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Robert Fisk’s World: Examine the Pope's words, and there's only one thing to conclude

Benedict will demean other religions to prove Christianity’s ‘superiority’

So it's all the fault of the Pope's satraps. "Vatican advisers blamed for Pope's woes," I was informed by one headline. "A self-imposed cone (sic) of silence surrounds Benedict." And now poor old Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Benedict XVI, the solitary German who found himself manning an anti-aircraft gun at the end of the Second World War ("briefly" and "unwillingly", I know) has had some "harsh words" for his advisers because – according to the Vatican – he "had no idea of Bishop Williamson's views before lifting an excommunication order against him last month".

Williamson, I should add, is the disgusting British-born prelate of the Society of Saint Pius X who has said that "not a single Jew died in a gas chamber" in the Second World War. This Cambridge-educated priest says he is prepared to "re-examine" the historical evidence of the Holocaust – but, needless to say, declines to visit Auschwitz. Unsurprisingly, the Vatican has rejected Williamson's mealy-mouthed apology to those who suffered "injustice" at Nazi hands.

Now a lot of folk will go along with the line that the Holy Father is so stupid – so utterly out of touch with Planet Earth and all its Catholic children, so "cut off from the real world" (here I quote a Vatican "insider") – that he has no idea how disastrously his actions are received. Hmmm. Well, I wonder.

For was this not the same Pope who actually visited Auschwitz and – to the understandable outrage of Jewish dignitaries who were present – blamed a Nazi "gang" for the Jewish Holocaust? Before this infallible pronouncement, an awful lot of people thought that the Nazi German nation was to blame for Auschwitz, but old Joseph apparently thought it was a mafia clique in Berlin that murdered six million European Jews. And – here we go again – was this not the same ex-Cardinal Ratzinger (anti-divorce, anti-gay and anti-aircraft, as I always remind myself) who delivered a lecture at Regensburg in 2006 in which he quoted from a Byzantine text which characterised the Prophet Mohamed as evil and inhuman?

Chancellor Merkel, it was, who called up the old boy to point out that pardoning Williamson gave the impression that Holocaust denial was "permissible". The last time a German Chancellor took so serious an interest in the words of the Holy Father, of course, was more than 60 years earlier when A Hitler Esq profoundly hoped that Pope Pius XII would abide by Williamson's line on the Holocaust. That particular pope's silence is well expressed in the sinister black statue of His Holiness in St Peter's Basilica, a bespectacled cadaver that so shocked a Muslim friend of mine that she took 36 photos of the thing "because he looked so evil".

Well, there you go. But I bring all this up today because of a remarkable article by Ralph Coury, professor of history at Fairfield University, Connecticut, which appeared in the latest issue of the Institute of Race Relations' journal Race and Class. The redoubtable professor has combed his way through Benedict's Regensburg peroration, in which the Holy Father quotes the 14th-century Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus as telling a visitor to "show me just what Mohamed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and human". God, the good Paleologus told his interlocutor, "is not pleased by blood – and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body".

Coury's detailed critique of Benedict's mistakes – his apparent belief, for example, that there is a doctrine of jihad in the Koran – is compelling, but he has also unearthed some revealing interviews in which Ratzinger/Benedict reveals a lot more than he should have done about his own bias against Islam. "There is a very marked subordination of woman to man," he says of Islam in 1996. "There is a very tightly knit criminal law, indeed, a law regulating all areas of life, that is opposed to our modern ideas about society ... above all, Islam doesn't make any sort of concessions to enculturation (sic). Islam is Arab (sic), and anyone who becomes Islamic takes on this form of life."

In Regensberg, Benedict went on to say that Christianity took on "its historically decisive character in Europe" despite "its origins and some significant developments (sic) in the East". These few significant "developments" presumably include a Jew called Jesus and his birthplace in Bethlehem - which is at least 1,000km from Rome – along with the misadventures of numerous disciples in the Middle East, until Saint Paul headed off to Macedonia and the whole shebang mercifully became a "Western" or "occidental" religion.

Benedict's remarks on the theological significance of Israel on Roman Catholics have themselves been a little odd. "If it has significance for you, it must have significance for us," he told a Jewish leader before he was pope. "One would think that such a small people couldn't really be important," he said of the Jews in 1993. "But I believe there is something special about this people and that the great decisions of world history are almost always connected to them somehow." This is not very comforting.

But Coury has also traced some very disturbing decisions by Benedict; his post-papal demotion, for example, of Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald, head of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, his distancing himself from the pro-Palestinian Angelo Cardinal Sidaro, John XXIII's secretary of state and a friend of Michel Sabbah, the Palestinian Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem; not to mention Benedict's private audience (originally kept secret) with the increasingly weird Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci – whose crackpot statements included the assertion that "Islam breeds hatred" and that Muslims "breed like rats". The details of this extraordinary papal audience with the late Ms Fallaci have never (unsurprisingly) been disclosed.

And what do I make of all this? Well, I don't think the Pope is as innocent as he seems, nor so ill-advised. He sees Christianity as a superior, "Western" religion and is prepared to demean other religions to prove it. I think he knows exactly what he is doing. I think he knows what he is saying. I used to think he was a silly old German. Now I am beginning to suspect he might be a very nasty piece of work.

More from Robert Fisk

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Hear Hear!
[info]streaksofwild wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 12:27 am (UTC)
Kudos to Mr. Fisk yet again. However, I am wondering when the esteemed journalist will address the issue of the good Doctor Abdul Quadeer Khan, a subject that is demanding attention from a man who likely knows more about it than most of the rest of the world. Khan is the most dangerous man alive right now. Why isn't there more media interest in this?
Re: Hear Hear!
[info]cm999 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:17 pm (UTC)
Because Christianity is the only religion you can criticise with out be called racist, anti jewish and been verbally hounded by the do gooder of the world
Groupism
[info]ejh16 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 01:01 am (UTC)
Arguing about what religion is superior is a lot of nonsense. They are all equally ridiculous. If people would simply respect others regardless of what group they are a part of, be it a nation group or a religious group, the world would of course be a much healthier place.

http://theunpeople.blogspot.com/
Re: Groupism
[info]libertyhouse wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 05:19 am (UTC)
you just called all religions "nonsense", where's the respect from you?
Re: Groupism - [info]ejh16 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:05 am (UTC) Expand
Respect - [info]greenman9876 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Respect - [info]r_small - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 09:44 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Respect - [info]ydef - Monday, 16 March 2009 at 04:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Groupism - [info]rayleddy - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 08:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Groupism - [info]care2take - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:10 am (UTC) Expand
Is Robert Fisk stupid?
[info]samb_uk wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 01:32 am (UTC)
Is Robert Fisk serious? Is he really attacking the Pope for regarding Christianity as 'superior'? Of course the Pope regards Christianity to be superior to other religions - that's why he's belongs to the Christian faith! Muslims never consider it rude when they demean the rest of us by constantly going on about how Christianity (and other religions) are 'corrupt' and how infidels (ie you and me) are going to burn in hell forever for refusing to subjugate ourselves to the Islamic ideology.

Note that I'm not defending the Pope here - I intensely dislike the Roman Catholic Church in general - especially for their usual attack on gay people; opposition to science - e.g. stem-cell research and etc. I'm just trying to point out the ridiculous content of your article.

ps. why don't you criticise Muslim religious leaders who incite the most horrifying hatred and and violence against gays, women and etc?

Re: Is Robert Fisk stupid?
[info]fab75 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 09:32 am (UTC)
There is enough criticism over Islams these days and yet hardly any over the catholic church, thank Mr Fisk.
Pope Benedict
[info]keltikos wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 01:37 am (UTC)
Would it be presumptuous of me Robert to assume that you have a certain dislike for Pope Benedict
Well Robert
[info]thesavageirish wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 01:52 am (UTC)

you may have missed his quietly abolishing limbo, (doesn't quite gel well with jurisdiction over the unborn dont'cha know!) and reforming the position on 'indulgences' which can't bode too well for practitioners within the church either not to mind sparking the ire of any godfearing Lutheran.
I remember hushed tones and knowing, but careful nods from clergymen I spoke to when he was elevated. Resignedly commenting............"Ah..yes,.....'The German Shepherd'.
A very nasty piece of work
[info]nled63 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 01:56 am (UTC)

To suggest that Ratzinger knew nothing of Williamson's past or his racial & political views is to have us believe that as the most powerful & influential inquisitor in modern times, Ratzinger had somehow neglected to open a file on this individual. By re-instating Williamson, Ratzinger may have at last over-reached himself. It will perhaps be of no comfort to Ratzinger to have suddenly found himself counted among the likes of David Irving & the odious "Lady" Renouf, but that is the company Williamson sought-out after his flight from Argentina, is the company that has defined Williamson's ultimate position, & by implication, Ratzinger's.

Put it this way...
[info]calidore115 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:14 am (UTC)
The Pope may be a nasty piece of work in Robert Fisk's impression, but I can assure you on monotheistic religions Benedikt's statements are mild and well-thought out compared to those of prominent Islamic and Jewish leaders, and the church also deserves credit for being on the side of peace in the Middle East rather than on the side of the murderers who run things when you leave the Christian west behind and head east.
Re: Put it this way...
[info]chanch5 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 12:52 pm (UTC)
"the side of the murderers who run things when you leave the Christian west behind and head east. "

Not to be confused with the murderers from the Christian west, I guess.
[info]calidore115 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:17 am (UTC)
The pope's on other religions views are mild and intellectual compared to how Islamic and Jewish leaders are behaving as you leave the Christian west and head east. In fact, I might as well say head east from Holyhead.
Muslims Today
[info]artgenie wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:31 am (UTC)
Mr Fisk is sympathetic to Muslims and that is commendable. He takes his stand behind Mr Coury's findings. My ten year experience living in Sydney with Pakistani & other Muslims leads me to believe they are biding their time to shut all Australian"immoral" TV stations and eventually take over the country and impose sharia law. Sounds like nonsense? Activists go to their mosque Friday nights discuss late into the night and sleep there, away from their family. Trips to Pakistan are frequent for certain individuals.
They are never molested by somnolent customs, on arrival. They bring about a ton of luggage with them making inspection seem unsurmountable.
American occupation in Iraq meant to them only one thing; the eventual liberation of their women. Hence the savagery of their attacks on the invaders.
Muslim women I have known would gladly embrace Western ways, contrary of course to the men.
Re: Muslims Today
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:37 am (UTC)
Wow, man; it?s like you summoned muslims all together; you need to do more research about Islam, and learn how you can draw a distinction between religion, social values and culture; and you also need to find a solution for your paranoia.

I wouldn?t want to live in the Taliban regime, and I wouldn?t want to live in a society so materialized that instead of women being kept oppressively in the dark, they?re paraded in the media as merely flesh, and everybody's fooled that its freedom and liberty; being fed the info and the news through the multiple media outlets, instead of a radical regime that has an official channel, both attempting to control the mind while the first is more deceiving and much more successful because you think you have a choice!
Re: Muslims Today - [info]freeethinker - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 10:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]smoothop8388 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 12:16 pm (UTC) Expand
You don't speak the truths do you? - [info]nooraza - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 04:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You don't speak the truths do you? - [info]smoothop8388 - Monday, 2 March 2009 at 10:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You don't speak the truths do you? - [info]smoothop8388 - Monday, 2 March 2009 at 10:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]nairb09 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]twelve_three - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 11:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]freeethinker - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 11:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]twelve_three - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 04:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]freeethinker - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]twelve_three - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]twelve_three - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Muslims Today - [info]famulla - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 12:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Fisked
[info]yahew111 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:33 am (UTC)

Anybody notice the irony of a (cultural)Protestant in a country which has historically run red with Catholic blood criticising the leader of a religion not his own, for criticising other religions not *his* own. It is beyond parody. Of course the Pope thinks the religion he leads is superior, as all Islamic clerics think their culture superior ( to Catholicism and all other religions). An article in the Sun by LittleJohn pointing out Islamic supremacism in this regard would be "right wing"; an article which attacks England's most historically discriminated religion is "left wing" by some alchemy which can only be known to the self appointed, self satisfied purveyors of PC group-think in the UK.

His critcisms of Islam are totally fair - what is exactly wrong with this: "There is a very tightly knit criminal law, indeed, a law regulating all areas of life, that is opposed to our modern ideas about society ... above all, Islam doesn't make any sort of concessions to enculturation "

enculturation is spelt correctly, of course ( nothing more stupid than a misplaced "sic").

The real cause of Fisk's anti-papistry, is not the Pope and the holocaust denier - an idiot - but this statement "But I believe there is something special about this people and that the great decisions of world history are almost always connected to them somehow". That upsets Fisk to his core. I note that the "anti-racists" who write for magazines like "Race and Class" get to attack Catholicism. Jews, the celtic fringe, the working classes, and America ( the latter two for racism).

Which means of course this "anti-racist" liberal class in the UK has the same inherent and inbred bigotry as a 19th century anglo saxon racial and class supremacist.

Re: Fisked
[info]irreference wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:19 pm (UTC)
what on earth are you rambling about dude? you let go of the wheel in the last couple sentences there...
What about Ratzinger and George Bush
[info]violetsmart wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:43 am (UTC)
I've kept a file on Ratzinger for some time. It's very long. I have been incensed at all his reactionary and anti-Christian utterances and enouncements. But what caused me to be irate enough to write an article on it was his close friendship with George H. Bush, and his role in helping Bush/Cheney get relected in 2004. Ratzinger pressed the American hierarchy to condemn Kerry publicly because he was for free choice. In the opinion of writers I respect, Ratzinger thus swayed the Catholic vote in America.
So, we had to endure another four years of that criminal mafia in the White House. God knows how much damage those additional years wrought upon Americans and the world thanks to Ratzinger.

Re: What about Ratzinger and George Bush
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 08:12 am (UTC)
Yes, this is very interesting, although Kerry is a catholic. Another thing worth mentioning is that both Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones members. I think the ?moral? issues you mentioned were just smoke-screen. I know this might sound weird to most westerners but I actually believe that election was fixed, just like the one before it; if you know how secret societies work, you?d know what I mean. Moreover, even Obama?s rise to power was contemplated very well to be the best thing to do, and the best pose to show the Americans and the rest of the world, and make it sound like change, reform have come and the people were able to achieve that; while its just a slight change in tactics and some economical policies; the rest of the issues are just smokescreen to keep the people debating about something and to draw a line between ?liberal? and "conservative?; through divisions, they rule.
Re: What about Ratzinger and George Bush - [info]toadfromoz - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 03:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Now I'm going to gossip
[info]violetsmart wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 02:50 am (UTC)
I spend a great deal of time in Italy, and it has been rumored sotto voce for some time that Ratzinger's secretary, "Gorgeous" George Ganswein, is somewhat closer to him than a secretary ordinarily would be. To aproperly appreciate Ganswein, you can google him in images. If this is so, it makes Ratzinger's public policies against homosexuals an ultimate hypocrisy.
what a ramble
[info]matthew_dc wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 04:21 am (UTC)
Fisk rambles on in this article only to arrive at a plug for Islam. I think he's gone temporarily mad, or perhaps it's just because there's no anti-Israel news to write this week. It's a mark of good interfaith dialogue that people can speak openly. Christians, Muslims and Jews all believe their respective religion is superior to the others'. The point is to be humane while preserving one's own culture and religion.

Fisk's swipes at the pope are rather trashy and shabby, incoherent journalism. But no writer can be good all the time and this must be one of his off days. Get back to writing about things you do well. This is not one of them.




Re: what a ramble - [info]smoothop8388 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 08:20 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Now I'm going to gossip - [info]emmac213 - Sunday, 1 March 2009 at 12:11 am (UTC) Expand
No dumb Blonde
[info]myopiniononly wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 03:52 am (UTC)
I have worked for the Catholic church over a period of 6 years and have found that the zealots within the church do not abide by the teachings of the gospel, but by still live in a time where the Inquisition was the right way to go and that all other religions are null and void. They have no clue about the real world, poverty is the fault of the people, yet where Catholicism is the main doctrine and children are dying because their parents are not allowed to take birth control is criminal. Their interpretation of the Bible is based on the bits they like not the ones they don't like. It is my understanding that in the commandments it says you will not make for yourself an idol, whether it be heaven above or the earth below so why is it that every church has the Crucifixion of Christ who is the trinity. Jesus was a Jew and he died a Jew and the religions that have followed seemed to forget that. The new Testament was written several years after his death and it has been proven that many gospels were omitted because of their content that didn't sit well with the Church. Times haven't changed things are still being edited to suit in my opinion
Re: No dumb Blonde
[info]hendale wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 04:01 pm (UTC)
"..It is my understanding that in the commandments it says you will not make for yourself an idol, whether it be heaven above or the earth below so why is it that every church has the Crucifixion of Christ who is the trinity.."

Very iconoclastic view. Much of medieval Britain's artistic heritage was smashed to pieces once Protestantism became the official religion. You just have to go to many churches and see that where saints sculptures used to be there are empty spaces. Even in the Byzantine Empire there was conflict about the artistic representation of religious characters. Islam inherited from Judaism this view and that is why they trashed thousands of years of religious art in Constantinople and other Christian territories they conquered. Not that long ago the Taleban demolished two ancient Buddha statues for the same reason.

Who is the zealot here?
Re: No dumb Blonde - [info]visiona4thought - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 09:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Pope Benedict XVI Rocks!
[info]gmilagre wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 04:20 am (UTC)
The good thing about Ratzinger is that with him the Catholic church show its truly face. And truth is always better than dissimulation. Long life to Ratzinger! :-)
Albinon Assassins are not Christian
[info]redroseandy wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 05:06 am (UTC)
With albino assassins at the Pope's disposal it is debatable whether Catholicism is actually Christian. Reims Cathedral is also where the Catholic Church agreed with the Gurus of the time to rule the world and ensure that Jesus did not come back. That would make a good film!
Stick to something you actually know about, Bob
[info]rowan_berkeley wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:01 am (UTC)
There are thousands of journos writing articles like the above already. The market is saturated with them. Why don't you go back to bashing Bashir? You seem to enjoy that, and you do at least have some expertise on the subject (though I often doubt your good faith).
[info]johnnywi wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:07 am (UTC)
My My another anticatholic diatribe by some ignorant scribe. Who has condemned the Iraq war and diplomatically tried to get it stopped [ Pope Benedict]? He is a fine scholar and he believes in what he has been preaching the last 60 years. He has reached out to Muslims, Jews and Protestants and disident Catholics. However to expect him to deny what he believes to be the truth, is just a little too much. The Pope has had last rights over every atheist regime in history and I expect he will over present gang as well. Stalin said "How many divisions does the Pope have". It turned out to be more than enough.
Halo Cast
[info]3dum wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:24 am (UTC)
Oh dear Bishops denying the holocaust never occurred.
What confidence does that provide they really believe in God?

No wonder his Holiness seeks a bigger apology.

As for the moral superiority of Christianity are any bankers facing excommunication for the current economic turmoil? Bring back the inquisition!
Utter Fabrication
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 06:35 am (UTC)
While all the religions are man made, Christianity is based on utter fabrication invented by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, et al.

Regarding the Bishop, if the Western nations claim that they are true democracies and as a result, allow freedom of speech and expression, then why jail people who dispute the absolute figure which has no mathematical backing and is based on some agreed figure. Mr. Fisk, can you and others explain to the people born after the war and especially those outside Europe how you have arrived at the absolute figure?
Re: Utter Fabrication
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:30 am (UTC)
"Regarding the Bishop, if the Western nations claim that they are true democracies and as a result, allow freedom of speech and expression, then why jail people who dispute the absolute figure which has no mathematical backing and is based on some agreed figure."

Exactly, we're just told that Hitler and the Nazzis are evil and they hated jews and killed 6 million of them; and every year, we have many movies reminding us of that.

Now, when it comes to a cartoon showing the most holy muslim figure, Mohammed as a terrorist, and in turn spreading a stereotype that all muslims are terrorists,feeding to more anger and hatered, it's called sacred freedom of speech; but when skepticism about a historical event, or any research done in that subject; it is considered anti-Semitism. Hypocrisy is so common, that we can?t even see it anymore.

Other valid questions, who financed Hitler?s rise to power? Who had deals with Hitler that ultimately resulted in the persecution against Jews, and their expulsion to Palestine? Who benefited from that? Who refused to take in the Jews who fled from Europe?
Re: Utter Fabrication - [info]paul999 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Utter Fabrication - [info]smoothop8388 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 09:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Utter Fabrication - [info]paul999 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 09:45 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Utter Fabrication - [info]smoothop8388 - Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 11:38 am (UTC) Expand
Nazi German nation
[info]johncmullen1960 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:03 am (UTC)
Ah the nazi german nation? The level of historical analysis is stunning!
So all of a sudden a whole nation went nazi (in 1933 I presume) and then waited a few years because well people sometimes do wait in history and then organized the holocaust. Good luck with your history O level.
Who's the reactionary
[info]49niner wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:04 am (UTC)
Catholicism is hardly a beacon for modern Western values. Attitudes of their leaders to women priests, homosexuals, birth control etc are decidedly reactionary. And don't forget the Inquisition which was the nastiest religious torture organisation of its day. Over the centuries the Catholic Church has much to be ashamed of, not least during the Nazi/Fascist era.

There are some regimes which use Islam in a repressive way, not least Saudi Arabia whom our leaders suck up to because of oil. But to tar all Muslims with the same brush, or all Catholics for that matter, is unfair. People in powerful positions have always used religion for their own purposes. Don't judge a book by its cover.

Religion gives spiritual comfort to millions. Pity some of its leaders are more obsessed with their power and influence rather than bringing peace and comfort to humankind.
Generally I agree
[info]johncmullen1960 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC)
Generally I agree with Mr Fisk (especially about the Middle East) but I get annoyed with ideas like "the nazi german nation". Even so, the idea that the pope is a nasrty piece of work is probably correct!
Are bears Catholic?
[info]balbkubrox wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:22 am (UTC)
It seems a bit unreasonable of you, Robert, to be so down on poor old Pope Ratzi for merely proclaiming what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as opposed to what millions of pragmatic lesser Catholics have done over the past three centuries in order to live at peace with those around them. It's a triumphalist religion and it officially believes like all other Christian denominations - and devout Muslims - that its members alone will go to heaven when they die while all the rest of us low-life are destined for Hell, having been created by God specifically for that purpose. The line of argument when I was young was (i) those who are not saved are damned (ii) the sacraments of the Church are essential for salvation (iii) only the Catholic Church's sacraments are valid (iv) therefore all non-Catholics are destined for eternal torment in a lake of fire that burneth for ever. A few half-hearted exclusions were allowed here: people with learning difficulties; ignorant head-hunters in New Guinea who had never heard of Jesus (though the Church was still very emphatic that unbaptised infants were destined for the bonfire). But essentially it was good news for Catholics and very bad for everyone else. This doctrine was modified a bit by Vatican II: more for the sake of politeness than anything else, but that still stuck in the throats of the Saint Pius X crowd who departed to form their own church which went on damning everyone with the greatest gusto - including, now, all non-Lefebvre Catholics who it proclaims to be members of a defective church with invalid sacraments, the Vatican having been taken over (as it puts it) by "Jews, Freemasons and Bolsheviks".

For me, part of the grisly fascination of listening to the Lefebrvists is hearing all the standard claptrap of the French aristo-Catholic ultra-Right in the 1900s translated word for word into English. It's as though time has stood still.

The previous Pope probably believed more or less the same as the present one. But he was charming and avuncular and very good at handling the crowds so he got away with it. Poor old Ratzinger though is a serious stumblebum, as bachelor-scholars in enclosed institutions tend to be, and has plainly made a monumental pig's ear of this Williamson business: the entire Catholic Church now left with a gang of revolting Nazi apologists stuck to the sole of its shoe like chewing gum or something even less pleasant. In fact it gets worse than that: I gather that David Irving yesterday uttered kind words about Catholicism and may be thinking about converting, now that Rome is plainly taking a more robust line on "them". With friends like that...
nothing but praise
[info]freedommonger wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:24 am (UTC)
as I often post here violently disagreeing with Mr Fisk I felt it only fair to comment today. 100% spot on Mr Fisk. All religion is essentially nasty being as it is, a way for some men to hold sway over other men by citing ancient texts that can "explain" the thiungs science cannot and soothe our base ape instincts which we are still burdened with as genetic evolution trys and fails to keep up with the evolution of modern society.

But I think therefore this Pope is quite good. He is more "real" and people can see him for what he is, like you have Mr Fisk.

But tell me, could you write a similar piece about the similar creed of Islam, or Judaism? I suspect not. Why dont we see all religions persued with the same zeal as we rightly apply to our own men in dresses? These are just old books written by men to control men. At best they are the original work of a well intentioned philosopher but over the centrioes all have, I think, been perverted to meet the needs of the ruling men at the time. For example the Haddith.

We should say so openly and often. BLaspheming should be a public service. People living in glass houses should be stoned, because theirs is an anti social anti humanity activity. To improve and help humanity become a real philosopher and sell your ideas on their merit, not their refence in a 2000 year old book (just the one book of course) and promises of heaven and threats of hell. Too tough an ask for most frock wearers isnt it?
whaat an ignorant piece of work! at the very least close to libelous!
[info]theophil7 wrote:
Saturday, 28 February 2009 at 07:25 am (UTC)
Pope Benedict did NOT pardon Bp. Williamson, who has been SUSPENDED from the priesthood throughout this entire sordid episode. What Pople Bendedict determined was that Williamson's gross disobedience had not resulted in his leaving the Catholic faith.
Re: whaat an ignorant piece of work! at the very least close to libelous!
[info]leyla_here wrote:
Sunday, 1 March 2009 at 01:44 pm (UTC)
samb_uk

You need to read this from the Holy Quran


2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

7:159 Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous



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