San Fermin, Ellis Ludwig-Leone interview: 'I was in a destructive place when I wrote Jackrabbit'

'There was a little bit of a Frankenstein thing that happened...'

(Press image/San Fermin)

Hunted animals are a recurring theme for San Fermin. Following on from the band’s self-titled debut referring to the running of the bulls in Pamplona, a follow-up, Jackrabbit, continues to explore notions of fleeting lives, quick deaths and high stakes.

Ellis Ludwig-Leone, the artist behind the band, is explaining how these themes grew subconsciously, ahead of a performance by the eight-piece at the Jazz Cafe in London.

"I think at some point Allen (Tate) says at the end of the record it's always been life or death to me. My relationship with music is to play out notions that have pent up, so the stakes get kind of high. Maybe that’ll change but at the moment I wanted to have something people will listen to and really think about."

Expressive, charming and charismatic, the Massachusetts-born, Brooklyn-based composer has an impressive number of projects under his belt. Alongside his work with San Fermin, this year he was named Composer-In-Residence for the Alabama Symphony, and is currently working on a piece for the New York City ballet.

While the structure of San Fermin's songs has remained the same – Ludwig-Leone providing lyrics and instrumentation – he has found himself composing for the individuals who will play his music rather than fictional characters.

"It's easier in that you know what they can do," he says of his bandmates. "The harder part is then you have to show [your work] to these people whose opinion you really care about.

"It's kind of nerve-wracking… but it’s also much more customised. And then we’ll have rehearsals with the band once those songs are recorded and change things around. There’s much more freedom in the live show."

San Fermin vocalists Charlene Kaye, left, and Allen Tate http://www.sebbarros.com/music/ (Sebastian Barros / https://instagram.com/sebbarros/)

This transition to a bigger, live sound is completely evident in the second LP. San Fermin’s debut opened with 'Renaissance!' and Allen Tate's low, lonely vocals, but Jackrabbit misleads the listener before throwing them in at the deep end.Merging classical with contemporary was an idea which came as he was studying music composition at Yale University, and has proven enormously successful for bands such as Clean Bandit, whose single 'Rather Be' peaked at number 10 on the Billboard Hot 100, won a Grammy for Best Dance Recording this year, and racked up over 260 million views on YouTube.

Ludwig-Leone jokes that perhaps he "can't write quite as good of a pop song" as the British group. Yet this notion is less likely to be true than the fact that the 25-year-old’s compositions are far more elaborate and complex than the violin-cello combo heard in Clean Bandit’s infectious tunes.

More than competent when it comes to testing new sounds and challenging the listener, Ludwig-Leone’s compositions might not be suited for breaking into the charts just yet (although 'Jackrabbit' is currently one of the top 50 viral US hits on Spotify), but it's likely that the band and the way they progress will be all the better for it.

"It doesn't matter. I should say, I would love it if everyone loved the music I love, and there’s a lot of great concert, classical music out there.

"But what I’m trying to do is write songs that feel honest to my experience. I'm not on any sort of crusade to get the youth into classical. If that's your beginning goal you’re going to make bad music."

Cover art for Jackrabbit

Since Blur frontman Damon Albarn announced that the "selfie-generation" of younger musicians are too wrapped up in themselves to bother with the world around them, debate about the engagement, or lack thereof, of young people in politics has only increased as the UK election looms.

Speaking with some regret at his own lack of political engagement, Ludwig-Leone nevertheless grins as he asks what was with "all that coverage of your politician eating the sandwich" then looks embarrassed as he mentions being in England watching the Bush administration unfold.

"At the mid-term elections in America we were on tour and I think half of us didn't even do an absentee ballot, which is terrible. Certainly one of the criticisms I have of myself right now is that I definitely am a little bit in my own bubble.

"There are a lot of people at this stage of life who are focused on themselves and maybe that’s a bad thing, but then I have a lot of friends who are out doing much more helpful things than I am."

The Village Voice wrote a review of a recent San Fermin gig, calling them the new "It band" and comparing them favourably to Arcade Fire, as the latter emerged successfully from a wave of hype in 2004.

(Press image/San Fermin)

Ludwig-Leone says that he tries not to put too much stock into criticism, but one recurring comment seems to frustrate both him and his lead male vocalist, Allen Tate, who has been inundated by comparisons to Matt Berninger of The National.

"On the first record there were some songs on there that really owed a lot to that band, they’re one of my favourites. For this record I’ve tried to write differently, but people hear that low voice and it’s ingrained in people’s minds. On the one hand it’s always going to be flattering but on the other… [He tails off.]

"It’s something I have to consider. If people aren't able to access the music as it should be then you need to adapt to that. But," he concedes, "it's a lot better for me to be compared to artists I love than ones I don't like."

Mentioning Sufjan Stevens – an artist Ludwig-Leone has previously cited as a favourite and one he has been frequently compared to – proves this statement as he rolls his eyes in rapture and beams.

"Sufjan. OhmyGod it’s [Carrie & Lowell ] so good, I can’t even talk about it, it's too good. It almost ruins your day, it’s so sad and beautiful."

Ludwig-Leone's own album was, in a way, born before San Fermin, as he was writing material while the band’s first record was put together.

"There was this weird lag where I wrote San Fermin and we got picked up by the record label, then during that time I had to do some writing and I came up with the idea [for Jackrabbit] and wrote about half of it.

"Then we went on tour for a year and the songs just sat there. There was a little bit of a Frankenstein thing that happened where I ripped a bit out of the middle, rethought the lyrics..."

"For the first record I think I really needed characters, it was weird to be writing for voices like… who are these people? For this record it was less of that, I knew who the singers were and I’d written enough songs that I didn’t feel like a total nube."

Tate and female lead vocalist Charlene Kaye split the vocals pretty much 50/50 on Jackrabbit, and the result is a vibrant range of emotions - elation, fear, love, and often a kind of violence - that lift the listener up before dragging them down to darker depths.

"I think this record I let him (Tate) get a little angrier, and a bit more dangerous," Ludwig-Leone says. "I tried to push him towards emotional extremes. There are some songs where he actually sounds kind of creepy, and that was definitely something that needed to happen in order to expand the emotional possibilities.

"For Charlene… as I've written for these singers I think my relationship with the female voice has altered, and actually my understanding of the opposite gender has changed a lot.

"When I finished the first record I was just out of college and there was a certain two-dimensional style to how I wrote. It was like one big idea and then the opposite.

"As I've continued writing I've tried to complicate things, so there are points where Charlene can be really sarcastic and others where she’s more vulnerable."

Ellis Ludwig-Leone on Charlene Kaye: 'My relationship with the female voice has altered a lot' http://www.sebbarros.com/music/ (Sebastian Barros / https://instagram.com/sebbarros/)

Several of the songs on Jackrabbit come across like tantrums; fleeting and with abrupt endings. It can be a disturbing experience, and Ludwig-Leone admits that he wanted to be rougher with the listener, and rougher with himself.

"I was in a destructive place for part of writing this record and I tried to utilise that to get more from the songs. They don’t sit the listener down gently. With 'Casanova' (San Fermin)… we’ve had people propose to that song. At every show there’s some couple making out, and I find myself kind of frustrated by how pretty and lush the first record was.

"I think I was trying to make a statement about life or whatever, and for this one it was more like an 'is that all there is?' quality to it.

"I wanted it to do more for me, to pull the songs apart. There was almost a dissection of some of it, and there are moments in the songs where it all crashes in….

"I think that came from that destructive impulse. It's been interesting to see how people react to it, because not everyone wants to be taken there."

San Fermin's album Jackrabbit is out now on Downtown Records/Sony RED. They play the Hope in Brighton on Tuesday 5 May