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Patrick Cockburn: Can Obama turn rhetoric into the reality of peace with the Muslim world?

The President's bridge-building is welcome. But it will take more than words to erase the damage done by his predecessor

President Barack Obama speaks to troops at Camp Victory in Baghdad

Reuters

President Barack Obama speaks to troops at Camp Victory in Baghdad

The start of the Iraq war in 2003 marked a crucial break between the US and almost all the states of the region. "None of Iraq's neighbours, absolutely none, were pleased by the American occupation of Iraq," says the Iraqi Foreign Minister, Hoshyar Zebari. Long-term US allies like Turkey astonished the White House by refusing to allow US troops to use its territory to invade Iraq.

Barack Obama, who made his first official visit to the country yesterday, is now trying to disengage from Iraq without appearing to scuttle or leave anarchy behind.

He is trying to win back old allies, and, as he made clear in a speech in Ankara on Monday, to end the confrontation between the US and Islam which was president Bush's legacy.

It is not easy for Mr Obama to reverse the tide of anti-Americanism or bring to an end the wars which Mr Bush began. For all the Iraqi government's claim that life is returning to normal in Baghdad the last few days have seen a crescendo of violence. The day before the President, arrived six bombs exploded in different parts of Baghdad, killing 37 people.

And as muchas Mr Obama would like to treat the Iraq war as ancient history, the US is still struggling to extricate itself. The very fact that the Democratic President had to arrive in Iraq by surprise, as George Bush and Tony Blair invariably did, for security reasons, shows that the conflict is refusing to go away.

The Iraqi Prime Minister and President remain holed up in the Green Zone most of the time. The American President could not fly into the Green Zone by helicopter because of bad weather but the airport road is still unsafe and Baghdad remains one of the most dangerous countries in the world. The Iraqi political landscape too was permanently altered by the US invasion and it will be difficult to create a stable Iraqi state which does not depend on the US. Opinion polls in Iraq show that most Iraqis believe that it is the US and not their own government which is in control of their country.

One change which is to Mr Obama's advantage is that the American media has largely stopped reporting the conflict because they no longer have the money to do so and a majority of Americans think the war was won. But the danger for the President is that if there is a fresh explosion in Iraq, he may be blamed for throwing away a victory that was won by his predecessor.

The rhetoric with which the US conducts its diplomacy is easier to change than facts on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan. Mr Obama's speech to the Turkish parliament in Ankara was a carefully judged bid to reassure the Muslim world that the US is not at war with Islam.

Everything he said was in sharp contrast to George Bush's bellicose threats post 9/11 about launching a "crusade" and to the rhetoric of neo-conservatives attacking "Islamo-fascism" or claiming that there was a "clash of civilisations."

The leaders of states with Muslim majorities appreciate the different tone of US pronouncements, but privately wonder how far Mr Obama will be able to introduce real change.

Turkish students at a meeting with Mr Obama in Istanbul yesterday voiced scepticism that American actions in future would be much different from what they were under Mr Bush. Reasonably enough, Mr Obama replied that he should be given time and "moving the ship of state is a slow process." But he also cited the US withdrawal from Iraq as a sign that he would match actions to words.

Istanbul, on the boundaries of Europe and Asia, is a good place for the US leader to declare a more conciliatory attitude towards Islam. The city is filled with grandiose monuments to Christianity and Islam, though religious tolerance was more in evidence under the Ottoman empire than since the foundation of the modern Turkish state in 1923. Mr Obama paid visits to the great Byzantine church of Hagia Sophia and was shown the splendours of the Blue Mosque by turbaned clerics.

But the women students wearing short skirts and without headscarves asking Mr Obama questions in fluent English yesterday give a misleading impression of the balance between the secular and the religious in modern-day Turkey.

The reality is that secularism is dying away in Turkey's rural hinterland and is on the retreat even in Istanbul itself. Butchers selling pork are few compared to 20 years ago. Obtaining alcohol is quietly being made more difficult, except for foreign tourists, by high taxes on wine and expensive liquor licenses for restaurants.

The old middle class, particularly in Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir may be resolute in their defence of the secular state. But the so-called "Anatolian Tigers", the new companies which have led Turkey's spectacular economic growth, are generally owned and run by more conservative families where the women wear headscarves.

"Socially Turkey is becoming far more Islamic," said one expert on Turkey yesterday, "although the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) is moving cautiously."

Mr Obama's effort to make a U-turn in American policy towards the Islamic world will ultimately depend on how far he changes US policy towards Israel and the Palestinians, the occupation of Iraq, the confrontation with Iran and Syria and the war in Afghanistan.

The Iranians, for instance, note that despite Mr Obama's friendlier approach to them the US official in Washington in charge of implementing sanctions against them is a hold-over from the Bush administration.

The American confrontation with Islam post 9/11 always had more to do with opposition to foreign intervention and occupation than it did with cultural differences; the most ideologically religious Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia supported the US and it is doubtful how far al-Qa'ida fighters were motivated primarily by religious fanaticism.

The chief US interrogator in Iraq, Major Mathew Alexander, who is credited with finding out the location of the al-Qa'ida leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, says that during 1,300 interrogations he supervised, he came across only one true ideologue. He is quoted as saying that "I listened time and time again to foreign fighters, and Sunni Iraqis, state that the No 1 reason they had decided to pick up arms and join al-Qa'ida was the abuses at Abu Ghraib and the authorised torture and abuse at Guantanamo Bay."

This diagnosis by Major Alexander is confirmed by the history of Islamic fundamentalism across the Muslim world over the past 30 years.

It was the success of the Iranian revolution against the Shah in 1978/79 which began an era when political Islam was seen as a threat by the West, but Ayatollah Khomeini's appeal to Iranians always had a strong strain of nationalism and his exiling by the Shah in 1964 was because of his vocal opposition to extra-territorial rights for US military personnel in Iran.

The success of political Islam over secular nationalism in the Arab world has largely been because of the former's ability to resist the enemies of the community or the state. In Egypt the nationalism of Nasser was discredited by humiliating defeat in the 1967 war with Israel. In Iraq, for all his military bravado, Saddam Hussein was a notably disastrous military leader. All the military regimes espousing nationalism and secularism in the Arab world began or ended up turning into corrupt and brutal autocracies. In contrast, political Islam has been able to go some way towards delivering its promises of defending the community.

In Lebanon, Hizbollah guerrillas were able to successfully harass Israeli forces in the 1990s where Yasser Arafat's commanders had abandoned their men and fled.

In Gaza this year, Hamas was able to portray themselves as the one Palestinian movement committed to resisting Israel.

In Iraq, al-Qa'ida got nowhere until it could present itself as the opposition to the US occupation and as an ally, though a supremely bigoted and murderous one, of Iraqi nationalism.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban has the advantage of fighting against foreign occupation.

Secularism in the Arab world and in Afghanistan, on the other hand, has the problem that it is seen as being at the service of foreign intervention. It is why secularism and nationalism is ultimately stronger in Turkey than it is in almost all other Islamic countries.

Kemal Ataturk and the Turkish nationalists were successfully defended the Turkish heartlands from foreign attack between 1915 and 1922. This gave secularism and nationalism a credibility and a popularity in Turkey which they never had in Iraq, Egypt or Syria.

Mr Obama's aim of ending the confrontation between the US and the Muslim world is both easier and more difficult than it looks. It is easier because the confrontation is not primarily over religion or clashing cultures. But the confrontation is over real issues such as the fate of the Palestinians, the future of Iraq and the control of Afghanistan. And even if Mr Obama wanted to change the US political relationship with Israel, it is not clear that he has any more political strength at home than George Bush had to do so.

If these concrete issues are not resolved then America's confrontation with the Muslim world may remain as confrontational and difficult as it was under Mr Bush.

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Patrick Cockburn, now write an article about what crazy, irrational Hamas must do
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:29 am (UTC)
because in their current state of lunatic radical existence, no sane, intelligent people or leaders want anything to do with them and realize they are impossible to deal with.
Re: Patrick Cockburn, now write an article about what crazy, irrational Hamas must do
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:16 am (UTC)
At least Hamas are the legal occupants of Palestine unlike the Israelis who are there by force like the mafia thugs.
no reasoning with bigots
[info]benarab wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:08 am (UTC)
Of course peopel can't reason with bigoted and idiots like exec_ceo,
Nationalism void of foreign intervention
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:13 am (UTC)
I am in full agreement with the content of your article. It is all about nationalism without foreign intervention. In case of Turkey, if they allow women to wear scarves in the public sector and educational institutions, then secularism will not die because there will be less incentive to defy secularism. It would have been the same in Iran had the Shah allowed some freedom of speech and expression. Also, one reason why the secular leaders aligned themselves with the clergy was because Shah branded all those who opposed him as communists and jailed them, however, he could not accuse those who had aligned themselves with the clergy as communists because according to the Iranian Constitution, the Shah was the defender of the Shia religion. Unfortunately for the secular leaders and the Iranians, the clergy stabbed the Iranians in the back by taking over as soon as the Shah left Iran.
Re: Nationalism void of foreign intervention
[info]andre_t wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 06:12 am (UTC)
neither the Shah nor his master the US undertood, or understand that the oppressed masses will turn to religion if they see no other mean or ability of bondage. As we can see from many comments by our friends from across the pond, simplistic black-and-white view prevails. So Obama wants to cut the 600 billion military budget, well the US is broke and no one wants to keep on feedy this war mongering monster - printing money wont help either.
Re: Nationalism void of foreign intervention - [info]ydef - Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 01:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nationalism void of foreign intervention - [info]h_b_rucknerian - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 10:07 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nationalism void of foreign intervention - [info]chesscheckers - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Actions speak louder than words
[info]giuseppesapone wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 06:22 am (UTC)
With the war drum against Iran being beaten heavily in Washington by the Zionists that Obama has surrounded himself with, all his talk of bridge building appears to be empty rhetoric. The Muslim world wants to see action which so far Obama has failed to implement. For example, he missed the chance to halt the $30 billion in aid to Israel over the next 10 years that Israel will use to primarilly buy more of the U.S. weaponry that it used illegally against the Palestinians in Gaza. Indeed, Obama continues to send aid illegally to Israel in breach of the 1976 Symington Amendment which prohibits U.S. foreign aid to any country found trafficking in nuclear enrichment equipment ot technology outside international safeguards. Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.
So, we are waiting for action Mr President and I do not mean more military strikes agaisnt Pakistan or Iran.
Re: Actions speak louder than words
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:19 pm (UTC)
Exactly. Although I voted for him, I very much doubt that he will be able to change the US policy in the Middle East. AIPAC and pro-Israel lawmakers will not allow him.
Re: Actions speak louder than words - [info]ydef - Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 02:19 am (UTC) Expand
To win hearts and minds of Muslims
[info]saqeebmuneer70 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 09:02 am (UTC)

If President Barack Obama wants to win friends with the Muslim countries around the world, he must resolve the blood conflicts in the Middle East between the belligerent, warmongering and military aggressive Zionist state of Israel and Palestine, Syria and Lebanon. Israel is a nuclear power and stone throwing Palestinians can not destroy it and this dirty lie is not going to work for ever. Israel has become a rogue and a monstrous state that bullies and intimidated its neighbors. Israel must learn to live peace with the Arabs and not as their enemy.

President Obama must stop the Zionist Israelis Jews killing innocent Palestinian little babies, young children and their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters in hundreds and thousands; destroying their homes in hundreds and thousands to rubble; bombing their homes, streets and roads with smart bombs, phosphorous bombs, shells and cruise missiles and continue making Palestinians lives miserable by cutting off supplies of their food, electricity, gas, fuel, water, medicine; building ugly barriers walls and go on building illegal settlements on Arab lands and homes.

If Israel stops killing Muslims, peace will prevail in the world.
Re: To win hearts and minds of Muslims
[info]chanch5 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:17 pm (UTC)
"If Israel stops killing Muslims, peace will prevail in the world."

-The Eastern Bolivian elite will stop demanding full control of Bolivia's resources?

-Conflict will cease around diamonds and other minerals in the Congo?

-Armenia and Azerbaijan will resolve their dispute over the Nagorno-Karabakh region?

-Man and fish will coexist peacefully?


Maybe the Israeli-Palestinian conflict isn't the centre of world conflict! It is one more conflict that is in dire need of resolving fairly and peacefully.
Re: To win hearts and minds of Muslims - [info]andrelima - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC) Expand
dress codes plus
[info]fahrettin wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 09:34 am (UTC)
"... the new companies which have led Turkey's spectacular economic growth, are generally owned and run by more conservative families where the women wear the veil."

Hardly anyone wears a veil in Turkey. The headscarf is the more "conservative" (to use your highly questionable term) norm. This is more than just a fashion note. It's a precise statement of the majority's balance between secularismand religious affiliation- a balance that differs hardly at all fromthat of Britain's self-professed Christian minority. (I'm British, so I know whereof I speak.) This balance is something that Turkey's militant so-called secularists misunderstand too. In fact their misapprehension of Islam has a lot in common with that of Bush.
Re: dress codes plus
[info]nyoped wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:29 pm (UTC)
That's the version you would like Brits to believe. The reality we Turks live in is different though. Many girls cannot wear headscarves in their universities and cannot take them off in their own neighborhoods. The law, the husband, the brother and the father makes the decision on behalf of Turkish women today. We can change the law overnight to give women the right to wear whatever they want in universities, however, it will take decades to change the husband, the brother and the father.
Great Article
[info]mdlount wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 10:04 am (UTC)
My greetings to you...

I read your article with great interest and can't agree to you more.

Us Secular muslims in Turkey are scared, but we will not let this country turn into Islamic state, they will find millions of Ataturk supporters in front of them.

Kind Regards
Re: Great Article
[info]psidian2 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 10:50 am (UTC)
I don't think there were hardly any butchers in Istanbul even 20 years ago selling any pork. Regarding Mr. Cockburn's veil, there are very few women with veil, but the women with headscarves are more pronounced. 20 years ago, they were not visible and were not so sure of themselves. I know at least a portion of Anatolian hinterland. What I observed that a lot of young women are refusing in fact even to wear headscarves. It is certainly in retreat in many areas.
Another factual error
[info]psidian2 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 10:54 am (UTC)
Turkish nationalist struggle did not really start in 1915, it was 1919. In 1915, Mustafa Kemal was a colonel in Ottoman Army fighting in Gallipoli. Ottoman Empire was under the control of the Union and Progress Party, i.e. Young Turks.
I wonder who is feeding him all this information, his unnamed expert friend?
mete
[info]mrmete wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC)
Obama's coming Turkey to send message to Muslim countries is disrespectful because we are not a ''muslim country''. despite %99 muslim population, Turkey is not muslim country. state and religious are totally seperated. I ,as a Turkish young man, am sick of being known as citizen of a country where the people live according to strict rules of any kind of religion.
Re: mete
[info]ydef wrote:
Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 01:45 am (UTC)
Your post makes no sense. Turkey is called a Muslim country because its inhabitants are predominantly Muslim. This has nothing to do with the Turkish government and its constitution. Turkey is viewed with admiration and a beacon of hope by many in the west since it reveals how a country with a predominant Muslim population can also be a modern secular state where the freedoms of the individual is respected irrespective of religious disposition. The success of your countrymen and government to keep separate the institutions of church and state should be rightly lionized and Obama making Turkey the first predominantly Muslim populated country he visits was done in part to highlight the success of Turks and their model of government to the rest of the Middle East and the world. You're getting worked up over absolutely nothing. No educated individual thinks of Turkey as a Muslim theocracy ruled under Sharia law.

Chill.
Re: mete - [info]mrmete - Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 11:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: mete - [info]ydef - Thursday, 9 April 2009 at 07:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Muslims don't eat pork
[info]metinaras wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 11:22 am (UTC)
I think there is some factual erros in this article. The writer says that there is less butchers today selling pork, but he forgets that Muslims don't eat pork. It is forbidden. For the secularism issue, the only secular has been the elitist Turks who have similar attidues with stalin or hitler. With the new government people have felt they are not just governed but also are governing themselves.
Re: Muslims don't eat pork
[info]nyoped wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:12 pm (UTC)
This is the mindset that is governing Turkey today. Government (and its subject like metinaras) has an 'ideal muslim' in mind and they want everyone to confirm to that model. Sir, it is not up to you (or your cult) to decide who eat pork or who muslim is. You cannot even comprehend the idea that someone can consider himself muslim but choose to eat pork every now and then.

The fact is that municipal officers (Erdogan's Blackshirts) have become the religious police force in Turkey -they harass whichever store that sells alcohol or pork.
Modern Turkey
[info]erays wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC)
I surprisingly saw that Mr. Cockburn has identified the problems better than many of the Turkish Citizens...

Approximately %50 of the people do not consider the threat of Political Islam towards secular and national Turkish Republic...

Everybody should appreciate the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk..
Re: Modern Turkey
[info]ozlemk wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:01 pm (UTC)
unfortunately your are not the one who has identified problem of turkey... with the arguments from 1900 you have no chance againt islamist people. sunni "national Turkish Republic" sidelines Alevism and kurdish people... Kemal Ataturk's Turkey tried to assimilate all minorities to create united/pure national state. this is the nature of creation of national state!!! you think that if ataturk would re-born he could solve your problems and islamist people think if mohammed would re-born he would solve their problem. you want to go 100 years back and islamist people wants to go 1000 years back!!! the difference between you and the people you call threat is numbers....
turkey secularism
[info]harun02 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 12:55 pm (UTC)
women students wearing short skirts and without headscarves asking Mr Obama questions in fluent English yesterday give a <> between the secular and the religious in modern-day Turkey.
it is surely not a misleading picture.yes there is not a balance but the one who is dominant is the minority which is so-called secularists.
Re: turkey secularism
[info]ozlemk wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 01:35 pm (UTC)
unfortunately it is not far away that the majority you call will be dominant soon. i wonder will you be happy or not... i watch last night the program afgan star. i suggest you to watch because when the majority you call became dominant probably we will see more images like this program. visit iran and talk to people or they visit istanbul. you can meet with them in any shopping center. just talk to them and find out how is life in the countries where the majority you call is dominant...
Re: turkey secularism - [info]nyoped - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:18 pm (UTC) Expand
an embarrassing statement by COCKBURN
[info]robinbankel wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC)
"But the women students wearing short skirts and without headscarves asking Mr Obama questions in fluent English yesterday give a misleading impression of the balance between the secular and the religious in modern-day Turkey."

how could they give a misleading impression of a balance that they were not there to represent. they are students and if it hasn't occured yet to mr Cockburn i will lay it out for you here: it is forbidden to wear the headscarves at turkish universities. and their clothing do not in any way differ from what is normal for students. In fact you could say that they give the perfect representitive image of the typical turkish student. Further on I would like to point out the worry that is widely spread throughout turkey (and not only in Istanbul) concerning AKP's political intentions, but the AKP party is still the most democratic alternative for the present Turkey. My wife is from Eskisehir, a city that is located between istanbul, bursa and ankara. In eskisehir I see most young girls revealing their hair and many of them dressing casually. In fact it is I who have to argue the democratic right a person has to wear a veil at school while they seem more sceptic to the concet.
IF YOU DOUBT THE TURKISH SECULARITY OR INSINUATE THAT THERE IS A WIDELY SPREAD RADICAL AGENDA OF ISLAM IN TURKEY THEN YOU SHOULD GO AND SPEAK WITH TURKS, OR JUST TURN ON THE MUSIC CHANNEL "KRAL", YOU MIGHT HAVE TO RECONSIDER =)
Money talks
[info]scottoracle wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 01:40 pm (UTC)
"Less butchers that sell pork", this is funny. Religious or not everyone loves money. If there were people in Turkey looking to buy pork all around but they were not allowed to buy it, I would be surprised. At the end, people love money and if there is a market(demand), there will be supply. Apparently there is no demand to pork in Turkey because people are Muslim. Are you sure that you are not writing about being secular or not but being Muslim or not??
Re: Money talks
[info]nyoped wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:22 pm (UTC)
There are millions of non-muslims residents and visitors as well as pork-eating muslims in Turkey at any given moment. Once upon a time it was relatively profitable business to produce sausage in Turkey and one day AKP government decided to clamp down on pork butchers and that was it.
Re: Money talks - [info]wer_wind_blows - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:24 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Money talks - [info]nyoped - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Money talks - [info]psidian2 - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:53 pm (UTC) Expand
Accepting reality
[info]emsdeen wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 02:56 pm (UTC)
Patrick cockburn is right.Mr.Obama do need time to put his words into action.Also one should not forget
that he should concentrate on his plans of words to be put into action before the expiry of his first term
in office.So far he wasted no time.As Mr.cockburn has rightly pointed out,concrete measures have to be
taken to resolve cocrete issues.Mr.Obama is a man with sincere ambitions about what he wants to achieve for America.To win the votes of Americans,he had to reassure Israelis,that he is a strong ally
to them.Did he make any such assurance to anyone else in the region? Can he make America accept
a strong, ambitious, Islam which plays an important role in world affairs ? I think this is what muslim
world is struggling to achieve.And muslims world over believe, Israel is installed maintained and protected to discourage and destroy this.So, President Obama will have a huge task of easing tension
and start planning whole new building to house a fresh start.
WHERE'S MAH PORKZ?!?!?!
[info]cherry_is_berry wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:17 pm (UTC)
While your article does a great job at giving the illusion of knowledge about the Muslim world (as well as the illusion of sympathy for "their side of the story"), your comments about Turkey betray your laughable familiarity with the subject(s) at hand.

"I 'as 'eard in some place called Turkey, some geezer wants to rule 'is country wif shawriah law! Vat's well mingin', innit mate?"

That's uh... that's my impression of like every igmo who has commented on this article, and the author as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzRpoYf508o
secularism versus politicized religion
[info]joe_sadiqi wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:37 pm (UTC)
The Arab secular movements were suffocated by Western governments supporting their post First World War puppet regimes - Turkey escaped this because of the internal change of leadership which coincided with the placement of Britain's war time allies from the Arabian Peninsula on the thrones of the "new" Arab nations. The politicized Islamic groups either naturally filled the vacuum, or, if you believe some theories, were encouraged by external influence to provide a counter to the secularists.

Read Mr.Fisk and many others on this.
when did Ataturk began the war of independence?
[info]terkos wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:41 pm (UTC)
the writer of the article seems ignorant or hypocritical: Ataturk was just a colonel in 191, and he started the independence war in 19 may 1919. So, i think the writer tries to invent a link between modern Turkey and 1915 Armenian events.
go and read history man.
Bush only?
[info]andrelima wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 03:52 pm (UTC)
Why only Bush? Bush didn't start the "Shock and Awe" alone. He invaded Iraq and Afghanistan with the help of... Britain. Sorry to inform you. And also before Afghanistan was invaded the US was attacked. And to those linking Israel to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq: Sorry to inform you but, unlike Britain (and other countries like Denmark, Poland, El Salvador, Germany, etc) Israel is not part of that coalition.
Re: Bush only?
[info]giuseppesapone wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 07:03 pm (UTC)
Why should it be? It did its job when it attacked the US on 9/11 in its most successful false flag operation after the assassination of JFK.
Dress code in a democracy
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:01 pm (UTC)
It is the height of hypocrisy to say that one is for democracy and yet favors dress codes. Democracy encourages all kinds of freedom including freedom of expression and dress. Turkey, France, Holland, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc are all wrong for enforcing certain dress codes for their citizens. Turkey, France, Holland are wrong because they ban certain form of attire. Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. are wrong by enforcing dress codes some of which are health hazards especially during hot summers.
In a democracy, people should be allowed to wear whatever they want as long as their attire does not compromise the security of the country or interferes with the local laws. For example, a fully covered woman wearing face mask type of veil while driving or traveling by public transportation or teaching at public school is not only being unreasonable, but also in some cases, her attire may interfere with the security of the country and the local laws. On the other hand, people should not go in public naked or in their underwear.
Rationality
[info]manplant wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:05 pm (UTC)
Reading your comments about your Arab cousins, I'm interested to hear from you about your beliefs / sect and what your opinion is of other Jewish sects in Israel. In particular, I would like to know your opinion regarding who you think are the least and most rational sects and wether you think that any of them are not valid.

Do you regard any Jewish sect's beliefs as crazy or are they all equally rational?
exec_ceo
[info]manplant wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:07 pm (UTC)


Reading your comments about your Arab cousins, I'm interested to hear from you about your beliefs / sect and what your opinion is of other Jewish sects in Israel. In particular, I would like to know your opinion regarding who you think are the least and most rational sects and wether you think that any of them are not valid.

Do you regard any Jewish sect's beliefs as crazy or are they all equally rational?
Nationalists
[info]scousekraut wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:08 pm (UTC)
The national movement of Turkey, known as the New Turks, was begun by the Doenmeh, Jews from Saloniki in Greece who moved into Turkey in the 19th century. Attaturk descended from this group.
The test for Obama
[info]jameskane wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 04:35 pm (UTC)
Obama needs to demonstrate that he is a friend of JUSTICE - that means sorting out
Israels oppression of the Palestinian people. That is the cancer he needs to extract from
the world. I am sure he understands this - problem is he may not be able to stand up to Israels
US lobby - who effectively run the show. Unfortunately for him he has no time to sort out this problem - the first time he utters the same old faintly disguised support for Israel - that will be the end of his
credibility. Its probably too late to steer the titanic away from the iceberg.
Re: The test for Obama
[info]andrelima wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 05:07 pm (UTC)
The cancer is Islam
americans
[info]tabetha1515 wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC)
As an American, I was taught to fear muslim Jihadists... But after some time has passed I have tried to make up my own mind, and what I found when I removed all the propaganda was that there are many young muslim men fighting not a holy war, but against foreign occupation... Im a young woman told to trust blindly in her government... But how can you stand behind your government when people are being tortured daily by the very same people that I am supposed to trust?
Re: americans
[info]andrelima wrote:
Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 05:18 pm (UTC)
Be coherent. Move to a muslim country. There are 56 of them for you to choose. No democracy, no women's rights, no minorities right, no free press...
Re: americans - [info]giuseppesapone - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 06:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: americans - [info]andrelima - Wednesday, 8 April 2009 at 06:10 pm (UTC) Expand
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