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Terence Blacker: The new breed of bossy vicars

Perhaps it is time for Professor Richard Dawkins to scale down his famous campaign on behalf of godlessness. His great enemy, religious faith, may not be defeated but, on recent evidence, the Church of England at least is developing a talent for self-sabotage.

That stock character of English life, the local vicar, is changing. Not so long ago parish vicars tended to be easy-going, kindly, somewhat anonymous figures. Their brand of Anglicanism was light on heaven and hell, fire and brimstone, rules and punishment. Indeed, it sometimes seemed that belief itself was optional; a muzzy sense that there was probably something beyond human life was enough. Those who criticised the Church of England for lacking fervour and precision were missing the point. It was precisely the lack of passionate certainty which appealed to the English.

Now a new type of vicar, representing a more aggressive and vigorous Anglicanism, is among us. He not only sees himself as a key member of the community, but expects to be treated as such. For him (women vicars are invariably less afflicted with ego), the churches where he presides are like a somewhat exclusive club where he makes and enforces the rules. Those occasions when religious floating voters turn to the church – weddings, baptisms, funerals, Christmas – are no longer moments for inclusiveness and quiet recruitment. They are an opportunity for triumphalism and division.

Propelled by a powerful sense of his own importance, this new kind of vicar is increasingly evident in the media. A few days ago, the Rev Ed Tomlinson from the parish of St Barnabas elected to post a few thoughts on what he called "the death of death" on his website. When his views were reported in the mainstream media, he first expressed his dismay that they had been publicised beyond his blog and then – of course – blamed the press.

His original complaint was that "priests are no longer in demand" and have been replaced at funerals by a "humanist provider or ancient crumbling cleric who will do as told". Even when the Rev Ed was invited to take a funeral, the ceremony was often a disappointment. "I have then stood at the Crem like a lemon, wondering why on earth I am present at the funeral of somebody led in by the tunes of Tina Turner." He found it sad that all that many could hope for was "a poem from nan combined with a saccharine message from a pop star before being popped in the oven with no hope of resurrection".

The point here is not that the vicar is a tiny bit of a snob (nothing unusual there) but that every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the non-religious world.

This hard-eyed attitude towards those who have "no hope of resurrection" contrasts starkly with his own sense of moral superiority. Christians like him, he writes, "still have the gorgeous liturgy of the requiem mass to look forward to".

Setting aside the weirdness of a man looking forward to hearing the music at his own funeral, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that a message of haughty exclusion is being broadcast here. "Whenever I consider humanist funerals (or hotel weddings, come to that), I am only ever reminded of these words from the scripture, 'Forgive them for they know not what they do.'"

For a vicar, contemplating a funeral service of which he disapproves, to invoke Christ's words on the cross no longer seems a surprise. The church to which he belongs, once a welcoming and inclusive faith, has become self-important, defensive and censorious.

A shared pleasure in pain

Not so long ago, the idea of human beings knocking each other around in the name of personal pleasure might have been regarded as something of a sophisticated taste – the kind of thing mostly enjoyed by night-of-shame Tory MPs. Last year's High Court case involving Max Mosley helped to bring masochism into the mainstream. The judgement in favour of the plaintiff seemed to support his argument that his hobby was "harmless and private and even funny".

Now two of our best-loved dysfunctionals seem to be taking a similar line. Announcing to the world's press that he had written a song for Amy Winehouse while in jail, following a shackling case, Boy George revealed that the two singers share a taste in music. Their favourite song was "He Hit Me (It Felt Like a Kiss)", written in the early 1960s by Carole King and Gerry Goffin. Down the years, that song, with its pay-off line "He hit me, and it was good", has been something of an anthem for domestic abusers, but it may have a rival when Boy George's song for Amy is released. It is called "Your Pain Makes a Beautiful Sound".

The scales have fallen from our plates

Aristocrats from the world of food – Michelin-starred restaurateurs, gastro-celebrities, food critics – like to make the right environmentally responsible noises in their public pronouncements. It turns out that, in the case of most of them, there is remarkably little substance beyond these green emissions.

To coincide with the TV premiere of The End of the Line, a haunting documentary about the decline of world fish stocks, the environmental writer Charles Clover, on whose book the film is based, has been looking into the attitude of top restaurants when it comes to endangered fish species. The website www.fish2fork.com reveals the sad truth. Nine out of 10 restaurants are still serving at least one "fish to avoid" from over-exploited stocks. Several Michelin-starred names were among the worst offenders, cheerfully serving up blue tuna, Atlantic halibut and caviar. Marked out for particular criticism was J Sheekey of the Caprice Group.

It seems the restaurant provided confusing information as to the sustainability of its fish and may have been serving endangered species.

As for the rest us, it seems that there is a lengthening list of fish we should avoid eating. At one of the launches for The End of the Line, Mr Clover was asked for how long it would be responsible to eat any kind of fish. Five years, he said. If there was no improvement by then, it should be off the menu. Depressingly, the European Union emerges as a far worse culprit when it comes to protecting fish stocks than America.

More from Terence Blacker

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How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 11:56 pm (UTC)

20% are disbelievers
40% believe in a universal force or energy
40% believe in God

The human mind is wired to believe in God. We even have a bit of the brain dedicated to process/contemplate this - known as the "God module".

So bossy vicars and Dawkins do your best...
Re: How mankind believes
[info]simonc0 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:39 am (UTC)
Not according to this survey by Alpha ;). Answer the poll to see the results so far.
http://uk.alpha.org/
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:55 am (UTC)

Alpha is not an independent study.

For many people it's difficult to believe that a man is God. Most non-Christian people's idea of God is an unseen entity of unimaginable power and abilities - like the old Testament God.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:06 pm (UTC)
The gods (in the original languages it is a plural noun) of the Old Testament were petty tyrants, who relied on mortals (men, primarily) to murder and disenable those who opposed them (Joshua to Solomon, etc). They had "unimaginable power and abilities" only because a corrupt rabbinate said so to a gullible, uneducated group, and fashioned laws after those of ancient Babylon--with nothing original in their texts plagarized from far older sources. Mortals invented the myth of god(s)/goddess(es) so that a few would not need to work but grow fat off the labors of others. Religion is the primary curse of a primitive people. Not until this curse is vanquished will any mortal be free.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:31 pm (UTC)

So you are one of the 20% group of disbelievers - unfortunate for you!

Life is not that simple. Religion is not bound by technology - so you can forget about your primative vs modern man ideology. Its about the sum of your belief in God and actions and experiences.

No one invented God, our minds are programmed (hard wired) to believe. There is a part of the brain dedicated the processing of these thoughts, called the "God module" - deactivated in some, active in many.

Those who have this module active, they tend to be believers. Those whos module is deactivated cannot sense God and disbelieve.

In many ways, we dont choose to be believers or disbelievers, its handed to us on a plate and its traditionally seen as a gift - seem to be a good way to look at this extra sense.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:37 pm (UTC)
For hundreds of years intelligent men have known that all mortals are born tabula rasa (their minds are a blank slate). It is culture and civilization's various leaders that write on to this blank slate the mythology of god(s)/goddess(es) and the role of religion. There never has been a single god in any religion (even Yahweh married Asherah, and Christianity has three gods: the Trinity), and the various evil deeds of the deities show them at best monsters, not loving and paternal being.

You argue "we don[']t choose to be believers or disbelievers, it[']s handed to us on a plate and it['s] traditionally seen as a gift"--but gifts can be rejected if they can spell doom or catastrophe for the intellect. No baby is born believing in any supernatural powers--those are impressed on the innocent mind of the child by fairy tales (religious scriptures) and admonitions (sermons) by those in control of society through religion. The person who is truly "born again" would be an atheist.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:02 pm (UTC)
Re: How mankind believes
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:12 pm (UTC)
your citation is not a scientific journal, nor does science or psychology support its contention. The brain evolves over a period of time, and intelligence is the factor of what is used and for what purpose. Religion limits input and has a smattering of exportation, for mind control has long been the weapon of religion from the Spanish Inquisition to the early days of the christian movement that was not a church until it was decreed by the pagan Emperor Constantine who called the council of Nicea in an attempt to stop the feuding and warfare of warrior-bishops who destroyed entire communities in debates of what a "god" was (there was no consensus on whether or not Jesus was a god, or if a son was he eternal or adopted, etc) and mythology of Christianity comes from the rituals of Mithra and other gods and goddesses far older, but each had one thing in common--to destroy dissent and limit debate. Religion has long been the greatest enemy of this world as now seen in the rabid slaughter in Iran, and by the various religious factions in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and even Ireland, where only have Protestants and Catholics once more determined to settle for a precarious peace. If religion was erased from this planet and the various books such as the bible, Torah, and Koran were accurately labeled as fiction and put into the adult section, there would be greater peace and harmony on this planet. To see the absurdity of religion, read the paperback "The Family" and how it has transmogrified USA politics with the machinations and ministrations of such miscreants as Senators Grassley (IA), Ensign (NV), Imhofe (OK) and others. Religion is the world's devil.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:22 pm (UTC)

I'll have to bear that in mind that New Scientist is a comic book (and website) ;o)

You are a disbeliever, so thats your destiny, good luck mate...
Re: How mankind believes
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 06:04 pm (UTC)
I am aware of what New Scientist is... but why you would site it is beyond me. But that's okay. Each individual makes his or her own choices--there is no "unseen hand" except in books (such as Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations") and that is because in byegone days, belief centered around "destiny" (that controlled the thinking of Napoleon, Hitler, George W. Bush, Tony Blair) and others who never understood or accepted reality. Reality has no written course, and each person is responsible for his or her own course that he or she charts independent of all others. Hopefully the individual will chart a course that will benefit mortalkind and not be solely for self-gratification and immediate consumption. Good luck to you, too, mate.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:55 am (UTC)


hello. i have asked you this before, without reply. you seem to have very accurate figures. how do you arrive at them?
are they in a book somewhere or have you simply come up with them yourself? if so what research did you do?
oh, and i will also ask again. why would your god thing not just ensure everyones "god module" works the same? could it be that this also is just a figment of your imagination i wonder.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:41 am (UTC)

The figures are available from studies. I cant remember the actual article which gave them. Use a search engine and you will find studies.

Everyones "god module" is different, because, God states clearly in His books, that he makes each of us different in this test.

Humanity strives towards equality, but thats not the way we are created. Every one of us is dealt differing abilities and likewise attributes like faith.

Check out this article:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126941.700-born-believers-how-your-brain-creates-god.html

Obviously, evolutionist will say we consider God for reasons of self preservation or some similar excuse.

But at the sametime, most scientist agree that if knowledge was the size of the earth, then we know about a grains worth. So not that much really, with a very long way to go. In fact, the more we findout, the more we realise how little we know.

So each of us has to consider our options -
What if this life is a test?
What if God exists?
What if God is the stern, all powerful God of the old testament (not the bumbling, white brearded, old human guy from hollywood movies)?
What if we are to be judged by the rules and regulations defined in His books?
Why do all the middle east religions have a common theme and message, even though they are from different phases of the timeline?
Why is it that when we investigate chaos, we find its not random?
Why is it that there are so many universal systems created in what engineers would call a well engineered system, such that life can exist? Like the moon being 400 times smaller than the sun and also 400 times closer than the sun. Like water having a quirky density curve which just happens to have its highest density at 4oC so that water life may surive during major freeze events. May be its more than just a coincidence because the probability of all these things coming together are bordering on impossible!

Religion is a very personal thing. You have to follow your instincts, this is where your god module comes into play (or not) - the physical bit of your brain which is either active or not. There are some who will not be able to sense God and there will be many who can. Thats life!

Obviously, there are external factors too. Many (believing and disbelieving) people lead very busy lives and have little time (whilst they are young) to stop and think about the bigger picture. There is always old age to stop and think about such matters...
Re: How mankind believes
[info]georgesign wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:32 am (UTC)
Religion and it's reasons are best summed up by Pat Condell. Every word a gem.

http://www.patcondell.net/index.html
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:48 am (UTC)

Each to his own destiny. Believe or dont believe doesnt matter to anyone - we will be judged individually, not as group.

Belief doesnt mean God exists.
Disbelief doesnt mean God doesnt exist.
What will happen, will happen, that's the reality of it...
Re: How mankind believes
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:03 pm (UTC)

"What will happen, will happen, that's the reality of it"

exactly, and this reality you speak of has no need for a god.
Re: How mankind believes
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:11 pm (UTC)

Whether we need God or not is irrelevant. We are not in control (this is the bit which most people dont get, dont think about), we are just actors, who play our part.

If God exists then we will be judged according to His rules and if He doesnt then it doesnt matter.

This is why those, with the God module active, are called believers and not knowers.
Dearie me...
[info]reinertorheit wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:36 am (UTC)

... it seems like just any old person thinks they can die these days, eh? Gone are the days when you could rely on trained professionals dying. Now everyone thinks they can do it - and bring along their rag-tag-and-bobtail relations with them.

How I sympathise with the Reverend Tomlinson! He's just the kind of arsehole that's driven the Anglican Church into the hands of Rome.
Ed Tomlinson doesn't speak for us all
[info]jgkent wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:36 am (UTC)
There have always been "bossy vicars" - it's not a new phenomenon. There have also always been vicars who genuinely want to be of use to their local communities with no strings. As an ordinary parish priest, one of the reasons I like the Church of England is that I am available to everyone in the parish. A great deal of my work is with those who aren't regular churchgoers, but want me to help on a particular occasion - a marriage or funeral for example. Most priests, like me, will want to make these occasions personal and will want to help the families to have the service that reflects their tastes - Tina Turner music included if that's what they want. Of course people's choices don't always match what I would choose, but it's not about me, it's about them. You paint a very one-sided picture here, Terence. Ed Tomlinson (I am in the same Diocese as him and have come across him quite often) has very definite views on this, as on a number of other things. But he doesn't speak for all of us, or even, I would say, most of us.
Re: Ed Tomlinson doesn't speak for us all
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:57 am (UTC)

why anyone would want the help / advice of an adult that lives a delusional life with an imaginary friend i cannot fathom. they also must be really disturbed.
I am not Ed Tomlinson
[info]mm_1902 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:48 am (UTC)
I am a Vicar who could not disagree more with Ed Tomlinson. Personally I have been appalled by some of the Christian funerals I have been to, which almost seem to ignore the life of the person whose death is being grieved and the family or friends who are grieving, and I have been to secular funerals which have been a wonderful celebration of someone's life and personality. My aim in funerals I conduct is to do both - to remember the life of the person, warts and all, and to bring the message of hope in the resurrection of Jesus. There is plenty of scope to do that in the service and still have time for the Tina Turner and Nan's poems so important to the family, and therefore important to leave IN the service. Who am I to arbitrate about what is good taste, and appropriate in anycase?
Re: I am not Ed Tomlinson
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:58 am (UTC)

"Who am I to arbitrate about what is good taste, and appropriate in anycase? "

i couldn't agree more!! well said that man.
Re: I am not Ed Tomlinson
[info]vangryman wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:01 pm (UTC)
freeethinker (more like notthinking). After insulting one vicor calling him delusional you then totally agree with another vicor saying the same thing. Make your mind up if you have one!
Re: I am not Ed Tomlinson
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:38 pm (UTC)
"freeethinker (more like notthinking). After insulting one vicor calling him delusional you then totally agree with another vicor saying the same thing. Make your mind up if you have one!"

upset are we? well, you'll get over it.

in reality i wasn't having a go at one vicar i was having ago at them all, and the priests and the imams and the evangelists in fact anyone who preaches this religious tripe. they all are delusional.

as far as agreeing with "another vicar" is concerned you obviously didn't read the quote i put in the post which i repeat here:

"Who am I to arbitrate about what is good taste, and appropriate in anycase?"

you need to read it an give it some thought. you might then "get it"

anyhow mr.angry, you're pretty handy at dishing out insults yourself aren't you? accusing me of being unthinking and not having a mind. pot calling pan springs to mind.

Until I get proof there is no god, not even with a capital letter
[info]whostoletyke wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:44 am (UTC)
I watched Richard Dawkins' interview Archbishop Rowan Williams recently and the latter was woolly and unconvincing. Dawkins' other interviewees, many of them American bible thumpers, were quite ominous in their swaggering, blustering countenance and speech, as if they need to MAKE unbelievers believe, by force, if necessary.

My solution: Keep god as a word, but add another o to make it good. I like old churches. They have an aura of peace about them. I don't need to believe in a deity to find that inner peace. It's about good and evil, not heaven and hell. And let vicars preach that message instead of banging on about religion. That's my thought for the day, anyway.
[info]dogsolitude_v2 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:26 am (UTC)
"Setting aside the weirdness of a man looking forward to hearing the music at his own funeral..."

That really made me laugh :)
Really?
[info]rebukemenot wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 10:23 am (UTC)
Where are you coming from?
Three years ago I retired from a parish blessed with the bossiest bunch of parishioners in Christendom. When i arrived i was told, i repeat, TOLD, I hope you know that you are running a social club; i put up with this kind of thing for two years before challenging this group of women.

As for women (priests) being less bossy?

It probably seems that way because there are less of them.

Let me quote. from a disaffected parishioner who came to my parish because she (like many) could no longer put up with 'that bossy woman priest.'

"I want you all to stand up when I begin the service"
"I am the managing Director" she once told them from the pulpit"
This priest demanded £600 worth of new robes - and got them - had the heating every day of the week in the church. (her offices took twenty minutes in the mornings) Running up a heating bill three times the previous.
I always supported equality in the church - the problem is that many women crave the same as men - POWER - Strange - what what is that Jesus said when asked about'Lording it over other' - "It shall not be thus among you."


David
Re: Really?
[info]georgesign wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:30 am (UTC)
This is the best summing up of where religion is coming from

http://www.patcondell.net/index.html
Re: Really?
[info]world_of_water wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:43 am (UTC)
Why do you keep spamming this board with that link? Are you one of Condell's many BNP loving groupies?
Re: Really?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:31 pm (UTC)
"one of Condell's BNP loving groupies"???

You ignorant lefty PRAT!

Pat Condell loaths the BNP as much as he loaths organized religion.

Just because he attacks certain (note - not all) Muslims for their narrow-minded, misogynist, homophobic bigotry that does not mean he is a racist - Islam is a *religion*, not a *race*.

He also pours considerable scorn on the Christian Church - particularly the Vatican (maybe you just haven't seen those videos?). Would that make him anti-white, or anti-Italian?!

Why don't you try actually *listening* to some of his monologues with your ears and your *mind* open, instead of reflexively dismissing him as racist the moment he says something uncomplimentary about certain Muslims?
Re: Really?
[info]world_of_water wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:35 pm (UTC)
I know Condell's views I was just referring to the fact that many of his groupies are BNP supporters, neo nazis and other haters. Calm down dear chap, nowhere did I call him a racist.
Re: Really?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:55 pm (UTC)
Glad to hear it.

Condell may well have some right-wing supporters, but that is not his fault - it is the fault of the religions he attacks, for creating a climate in which liberal left-wingers like Condell now feel compelled to voice opinions with which those at the opposite end of the political spectrum can agree. Condell is aware of this, and no doubt wishes this were not the case, but he cannot compromise his honesty just to distance himself from fanatics.

Religion can make some very strange bedfellows among its opponents....
All proselytes
[info]ratty_drawers wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:12 pm (UTC)
"The point here is not that the vicar is a tiny bit of a snob (nothing unusual there) but that every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the non-religious world.

This hard-eyed attitude towards those who have "no hope of resurrection" contrasts starkly with his own sense of moral superiority."

Could be levelled at Dawkins too (mutatis mutandis).
Re: All proselytes
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:42 pm (UTC)
There is a difference between moral superiority and intellectual superiority. Dawkins can claim the latter with regard to most - and probably all - of his religious opponents.

Of course, his religious opponents try to claim moral superiority (both to Dawkins and all nonreligious people), but this is the last resort of those who cannot demonstrate any other kind of superiority that might actually be meaningful, measurable and provable; "They might be richer, smarter or more knowledgeable than me, but I can claim to be morally superior to them!" is what every poor, stupid, ignorant religious person likes to believe (with the encouragement of their preachers/imams/rabbis), but it is a hollow boast and a delusional conceit.
Re: All proselytes
[info]tph197 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:09 pm (UTC)
Physicists regard evolutionary biology as on the same level as Delia Smiths cookery classes. And poor old Dawkins as obsessive nutter who brings science into disrepute.
Re: All proselytes
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 11:05 am (UTC)
That's a rather sweeping assertion about all physicists! How do you know this - have you asked them?

Speaking as a trained (theoretical) physicist myself, I have no problem with evolutionary biology. True, it might lack the experimental precision amnd mathematical refinement of physics, but then all other sciences fall short of physics in this respect. And don't forget that biology is dealing with very complex interacting systems, which are possibly not amenable to the same reductionist methods that can be applied to physics. But as a good, over-arching, holistic description of biological diversity as a result of the interactions of gene mutations with changing environmental conditions, evolution is a very elegant and powerful theory, and I have no doubt that it is true.

And I would suggest that there are many physicists who applaud Dawkins' efforts to boldly speak the truth about religion, and to defend science from the repeated attempts by religious fanatics to challenge it, corrupt it and undermine it with ideas like creationism and intelligent design. Dawkin's is not just defending his own subject, evolutionary biology, but all of science, and doing so quite valiantly. He deserves the support of all scientists in his efforts.
Re: All proselytes
[info]ratty_drawers wrote:
Friday, 23 October 2009 at 01:29 pm (UTC)
?Superiority? is a value judgment, and your values and mine differ.

There may be instances where morality and intellect are separated, such as the doctrines that led to Auschwitz, Stalin?s purges or apartheid. I prefer to strive for an intellectually rigorous morality.

As regards your statement of how religious people respond to Dawkins, I have read enough reasoned engagement with Dawkins?s ideas to know that it has nothing to do with an alleged ?moral superiority?.

Your diatribe about ?poor, stupid ignorant religious people? is exactly the point I was making in my earlier mail: ?every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the (non-) religious world?.
Re: All proselytes
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Saturday, 24 October 2009 at 03:58 am (UTC)
[Superiority? is a value judgment, and your values and mine differ.]

Of course superiority is a value judgment, and it is quite natural that different people's value judgements may differ. The important question, however, concerns the relative *validity* of different people's value jdugements. There is no universal law which states that all value judgements should be of equal merit. I suggest that they are not.

[There may be instances where morality and intellect are separated, such as the doctrines that led to Auschwitz, Stalin?s purges or apartheid. I prefer to strive for an intellectually rigorous morality.]

In what way are you attempting to equate intellectual judgments with a lack of humanity and morality in the cases you cite? I could equally well argue that the inhumanity and immorality that each case displays is evidence of a *lack* of sound intellectual judgement. 'Intellectually rigorous morality' is an automatically self-consistent concept; intellectually consistent immorality is not (not, at least, to anyone who cares to analyse the intellectual component of morality to sufficient depth).

[As regards your statement of how religious people respond to Dawkins, I have read enough reasoned engagement with Dawkins?s ideas to know that it has nothing to do with an alleged ?moral superiority?.]

Indeed, because Dawkins is not concerned with moral arguments and moral positions; he is simply concerned with the *truth*. No one ever said that the true nature of reality had to accord with our moral predilictions; to presume that this must be the case is to impose extremely anthropocentric constraints upon reality that it is not obliged to adhere to.

[Your diatribe about ?poor, stupid ignorant religious people? is exactly the point I was making in my earlier mail: ?every syllable he writes reveals an iron certainty in his own rightness, even a sort of contempt for the (non-) religious world?.]

And every syllable that devoutly religious people utter does not betray an equally *iron certainty* in their own rightness?! The fundamental difference between Dawkins' certainty and theirs is that he can justify his certainty, by appeal to logic and evidence, while they cannot justify theirs by appeal to anything but ancient superstition and mystical delusion And in these circumstances, is it not understndable that Dawkins - and every logical, rational person - should not feel a certain contempt for those who adhere to beliefs that have no rational, evidential foundation?.


Re: All proselytes
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Saturday, 24 October 2009 at 04:09 am (UTC)
Sorry - unintentional double negative. Should have read: "...is it not understndable that Dawkins - and every logical, rational person - should feel a certain contempt for those...[etc]"
The church must be separated from the state
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:02 pm (UTC)
and all religious entities must pay their fare share of taxes, their officiants, regardless if vicars, priests, pastors, rabbis, mullahs, etc, must not only pay their fare share of taxes but be treated like all other people: without preference or superior recognition. Religion has long been a parasite in history, initially invented to secure a livelihood for those who refused to work and felt it better to preach mythology to rob from those who worked. Religion has no place in society. Religion is the greatest curse of civilization, and the Church of England and Church of Scotland are two institutions that no longer have value or meaning, but set up divisions between people as their prelates preach antiquated messages of hate.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:15 pm (UTC)
Eloquently put :o)
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:40 pm (UTC)
Tax the churches--their leaders and subordinates, and their property--and get the great nation of the UK out of debt. Thank you for your comment.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:49 pm (UTC)

excellent, couldn't have said it better myself.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]fallenpedant wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:35 pm (UTC)

Religious entities, if registered as charities, must have charitable aims. Yes, they may be exempt from corporation tax, which is a tax on profits, but charities aren't there to make profits and all earnings are retained within the charity for charitable purposes. However, unlike businesses, they are unable to recover input VAT.

Since there is a job type of "Minister of Religion" on the HMRC website, I would presume that they do pay income tax.

Anyone who is a member of either the Church of England or the Church of Scotland, or in fact of any religion, will find your remarks equally divisive and just as much a message of hate. Furthermore, on the issue of separation of church and state, you will find that the Roman Catholic Church, the Baptist Union, the Methodist Church etc... are separate from the state, exist now and will continue to exist. Even if you outlaw Christianity, there will still be self-proclaiming Christians.


Back on topic again; I have heard mention of vicars trying to use examples from Doctor Who to explain their sermons, which to me is just as bad as people appealing to Tina Turner for spiritual input at a Christian funeral. The basis for the words and themes though well intentioned is not biblical and not necessarily Christian. This just further secularises the church and makes it less relevant.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC)
The bible is, like the Koran, a collection of far older tales and legends (Samson comes from the Greek theology of Hercules; and Jesus' voyage on the turbulent sea is a repeat of Homer's Odysseus' trials on the ocean, etc), and thus there is nothing "Christian"--for that idea and entity did not come into existence until the fourth century--and then by imperial decree--setting off numerous blood baths between rival factions and cults.We have the records, left by Eusebius and others, of the tribulations of Sabellians, Manicheans, Monatists, and numerous others, all who claimed to have the final message of a crucified god--although history records more than 17 such saviours.

The Church of England (Anglican) is not separate from the state, for the Queen still is "Protector of the [official] faith" a title inherited from Henry VIII who wrote a treatise against Martin Luther and was awarded the distinction by the papacy--before his lust for a woman pushed him into breaking with Rome. Other churches still hold invocations in names of their deities on numerous secular occasions and before various civil groups, belying your contention that there is a separation.

There is no "Minister of Religion" on Her Majesties Revenue and Customs website, but has pdfs of notes on the functions of ministers of religion. But there is http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/sdltmanual/sdltm26010a.htm which notes that "the advancement of religion is considered a charitable purpose." and is tax free. The "advancement" is a tie between church and state in every legal definition and is another organ to increase hatred between people, the same way as the burqa or Shaira Law separates people based on religion.

The secularisation of churches (all) hopefully will make religion less relevant, for at this time too many people waste too much time and energy and resources in the name of their religion when they could be bettering the lot of their neighbors.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]fallenpedant wrote:
Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 12:11 am (UTC)

I'm not sure how you responded so quickly. Anyway, in the unlikely event that you check this page again:

I don't agree with your summary of the Bible (not that you expected me to).

"Minister of Religion" is a term used on many official documents as to be more inclusive than Priest or Vicar so as to include Rabbi, Imam, Monk etc... Anyway, as far as tax is concerned, Ministers of Religion are usually subject to income tax just like everyone else. On the HMRC website, try searching for SA102M, which is a self-assessment form for "Ministers of Religion".

Looking at the basic 3 strands of tax - Income, Corporate, Value-Added, you will notice a theme of profit making. As I stated charities do not make profits, instead surpluses are retained for charitable purposes. Being tax free is not necessarily such a great thing as it implies restrictions of usage and application.

For definitions of Charitable Purposes you are best to check the website for the Charity Commission in England and Wales. The Charities Act 2006 updated and changed the definition of what is a charitable purpose.

I was not contending that there is a separation, I know that the Church of England is established and therefore entwined with the state. However, I was pointing out that not all churches are established and they are just as organised.

In the USA there is a separation, which frees the churches up to do more lobbying and probably be more influential than their counterparts in the UK. I don't think that a separation would necessarily achieve what you want it to.
Re: The church must be separated from the state
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 05:00 pm (UTC)
The USA suffers greviously under the yoke of organized religion--not just the churches, mosques, synagogues (the Jewish lobby is among the biggest and best funded and most greedy of all). temples (with Mormons leading the charge against human rights in California, Maine, Iowa, etc), but also pseudoreligious bodies such as The Family of C Street in Washington DC that boasts a membership of the most corrupt politicians in current American History, such as Senators Ensign (R-NV), Grassley (R-IA), Imhofe (R-OK), etc. and philandering governors (such as Sanford of SC) and numerous congressional representatives. The Family has stated openly that Jesus never came to save all but to enrich a few, that rather than peace on earth there is to be war for Christianity (and enlists the vocal and personal support of Palin of AK and the Pentecostals and Adventists, etc), while decrying national health care (as Jesus was opposed to any form of state support of the people, in The Family charter), etc--and claims lately it has 172 Representatives and 28 Senators enlisted to fight the fight of Jesus. The one person most affected by this nefarious group was George W. Bush who, through his GOP advisors and Dick Cheney, saw a "holy crusade" in overthrowing Saddam Hussein who Ronald Reagan had Donald Rumsfeld install and whose father (George H.W. Bush) propped up with the support of The Family. My agrument is that most religions today do not support human freedom or right of choice (be it gay rights which is denounced by the Anglican Communion, Roman Catholic and evangelical Protestant churches, etc) and spend donated money given for "charitable purposes" on campaigns of hate (such as Prop8 in California, and the Nigerian Primate of the Anglican Church attempting to wrest Episcopalians and their church properties away from the regular Episcopal group because of the ordination of a gay bishop in NH, but now the Lutherans are facing the same block of religious hatred after the Lutheran Evangelical Synod claimed that all people were equal in the eyes of god). My mother, now nearly 90, is among the most hate-filled bigots I know who contributes large sums to religious hate groups marked specifically not to "spread the gospel" but to stop people from exercising free will, while the Baptists of KS and OK organize demonstrations against the burial of service personnel claiming that the toleration of everything from abortion rights to the right of women to preach, etc, has funneled the USA into the bowels of hell and the dead military are the responses of a jealous and zealous god who wants all people who believe in tolerance and inclusion destroyed. Islam's credo of hatred can be especially seen in Iran where the leading ayatollah (archbishop) has called for the liquidation of the "enemies of the state" who opposed the fraudulent election, and in Honduras the Roman Catholic archbishop is paid $5000 a month for propping up past dictators and the now rogue government of Michelleti and his gang of goons (the police and military) who have shot and killed in cold blood 32 youths--one as young a 9. Honduras is at the threshold of becoming a theocracy, and to win elections in an Latin country one must affirm a believe, and in Peru kiss the cross on which a statue of a crucified Jesus is impaled. Religion is the world's greatest threat to peace and prosperity.
bossy vicars
[info]jackharr wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:49 pm (UTC)
We do have a vicar for our village, but I haven’t a clue what his name (Rod somebody I think) and I certainly wouldn’t recognise him in the street. He keeps a low profile and in all honesty, isn’t a problem. He has never tried to sell his wares to me. But in truth, the village vicar is of no significance to non-believers like me and certainly gets no particular respect from me because of his profession. For all I know, we might share a common interest in photography or wildlife and he might be the expert in those fields – that is what would earn my respect.

Jack Harrison, Cambridgeshire
Not so Dim.
[info]johnshepherd wrote:
Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 09:25 am (UTC)
Blacker's approach to the radicalisation of the Church of England is typical of the Intellectual Chattering Classes who always arrogantly assume that for materialistic atheists the church is an anachronism. There is only one philosophy which has successfully influenced 2000 years of history and it is well organised , well funded and maintains its powerbase because people who should know better always underestimate it. Blacker may scoff at publicity seeking Vicars but his trade is quick enough to jump on the Halloween bandwagon every year to fill their columns. Take a look at www.halloweenchoiceorg.bravehost.com/halloweenharding.htm to see how these objects of derision cleverly use unsuspecting people like Blacker to lie and cheat in order to effect their sectarian poison.
Love, John Shepherd
Re: Not so Dim.
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 03:24 pm (UTC)
"materialistic atheists"

"sectarian poison"

Well, I guess we all know which side your communion wafer is buttered, don't we, John? :o)

"There is only one philosophy which has successfully influenced 2000 years of history and it is well organised , well funded and maintains its powerbase because people who should know better always underestimate it."

You could almost be describing the mafia (if the mafia had been 2000 years old), or the Illuminati (if it actually existed), or Nazism (which was well-organized, well-funded and fatally underestimated). And just because a philosophy is well-organised, well-funded and maintains its powerbase over 2000 years, it does not necessarily follow that that philosophy itself is intrinsically good, truthful and benign. And I would suggest that Christianity is, in fact, none of those things.

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