews were killed in England and other places in Europe hundreds of years before Hitler; and I never asked for a discussion about the cursades and the inquesition, it was a simple example, so, maybe, just, maybe, you'd get my point after all I I've written.
Let me rephrase my position for you, which you don't seem to understand, I'll break it down using logic:

1-When 2, 3, 10, 100 or 1000 or even more people comitt a crime, or have some sort of behavior, it doesn't mean that other people who follow the same religion are the same, in this case, they happen to be more than 1 billion.
2-When a group, a sect, a government that endorces some religion, uses it to comitt crimes, it doesn?t mean that the religion itself is foul, or should be condemned and faught as a whole. Another example, when a democratic, secular government invades another country in the name of democracy and freedom, it doesn't mean democracy, freedom and secularism are at fault, or incompatible with humanity, and should be faught as concepts.

You need to get out of this guilty by association, ignorent gerneralization, and stupid stereotyping mindset; this is the most dangerous weapon of mass destruction. If you don't get this by now, I'm sorry, you need to take an emergency course in logic and fallacies!

And Secular society? That's interesting, anyway, do you know that almost all arab countries and muslim ones (Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, ?. Etc) are secular and have secular laws! They might not be democratic though!

Only Saudi Arabia and Iran hold religion as their law, and both differ in the way they inrepret it. In the first case, it was your country that created and helped create that system, and in the latter, it was your country that supported dictatorship, stole the resources, and blocked democracy by force, till the islamic revolution took place!

And you say all religions have endorced and accomodated secular society? let's see

Israel was established on a 3000 year old biblical promise, and all crimes are carried out in that name, and supported by the "secular" west. Only Jews are allowed to migrate to Israel, and arabs (christian, n' muslim) are being discriminated against, and driven out. And Israeli comedy sketches show Jesus as a fat dumb kid, whose mom is a filthy whore, and Mohammed as a criminal and dumb arab terrorist, but would never show anything that would make fun of judiaism. So, should I clap my hands for their freedom of speech in Israel, and its "secular" supporters in the west??

America's most powerful lobbies are religious (zionist evangalical, n'zionist jewish), and when congressmen and senators say supporting Israel is a matter of following god's words, that really doesn't leave much room for secularism, let alone reason, does it?

France banns women from wearing a scarf; isn't that holding and restricitng people's liberties and rights to at least wear what they want??

If you really want to convince me that Islam and muslims are restricting your freedom of speech, and are turning you to a slave, and hence, you should fight them and kick them out, because they're the only obstacle for you to reach your freedom, and drawing Mohammed as a terrorist is a mere exersice of freedom, and not an implication that all followers of Mohammed are terrorists,
then, go ahead and write an article about the Talmud, the old testiment, critizing the violence, explicit pedophilia, criminal intent, and hate in those books and publish it in a newpaper, or draw a picture of Moses in an Israeli airplane throwing cluster white-phosphourus bombs on civilians, or you know what, just do a research about the holucost denying the truthfullness of the official Israeli-western version, and since muslims are the only obstacle to secular free society, this should be an easy task!

Re: Some sense please!
[info]mstamper wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:07 am (UTC)
There is ample evidence that Islam and Muslims living in the West are restricting freedom of speech. Not explicitly (yet) through the law, but through violence, intimidation, and outright murder. Examples abound: Salmon Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh, Taslima Nasrin, Geert Wilders, the 12 Danish cartoonists, Brigitte Bardot, and many others. Why must they be murdered (or live in seclusion and in fear) because they expressed views critical of your faith? You keep changing the subject, referencing crimes committed by others, as if those crimes give you carte blanche to commit the same kinds of crimes.

I think that what you want from the West is capitulation and submission. If you remember the subject at hand ("The Jewel of Medina"), it is interesting to note that the book's original publisher (Random House) capitulated to Islamic terrorism by abandoning the book even after paying the author a sizable advance. This did not happen years earlier when prominent publishers stood behind Salmon Rushdie and published "The Satanic Verses". The firebombing of the current publisher (Gibson House) is designed to silence prospective critics of Islam. Soon no one will publish books like these, and the terrorists will have won again. That virtually no Muslims have publicly defended the rights of the author and publisher makes Islam itself complicit in these crimes. All of this underscores my original point regarding the incompatibility of Islam with the West. Your angry responses have confirmed this far better than anything I may have said.
Re: Some sense please!
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 05:21 am (UTC)
Again I dare you to write an article about the Talmud, the old testament, criticizing the violence, explicit pedophilia, criminal intent, and hate in those books and publish it in a newspaper, or draw a picture of Moses in an Israeli airplane throwing cluster white-phosphorus bombs on civilians, or you know what, just do a research about the holocaust denying the truthfulness of the official Israeli-western version, and since muslims are the only obstacle to secular free society, this should be an easy task!

"There is ample evidence that Islam and Muslims living in the West are restricting freedom of speech."

How many? Who are they? There are probably more than 6 or 8 million muslims in the west; how can you come up with that stupid generalization? What are the reasons for these acts? What are the political n' historical reasons behind it? What is the geo-political status of the muslim world, what are the challenges they're facing? What are the social reasons? Is Islam way more targeted than other religions and is that fair? Are countries that happened to be muslim targeted or been targeted before by the west? What is the source of Islamic radicalism and violence, who funded it n? fed that over n' over again directly n' indirectly? What sect do those people belong to? What kind of countries n' culture those people come from? What does this cycle of insults on an entire religion, and physical insults on the writers do? Yes, create islamophobic people like you, who want to deport muslims, n' create this civilization clash, in which you are the live manifestation of; you're no better than those crazy radicals!

Of course, it is easy for you to say Islam and Muslims are the disease,and I'm incompatible with tolerance along with 1 billion other muslims (1/5th of the world's population), because I'm simply muslim, putting a label on me; it's really easy to say that and it spares you the responsibility to dig deeper, and exercise your brain, to think rationally n' analytically which is apparently a hassle for someone like you. My angry response as you call it, is not because I am muslim, n' hence, am not compatible with you; I told you way back, that I'm secular, not religious at all, n' I said explicitly that I'm against those acts, but you seem too thick, too stubborn, or just hate muslims too much to understand, your reason has nothing to do with reason n' you seem incapable of critical thinking, and you didn't answer any of my points or questions throughout our discussion! You just went on n' on, repeating yourself, n' repeating your meaningless, baseless, n unscientific insults. I should?ve known better not to engage in a discussion with you, coz your first post said it all about your personality n' your Islamophobia.. Don't bother replying, I?m not typing back, your reason, logic n' knowledge is too inferior to me.. n' this is not because I'm muslim!! I learnt a lot of what I know from western philosophers n' books, in which you may use some to deal with your bigotry and perhaps widen your very narrow mind!
Muslims and the freedom of speech?
[info]souepi wrote:
Sunday, 17 May 2009 at 03:08 pm (UTC)
That'll be the day! Oh, they're for freedom of speech allright, but not when it gets OFFENSIVE.
If we let their still medieval mind-set rule, say goodbye to writers/artists pushing the boundaries of creativity for a start.
In defense of Mohammed
[info]kuma2000 wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 10:47 am (UTC)
He may have been a kiddy fiddler but hundreds of thousands of people are queueing up to see Wacko Jacko sing. Mohammed is sort of a 7th Century Michael Jackson.
Re: In defense of Mohammed
[info]xyza11111111111 wrote:
Sunday, 31 May 2009 at 03:49 pm (UTC)
and why don't we see this great western freedom of speech about Holocaust or Israeli crimes?
why it is banned by laws to make any research in holocaust
why anyone just say Israel is immediately accused of antisemitism

it's just question searching for answers.

Re: In defense of Mohammed
[info]kuma2000 wrote:
Sunday, 31 May 2009 at 10:49 pm (UTC)
I'd say its because they have more money than Muslims, but there are some pretty rich Sheiks in the Muslim world...

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