Climate Change

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Australia fires a climate wake-up call - experts

By David Fogarty, Reuters Climate Change Correspondent, Asia

VictoriaAlps-Australia

Reuters

Australia

The frame of twin chairs pertrude from the ruins of the home where John and Sue Wilson died when a bushfire swept through the town of Mudgeegonga in the Victoria Alps.

Weekend bushfires in Australia that killed 173 people are a climate change wake-up call for the public and politicians and a window to the future, experts said on Tuesday.

With the death toll still growing from the nation's deadliest fires, some analysts say the sheer scale of the tragedy might prompt industry to back-off calls to weaken the government's emissions targets or delay a carbon-trading scheme set for 2010.

"What the bushfires might do is suck the oxygen out of the debate. I think public awareness has been focused now on climate change again. We knew what the scientists had predicted and we've actually seen it in action," said Matthew Clarke of Deakin University in Melbourne.

"It may be very difficult for those who want weaker carbon reduction scheme targets or those who want to see it delayed to put those arguments into the public sphere. The atmosphere might be more hostile to those arguments," said Clarke, associate professor at the School of International and Political Studies.

The fires tore through communities on the outskirts of Melbourne, fuelled by heatwave conditions and strong winds. Melbourne's temperature on Saturday hit 46.4 degrees Celsius (115.5 degrees Fahrenheit), a record for the city.

The Australian government released a policy document, or White Paper, in December outlining its plans for carbon trading as part of its strategy to fight climate change.

Under the scheme, the government set a target to cut carbon emissions by 5 percent in 2020 from 2000 levels and 15 percent if there is global agreement at the end of this year on a broader pact to fight climate change.

But the Greens, citing the fires and severe flooding in northern Australia, are calling for tougher targets.

The Greens and two independents hold the balance of power in the Senate and the government of Prime Minister Kevin Rudd is expected to face a tough time getting the emissions trading legislation passed by the Upper House later this year.

BIG AGENDA

Industry and particularly big coal-fired power generation firms, say the trading scheme will be too costly. The liquefied natural gas industry, which earns billion of dollars in exports, has said the scheme could force them to move offshore.

"Climate Change is a big agenda that should be considered in its own space and it would be irresponsible to find cover for a climate change argument in the bushfires," Heather Ridout, Chief Executive of the Australian Industry Group, told Reuters in a statement.

Some analysts say the fires were predictable and that climate scientists have been warning for years about Australia's vulnerability to rising temperatures and declining rainfall across much of the nation's south.

"I would compare this current bushfire event to one of the ghosts in Dickens' Christmas Carol that visits Scrooge and showed him what his future would be like if he didn't change his ways," said professor Barry Brook, director of the Research Institute for Climate Change and Sustainability at the University of Adelaide.

"The government should be taking an international leadership role. They are not listening to the ghost whispering in their ear saying this is your future," said Brook, who called for an emissions cut target of 40 percent by 2020 if there is a global climate agreement.

"The real danger in the White Paper is not the 5 percent target, it's the 15 percent target. So that's what the Greens should be advocating, changing the international negotiating target and make it as hard as possible."

But there was also a risk to investors if the government kept changing the targets because of financial or climate shocks.

"The fundamental flaw with the policy of the White Paper is that it's a political compromise, not a clear plan. And a political compromise will be blown in the wind, depending on what shock comes along," said leading climate change policy analyst Warwick McKibbin.

"It's very important to have a clear, transparent plan that builds constituencies and clarity about the future so that when something comes along, the policy doesn't fall over," said McKibbin, executive director of the Centre for Applied Macroeconomic Analysis in Canberra.

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Comments

too little too late
[info]beezerbutt wrote:
Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 06:43 pm (UTC)

We have changed the climate on this planet and we continue to do so.
There is NOTHING we can do, except sit and watch the outcome.
Why?
If we _STOPPED_ carbon emissions COMPLETELY today, it would take
decades or maybe centuries for the climate to stabilize, under the proviso
that we would take out what we have already added to the atmosphere.
So sit tight and pray that you live in a part of the world that will bear the brunt
less than other places.
Re: too little too late
[info]mikebrisco wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC)
No. There are things that can be done.

Jim Hansen et al for instance, suggest an immediate cut down on emissions, abandoning coal as a fossil fuel. Hansen says carbon levels will peak, but then decline in a decade or two, as plants, and the ocean, soak up carbon dioxide. This limits warming, avoids catastrophic climate change. Note this takes a decade or two. Not "decades or centuries".

If we do this - we have a few decades of warmer climate, then the climate cools. In short if you are teenage now and do this - you can look forward to being able to retire (as things are stable you continue to earn) and retire in comfort not heat.

This can be done - it is a huge ask, but it can be done. All we lack, is politicial will & individaul will. We have managed Ok with less power before. 1980s miners strike. And other countries seem to get on OK on less power than we do.

Another trolley dash towards madness
[info]smithsfan82 wrote:
Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC)
1851 Black Thursday Bushfire - long before industrialisation and the modern protagonist; the car. Makes a mockery of the climate change hysteria.

Re: Another trolley dash towards madness
[info]mikebrisco wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 06:18 am (UTC)
Nonsense.

If you had been following the news in the Australian press - you would know things are differnet this time, and that many people realise that things are no longer what they were.

Recommended precautions , recommended techniques to survive them - that worked time and time before - this time, no longer adequate. Why? The precautions have, if anything, improved over time.

The day before the fire, State govt warnings were published, that fire risk was the worst ever. The worst risk ever. The warnigns are based on things including weather.

Victoria recorded its highest temperatures ever during these last few days. The record highs are in recent years - not spread over 150 years since records began.

There are still bushfires burning, people still at risk. They need to get the message - this time things are different, it might not be enough - take extra care.

But the issue now is not what caused it - it is the humans affected. Callous of you to ignore this -your comment says nothing on this, but is quick to exploit their disaster, as a means for you to push your own agenda. Which seems to have to do with politics, not fact and not saving lives.

A large donation to the bushfire appeal, at www.salvos.org.au - might redeem your sins a little!
And The World Did Not Care
[info]frankiew wrote:
Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 07:54 pm (UTC)
My heart goes out to those in Australia bereaved by this disaster and to all those who have lost their homes and those things valuable. But the dust has not even settled and there are those trying to make capital out of this disaster like those mentioned in the above article stating the cause be "man-made global warming." The usual apocalyptic tones resonating concerning carbon dioxide levels. How I would have respected their sincerity and integrity if also they had mentioned the recent snow disaster in NW China in the province of Qinghai. Here 1.65 million people were left snowblind and frostbitten with 500,000 livestock and wildlife dead and 3.1 million others on the verge of starvation. The temperatures there plunged to minus 36.3 degrees centigrade and in the surrounding prefectures 130,000 people had run out of fuels with 350,000 in need of food and 110,000 in need of warm clothes and quilts. How many people died is not stated. And the world did not care.
Now the question. Why was this tragedy not reported in the media unlike the tragedy in Australia?
the big event?
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 11:32 pm (UTC)
Is this finally the event that shocks the world into action to reduce greenhouse emissions? It seems not if the comments here are an indication (and they are). The foolish and the ignorant will go on denying to the bitter end (http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/66848/Whacko_Texas.html), and it will be bitter.
Australian press
[info]sallyow wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 01:55 am (UTC)
This is a much more comprehensive comment than anything I have read in the Australian press to date. For many days, as the bush fire death toll figures, (and the floods in Queensland,) rose, climate change was like the elephant in the room. That is changing now, thank goodness.
Re: Australian press
[info]rsty1oct wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 03:19 am (UTC)
We obviously haven't been reading the same Australian papers. Almost everything I've read on the Queensland floods and the Victorian heatwave/fires has referenced climate change at some point, except the earliest fire reports for the most part had the sensitivity not to politicise the deaths of hundreds.
yes, too little too late
[info]someofusknow wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 02:52 am (UTC)
It is quite extraordinary how governments have managed to dupe so many pople into thinking carbon trading has anything to do with saving the planet. It will achieve nothing, since it is does nothing to tackle the basic problem and simply yet another financial scam.

The real way to save the planet -drastic reductions in actual CO2 emissions- is not even on the agenda!

It is almost certainly too late, since the oceans are dying from acidity , forests are dying from overheating and drought, and numerous positive feedback mechanisms have been triggered.

But the business-as-usual community take absolutely no notice and continue destroying the next generation's future, even as I write.
more reasons for alarmists
[info]johnsmith9833 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 04:27 am (UTC)
"Climate Change is a big agenda that should be considered in its own space and it would be irresponsible to find cover for a climate change argument in the bushfires," Heather Ridout, Chief Executive of the Australian Industry Group
very well said!
doing otherwise is not only irresponsible, but verges more on "destructive paranoia"
Biochar is the Answer
[info]redroseandy wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 04:46 am (UTC)
Austalia can help it's farmers as well as cutting it's CO2 emissions by biocharing everything that can be. The biochar is mostly carbon, which offsets man made CO2. The biochar is buried in the ground and increases water retention and food production.
Ridout
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 06:54 am (UTC)
What Heather Ridout means is that she wants "climate change" "considered" without the public being allowed to know what the effects are going to be.

Incidentally "biochar" may or may not be a useful mechanism, that is by no means clear, but at best it is a tiny part of greenhouse gas reduction strategies. There is no magic quick fix that lets us go on using carbon at the rate we have been.
Green Destruction
[info]frankiew wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 09:11 am (UTC)
justagreenie

This Australian Fire is a tragedy and I do not wish to comment too much regarding this article but to your comments I feel that I have to respond.

The Greens are destroying this planet if their focus be CO2 ignoring environmental issues that we as humans can change and influence.

A leading Catholic Charity has described the Green Ideology as deadly as Communism

If it were not for Farm Machinery and derivatives obtained from Fossil Fuel which help in Farming then millions and millions of people on our planet would have died from starvation. And if those who see CO2 as being a pollutant have their way then this be the case.

So justgreenie just stop calling me Ignorant
Bush fires nothing to do with Climate Change
[info]calum100 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 09:31 am (UTC)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25031389-7583,00.html

The ferocity of bush fires started by fire bugs in Victoria have absolutely nothing to do with Climate Change but everything to do with the madness of environmentalism.

For thousands of years the Aborigine peoples curtailed bush fires by low intensity burnings in the winter. That practice was adopted by white settlers until a few years ago when it was argued by environmentalists that high intensity fires was better for the bush and for forest biodiversity.

The fuel load in the Victorian bush has been allowed to build up to 8 times its normal levels. That explains the very high itensity of the fires experienced under these weather conditions.

The fire bugs may have lit the fires but it was the environmentalist lobby who supplied the fuel.

Today many Australians are pointing their fingers at Green party and blaming them for what has happened.
Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 10:52 am (UTC)
The item you refer to is driven by ideology. We don't need glib populist answers like the old "must manage forests like the Aborigines" from those with vested interests and powerful ideologies of dominating nature, and privatising the whole world.

There is no evidence that Aborigines "managed" the bush with fire, and absolutely no evidence that they did anything remotely resembling the demands of the "prescribed burning" "hazard reduction" advocates. On the contrary, if they had done anything like that there would have been massive small species extinctions and radical fire-related habitat changes in the last 50,000 years, neither of which are seen.

There is no evidence that prescribed burning would make any desired difference to major bush fires, and anyone watching images this week of the fires racing through grasslands, exploding single trees, burning trees spread out through owns, would realise that prescribed burning would have made no impact at all. In any case there is evidence that prescribed burning may actually make forests more liable to fire, by changing plant species composition, and will certainly irreversibly reduce biodiversity. There isn't room to go into this at length here. For those interested there is a summary here
http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/84979/Fire_and_Australian_Society.html
items about fire here
http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/Fire/
and a general introduction to Aborigines and the environment here
http://www.blognow.com.au/mrpickwick/History_Conquerors/

Please note that I am not saying don't burn around towns to act as a fire break if you really think this might work (I doubt that it would have in Victoria this week). I am saying don't try to deliberately burn every square inch of Victoria. The plant and animal specie have enough to contend with trying to survive climate change without the further pressure of prescribed burning.

Oh and those of us trying to do the best for the world we live in could do without the spewing of abuse at Greens whenever we try to suggest that dominance and destruction of the biosphere may just not be in human interests either.

I have wept tears for the victims of this terrible event al week. Al of us can identify with the heartbreak and loss, particularly those of us, like me, who are farmers. But this shouldn't be an occasion for people to ride hobby horses roughshod over the environment.
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]calum100 - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 05:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]justagreenie - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 09:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]calum100 - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]justagreenie - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:42 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]calum100 - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 11:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]justagreenie - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 08:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Bush fires nothing to do with fuel loads - [info]rsty1oct - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 03:30 am (UTC) Expand
Cold Weather in England - Wake Up Call
[info]nettle124 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 10:24 am (UTC)
The bitterly cold weather and snow is a wake up call for our scientific community.

The cooling effect of an inactive sun is certainly something we should worry about. For the past 10 years the earth has been cooling gradually, but that cooling is likely to accelerate if solar cycle 24 doesnt get going soon.

You thought that you were worried about global warming. Far more destructive is a global cooling event. It looks like it is on its way if the weather in the UK is anything to go by.
Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
[info]frankiew wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 12:10 pm (UTC)
justagreenie
Put your money where your mouth is. If you are a farmer then go and plough your fields with ox and plough. Take whatever you produce to the market in pony and trap. If you have children let them study by candlelight and write their lessons on slate using chalk. And whatever you eat let it be raw for cooking using fire is bad for the environment. And then follow Jonathon Porritt diverting money from illnesses to increase abortions and worship his belief that having more than two children is irresponsible being bad for the environment.

Also write to governments to stop providing bailouts for the car industry and building more roads and encouraging air travel. Use sailing boat to travel and for export of produce. Sack all who work with that associated with fossil fuel and CO2 production. And finally forget about running water draw from a well and let all that is waste be dumped in your back garden and lets hope it neither produces carbon dioxide nor methane.
Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 09:15 pm (UTC)
Hmm, or perhaps I could insulate my home, use solar hot water and add solar power, convert to low energy light bulbs and replace inefficient appliances, collect my own water, recycle waste, and so on. Sorry, I've already done those things.

The alternative of course is for nobody to change anything about the way they live and continue on to a desolate planet.

Hard choice, eh?
Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is - [info]johnsmith9833 - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is - [info]justagreenie - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 08:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is - [info]johnsmith9833 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:42 am (UTC) Expand
Normal Climate?
[info]bobav wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 12:37 pm (UTC)
All this theory assumes there is a "normal" for climate. While there may be an "optimal" climate range for human habitation, "Normal" climate is exactly what is happening at the time it is happening. The earth has never been so disposed or anthropomorphized to adapt its living conditions to suit the likes and dislikes of any species that call it home... in fact much the opposite is true. The hubris of humankind thinking it can live outside that arrangement is potentially the root of its demise. Even the bacteria in a petrie dish must conform to the limits of the petrie dish.
Melbourne historical temperatures
[info]ukgerda wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 01:51 pm (UTC)
there is an analysis of Melbourne temperatures here

http://tamino.wordpress.com/2009/02/08/fire-down-below/

showing statistically significant warming.

Hot Spots
[info]frankiew wrote:
Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 02:56 pm (UTC)
ukgerda
Melbourne's temperatures have been high. However what is not mentioned is how temperatures in this area have been recorded in the past and also the vicinities of where these temperatures have been recorded in the past. All very important in making comparisons. Again not the whole truth is being told.
Florida has also been experiencing hot and longer hot seasons. Scientists have collected data going back six decades showing that the hot season has got a lot hotter and longer in some areas but not others. The change is not related to "global warming". What has been found is the lesser-known phenomenon of local warming. The analysis shows that weather can be very local and weather can be a function of population growth. It has been noted that the most notable climate changes happened where development and wetland drainage has been the most pronounced. Neither the water temperatures of Atlantic nor the Gulf had any affect on the local temperature.
Conclusion. Local hot spots are caused by local land-use changes that accentuate the urban 'heat-island'effect.
Bush Fires
[info]jae_yeon wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 08:31 am (UTC)
A credible argument but way too superficial. No-one at this stage seems to have pointed out that there had been a real push by environmentalists over the last few years to prevent back-burning and clearance of bush detritus. The environment will look after itself was the argument. The subsequent build up of fuel combined with unfavourable winds, extreme heat and alleged psychotic arsonists need to be considered.
Re: Bush Fires
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 09:29 am (UTC)
Nonsense - extensive "back-burning" (you mean "prescribed burning" they are two different things) is carried out. The argument is over the extent, and the effectiveness, and the damage to biodiversity, and the likelihood that it increases the risk of fire in the longer term, and so on. There is in addition a limit (set by weather patterns) as to how much you can do in a year, and there are many cases of prescribed burns going wrong and turning into wildfires. There is no reason to think that any additional prescribed burning would have made any difference whatever to this weeks fires. You really shouldn't believe what you read from the right wing columnists.
Dr Vicky Pope
[info]frankiew wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 06:31 pm (UTC)
johnsmith9833
I am a conservationist and fully endorse anti-pollution policies that are based on sound and sustainable and achievable principles. But to say that CO2 is a pollutant that drives climate is just nonsense. One thing that this 'global warming' hypothesis has achieved is the corruption of Science. Dr Vicky Pope and Dr Peter Stott should know this and if they are unaware of this should read the book 'Red Hot Lies: How Global Warming Alarmists Use Threats Fraud And Deception To Keep You Misinformed'
By Christopher C. Horner
Re: Dr Vicky Pope
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 08:43 pm (UTC)
Your first four words are wrong.
Re: Dr Vicky Pope - [info]frankiew - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 09:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Dr Vicky Pope - [info]justagreenie - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 12:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Dr Vicky Pope - [info]johnsmith9833 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:43 am (UTC) Expand
The naive 'global warming' brigade
[info]phe1 wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 09:28 pm (UTC)
It was only a matter of time before the global warming brigade jumped on these fires as 'further proof'. Irrespective of CO2 emissions, this fire would have happened - like Hurricane Katrina happened, like the 2003 heat wave in Europe, like the many floods. Such events have always happened, and always will. The reasons we think they are more common or worse are: the global village; instant satellite TV images; video phones; larger populations living in risk zones, etc. Not because they are truly more common. While there may have been one or two arsonists, with temperatures in the 40s, and a dry bush, fires were inevitable. Eucalyptus trees emit flamable oils expressly for the purpose of encouraging fire. The questions man needs to ask are not about CO2 emissions, but whether its appropriate to build thousands of homes in forest that will inevitable burn one day (as in Southern California). Blaming this on 'global warming' is a nonsense. Stopping CO2 emissions will not save lives. What will is a more sensible approach to chosing where to live, and in understanding that we cannot completely tame nature.
You Will Be Disturbed
[info]frankiew wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:42 am (UTC)
Christopher Horner the author of the book Red Hot Lies has recently been interviewed by Glenn Beck, the interview relating to the mentioned book. In the interview the names of Kevin Rudd and Margaret Beckett MP are mentioned. For all who believe in and hold in high esteem freedom will be disturbed by this interview. Just go to youtube and in searches type in Christopher Horner-Red Hot Lies.
Their Views Now
[info]frankiew wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 09:32 am (UTC)
justagreenie
Dr Claude Allegre was one of the first to speak in favour of the hypothesis CO2 as a cause of "global warming."
His view now:
"The Cause of This Climate Change Is Unknown."
Dr David Bellamy also changed his views. Perhaps you can ask yourself the question why.
The list is endless.
Re: Their Views Now
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC)
People do and say strange things when driven by ideology or political beliefs. The belief that human beings (all 6 billion of us) couldn't possibly cause a change in the Earth's climate is based I think on a blind faith in human dominance over the natural world and an equally blind faith in unregulated capitalism. The latter also came to grief in the financial meltdown. Both are coming to grief in the global meltdown.
Re: Their Views Now - [info]phe3 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 03:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]justagreenie - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]phe4 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]justagreenie - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]colinru - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 05:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]justagreenie - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Their Views Now - [info]colinru - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 02:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Greens to blame
[info]canadastan wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 05:38 pm (UTC)
If the green idiots hadn't prohibited the clearing of flammable underbrush the fires could have quickly been contained.
The greens have blood on their hands
[info]canadastan wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 05:39 pm (UTC)
They prevented the clearing of the inflammable underbrush that would have prevented the spread of these fires.
How many more are the greens prepared to kill?
Re: The greens have blood on their hands
[info]justagreenie wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:24 pm (UTC)
Well canadastan, really ignorant, or deliberately offensive, or both? The fires were caused by extraordinary conditions (undoubtedly with a contribution from climate change) and fire sources from arsonists and lightning. They burnt through grassland, farmland, open forest, dispersed woodlands, townships. The fire ran trough the crowns of trees. The progress of the fires had nothing to do with whether the land had previously been burnt or not (are you unaware that massive prescribed burning already takes place every year, has done for years?). "Clearing the underbrush", whatever you think that means, would have made no difference to anything, other than causing massive species extinctions among plant and animals, and I have no idea how you think it could be accomplished. Short of concreting over the whole of Victoria, nothing will stop fires under conditions of 45 degree temperatures, strong winds and years of drought, just as nothing stops them in similar conditions in California, or Greece. This hatred of the greens is being promoted by those with a vested interest, and ideology, in despoiling the small remaining natural areas, for profit. You one of them canadastan, or are you just being misled?
Re: The greens have blood on their hands - [info]frankiew - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 11:22 am (UTC) Expand

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