Terence Blacker: The new breed of bossy vicars
Perhaps it is time for Professor Richard Dawkins to scale down his famous campaign on behalf of godlessness. His great enemy, religious faith, may not be defeated but, on recent evidence, the Church of England at least is developing a talent for self-sabotage.
That stock character of English life, the local vicar, is changing. Not so long ago parish vicars tended to be easy-going, kindly, somewhat anonymous figures. Their brand of Anglicanism was light on heaven and hell, fire and brimstone, rules and punishment. Indeed, it sometimes seemed that belief itself was optional; a muzzy sense that there was probably something beyond human life was enough. Those who criticised the Church of England for lacking fervour and precision were missing the point. It was precisely the lack of passionate certainty which appealed to the English.
Now a new type of vicar, representing a more aggressive and vigorous Anglicanism, is among us. He not only sees himself as a key member of the community, but expects to be treated as such. For him (women vicars are invariably less afflicted with ego), the churches where he presides are like a somewhat exclusive club where he makes and enforces the rules. Those occasions when religious floating voters turn to the church – weddings, baptisms, funerals, Christmas – are no longer moments for inclusiveness and quiet recruitment. They are an opportunity for triumphalism and division.
Propelled by a powerful sense of his own importance, this new kind of vicar is increasingly evident in the media. A few days ago, the Rev Ed Tomlinson from the parish of St Barnabas elected to post a few thoughts on what he called "the death of death" on his website. When his views were reported in the mainstream media, he first expressed his dismay that they had been publicised beyond his blog and then – of course – blamed the press.
His original complaint was that "priests are no longer in demand" and have been replaced at funerals by a "humanist provider or ancient crumbling cleric who will do as told". Even when the Rev Ed was invited to take a funeral, the ceremony was often a disappointment. "I have then stood at the Crem like a lemon, wondering why on earth I am present at the funeral of somebody led in by the tunes of Tina Turner." He found it sad that all that many could hope for was "a poem from nan combined with a saccharine message from a pop star before being popped in the oven with no hope of resurrection".
The point here is not that the vicar is a tiny bit of a snob (nothing unusual there) but that every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the non-religious world.
This hard-eyed attitude towards those who have "no hope of resurrection" contrasts starkly with his own sense of moral superiority. Christians like him, he writes, "still have the gorgeous liturgy of the requiem mass to look forward to".
Setting aside the weirdness of a man looking forward to hearing the music at his own funeral, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that a message of haughty exclusion is being broadcast here. "Whenever I consider humanist funerals (or hotel weddings, come to that), I am only ever reminded of these words from the scripture, 'Forgive them for they know not what they do.'"
For a vicar, contemplating a funeral service of which he disapproves, to invoke Christ's words on the cross no longer seems a surprise. The church to which he belongs, once a welcoming and inclusive faith, has become self-important, defensive and censorious.
A shared pleasure in pain
Not so long ago, the idea of human beings knocking each other around in the name of personal pleasure might have been regarded as something of a sophisticated taste – the kind of thing mostly enjoyed by night-of-shame Tory MPs. Last year's High Court case involving Max Mosley helped to bring masochism into the mainstream. The judgement in favour of the plaintiff seemed to support his argument that his hobby was "harmless and private and even funny".
Now two of our best-loved dysfunctionals seem to be taking a similar line. Announcing to the world's press that he had written a song for Amy Winehouse while in jail, following a shackling case, Boy George revealed that the two singers share a taste in music. Their favourite song was "He Hit Me (It Felt Like a Kiss)", written in the early 1960s by Carole King and Gerry Goffin. Down the years, that song, with its pay-off line "He hit me, and it was good", has been something of an anthem for domestic abusers, but it may have a rival when Boy George's song for Amy is released. It is called "Your Pain Makes a Beautiful Sound".
The scales have fallen from our plates
Aristocrats from the world of food – Michelin-starred restaurateurs, gastro-celebrities, food critics – like to make the right environmentally responsible noises in their public pronouncements. It turns out that, in the case of most of them, there is remarkably little substance beyond these green emissions.
To coincide with the TV premiere of The End of the Line, a haunting documentary about the decline of world fish stocks, the environmental writer Charles Clover, on whose book the film is based, has been looking into the attitude of top restaurants when it comes to endangered fish species. The website www.fish2fork.com reveals the sad truth. Nine out of 10 restaurants are still serving at least one "fish to avoid" from over-exploited stocks. Several Michelin-starred names were among the worst offenders, cheerfully serving up blue tuna, Atlantic halibut and caviar. Marked out for particular criticism was J Sheekey of the Caprice Group.
It seems the restaurant provided confusing information as to the sustainability of its fish and may have been serving endangered species.
As for the rest us, it seems that there is a lengthening list of fish we should avoid eating. At one of the launches for The End of the Line, Mr Clover was asked for how long it would be responsible to eat any kind of fish. Five years, he said. If there was no improvement by then, it should be off the menu. Depressingly, the European Union emerges as a far worse culprit when it comes to protecting fish stocks than America.
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Comments
20% are disbelievers
40% believe in a universal force or energy
40% believe in God
The human mind is wired to believe in God. We even have a bit of the brain dedicated to process/contemplate this - known as the "God module".
So bossy vicars and Dawkins do your best...
http://uk.alpha.org/
Alpha is not an independent study.
For many people it's difficult to believe that a man is God. Most non-Christian people's idea of God is an unseen entity of unimaginable power and abilities - like the old Testament God.
So you are one of the 20% group of disbelievers - unfortunate for you!
Life is not that simple. Religion is not bound by technology - so you can forget about your primative vs modern man ideology. Its about the sum of your belief in God and actions and experiences.
No one invented God, our minds are programmed (hard wired) to believe. There is a part of the brain dedicated the processing of these thoughts, called the "God module" - deactivated in some, active in many.
Those who have this module active, they tend to be believers. Those whos module is deactivated cannot sense God and disbelieve.
In many ways, we dont choose to be believers or disbelievers, its handed to us on a plate and its traditionally seen as a gift - seem to be a good way to look at this extra sense.
You argue "we don[']t choose to be believers or disbelievers, it[']s handed to us on a plate and it['s] traditionally seen as a gift"--but gifts can be rejected if they can spell doom or catastrophe for the intellect. No baby is born believing in any supernatural powers--those are impressed on the innocent mind of the child by fairy tales (religious scriptures) and admonitions (sermons) by those in control of society through religion. The person who is truly "born again" would be an atheist.
Most are believers:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2
I'll have to bear that in mind that New Scientist is a comic book (and website) ;o)
You are a disbeliever, so thats your destiny, good luck mate...
hello. i have asked you this before, without reply. you seem to have very accurate figures. how do you arrive at them?
are they in a book somewhere or have you simply come up with them yourself? if so what research did you do?
oh, and i will also ask again. why would your god thing not just ensure everyones "god module" works the same? could it be that this also is just a figment of your imagination i wonder.
The figures are available from studies. I cant remember the actual article which gave them. Use a search engine and you will find studies.
Everyones "god module" is different, because, God states clearly in His books, that he makes each of us different in this test.
Humanity strives towards equality, but thats not the way we are created. Every one of us is dealt differing abilities and likewise attributes like faith.
Check out this article:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2
Obviously, evolutionist will say we consider God for reasons of self preservation or some similar excuse.
But at the sametime, most scientist agree that if knowledge was the size of the earth, then we know about a grains worth. So not that much really, with a very long way to go. In fact, the more we findout, the more we realise how little we know.
So each of us has to consider our options -
What if this life is a test?
What if God exists?
What if God is the stern, all powerful God of the old testament (not the bumbling, white brearded, old human guy from hollywood movies)?
What if we are to be judged by the rules and regulations defined in His books?
Why do all the middle east religions have a common theme and message, even though they are from different phases of the timeline?
Why is it that when we investigate chaos, we find its not random?
Why is it that there are so many universal systems created in what engineers would call a well engineered system, such that life can exist? Like the moon being 400 times smaller than the sun and also 400 times closer than the sun. Like water having a quirky density curve which just happens to have its highest density at 4oC so that water life may surive during major freeze events. May be its more than just a coincidence because the probability of all these things coming together are bordering on impossible!
Religion is a very personal thing. You have to follow your instincts, this is where your god module comes into play (or not) - the physical bit of your brain which is either active or not. There are some who will not be able to sense God and there will be many who can. Thats life!
Obviously, there are external factors too. Many (believing and disbelieving) people lead very busy lives and have little time (whilst they are young) to stop and think about the bigger picture. There is always old age to stop and think about such matters...
http://www.patcondell.net/index.htm
Each to his own destiny. Believe or dont believe doesnt matter to anyone - we will be judged individually, not as group.
Belief doesnt mean God exists.
Disbelief doesnt mean God doesnt exist.
What will happen, will happen, that's the reality of it...
"What will happen, will happen, that's the reality of it"
exactly, and this reality you speak of has no need for a god.
Whether we need God or not is irrelevant. We are not in control (this is the bit which most people dont get, dont think about), we are just actors, who play our part.
If God exists then we will be judged according to His rules and if He doesnt then it doesnt matter.
This is why those, with the God module active, are called believers and not knowers.
... it seems like just any old person thinks they can die these days, eh? Gone are the days when you could rely on trained professionals dying. Now everyone thinks they can do it - and bring along their rag-tag-and-bobtail relations with them.
How I sympathise with the Reverend Tomlinson! He's just the kind of arsehole that's driven the Anglican Church into the hands of Rome.
why anyone would want the help / advice of an adult that lives a delusional life with an imaginary friend i cannot fathom. they also must be really disturbed.
"Who am I to arbitrate about what is good taste, and appropriate in anycase? "
i couldn't agree more!! well said that man.
upset are we? well, you'll get over it.
in reality i wasn't having a go at one vicar i was having ago at them all, and the priests and the imams and the evangelists in fact anyone who preaches this religious tripe. they all are delusional.
as far as agreeing with "another vicar" is concerned you obviously didn't read the quote i put in the post which i repeat here:
"Who am I to arbitrate about what is good taste, and appropriate in anycase?"
you need to read it an give it some thought. you might then "get it"
anyhow mr.angry, you're pretty handy at dishing out insults yourself aren't you? accusing me of being unthinking and not having a mind. pot calling pan springs to mind.
My solution: Keep god as a word, but add another o to make it good. I like old churches. They have an aura of peace about them. I don't need to believe in a deity to find that inner peace. It's about good and evil, not heaven and hell. And let vicars preach that message instead of banging on about religion. That's my thought for the day, anyway.
That really made me laugh :)
Three years ago I retired from a parish blessed with the bossiest bunch of parishioners in Christendom. When i arrived i was told, i repeat, TOLD, I hope you know that you are running a social club; i put up with this kind of thing for two years before challenging this group of women.
As for women (priests) being less bossy?
It probably seems that way because there are less of them.
Let me quote. from a disaffected parishioner who came to my parish because she (like many) could no longer put up with 'that bossy woman priest.'
"I want you all to stand up when I begin the service"
"I am the managing Director" she once told them from the pulpit"
This priest demanded £600 worth of new robes - and got them - had the heating every day of the week in the church. (her offices took twenty minutes in the mornings) Running up a heating bill three times the previous.
I always supported equality in the church - the problem is that many women crave the same as men - POWER - Strange - what what is that Jesus said when asked about'Lording it over other' - "It shall not be thus among you."
David
http://www.patcondell.net/index.htm
You ignorant lefty PRAT!
Pat Condell loaths the BNP as much as he loaths organized religion.
Just because he attacks certain (note - not all) Muslims for their narrow-minded, misogynist, homophobic bigotry that does not mean he is a racist - Islam is a *religion*, not a *race*.
He also pours considerable scorn on the Christian Church - particularly the Vatican (maybe you just haven't seen those videos?). Would that make him anti-white, or anti-Italian?!
Why don't you try actually *listening* to some of his monologues with your ears and your *mind* open, instead of reflexively dismissing him as racist the moment he says something uncomplimentary about certain Muslims?
Condell may well have some right-wing supporters, but that is not his fault - it is the fault of the religions he attacks, for creating a climate in which liberal left-wingers like Condell now feel compelled to voice opinions with which those at the opposite end of the political spectrum can agree. Condell is aware of this, and no doubt wishes this were not the case, but he cannot compromise his honesty just to distance himself from fanatics.
Religion can make some very strange bedfellows among its opponents....
This hard-eyed attitude towards those who have "no hope of resurrection" contrasts starkly with his own sense of moral superiority."
Could be levelled at Dawkins too (mutatis mutandis).
Of course, his religious opponents try to claim moral superiority (both to Dawkins and all nonreligious people), but this is the last resort of those who cannot demonstrate any other kind of superiority that might actually be meaningful, measurable and provable; "They might be richer, smarter or more knowledgeable than me, but I can claim to be morally superior to them!" is what every poor, stupid, ignorant religious person likes to believe (with the encouragement of their preachers/imams/rabbis), but it is a hollow boast and a delusional conceit.
Speaking as a trained (theoretical) physicist myself, I have no problem with evolutionary biology. True, it might lack the experimental precision amnd mathematical refinement of physics, but then all other sciences fall short of physics in this respect. And don't forget that biology is dealing with very complex interacting systems, which are possibly not amenable to the same reductionist methods that can be applied to physics. But as a good, over-arching, holistic description of biological diversity as a result of the interactions of gene mutations with changing environmental conditions, evolution is a very elegant and powerful theory, and I have no doubt that it is true.
And I would suggest that there are many physicists who applaud Dawkins' efforts to boldly speak the truth about religion, and to defend science from the repeated attempts by religious fanatics to challenge it, corrupt it and undermine it with ideas like creationism and intelligent design. Dawkin's is not just defending his own subject, evolutionary biology, but all of science, and doing so quite valiantly. He deserves the support of all scientists in his efforts.
There may be instances where morality and intellect are separated, such as the doctrines that led to Auschwitz, Stalin?s purges or apartheid. I prefer to strive for an intellectually rigorous morality.
As regards your statement of how religious people respond to Dawkins, I have read enough reasoned engagement with Dawkins?s ideas to know that it has nothing to do with an alleged ?moral superiority?.
Your diatribe about ?poor, stupid ignorant religious people? is exactly the point I was making in my earlier mail: ?every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the (non-) religious world?.
Of course superiority is a value judgment, and it is quite natural that different people's value judgements may differ. The important question, however, concerns the relative *validity* of different people's value jdugements. There is no universal law which states that all value judgements should be of equal merit. I suggest that they are not.
[There may be instances where morality and intellect are separated, such as the doctrines that led to Auschwitz, Stalin?s purges or apartheid. I prefer to strive for an intellectually rigorous morality.]
In what way are you attempting to equate intellectual judgments with a lack of humanity and morality in the cases you cite? I could equally well argue that the inhumanity and immorality that each case displays is evidence of a *lack* of sound intellectual judgement. 'Intellectually rigorous morality' is an automatically self-consistent concept; intellectually consistent immorality is not (not, at least, to anyone who cares to analyse the intellectual component of morality to sufficient depth).
[As regards your statement of how religious people respond to Dawkins, I have read enough reasoned engagement with Dawkins?s ideas to know that it has nothing to do with an alleged ?moral superiority?.]
Indeed, because Dawkins is not concerned with moral arguments and moral positions; he is simply concerned with the *truth*. No one ever said that the true nature of reality had to accord with our moral predilictions; to presume that this must be the case is to impose extremely anthropocentric constraints upon reality that it is not obliged to adhere to.
[Your diatribe about ?poor, stupid ignorant religious people? is exactly the point I was making in my earlier mail: ?every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the (non-) religious world?.]
And every syllable that devoutly religious people utter does not betray an equally *iron certainty* in their own rightness?! The fundamental difference between Dawkins' certainty and theirs is that he can justify his certainty, by appeal to logic and evidence, while they cannot justify theirs by appeal to anything but ancient superstition and mystical delusion And in these circumstances, is it not understndable that Dawkins - and every logical, rational person - should not feel a certain contempt for those who adhere to beliefs that have no rational, evidential foundation?.
excellent, couldn't have said it better myself.
Religious entities, if registered as charities, must have charitable aims. Yes, they may be exempt from corporation tax, which is a tax on profits, but charities aren't there to make profits and all earnings are retained within the charity for charitable purposes. However, unlike businesses, they are unable to recover input VAT.
Since there is a job type of "Minister of Religion" on the HMRC website, I would presume that they do pay income tax.
Anyone who is a member of either the Church of England or the Church of Scotland, or in fact of any religion, will find your remarks equally divisive and just as much a message of hate. Furthermore, on the issue of separation of church and state, you will find that the Roman Catholic Church, the Baptist Union, the Methodist Church etc... are separate from the state, exist now and will continue to exist. Even if you outlaw Christianity, there will still be self-proclaiming Christians.
Back on topic again; I have heard mention of vicars trying to use examples from Doctor Who to explain their sermons, which to me is just as bad as people appealing to Tina Turner for spiritual input at a Christian funeral. The basis for the words and themes though well intentioned is not biblical and not necessarily Christian. This just further secularises the church and makes it less relevant.
The Church of England (Anglican) is not separate from the state, for the Queen still is "Protector of the [official] faith" a title inherited from Henry VIII who wrote a treatise against Martin Luther and was awarded the distinction by the papacy--before his lust for a woman pushed him into breaking with Rome. Other churches still hold invocations in names of their deities on numerous secular occasions and before various civil groups, belying your contention that there is a separation.
There is no "Minister of Religion" on Her Majesties Revenue and Customs website, but has pdfs of notes on the functions of ministers of religion. But there is http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/sdltmanu
The secularisation of churches (all) hopefully will make religion less relevant, for at this time too many people waste too much time and energy and resources in the name of their religion when they could be bettering the lot of their neighbors.
I'm not sure how you responded so quickly. Anyway, in the unlikely event that you check this page again:
I don't agree with your summary of the Bible (not that you expected me to).
"Minister of Religion" is a term used on many official documents as to be more inclusive than Priest or Vicar so as to include Rabbi, Imam, Monk etc... Anyway, as far as tax is concerned, Ministers of Religion are usually subject to income tax just like everyone else. On the HMRC website, try searching for SA102M, which is a self-assessment form for "Ministers of Religion".
Looking at the basic 3 strands of tax - Income, Corporate, Value-Added, you will notice a theme of profit making. As I stated charities do not make profits, instead surpluses are retained for charitable purposes. Being tax free is not necessarily such a great thing as it implies restrictions of usage and application.
For definitions of Charitable Purposes you are best to check the website for the Charity Commission in England and Wales. The Charities Act 2006 updated and changed the definition of what is a charitable purpose.
I was not contending that there is a separation, I know that the Church of England is established and therefore entwined with the state. However, I was pointing out that not all churches are established and they are just as organised.
In the USA there is a separation, which frees the churches up to do more lobbying and probably be more influential than their counterparts in the UK. I don't think that a separation would necessarily achieve what you want it to.
Jack Harrison, Cambridgeshire
Love, John Shepherd
"sectarian poison"
Well, I guess we all know which side your communion wafer is buttered, don't we, John? :o)
"There is only one philosophy which has successfully influenced 2000 years of history and it is well organised , well funded and maintains its powerbase because people who should know better always underestimate it."
You could almost be describing the mafia (if the mafia had been 2000 years old), or the Illuminati (if it actually existed), or Nazism (which was well-organized, well-funded and fatally underestimated). And just because a philosophy is well-organised, well-funded and maintains its powerbase over 2000 years, it does not necessarily follow that that philosophy itself is intrinsically good, truthful and benign. And I would suggest that Christianity is, in fact, none of those things.