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Church of Scientology convicted of fraud

MARTIN BUREAU/AFP/Getty Images

French socialist MP Catherine Picard at the Paris court for the trial of the Church of Scientology French socialist MP Catherine Picard at the Paris court for the trial of the Church of Scientology

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US Scientology Department
[info]theelectrician wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 02:43 pm (UTC)
"Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the US State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations. "

I wonder why the US State Department are so supportive of a particular religion. I thought that the USA had clear separation of the state and religion.

Perhaps there are Scientologists in high places in the US State Department? Perhaps key US State Department officials attend Scientolgy organised conferences in the Bahamas? Who knows......

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This money stealing CULT should be illegal...
[info]freddyfresh wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 02:54 pm (UTC)
It's surprising how naive some people are, they will literally believe anything.
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Fraudulent Church of Scientology
[info]rsbarker wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 03:01 pm (UTC)
Fraud by a religion? I wonder if The Church of Scientology is the only religion or church guilty of such a crime.
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Re: Fraudulent Church of Scientology
[info]flacksteen wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 04:16 pm (UTC)
Fools and their money are soon parted. Nothing ever changes.
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Re: Fraudulent Church of Scientology
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 04:57 pm (UTC)
I know nothing about it and do not judge unless I do; I suppose people will "believe" any old thing;

most rational people look for proof of propositions in their own experience; some people " believe" so-called scientists while actually"knowing " nothing at all about science and without having any capacity for logical mentation, which would seem to call for an education and a critical mind
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[info]tyrell wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 04:28 pm (UTC)
The CIA classified Scientology exercises as "Brainwashing". The ~CIA~. They should know what they're talking about on that one.

It's a cult. Culty culty cult. They're welcome to sue me if they like, at which point I'll bring up as evidence all the practices and beliefs which mean it fails the various cult evaluators:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist.
Their "disconnection" policy is a classic, for starters.

Here's the only page you need on Scientology (exposing and debunking it thoroughly): http://www.xenu.net/
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[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:57 pm (UTC)
how do you define a cult?- are cults necessarily bad?

me I mindmy own business
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[info]tyrell wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:02 pm (UTC)
Depends on which system you want to use to define it, but the general idea is that it's a "New religious movement" (a concept I'm very okay with) which has harmful qualities. These often include demanding/controlling money, sex or power over the individual, forming an "us and them" mindset and cutting people off from loved ones if they're not also in it, having a single leader who is treated as infallible/wise and must be obeyed etc.

Ironically, most New Religious Movements such as modern Druidry or Wicca don't hit a single one of these. Catholicism fails all of it.
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[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:11 pm (UTC)
why should I care if people want to join anything?-it's none of my business
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[info]tyrell wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:16 pm (UTC)
*Shrug* Same reason you educate children not to play in bear-traps. It's a harmful organisation, and as people with a conscience we should be letting people know that. I don't mind that they want to believe in Xenu - but I'll speak up when the money-grabbing is this blatant. If someone reads my debunking-page link and is better informed when Scientologists ask them if they want to take a "personality test", then I've done a good thing.
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[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:26 pm (UTC)
I know nothing about it from my own actual experience hear a lot of hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle.

I never ever met a scientologist; it's none of my business what other people believe
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[info]0highersights0 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 11:02 pm (UTC)
In that case, perhaps you should meet some Scientologists, and learn more about it.

I know nothing about paedophillia from my own actual experience and hear a lot of hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle. Is it therefore none of my business? I know nothing about climate change from my own actual experience and hear a lot of hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle. Is it therefore none of my business? I know nothing about sex slavery from my own actual experience and hear a lot of hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle. Is it therefore none of my business?

What you describe as hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle, if you research it, turns out to be criminal convictions, coroners reports, legal affidavits, and, if many ruined lives and deaths (or are they hearsay/gossip/tittle-tattle too?).
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[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 11:22 pm (UTC)
in fairness to you your reductio about paedophilia makes sense. fact, there are such things as people who do vile sexual things to children; but I have not made a study of the subject; it is sufficient for me to know it happens for me to condemn the practice; but it is not a belief so you are not comparing like with like.


Equally I am not a climatologist, nor as scientist but it does seem to me that global warming is a belief and one to which many do not subscribe; i'm agnostic about it- since there is absolutely nothing that I can do about climate change , if any, it is still not my business , any more than the billion , billion things about which I can do absolutely and completely nothing; we live in a mechanistic world and what will happen will happen according to the laws of the mechanics which govern our level; I live in a world of sleeping machines of whom I am one; it's not fun, but is how it is, regardless of what I think, say, or do
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[info]0highersights0 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 October 2009 at 02:22 am (UTC)
I am comparing like with like. All of the issues to which I refer have associated beliefs, attitudes, behavioural intentions and actions/practices. Many paedophiles have a belief that it is OK to be sexually attracted to and to abuse children (like it was in the olden days with the Greeks etc, right?). This is how they deal with the cognitive dissonance. Then some of them act on these beleifs.

Similarly, Scientology is associated with certain beliefs (e.g. about the effects of contact with "Suppressive Persons" - "SPs", i.e. critics - accurate details are on Wikipedia), attitudes (e.g. "May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed" - an official Scientology policy previously called "Fair Game" - again see Wikipedia), and behavioural intentions and actions (to deprive of property, injure, trick, sue, lie to or destroy). All of these have happened.

So if I am a critic of Scientology, it IS my business what other people believe (but more to the point, how they act on those beliefs). I hope that explains the context.
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[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 October 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC)
ho hum; I was pondering the idea of a cult- it seems to me that a cult takes elements of a true teaching and some psychopath, wiseacres, twists and distorts it out of all recognition. paedophilia is not a belief system as I understand it- though no doubt they believe all sorts but it is NOT "a" belief. I'm "told " all sorts about scientologists whom I regard as nutters , but they are NOT my business nor are ever likely to be; live and let live, within reason I say. I need to save my inner energy for my own inner evolution
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Business not religion.
[info]asonberg wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 04:32 pm (UTC)
Scientology is just a business pretending to be a religion. A pyramid scheme and a dangerous cult. Why else would the Church Of Scientology in lawsuits against people publicising their doctrine use arguments such as copyright and trade secrets in order to suppress information about their beliefs? Even the founder is alleged to have said that in order to get rich he should start a religion.

Then you have the nonsense that if people are allowed to find out about all the information about Xenu before they are ready to hear it (ie paid hundreds of thousands of dollars/pounds to get to that stage) then they will get pneumonia and die. It would be hysterically funny if it wasn't so tragic.

I would write more but i am running late for my meeting with Xenu on the planet axargon. I better not be late or he may throw me in a volcano and detonate nuclear bombs.
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Madge and Tom
[info]freejez wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 05:47 pm (UTC)
Where is Madonna and Tom Cruise when you need them.....
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Church of Scientology convicted of fraud
[info]achmelchett wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:04 pm (UTC)
Har Ha!
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The French are right!
[info]cfinnie wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:07 pm (UTC)
Many years ago, my ex-husband joined the "church" of Scientology. He threatened to leave me if I did not as well. But when he pressured me to put our small son into what was basically an orphanage for the children of members, I left him--and Scientology--instead. Since he was working for Scientology, I was the only one making money. When he lost access to my earnings, they kicked him out too.

Many people I knew lost everything to these con artists: cars, homes, businesses, life savings, families, and more. It cost us thousands of dollars, our home and business as well. This story and the linked one about Martin Haggis just scratch the surface of the evil this organization does.

Because I refused to buy into their lies any longer, they labeled me a "suppressive person." This means that no Scientologist can associate with me on pain of their immortal soul. I assure you, that is quite all right with me! However, it meant that my then husband could no longer associate with the mother of his child. He was also prohibited from speaking to his parents, who had sided with me in the affair. He quickly rebelled as well, and later admitted that Scientology had only treated him well as long as he was bringing in money. They turned on him when that dried up. His family, however, continued to support him after he left. He said that showed him who his true friends were, despite their lies.

The French prosecutors are right. Scientology should be banned before they can harm more people and scam them out of their money.
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All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]evolvedape wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:20 pm (UTC)
Why limit "obsession with financial gain" to the Church of Scientology? Anyone noticed the magnificence of the Vatican? It's built from the pennies collected from ignorant peasants.

Remember, Christianity was a weird cult, as was Islam. Once a scam grows beyond a certain scale, it becomes a "respectable" religion.

All religions peddle salvation. And all are guilty of fraud.

So, this judgment is hypocritical, at best.
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Re: All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]asonberg wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:15 pm (UTC)
So, evolved ape, to follow your argument, how much does the Catholic church charge for people to take holy communion? When was the last time you heard of the Catholic Church going to court to stop a Protestant Christian denomination from printing a bible? When was the last time you heard of the Catholic Church telling their followers, for example, that they cant read the revelations chapter of the bible until they have paid the church hundreds of thousands of pounds and that if their followers read this chapter in a bible before paying, that they would likely die of penumonia?

Don't get me wrong, the Catholic Church has much about it that needs criticism. Ditto all branches of christianity and Islam and most other world religions. I think its rather silly to compare Scientology with any religion because it isn't one. Its a business.
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Re: All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]evolvedape wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:54 pm (UTC)
Well, all religions are business. They all peddle salvation, in way way or another, so that their upper management can enjoy good living, or power, or both.

The Bible asks for 10%, although in most developed countries, in today's heathen times, the faithful seem to give just under 3% of their income for "salvation." But in poorer countries, the percentage is considerably higher.

New religions are often more aggressive, because they need to grow and expand to survive in the faith marketplace.

I am not defending the scientologists, and I do believe that their methods are at least questionable.

But then, we have had fatwas and suicide bombings from Islam, Family Planning clinics attacks by Christians, and nutty settlers in (and outside) of Israel. And let's not forget what the Catholic Church did to John Hus, for the mere possession of a non-Latin Bible....
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Re: All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]asonberg wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 09:41 pm (UTC)
Very good points. Agreed with most of them. Even going back to the start of the reformation there was controversy about the offering of indulgences for sale by the catholic church. This is one of the things thought to have originally motivated Martin Luther to start along the journey that lead to the reformation. I suppose during those times one could have levelled the accusation of being a business against any of the branches of the church. Of course it may have lead to being declared a heretic and .... welll... we know how that used to end up...
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Re: All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]bebofpenge wrote:
Wednesday, 28 October 2009 at 12:15 am (UTC)
Catholic Church going to court to stop a Protestant Christian denomination from printing a bible?

The laws of Copyright are time limited. The New Testament entered the public domain over 1600 years ago. In 2061 L Ron's copyright will expire.

It is interesting that two of the greatest frauds in the US were L Ron and Elron.
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Re: All Religions are Guilty of Fraud....
[info]killerbeer wrote:
Thursday, 29 October 2009 at 07:49 am (UTC)
Unfortunately, if the Mickey Mouse Law keeps being "improved", L Ron's copyright will never expire.

And it's "Enron", not "Elron", so your observation, amusing as it is, is wasted.
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Russia Tried to Ban them and failed
[info]social_liberal wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:26 pm (UTC)
The European Court of Human Rights recognises the church of Scientology as a religion.

under the Human rights laws people have a human right to practice a religion. When Russia tried to ban Scientology they took them to the ECHR and won on these grounds.

The fact is, for as long as Scientology is recognised as a religion, the French cannot ban them.

I only hope they see sense soon and remove them from this kind of legal protection so we can ban this evil cult from not only France but the UK, Belgium, and the rest of Europe. If the Americans dont want to ban them thats their problem, we dont need Scientology ripping people off over here.
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Re: Russia Tried to Ban them and failed
[info]evolvedape wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 06:35 pm (UTC)
@social_liberal:

Just curious, what is your definition of religion? How exactly is believing in Xenu any different, than believing in the Holy Trinity?
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Re: Russia Tried to Ban them and failed
[info]social_liberal wrote:
Wednesday, 28 October 2009 at 12:10 am (UTC)
Nothing

but I dont like all the other religions either. I dont mind watching them all go.
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Good
[info]thelzdking wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 07:44 pm (UTC)
This is a good thing. Roll on fraud charges for Christianity, Islam and Judaism as well.
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Laugh
[info]nutleyboy wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 08:02 pm (UTC)
Oh the Joy. Ha Ha
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Shazzam!
[info]arcane_af wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 10:47 pm (UTC)
I would like to ask all these celebrity Scientologists their thoughts on Xenu. Do Tom Cruise etc. know about that stuff? You would have thought so, they'd have paid enough. I used to get Captain Marvel for 12p an issue when I was a kid. He didn't exist of course, but he was slightly more realistic than Xenu.

There's one born every minute... but also many vulnerable people who get hoiked in with promises to improve their lives. If Scientology can't be banned, then some public information advertising might be useful. "Charley says - these people will offer you some dime-store pseudo-psychology, then brainwash you, take your money, alienate you from your family, and then fob with off with some crap about a space alien. Be forewarned!"

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Incidentally...
[info]arcane_af wrote:
Tuesday, 27 October 2009 at 10:56 pm (UTC)
... I notice that no Scientologists who come forward to defend their business - sorry, "religion." Which suggests that what I read earlier was true - members aren't allowed to look on the internet. I wonder if they're banned from reading the papers and watching news and documentaries on the telly too?
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