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Should all boys be circumcised?

New evidence suggests removal of the foreskin can protect not just against HIV, but other diseases that kill millions. Now some doctors are reconsidering their views on an ancient and controversial procedure

By Jeremy Laurance

Sharp practice: boys being circumcised in Iraq

Getty

Sharp practice: boys being circumcised in Iraq

If you were the parent of a baby boy and were told a minor operation could provide him with protection against three diseases (at least) that kill millions worldwide, would you be interested? It is safe to assume that you would. When, however, you discovered that the operation in question was circumcision, would your enthusiasm dwindle?

Circumcision is the world's most common surgical procedure. But it is also among the most sensitive – politically, culturally and ethically. Even within the scientific community it is difficult to have a reasoned debate about the pros and cons, examining the evidence, without people taking sides. For several decades, the medical community has kept quiet about circumcision, mindful of the sensitivities around it. Doctors are broadly agreed that the operation is "not medically necessary" – except in a tiny minority of cases, for example where the foreskin will not retract. They say it is for parents and the public to decide about the ethics of circumcision for religious or other non-medical reasons.

Now that cosy consensus has been challenged by the emergence of evidence showing that the removal of the foreskin can prevent a number of sexually transmitted diseases. Three landmark randomised controlled trials conducted in South Africa, Kenya and Uganda between 2005 and 2007 demonstrated that adult male circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 50 to 60 per cent. This is well known and has led to the development of programmes offering circumcision in a number of African countries, backed by the World Health Organisation, with predictions that in the long term it could save millions of lives.

Now new evidence has emerged for the protective effect of circumcision against infection with Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), the chief cause of cervical cancer in women, which is reduced by 35 per cent, and against Herpes Simplex Virus (HSV), the cause of herpes, which is reduced by 25 per cent. Circumcision probably also protects against syphilis, but the findings, published in the New England Journal of Medicine in March, were based on too small a sample to be conclusive.

Both HPV and HSV are global health problems that far outstrip HIV in frequency, causing substantial death and suffering. Cervical cancer is responsible for thousands of deaths in western countries (and millions in the developing world). Herpes is seldom fatal, but it causes significant illness and costs millions of pounds to treat.

An editorial in the NEJM said that the findings were "a call to action for professional societies" to review the advice they give on circumcision. Two countries – the US and Australia – have already heeded the call. The American Academy of Paediatrics has established a taskforce to examine its policy on circumcision and a similar review is under way in Australia.

Susan Blank, chair of the US task force and a paediatrician with the New York City health department, says: "In the last few years a lot of data has come out that needs to be evaluated and policy developed. It is true that the data are compelling. Our task is to look at it in the context of our domestic situation. There are a lot of emotional overlays that go along with issues of babies and child health." Dr Blank says circumcision has been declining in some states in the US but the overall prevalence, at 65 per cent, remains high compared with the UK.

In the UK rates are much lower and have been falling for decades. They stand currently at 16 per cent, according to the Health Protection Agency (HPA). But the UK Royal College of Paediatrics has no plans to follow its sister organisations in the US and Australia by setting up a taskforce to review the evidence.

Professor Terence Stephenson, president, says HIV is uncommon in the UK and there is little heterosexual transmission within the country, and no evidence that circumcision is protective in men who have sex with men. There is a vaccine available against cervical cancer currently being rolled out in a national campaign, which is expected to significantly reduce the toll from that disease and the incidence of herpes in the UK is substantially lower than in the US. "As a public health measure, I doubt if the college or the Department of Health would be pressing hard for the introduction of neonatal circumcision. To carry out 300,000 a year in the UK on the NHS [the annual number of male births] would be a huge cost – money which could be used for other things." If a parent asked for information about the benefits of circumcision, he would spell them out, he says. But there are drawbacks, too, including the discomfort caused by the procedure, the need for antibiotics and, rarely, complications such as bleeding.

Barry Evans, consultant epidemiologist and specialist in sexually transmitted infections at the HPA says the value of circumcision as a defence against HIV in Africa is well established. "It is fantastic and has a real possibility of denting the Aids epidemic in Africa," he said. But in the West it is a different story. Debating the issue is difficult, however. There are entrenched views on both sides, he says . "Some people view it as tantamount to child abuse while others say that not to do it amounts to child neglect and that it should be regarded like vaccination. Very few say let's look at the evidence, weigh it up and decide if it is worthwhile."

There is a clear medical benefit to circumcision and if parents are considering the procedure for religious or other reasons, these should not be downplayed. But in terms of benefit to the population as a whole, the consensus in the UK is that efforts to increase the current rate would be hard to justify. It remains to be seen whether the US and Australia share that view.

Medical miracles: Historic cures

Leeches (Hirudotherapy): The first leech was used in 1000 B.C and in the mid 1800s were believed to cure any ailment, from colds to facial discolouring. The slug-like animal was placed on human skin as a way of draining blood congested areas in the body. Leeches are now used in micro-surgery for precision when draining wounds, as the anti-blood-clotting enzymes in their saliva allow an increased blood flow. The enzyme is part of drug trials where it is used as a preventive method for heart attacks and blood clots, but is yet to be used on humans .

Cupping: An Ancient Chinese and Arabic process that involves using fire to warm the air inside a glass cup placed over an inscision on the skin. As the air cools, a vacuum creates a suction force that relieves the blood-congested area. In modern Chinese medicine cupping is used as an alternative therapy to clear the five meridian channels through which the body's life energy flows, removing toxins and promoting relaxation.

Trepanation: One of the oldest medical procedures, dating back to the prehistoric Neolithic era around 9500 BC. A hole was drilled into the conscious skull of a patient as a way of curing headaches that were thought to be caused by evil spirits. The technique is now used for the relief of subdural haematomas in neurosurgical procedures under anesthesia.

Maggots: Although visually gruesome, the use of flesh eating maggots has re-emerged as a cost-effective way of combating the new strains of "superbugs" such as MRSA that have become immune to our antibiotics. Maggots devour the rotting flesh of patients and can be used to clean severe wounds caused by these diseases.

The kindest cut?

* The earliest Egyptian mummies (1300 BC) were circumcised.

* The word derives from the Latin circum ("around") and cædere ("to cut").

* Early circumsicion was a sacrificial religious practice.

* 30 per cent of males are circumcised in the world, but the operation is mainly performed for religious and cultural purposes rather than for medical reasons.

* A Gomco clamp, Plastibell, and Mogen clamp are used to circumcise infants.

* Adult operations are done without clamps and sexual activity cannot resume for four to six weeks.

* Risks are generally rare but include infection, damage to the urethra and a loss of sexual sensation in the penis.

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Comments

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loss of sexual sensation in the penis.
[info]laconico wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 11:31 pm (UTC)
It stands to reason that this happens in ALL cases. No scientific comparison can be made because it's too late for all those concerned to compare their sexual experience with what they would have had with a real and complete penis.

Don't believe the mediaeval weirdos. Most of the people espousing mutilation think sex is the devils work yet they are messing with the natural design of their bodies which they paradoxically believe to be god's work.

Sex is great. There is no devil or god and it's safe to eat pork now also.
Enjoy
An incredible typo
[info]anthrolarry wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 11:59 pm (UTC)
"230 per cent of males are circumcised in the world" haha!
Re: An incredible typo - [info]solcreciente - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: An incredible typo - [info]efforce - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]solcreciente - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]edjzet - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:26 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]solcreciente - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:37 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]laconico - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:22 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]solcreciente - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:40 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]jackno1 - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]solcreciente - Sunday, 24 May 2009 at 11:03 am (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]bemjammin - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]ligeia_bm - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: loss of sexual sensation in the penis. - [info]laconico - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Why not wash???
[info]hcurtiss wrote:
Monday, 18 May 2009 at 11:55 pm (UTC)
Surely a totally unnecessary piece of surgery in a world with hot showers and soap! Teaching children to wash under foreskin can surely protect! The only advantage of being born a Christian rather than Jew or Muslim was that circumcision was not considered essential!

Oh! and in the final bulleted section you mention 230 per cent of males are cirmcumcised????
Re: Why not wash???
[info]corporeal4now wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:35 pm (UTC)

Incorrect about circumcision and christianity.
It wasnt Jesus who said it wasnt necessary - it was Paul, so that the religion would be easier for the Romans to assimulate it.
Fingers too!
[info]mrpogle wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:19 am (UTC)
As my children grow, I expect them to get dirty hands and fingernails possibly leading to infection. I therefore intend to chop their hands off at birth.
Re: Fingers too!
[info]theelectrician wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:09 am (UTC)
Don't forget to sew their lips together to remove the risk of them kissing anybody.
Re: Fingers too! - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:36 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Fingers too! - [info]laconico - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:25 am (UTC) Expand
Rate is 56%, not 65%
[info]carolinew6462 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:24 am (UTC)
How can Susan Blank speak about this when she doesn't even know the correct rate?
Re: Rate is 56%, not 65%
[info]imperialechoes wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:12 am (UTC)
It may be 56% in the western states but more like 80%in the North. And besides it was 90% right up until the 1980s, In the UK circumcision was made popular in the 1890s statistics show that in the 1930s, 60% of public school boys were circumcised and about 33% of state school boys were circumcised. The circumcision rate dropped dramatically in 1949 to 1%. About 22% of UK men are circumcised for medical or relgious reasons but normally takes place in childhood or early teens.
Re: Rate is 56%, not 65% - [info]carolinew6462 - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 05:01 pm (UTC) Expand
The Research is Fraudulent
[info]frank_ohara wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:23 am (UTC)
The research finding male circumcision protective is purely fraudulent.

We can accurately predict the outcome of an intervention with "X" efficiency based on previous interventions. For instance, the polio vaccine. The African male circumcision trials claim a protective factor of 61%. The polio vaccine is 70% effective in immunizing the patient against the polio virus. With this protective factor, the polio virus was eliminated from the populace in a single generation. This is with a virus that is highly communicable and can be transmitted by simple casual contact. In contrast, the HIV virus is relatively difficult to transmit.

The United States has both the highest male circumcision rate (80% to 85%) of the industrialized nations and the highest HIV infection rate. If circumcision had any significant protective factor, this infection rate would not be possible and The US would have a negligible infection rate if any infection at all. An intervention with a 60% protective factor would sufficiently break the vectors of transmission that the virus would run into constant roadblocks. The infection rate would be similar to ebola and other rare diseases.

The same is true with HPV. It is estimated that 70% of Americans have been infected with HPV. If male circumcision were effective in interviening in this epidemic, there would have never been an epidemic in the first place and the infection would be virtually unknown. The same is true of herpes and any other infection that has been claimed to be affected by male circumcision.

The main participants in these fraudulent studies are Robert Bailey, a professor of epidemology at The University of Chicago and Daniel Halperin (Jewish). With his professional education, Bailey obviously knows that male circumcision has had no effect in stemming the infection. Both Bailey and Halperin are on the public record as being circumcision proponents for more than 25 years. Typically, research such as this is announced with a round of press releases and after that, it is considered unacceptable to further promote it. Bailey et. al. has been promoting his research with a constant barage of press releases for more than 5 years currently. It appears that it was becoming old news and he has worked with others to concoct further fraudulent research so that his media campaign can continue as new. Apparently, this campaign is fueled by their desire to turn the rapidly declining newborn circumcision rate around.

.
Re: The Research is Fraudulent
[info]laconico wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:30 am (UTC)
excellent frank.
Surely a major newspaper should be aware of this.

I try to only read Johann Hari as he is the only journo that seems worth believing
Re: The Research is Fraudulent - [info]frank_ohara - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:20 am (UTC) Expand
Re: The Research is Fraudulent - [info]sickofstupidity - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Research is Fraudulent - [info]frank_ohara - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 05:28 am (UTC) Expand
[info]penny75 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:28 am (UTC)
I can't speak about those in Africa, I live in the US. However, my brother is HIV+ and he is circumcised. I also was given HPV years ago by a boyfriend who was circumcised. My message is two-fold: 1) - a foreskin isn't the culprit in many cases of STD's in the US. So widespread circumcision will not reduce the transmission of std's. 2) - Condom use should be used each and every time without fail. That is the only true way to prevent transmission of diseases. I had a much easier time - my problem could be treated. I wish I could say the same for my brother.
Should all boys be circumcised?
[info]oskafelix wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 05:57 am (UTC)
Your article by Jeremy Laurance claims that "230 per cent of males are circumcised in the world".

Surely this % is incorrect!

adult decision
[info]johncmullen1960 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:12 am (UTC)
This kind of operation could be proposed, if the research shows it is useful, to males old enough to decide for themselves only.
Rights of the child?
[info]leonore35 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:13 am (UTC)
I thought we were all about the rights of the child these days. Is a baby able to make this decision?
It is one thing to volunteer for this uneccessary and irreversible operation when mature but quite another to have it imposed on one when helpless to stop it. Is it not child abuse?
Also the practitioners of female genital mutilation can sieze on this as a justification for their barbarous practices
All that is needed is soap and water and good personal hygiene, I rinse my penis as well as my hands everytime I use the toilet
Re: Rights of the child?
[info]imperialechoes wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:39 am (UTC)
The problem is that as many medical people many men dont maintain the level of hygiene which you do.
Re: Rights of the child? - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Rights of the child? - [info]monty_stalpiday - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Rights of the child? - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:42 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Rights of the child? - [info]td_seattle - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Rights of the child? - [info]imperialechoes - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 11:30 am (UTC) Expand
Poor English skills.
[info]20007857 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:14 am (UTC)
"A hole was drilled into the conscious skull" (funny and nonsensical)

"230 per cent of males are circumcised in the world"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Please take an English class before you write anymore nonsense.

But thanks for the entertainment :-)
circumcision
[info]celticwelshman wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:18 am (UTC)
"a minor operation could provide him with protection against three diseases (at least)"

There are other ways of avoiding these disease's as in; washing thoroughly; being careful about ones choice of sex partner; if one must sow wild oats, use protection; being responsible for ones actions.

Much of this thinking "Should all boys be circumcised?" is medieval and older. however, I have to agree that there are advantages in using this method of protection against disease in the present in some of the more isolated & lesser educated regions of the world..the implication of this statement being, this is how male circumcision came to be in the first place. Someone, at some point in antiquity put two and two together, from there, it was probably then connected to religion in an effort to make the act more compatible with an individuals natural aversion to having a "must do" doctrine forced upon them?. Just a thought.
Not so fast
[info]james_011 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:19 am (UTC)
Any review of circumcision policy by the American Academy of Paediaatrics or The Royal Australiasian College of Physicians (Paedriatrics and Child Health Division) must be consistent with the general principles of medicine (and the law) and not seek to make special exceptions in the case of the male foreskin.

In the absence of informed consent, medicine does not generally take the view that surgery to a heathy body part on a healthy person is ethical, whether for potential prophylaxix, social custom or cosmetic benefits (whether a parent consents or not).

The only logical and responsible outcome of any review is to recommend that the procedure be legally regulated and restricted to those very rare cases of demonstrated medical need, pending the individual reaching the age of legal consent.

Circumcision has no role in fighting the HIV/AIDS problem. Even if the 60% protective effect is to be believed, this benefit only applies to 0.05% of the population (Australian AIDS study). Proponents are fond of quoting the 60% potential benefit, but remember, we're talking about circumcising 2,000 baby boys so that 1 may enjoy a potential 60% benefit 20+ years down the track, when responsible bahaviour and safe sex provides virtually total protection. This is not medicine. This is pure madness.

The US circumcision and HIV/AIDS rates are kind of awkward for these 'researchers' too; the circumcision-is-beneficial argument can't even pass the most basic common sense test in their own country. No wonder they went to Africa! Be mindful also that the researchers involved (Bailey, Halperin etc.) are avid, long term propoenents of circumcision who have latched into HIV/AIDS. They're not long term HIV/AIDS researchers who have latched onto male circumcision. There is a big difference.

More broadly, notice also that the UTI argument is quietly slipping away after an Israeli study found cicumcision actually increased UTI infections in the neonatal period. Much higher staphlococcal infections in boys? Best not mention that one. Deaths? Yes, babies occassionaly die from being circumcised.

Readers should be aware of powerful self interests in attempting to portray circumcision as normal, as beneficial and as a parent's choice. Don't be fooled. There are a couple of major religions who are particularly keen to avoid the regulation of circumcision. Some in the medical community find they can supplement their income quite nicely through circumcision. Others have built an entire business model around the circumcision of young boys.

Readers should also be deeply suspicious when hearing of new research claiming of newly discovered benefits, especially then the value and function of the foreskin is completely overlooked and ethical questions regarding the imposition of a permanent body modification on a minor are simply ignored. The medical profession has a very sorry history in regard to the benefits of circumcision. HIV/AIDS is the latest, but it won't be the last.

I deeply resent my own (infant) circumcision. Many men do. I would urge parents to do their own research and to protect their sons for this destructive and totally unnecessary surgery.

Ref:
No Role for Circumcision
www.afao.org.au/library_docs/policy/Circumcision07.pdf

Medicalization of Circumcision
www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4unKTMpBGA
Re: Not so fast
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:01 am (UTC)
If the operation benefits 60% of those who contract these infections and isn't of great detriment to the lives of those who don't contract these infections, what's the problem exactly?

I would think there are possible complications in many, many different operations and procedures, so I don't see why this one is singled out in particular.

Why do you resent your own infact circumcision exactly?

I agree it isn't 100% necessary, but I don't see why those who make such a choice are penalised.

Re: Not so fast - [info]frank_ohara - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not so fast - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not so fast - [info]frank_ohara - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:58 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not so fast - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not so fast - [info]td_seattle - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not so fast - [info]frank_ohara - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 02:01 am (UTC) Expand
Rights of the child
[info]leonore35 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:26 am (UTC)
I thought we were all about the rights of the child these days. Is it a choice for the child? of course not, he cannot resist this unnecessary and irreversible surgery. It is one thing to volunteer when mature but quite another to have it forced on one as a baby. Surely child abuse. The foreskin is there to protect the head of the penis.
Also the practitioners of female genital mutilation will sieze upon this as a justification for their own barbarous customs.
All that is needed is soap and water and good personal hygiene. I rinse my penis as well as my hands every time I go to the toilet.
I have noted that many men doe not even wash their hands!
circumcision
[info]victormc wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:32 am (UTC)
Yes, you were right in the early part of your article, this subject brings out all the usual nutters. No chance of a sensible debate.
Please believe two things. 1. That the ancients knew a thing or two about cleanliness which a lot of this brigade still don't today amongst which is the reasons for not eating pork as it rots in the heat much faster than other meats (no fridges nor electricity kiddies) and very quickly (hours) breeds grubs. 2. Cervical cancer is almost unknown amongst Jewish women.
Over to you ranters.
Re: circumcision
[info]media_myths wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:38 am (UTC)
"over to you ranters"

Brilliant bit of critical deflection there!

A couple of points though,
1. The ancients didn't know a thing or two about cleanliness, hence plague and pestilence.

2. Your comments presume we're still living in the dark ages (you're right, we do have fridges and electricity now!)

3. Do you know what cervical cancer rates are among promiscuous jewish women and among other predominantly circumcised peoples such as North Africans and North Americans?

4. Because people have done something for thousands of years doesn't mean there aren't better ways of doing those same things, it's called progress.

Sorry for ranting!
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:05 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]victormc - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:00 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 12:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]victormc - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:30 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]media_myths - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]frank_ohara - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]victormc - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: circumcision - [info]frank_ohara - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:29 am (UTC) Expand
So genital mutilation is OK?
[info]hal057 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:36 am (UTC)
Is this an example of men failing to evolve? If having a foreskin is bad for you let nature do its job and remove it by natural selection.
Re: So genital mutilation is OK?
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:09 am (UTC)
The point isn't that having a foreskin is bad for you, but that not having one can have some hygienic benefits depending on your circumstances.

Similarly, a beetle with a mutation that has stripped it of the ability to develop wings may find this beneficial on a windy island, but may struggle in other environments and be selected against.

Perhaps the reason is that having or not having a foreskin doesn't have a big impact on mortality rates and that there isn't a genetic mutation that will cause the foreskin not to develop. Also, having the operation will not change the genes that code for foreskin growth, and thus will not pass on to offspring.
Not Protection
[info]theelectrician wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:58 am (UTC)
Circumcision does not provide protection against any diseases. What it does is reduce the area of thin mucosal skin around the head of the penis and hence it reduces the 'probability' of catching or passing on a disease in any single sexual act. (It also results in thickening of the skin on the head of the penis which has the same 'risk reduction' effect.)
The simple fact is that if you engage is risky sex practices, then eventually you or your partner will become infected with something. It may be that a circumcised man can 'get away with' risky sex for longer than he would otherwise, but eventually there will be an infection. Even then, this is only true for those infections that are carried by pathogens carried on the foreskin or that attack through the foreskin. For the woman, male circumcision offers no protection against pathogens carried in the semen.
The best course of action is to use a condom and to practice good simple personal hygiene. Soap is cheap and washing and drying twice a day is not difficult.
WTF
[info]trojan_horace wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC)
What does it say about the men who feel the need to inflict this knife wound on babies? Woah! Just leave my goddamn foreskin the hell alone and get therapy you weird creeps
An old chestnut
[info]jamesgilbey wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:17 am (UTC)
Just how often does this subject have to be revisited? The handful of men whom I have met who have had circumcision as adults all reported a lost of sensation when having sex. A small number of people need it to avoid discomfort during sexual activity or other medical problems. Surely nature generally knows best and personal hygiene resolves most problems.
Re: An old chestnut
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)
Maybe it's because they've had the operation as adults? Hard to really compare with those who had the operation as a child though.
Re: An old chestnut - [info]noodlemaz - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: An old chestnut - [info]imperialechoes - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 11:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: An old chestnut - [info]purewater09 - Thursday, 28 May 2009 at 03:15 pm (UTC) Expand
What Rubbish!
[info]edjzet wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:25 am (UTC)
"New evidence suggests removal of the foreskin can protect not just against HIV ..."

Removing the foreskin does not protect, personal hygene does. Perhaps circumcision helps with personal hygene, but so do water and soap, and good parenting of young boys. And if personal hygene is the problem, circumcision in primitive circumstances is positively life threatening, for which there is overwhelming evidence.

It's extremely unlikely that ancient people in the Middle East had any knowledge of HIV or any clue about what causes disease. Circumcision for religuous reasons has nothing to do with disease but everything with the taboo on masturbation and, implicitly, homosexuality. As every non-circumcised man will realise, it's simply much easier to "experiment" if the equipment is complete. All the rest is humbug.
Re: What Rubbish!
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:45 am (UTC)
What exactly does circumcision have to do with masturbation and homosexuality? It's hardly a preventative procedure for either of those outcomes.

I'd also have to take issue with the use of the word "primitive". What exactly defines primitive? If you look under "Medical Miracles" towards the end of the article, u see several procedures that many would label "primitive" but are actually effective.

Many who live "simpler" lives and do not live in the same range of "development" as other parts of the world hold knowledge that we don't, and even though they may not understand the deeper biological happenings, they understand the beneficial outcome.

It could possibly be argued that part of the problems in "primitive" circumstances have arisen from the intrusion of "advanced" civilizations.
Re: What Rubbish! - [info]edjzet - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What Rubbish! - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What Rubbish! - [info]edjzet - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What Rubbish! - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:35 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What Rubbish! - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC) Expand
get the nick in time
[info]brinksman wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:28 am (UTC)
Get the nick. Evidence suggests it is not just circumstantial and it removes a lot of dead weight!
www.millarcrime.com

Suggests and could and some
[info]eonymoriconum wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)
I would like to "suggest" it "could" be the general lack of hygiene and health care as well as cultural traditions which affect the health of individuals in Africa far more than chopping off bits of skin.

This is the problem when journalists write up scientific reports, they summaries the conclusions without studying the methodology of the research and the role of contributory factors.

"Some doctors are reconsidering..." Which doctors? (Pun intended) How many? How do you know? Have you carried out a survey? Have you Mr Laurance any idea about what you write?



230% !
[info]jaffgyp wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:40 am (UTC)
230% of males are circumcised in the world :WOW! - our % is bigger than any other planet's!
Genital mutilation
[info]ppinter wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:44 am (UTC)
If boys are to be genitally mutilated for statistical reasons surely a case can be made for female genital mutilation / plastic surgery remoulding to ensure these nasty viruses are not trapped.
Re: Genital mutilation
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:59 am (UTC)
Definitions of mutilate:

1. To physically harm as to impair use, notably by cutting off or otherwise disabling a vital part, such as a limb.

2. To destroy beyond recognition.

3. (figuratively) To render imperfect.

To which of these does male circumcision fall under?
Re: Genital mutilation - [info]alexjpsmiles - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:33 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Genital mutilation - [info]wer_wind_blows - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:44 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Genital mutilation - [info]noodlemaz - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:44 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]mrjohn01 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:55 am (UTC)
Exactly how does circumcision prevent the spread of HIV, HSV and HPV ? There are statements but no details.

Perhaps the men who were circumcised a more likely to be shy and traumatised so they get laid less, leading to lower infection rates.
circumcision and access to water
[info]achillois wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC)
I am not qualified to say whether or not circumcision is an effective deterrent against disease. However, it takes no qualifications of any kind to understand that any person who speaks of the ease of daily hygiene has never set foot outside the comfort zone of a highly developed society. It does make sense that circumcision would make daily hygiene easier for the billions who live in less developed countries and whose access to soap and a shower may be at best limited, but usually non-existent. Rather chauvinistic of all of you who base your argument on your obviously limited experience in the real world, far from such amenities, where finding drinking water is a problem, let alone enough water in which to luxuriate (in a bath or shower) each day.
Re: circumcision and access to water
[info]kasia_r wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 03:23 pm (UTC)
But, presumably, in less developed parts of the world it is equally difficult to gain access to teeth-cleaning facilities: should we pull people's teeth out in order to prevent the risk of unavoidable gum disease or mouth cancer as a result? The main argument, I agree, should NOT be about hygiene when it comes to the benefits and/or disadvantages of circumcision. The issue is first and foremost an ethical matter of bodily mutilation. In principle there is nothing wrong with the practice UNLESS it is carried out without consent; it is far too intimate and irreversible a procedure for the decision to be taken by the parent or guardian alone.
Re: circumcision and access to water - [info]imperialechoes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:53 pm (UTC) Expand
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