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Q. When is a joke not a joke? A. When it's offence

The nation's stand-ups can barely open their mouths these days without causing outrage. So have they gone too far – or has Britain lost its sense of humour, asks Ian Burrell

Carr, Ross, Boyle

Carr, Ross, Boyle: cutting edge or plain offensive?

Who's laughing now? After decades of standing close to the edge, pushing the envelope and tearing down barriers, Britain's comedians find themselves cornered as never before. Once they'd have smirked at criticisms in the right-wing newspapers but that's not so easy now those headlines can prompt a surge of online outrage that can have broadcast executives fearful for their jobs and theatre managers pulling out of contracts.

Frankie Boyle's comparison of the swimmer Rebecca Adlington to "someone who's looking at themselves in the back of a spoon" prompted Richard Tait, the chairman of the BBC Trust's standards committee, to this week describe the broadcast of the joke on the show Mock The Week as a "failure of editorial control". But by then, Boyle had already quit the programme, complaining that television had become too timid. "I think it's just dull people who want dull TV," he said. "Those jokes weren't that risqué anyway."

Then in a speech delivered on Wednesday evening, the head of Channel 4 Julian Bellamy criticised a new puritanism at the BBC, which was "increasingly conservative in its editorial decision making... after a string of scandals about taste and decency".

Daisy Goodwin, whose company Silver River produces the edgy and successful television comedy Pulling, said: "I think we are in a state of high nervous alert; it's on orange or red, it couldn't be higher," she told The Independent.

Comedians seem bemused by the new environment. Jimmy Carr spoke out for the first time this week about criticism over his observation that the high number of limbless servicemen returning from Iraq and Afghanistan meant that "we're going to have a fucking good Paralympics team in 2012". He told The Guardian that it was "a perfectly acceptable joke" and that "my intention was only to make people laugh". In The Sun, David Walliams called the Adlingon joke "very funny", adding: "You need jokes about all kinds of things, – race, gender, sexuality, class. If you start saying there are things you can't make jokes about, I think it's very dangerous."

It is 30 years since The Comedy Store, the birthplace of British alternative comedy, was founded by Don Ward and Peter Rosengard. Over those years, Ward has watched with bemusement from the side of the stage as the nature of the material has changed. "I started it up on a platform of being non-racist and non-sexist, but the sexist side of the thing has gone well out of the window, it's pushed left, right and centre," he said. "I'm not giving way on the racism and I don't like any comedy that's aimed at our fighting troops."

He acknowledged that "everything evolves in life" and that "you are almost considered twee" if you object to sexist material, but said he was confused by the sound of Indian comics joking about Pakistanis and Jamaicans about Nigerians, and vice versa. "I'm sitting in the control room thinking 'How do you handle this one?' It's a grey area." He said that if his younger self had been propelled into 2009, it would have felt "as if I was still living around the old traditional comics of the Seventies with their mother-in-law and Chalkie White jokes. The Comedy Store came along and swept all that under the carpet, but it's creeping out again."

Ward said he objected to the atmosphere created by the production team on Mock The Week, BBC2's topical comedy show. "The comedians on there are almost expected to be as outrageous as possible to lift the ratings. They are competing against each other and it's almost a boxing ring really."

The comedian and Absolute radio broadcaster Dave Gorman voiced similar concerns. "Too much of what people call satire in this country is actually pointing out that Ann Widdecombe is fat," he said. "But being rude about someone in the news is not making a point about the news." He said "lazy" producers failed to trust the audience's intelligence. "What you sometimes get is a hungry young comedian in a competitive environment. Mock The Week has seven people competing in 28 minutes. They know they have got to be short and sharp and everything has to work instantly. The issues are never gone into."

But are people really so offended by modern comedy? Gary Farrow, an entertainment publicist who works with Alan Carr, Michael McIntyre and Jack Dee, pointed to record sales of comedy DVDs and sold-out arena tours. Risque material has always been there, right back to Max Miller's use of double entendre in the Forties, he said. Farrow expressed fear that Kenny Everett would not have been allowed to succeed in today's broadcasting industry.

Kenton Allen, a former head of BBC Comedy who now runs Big Talk Productions, said that people were being offended by jokes that had been taken totally out of context by newspapers. "A joke told by a stand-up comedian at 10.30pm in the Comedy Store isn't going to play at 8am on the pages of the Daily Mail. It's a different audience and a different context.

"The ability of small sections of the audience to rapidly escalate a complaint via [the internet] means a small minority can make a huge impact very quickly. That's a different scenario to that which existed in the Eighties and Nineties."

Broadcasters must resist such organised complaints from people who were never intended to hear the joke, said Iain Morris, writer of E4 comedy The Inbetweeners. "We have to write what's funniest and best and hope the broadcasters are robust enough to stand up to the wrong audience."

Jon Thoday, the co-founder of the Avalon entertainment empire, which has Al Murray, Harry Hill and Russell Howard in its stable, traces the new climate of fear straight back to the notorious treatment of actor Andrew Sachs by Russell Brand and Jonathan Ross, an incident which cost BBC Radio2 controller Lesley Douglas and other staff their jobs.

"That incident was more about bullying. Something genuinely serious has caused a tipping-point in things which historically people aren't too worried about. Most people swear and I don't think people are surprised by it."

At a time when broadcasting executives are terrified of being made redundant in a recession, original comedy is in danger of not being made. Thoday added: "The danger of the taste and decency debate is that it is used by people who are BBC knockers at a time when the creative industry needs the money that the public gives the BBC to do something Britain has been great at for more than 50 years."

Thoday described BBC Radio 4, which famously gave a platform to the likes of Steve Coogan, Armando Iannucci and Chris Morris, as being "the apex of terror". He said: "It does make me think whether it's worth making a show for Radio 4."

But Katie Taylor, the BBC's executive editor for comedy/ entertainment, denied the BBC was paralysed by the scrutiny it was under. "I am in this business to take creative risks and work with the best comedians in the business," she said, citing the "very edgy" comedians due to appear on BBC One on Live at the Apollo. "Sometimes I have difficult judgement calls but I will always back a good joke and I think 99 per cent of the time I get it right."

That comment will please Goodwin who said she was "tired of the BBC running scared of their critics, they need to be more robust". A similar resilience, she said would also benefit us viewers, including Rebecca Adlington. "What's worse for her?" she asked. "Hearing something offensive on telly or losing a race?"

JIMMY CARR: 'Michael Jackson's death hit me like Princess Diana death... I couldn't give a fuck

JIMMY CARR: 'Say what you like about servicemen amputees from Iraq and Afghanistan, but we're going to have a fucking good paralympic team in 2012.'

MIRANDA HART: 'There is no place for racism in the modern world and the sooner that Greek twit and his Kraut wife realise it, the better.'

STEWART LEE: 'I wish [Richard Hammond] had died in that crash and that he had been decapitated and that his head had rolled off in front of his wife and that a jagged piece of metal debris from the car had got stuck in his eye and blinded him. And then his head had rolled on a few more yards into a pool of boiling oil and that his head had retained just enough neural capacity for him to be able to think "ooh, this is bit hot" before the whole thing exploded into tiny pieces.'

GRAHAM NORTON: 'Now I don't know why they have got some strange lesbian to be the model for this, but they have... obviously the lesbian pissing in a jump suit was a big market.'

DAVID JASON: 'What do you call a Pakistani cloakroom attendant? Mahatma coat.'

JO BRAND: 'Did you hear this, right, that BNP members and supporters have had their names and addresses published on the internet? Hurrah! Now we know who to send the poo to.'

FRANKIE BOYLE: 'The thing that nobody really said about Rebecca Adlington is that she looks pretty weird. She looks like someone who's looking at themselves in the back of a spoon... Did you see her boyfriend? He was really attractive. He was like a male model. So from that I have deduced that Rebecca Adlington is very dirty.'

JONATHAN ROSS: 'If your son asks for a Hannah Montana MP3 player, you might want to already think about putting him down for adoption before he brings his ... erm ... partner home.'

ANDREW NEIL: 'Here we have our very own chocolate HobNob and custard cream.'

Jokes supplied by Steve Bennett from the comedy website www.chortle.co.uk

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Comments

come back
[info]panic2009 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 05:44 am (UTC)
bernard manning. all is forgiven
Too easy to complain
[info]heatherwood wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 07:23 am (UTC)
Part of the problem is that it's become way too easy to complain (look, I'm doing it now!). At one time, to make your voice heard you'd have to sit down and write a proper letter to Points of View or the Radio Times - these days, it's just a case of clicking the 'Yes, I'm jolly offended actually' button on an online poll, or posting your random whinings on Twitter.

As for the Daily Mail, they have a very obvious agenda, which is to destroy the BBC - their current 'war' on comedy is merely a means to that end.
Re: Too easy to complain
[info]spooky1964 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC)
To true.
I would like to see a system where complaints have to be in writing, As you say it's to easy for the professional complainers at the moment, And if you can't be bothered to get off your B** and post a letter you're not really offended.
There should also be a minimum of 0.05% or 0.1% of the viewers within a 2 week period (this should stop bandwagon jumpers) before a complaint is considered.

Don Ward's humour
[info]mjohnm wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 09:21 am (UTC)
Mr Ward should not be confused: he is simply racist. Non-white people joking about each other is less clearly unacceptable to him than white joking about non-white. Perhaps he thinks they can't be expected to know any better.
Real humour does not cause offence
[info]lodger41 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 09:51 am (UTC)
If a 'joke' is made at someone else's expense then it is simply abuse . One cannot help but notice how certain powerful groups in society are no longer subjected to such abuse, surely it's about time that the same respect was shown to each and every individual. Real humour is clever and entertaining, and shows a great feel and command of language, it does not need victims
silly
[info]dizdastardly wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 10:09 am (UTC)
fair play, jonathan ross got it wrong on his phone call, but everything else is funny to a lot of people. jimmy carr and frankie boyle make me laugh about some hard topics, which is my choice to follow that humour. if you dont like it, then watch something else. simples. peole are needlesly losing their jobs over a few twisted complaints from busybodies with too much time on their hands. maybe put a warning on before the start of the program telling easilly offended people to switch off might help.
please let us listen to the funny people. it makes my life more bearable to be able to laugh at how insane our world has become.
Re: silly
[info]lodger41 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 10:28 am (UTC)
Of course , causing offence to others is indeed 'funny' to a lot of people, one wonders however if they would still feel so amused if they themselves were on the receiving end of it. However, the question remains, is it humour or simply abuse ?
Re: silly
[info]dizdastardly wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 10:53 am (UTC)
when you are phoned up and and being taken the p**s out of on national radio, in his own private home, that is abuse. when you have jokes made about you on a comedy feature, that is a non intrusive "obsevation", which i take to be humour. about being on the recieving end, i can take it easilly enough, as long as its not malicious. then it is intended as abuse.
I'll tell you what's funny.
[info]chippychap wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 10:40 am (UTC)
Surely the best judge of what is funny is the listener; They laugh............it's funny, they don't.......it ain't.
We are now so micro-managed by every tosser with a clipboard that we are now even told when it is right to laugh.
Unfunny comedians soon fall by the wayside.
Personally i find jonathon Ross VERY unfunny and boring but Frankie boyle and Jimmy Carr I find hilarious, my decision.......end of.
david mitchell calling homoeopaths liars is slander
[info]mind_ful wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC)
A joke is a joke when it is funny and not a breach of the law. For example, while it is fine to take the mick out of everything, to focus on individuals and slander or libel them personally is against the law and rightly unacceptible. This is when it should be re-worded. A famous example is david mitchell slandering homoeopaths recently (on the unbelievable truth radion 4) by calling them 'liars'. He meant - I think - that he found what they say about medicine unbelievable - but that is not the same thing as accusing professional health practitioners of dishonestly. its not difficult to tread the line, it just takes self discipline - something not hot in modern life.
Re: david mitchell calling homoeopaths liars is slander
[info]en1gma123 wrote:
Sunday, 8 November 2009 at 08:21 am (UTC)
Homeopathy to healthcare is like astrology to astronomy; they are both made-up nonsense. The state of mind of the people trying to make money out of them by trying to con and confuse the ignorant is debatable - they might be liars or they might just prefer to live in a parallel universe where science and knowledge doesn't matter. If David Mitchell thinks that they are liars then his opinion is at least as valid as yours, that they are 'professional health practitioners'.
[info]mickey_modster wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 11:46 am (UTC)
Too many people sat around just waiting to be offended, normally by things that haven't seen or heard, just read about...
HERE'S A GOOD ONE
[info]truedenier wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 12:13 pm (UTC)
Ugh Jimmy Carr's problem is not that he's a maverick
[info]steerpike66 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 02:06 pm (UTC)
but that he's a corporate tool who do ANYTHING for a paycheck. What a boring, rubbish comedian, with that tedious, mechanical 'bloopedy-bloop' delivery style.
God these are the WORST comedians
[info]steerpike66 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 02:11 pm (UTC)
I'll defend their right to make rubbish jokes but...Al Murray? 'Pulling'? Jimmy Fucking Carr? These are absolutely the shittiest comics working today. They 'tell joke'. They actually still 'tell jokes',like 'here is the setup....here is the pause....and here is the punchline! Woo hoo! only there are a few fucks and cunts thrown in.

It's sad, mediocre stuff.
What is humour?
[info]drahcir38 wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 02:37 pm (UTC)
Have you ever really thought about defining humour rather than criticising other peoples "bad taste"? I say this not as a criticism of anyone elses opinion but simply as a statement which invites you to say exactly what humour is.

Having thought about it I am not sure that I have ever heard a "joke", or laughed at a story that did not rely upon someone elses stupidity, misfortune, unusualness/absurdity or bad luck! If you can come up with something which does not involve either of these scenarios I would truly love to hear from you, because I believe that what we (I use the word as a generalisation) laugh at are the things which make us feel uncomfortable or superior or are waht we percieve to be "shared" failings/experiences.
[info]alfaustere wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 03:20 pm (UTC)
Quote from Lodger41 "If a 'joke' is made at someone else's expense then it is simply abuse . One cannot help but notice how certain powerful groups in society are no longer subjected to such abuse, surely it's about time that the same respect was shown to each and every individual. Real humour is clever and entertaining, and shows a great feel and command of language, it does not need victims"

I'm sorry Lodger matey but I define you to tell a joke without someone or something being a victim... you cannot it's impossible...even the joke about What's grey and red and hides in cherry trees ? an elephant with painted toenails...you might be implying the elephant is a tranvestite thus abusing his right to choose his sexuality..!! you tell me a joke and I or someone else on these postings will find something to complain about you on it... The remark about 'Looks like someone looking at themselves in the back of a spoon' is certainly not that offensive surely...Frankie Boyle could have made a nasty jibe about her being the Emelda Marcos of Nottinghamshire because of the numberous pairs of shoes she has instead...
Not Rocket Science
[info]haggis_eater wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC)
If you don't like it, don't watch it. If nobody likes it, nobody will watch it. If nobody watches it, the comedian will not get paid. If the comedian doesn't get paid, they won't continue to be a comedian.

The corollary is: if a comedian is successful enough to be on TV/Radio, a hell of a lot of people find him funny. The issue, therefore, is not with the comedian but with the audience.

Clearly, the appreciators of 'risque' comedy are therefore depraved, racist bigots but if you (the GP) want to tell me (the audience) what I should or shouldn't find funny, I have a message for you: Fuck Off.
Decent comedians
[info]rockinrog wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 05:15 pm (UTC)
Did anyone else notice that Milton Jones wiped the floor with the others when he appeared on Mock The Week? He hardly swore (if at all) and his humour was offbeat and literate. Frankie Boyle was well past his sell-by date, as his dire performance on Charlie Brooker's show proved. There is a bear pit atmosphere to Mock The Week, which is why it will never be as popular as Have I Got News For You? A comic who falls back on swearing for laughs is never going to be as funny. On the other hand, most TV sets do now come with remote controls, so zapping away from offensive material has never been easier. Too many people have sad, empty lives and feel important when they complain. How many times have we all heard more about complaints than the actual programme? I didn't even know Ross did a Radio 2 programme on Saturdays until the Sachs affair. Does nobody ever realise complaining about "humour" is usually counterproductive? I suppose that would exhibit a degree of intelligence.
Is this funny?
[info]hopes_dashed wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 06:00 pm (UTC)
Time 1953, place, Primary school in North Yorkshire. I am pulled out to the front of the class for talking in assembly. The head master proceeds to make fun of my clothes, most bought at jumble sales, to the rest of the school, who thought it hilarious. I recovered, with no scars.

All this being so touchy and so called outraged at 'offensive jokes' just means people are unable to defend themselves because they never get the chance to. Lets get back to a bit of cut and thrust, then our kids might stick up for themselves and give as good as they get, rather than running home and crying about bullying.

We are all to fragile nowadays.
Outrage
[info]xokatyxo wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 06:00 pm (UTC)
I think one should be careful when choosing what one is outraged over (and it is a CHOICE, you know. Making your displeasure known is almost always a choice. You choose to open your mouth, click send, stand up, walk out, change the channel. There are plenty of instances when you judge something mildly irritating to be simply not worth complaining about, aren't there? Imagine a world populated by people who complained and whined and stamped their feet over every tiny thing that they disliked.. and refused to let these things go.) Because one day something truly awful might happen (to you, to your loved ones, to the world) and you'll look back on all that time and energy you wasted expressing your "outrage" over trivial things and you'll feel not only stupid but (I'd imagine) quite ashamed. Choose your battles wisely.

PS - I do like Charlie Brookers idea about having a "counter-complaint" button on television remotes (or complaints websites). (Eg: Click HERE to register your offense, click HERE if you weren't offended and/or don't care.) That would balance (or even perhaps completely void) this issue. (And maybe restore some peoples perspectives.)
Katie Taylor
[info]strawmanboater wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 06:03 pm (UTC)
How can she function with that level of competence, even crossing the road must be like a death race for her.
jesters
[info]mrstake wrote:
Saturday, 7 November 2009 at 08:23 pm (UTC)
The Jester has traditionally been able to have free reign to make people no matter how high and mighty feel uncomfortable and offended. It is a necessary cultural aspect that reveals pomposity for what it is. Jokes are some sort of social release and better that then have resentments boiling under the surface waiting yo explode.

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