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Afghan war is bad for security, voters say

Independent poll casts doubt on key justification for Britain's involvement in conflict

By Kim Sengupta in Kabul and Nigel Morris

The Homecoming: Silence descended over Wootton Bassett yesterday as mourners gathered to greet the repatriated bodies of six soldiers killed in Afghanistan

GETTY IMAGES

The Homecoming: Silence descended over Wootton Bassett yesterday as mourners gathered to greet the repatriated bodies of six soldiers killed in Afghanistan

The main justification offered by the Government for keeping troops in Afghanistan is rejected by the majority of British people, a new opinion poll for The Independent shows today. Four out of five of those questioned do not believe that British involvement in the conflict, with its rising toll of casualties, is keeping the streets of Britain safe from terrorist attacks.

The findings come as senior commanders have begun warning that the next few months will see intensifying military action, and that British forces will be expected to play a full part. There is no question of British troops "retreating to safer areas", senior Nato officials stressed.

In direct contradiction of the Government's position, almost half, or 46 per cent, of those surveyed held that the presence of British forces in the US-led war actually increased the threat of attacks in the country by creating anger and resentment among the Muslim population.

The findings of the survey, by GFK NOP, will intensify the political dilemma facing Gordon Brown. Yesterday was a day of deep emotion with the return of the bodies of six fallen soldiers, but the Prime Minister must now also contend with the risk of mounting anger if the core argument for continuing the deployment of British forces eight years after the overthrow of the Taliban lacks conviction for the public.

The Prime Minister, who has been subjected to personal attacks over misspellings in a letter of condolence written to the mother of a dead soldier, faced rebellion over the direction of the war from within his own party. A former minister, Frank Field, will today seek an early House of Commons debate on Afghanistan. Mr Field who has the backing of 19 Labour MPs, says that the debate should cover the UK's role, the objectives of the intervention and "the time scale over which these goals will be achieved".

Video: Six soldiers' bodies returned to UK

Although the Government says it is committed to "staying the course" in Afghanistan, Mr Brown signalled yesterday that plans were being drawn up to hand control over a significant part of Helmand province to Afghan forces from mid-2010. British troops aim to transfer authority "district by district" as the Afghan army and police forces are trained and local government structures put in place. "We think that, by mid-next year, probably two parts of Helmand can be transferred from our responsibility," Mr Brown said.

But in Kabul, Brigadier General Eric Tremblay, a Canadian officer in the International Security Assistance Force, said the south of Afghanistan would remain the focus for the Nato campaign. "No one is pulling out and we continue with our military strategy. In fact towns like Musa Qala are the sort of population centres which we are protecting and where we need security to grow, and British troops will, of course, play a crucial part in that." He said 68 per cent of violent incidents occurred in Helmand and Kandahar and so the region is obviously of key importance.

Separately, a senior American officer who played a key role in the plans drawn up for a military "surge" by General Stanley McChrystal, the US commander of Nato forces, said British operations in Helmand would continue. "Forces like the British in Helmand and the Canadians in Kandahar are needed for combat. Getting involved in operations means there will be more casualties. That applies to all of us."

The Prime Minister's official spokesman said the transfer Mr Brown referred to would "not necessarily" mean British troops coming home, suggesting the initial plan would mean UK forces withdrawing to an oversight role in areas handed over to the Afghans.

Public disillusionment with the war has been reinforced by the massive fraud which characterised the recent elections in Afghanistan. Questions are being asked in all the countries supplying troops for the Nato mission as to why soldiers should die for the government of Hamid Karzai which has been internationally labelled corrupt.

Britain with its force of 9,100 is the second-biggest contributor after the US to Nato's Afghan mission, and Mr Brown has already pledged to send reinforcements of another 500 troops.

Brigadier General Tremblay said that instead of the scale of the combat diminishing, the Taliban are trying to open up other fronts around the country. One of the most senior commanders in the British forces also told The Independent that there would be no withdrawal from the town of Musa Qala, which gained iconic significance after being retaken by British forces from the Taliban. "Even if we planned to do this, it simply would not be politically acceptable because of the sacrifices which have been made there," he said.

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get out now
[info]humanright wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 01:08 am (UTC)
Mr.Brown :spare the lives of British soldiers and Afghans. The more blood you shed the more revenge of the families of the killed .Your war is the ultimate terror and it produces terror. You are not fighting the Taliban alone but fighting also those who resist occupation. There is no Alqaeda but two extreme individuals hiding somewhere between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Alqaeda is a phantom with which you are scaring the people. So do not decieve the British people as you have decieved them in Iraq. Get out now. Be human
Re: get out now
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 08:57 am (UTC)
If families of those killed by our soldiers want revenge against us does this mean families of those killed by the Taliban will want revenge against the Taliban? If not why not?
Re: get out now - [info]corporeal_v001 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: get out now - [info]jakem1 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:36 am (UTC) Expand
Re: get out now - [info]humanright - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 05:38 pm (UTC) Expand
UK became target after we invaded
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:52 am (UTC)

Its a catch-22 situation.

1. Start an illegal invasion for control of resources and regional control
2. Continued invasion kills civilians
3. Death of civilians creates angry occupied*
4. Angry occupied may commit acts of terrorism
5. Angry occupied become insurgents
6. Invader body count increases as insurgents fight back
7. If invader body count exceeds threshold limits then voters want to end invasion
8. Else goto 2.

*As the occupied are Muslims, there is a global brotherhood of 1.57 billion people, so the angry may go way beyond the boundary of the occupied country. Of the 1.57 billion, some may flip and take matters into their own hands.
Re: UK became target after we invaded - [info]prof_use - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC) Expand
The Stolen Leadership of Britain
[info]reinertorheit wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 01:18 am (UTC)

Mr Brown, stop deceiving yourself. You are not Britain's leader and never have been. No-one has ever voted you to this position. You have the support of no-one. You are hated by the entire country.

To lead Britain still deeper into an unwanted and illegal war, against the will of the British people, is the act of a despot, a coward, and a Stalinist bully.

If Britain were a ship or an aircraft, the crew would be relieving you of command at this point. Please go, and go now. Do at least one solitary thing for Britain during your premiership - and resign.
Re: The Stolen Leadership of Britain
[info]zugzwang42 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 01:54 am (UTC)


Yes, up to a point, Brown indeed is not our leader, he is there by default. He could have called an election, to secure his position as Pm in his own right. He chose for whatever reasons, not to do so, which leaves us where we are now

Leaving aside the Iraq issue , important as it is , the point you made about relieving the " captain of command " for the general good, is a point I also made many months ago. It is not mutiny, but is a written duty to relieve mad commanders of power.

Shame this crew have no balls, are not up for it, like so many heads, with no chickens on...
Re: The Stolen Leadership of Britain - [info]uanime5 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC) Expand
The UK is a terrorist state - [info]freddyfresh - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 01:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Stolen Leadership of Britain - [info]auntyeunice - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:41 am (UTC) Expand
Security not helped by our involvement in Afghanistan
[info]olivercorning wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 02:51 am (UTC)
If your poll asked the question in a different way I think you would find the response enlightening because the real issue and elephant in the room is the fact that both Lab/Con have created the problem in the first place and our young men are pying the price for it.

The justification that being there we are helping to prevent terrorism occurring on the streets of the UK is only due to the fact these two no-mark parties have betrayed the UK population by allowing mass immigration into our country of groups of people that are liable to have siginificent numbers of people in absolute terms witihn their communities prepared to commit such acts of terrorism; i.e. bomb us, wanting to change our way-of-life, apply 10c living practices, etc.

And did either of those no-mark parties request our permission to pursue these disastrous policies via the ballot box, no of ocurse not.
Re: Security not helped by our involvement in Afghanistan
[info]someofusknow wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 05:12 am (UTC)
Ballot boxes are only there for voters to choose which group of criminals will ignore their interests, loot the till, and facilitate the looting of the nation (and the planet) by global corporations and money-lenders. Other than perhaps the socialist governments that briefly held office atfer WW2 it has always been that way.

The present government couldn't give a toss what the people want (or what is good for Britain), and neither will the next Tory government
They are liars.
[info]johnnywi wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 05:11 am (UTC)
They lied us into Iraq and lie to us, to stay in Afganistan. They will then lie us into Iran. They need Afganistan as a pincer between Iran and Pakistan. They want to control the whole region.
Another fine mess
[info]49niner wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 05:12 am (UTC)
We're in a right old mess in Afghanistan. Damned if we stay and damned if we don't.

It's not our country and ultimately we have no business being there. We need an exit strategy and until we get one, the mess will get worse. When in a hole stop digging.

The lesson for future governments is: "Think once, twice, three times before committing to foreign wars". But the trouble with our political leaders has long been delusions of grandeur. Britain is no longer a world power and we need to realise that. Until we do, we will continue to get ourselves in a fine old mess.
Re: Another fine mess
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 06:08 am (UTC)
That sounds about right
Does this make sense?
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 06:02 am (UTC)
"Even if we planned to do this, it simply would not be politically acceptable because of the sacrifices which have been made there,"

From a military point of view, I tought holding a place for political reasons only, was a last resort.
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 06:06 am (UTC)
"But in Kabul, Brigadier General Eric Tremblay, a Canadian officer in the International Security Assistance Force, said the south of Afghanistan would remain the focus for the Nato campaign. "No one is pulling out and we continue with our military strategy."

I tought the Canadians were pulling out.
Am I wrong to think this?
If we leave the Afghans will fight each other, not bomb London
[info]iunomoneta wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 07:40 am (UTC)
If we leave the Afghans will be too busy fighting each other to bomb London, they didn't follow the Russians back to Moscow and 7/7 had no Afghan connection. Terrorist attacks can be planned anywhere and the mountains of Afghanistan aren't the best place to have a 'training camp' to set off bombs in Britian's cities.
Re: If we leave the Afghans will fight each other, not bomb London
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:43 am (UTC)

UK became a target after we invaded, thanks to Blairs special relationship with Bush.
POLITICIANS DON'T CARE WHAT VOTERS WANT
[info]sidsnot wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 07:55 am (UTC)
As soon as a politician starts saying "It's what the voters want" you can be sure that something has gone "tits-up" and they are looking for an excuse to wriggle out of it. After the farce of a "democratic" election they show very little interest in the mug voter preferring to instruct him in every little detail about how he should run his life and do the politician's bidding.
Nail your flags to the post
[info]kingofmumu wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 08:27 am (UTC)
Our troops are to defend our soil, not to be killed on someone elses, for private business interests. The US and UK governments have conned the forces as it has most of us. Their policies are the breeding ground for future terrorists ( people who object to invasion and you stealing their assets). If this dangerous coalition's objectives are domination by murder and theft and deceit, they should come from behind their self righteous veil of lies, and accept the concequences of the electorate.
Re: Nail your flags to the post
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:03 am (UTC)
Other than civil wars and uprisings our troops have not needed to defend our soil since 1066 as there have been no invasions since then. Would you also have objected to fighting in WW2 because it was not on our soil.
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]reinertorheit - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:18 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]sidsnot - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:46 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]uanime5 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 10:30 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]kingofmumu - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 04:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]matt_91912113 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Nail your flags to the post - [info]kingofmumu - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 05:08 pm (UTC) Expand
And David Cameron says?
[info]billdavy1949 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:23 am (UTC)
Sometimes one has to have a change of government because they become too entrenched.

Mind you, the media do us no favours by banging on about "u-turns". It's like calling local variations in service a "post code lottery" which encourages government to centralise things.

Do we really get the media we deserve, or does the media turn us into what it needs?

Crap country this has become.
American Poodles.
[info]billbeeby52 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:45 am (UTC)
Lets face it we are in Afghanistan because the Americans want us to be there, shoulder to shoulder as Blair said.We will eave when we are told to.
Nice bias
[info]had_it wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 10:26 am (UTC)
46% is not less than half, but almost half
"involvement in the conflict, with its rising toll of casualties"

The independnt has been trying to drive the UK into abandoning the Afghan people for the past 3 years. Why? what is their agenda?

Is it just the modern desire for all political journalists to be a member of the opposition to whomever they cover? Or do the Independent's owners have some deeper financial interest in a civil war or a failed state in Afghanistan?
Re: Nice bias
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 10:52 am (UTC)

May be, just may be, some people dont like to see civilians being killed on a daily basis.

How would you feel if the UK was invaded, because we are friends of a proven nuclear terrorist nation like the USA, so for 6 year period the invasion carries on and civilians are being killed daily - a bit unhappy me thinks.
Re: Nice bias - [info]had_it - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nice bias - [info]corporeal_v001 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:23 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nice bias - [info]had_it - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:58 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Nice bias - [info]corporeal_v001 - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 12:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Nice bias - [info]had_it - Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 12:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Confusion Confusion
[info]caurnie1 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 10:43 am (UTC)
British people are confused by our politicians. Why are we in Afghanistan? Our political masters appear to change the reason to suit THEIR AGENDA. What is the truth? John Reid told us that he hoped our troops would not have to fire a shot. Blair told us it was to fight the drug problem on our streets by ridding Afghanistan of poppy fields. Johnston tells us its to protect the UK country from mass immigration. Brown tels us it is to protect the UKs security. Is it any wonder that the people of UK are confused. Afghanistan is the clearest example we have of this Government's lack of strategy and it is putting the lives of our soldiers at high risk.
What will happen?
[info]leonore1935 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:16 am (UTC)
Quote from Afhani 'if NATO leaves Taliban will control whole country in 48 hours'
Quote from Taliban on the victims of suicide bombers. 'They deserve to die because they live under a corrupt government' ie. if you are not Taliban you desrve to die.
What is forgotten is that a fair majority of Afhans do not want the Taliban to take over. The comparison to Vietnam is often drawn. After N Vietnam took over there were 're education' camps for huge numbers of people, thousands drowned risking their lives trying to get away to other countries. also a massive refugee problem that lasted for decades.
The Taliban won't bother with re education they will just execute anybody they think cooperated with NATO. The fate of women is easy to imagine. Education will cease as it is seen as Western, elections also will cease. There will be a huge refugee problem once again. Pakistan will be left trying to deal with everything and will likely be unable to cope with their own Islamists.
In WW2 we fought to free Europe and Asia/Pacific from tyranny, we fought for human freedom and dignity, for human rights.
This should be the focus of our fight in Afgahnistan. It would be a lasting shame on the UK to back down and it will be seen as a victory for Islamisists everywhere who will start looking for their next victims. they will have tons of cash to finace anything they like.
The press in Uk have been campaigning to turn public opinion against the war for years. It is very rare to see a posyive article about Afghanistan in any newspaer or on TV. In WW2 this would have been treason.
Why we're there.
[info]davidtraynier wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:21 am (UTC)
The British people aren't stupid, even if they are subject to a torrent of propaganda from the mainstream press.

The US invaded Afghanistan because the Taliban refused to extradite a suspect (bin Laden) with evidence, as was their right. In fact, not only did the US and UK refuse to give evidence, the UK released a document, published in the press in September 2001, which stated that they effectively had no evidence. Even eight months later, the FBI reported finding no evidence connecting Afghanistan with 9-11. That was the first crime, attacking a country for refusing to extradite a suspect without evidence.

In October, we committed a second crime. Sir Michael Boyce told the Afghan people, via the New York Times, that they needed to realise that the bombing would continue 'until they got their government changed'. That's a textbook example of international terrorism.

We are now, on the face of it, guilty of proscuting an aggressive war, which was not authorized by the UN Security Council. That should make the executive at the time -Blair, Brown, Hoon etc- liable to prosecution for war crimes. The decent thing for this country to do would be to withdraw and self refer to the ICC.
Voters?
[info]leonore1935 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 11:38 am (UTC)
Your headline implies that the survey represents voters when it only shows the view of a small number of people who answered your survey. This common in the press to use misleading or emotive headlines. You headline should read responders to our survey say. but that would not give the message you want would it?
Confusion Confusion.
[info]chipmem1 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 12:11 pm (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. Then there's Blair telling us all this has nothing to do
with Islam, with the Americans saying the complete reverse and sending us
films of jihadiis praying over joysticks, then there's some liberal Mp telling
us we're there because of the way the taliban treat woman.


I'm amased they've had as much public support, the whole thing has been
riddled with inconsistances.
Brown, Blair et al are Traitors
[info]conscious2 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 12:36 pm (UTC)
They lied us into this war and they lie to continue it. What greater act of treason is there to lead our nation into war and happily sacrifice our brave young men to prop up a corrupt and despotic American puppet government.

Brown and Blair you are traitors you need to be thrown from office and into gaol.
DaveP
[info]davep111 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 07:14 pm (UTC)
There is no contradiction in our efforts in Afghanistan and keeping the terrorists at bay over here.

1. The first point to make is that if Afghanistan is left to fester as a terrorist safe haven, then there will be more attacks on the West, planned from there.

2. Our whole effort therefore is to take the principles of liberal democracy and tolerance to both countries.

3. It is these principles whose application in the UK and the West, that allow ethnic and religious minorities, particularly Islamic ideology and practice, to function in Britain without hindrance.

4. Why should Muslims in the West, demand tolerance for themselves and their cultures, which for many are barbaric, while opposing that same effort directed to a country such as Afghanistan?

If Britain and the West cannot extend the principles of liberalism and tolerance to Muslim countries because it offends Muslims in the West, giving Muslims justification to execute terrorist plots from within, then such Muslims are really not friendly citizens but enemy aliens - they are the enemies of liberty, freedom for women, and tolerance of all. As it is impossible to distinguish a terrorist from a non-terrorist Muslim, the entire Muslim community’s loyalty and allegiance is then open to question.
Re: DaveP
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 07:48 pm (UTC)

What the hell are you on about?
You are aware we living in 2009 and not 1809?
Is your surname, by any chance, Cheney or Rumsfield or Griffin or Hitler?
Re: DaveP - [info]davep111 - Thursday, 12 November 2009 at 01:50 am (UTC) Expand
Weak MPs
[info]stickytruth2 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 at 09:23 pm (UTC)
Lets get to the bottom line, There is no one in the HoCs to tell the White House we are pulling out.
Our troops are being sacrificed every days by gutless decision from the PM and MoD.
This is the time to break up NATO, which is commanded by the America/Pentogon/Neocons, in the past the Pentogon said no other country will commend their troops, so why should our troops take orders from them.
Let's face Gulf War I & II were started to protect Israel, We Wonder Why?
Remember the Truth Hurts and it sticks.
Afghanistan
[info]stuarttootell wrote:
Thursday, 12 November 2009 at 12:09 am (UTC)
I will say yet again why are we involved in another states civil war ?

The vested interests of the oil companies and the arms manufacturers are the reason we are sending our troops into Afghanistan.

Under equipped,under funded and under supported by this current government our soldiers are fighting a battle on two fronts one of those fronts is a known enemy .

The other is the silent enemy i.e. Gordon Clowns misadministration and that well known American puppet, President Karzia (Karzi in my view is a more correct name). Karzia is indeed managing a corrupt self serving drug dealing extorsionist regime for his and his family and his cronies sole benefit.

Get our troops out they are not cannon fodder for the Afghan regime,leave the country to the Taliban indeed the Afghanis in all theiR treachery deserve them.

Have we not learnt from the Russian experience,have not the Americans learnt from the Viet Nam experience as well as the Russian experience ?

Get our troops out now.



Perhaps the oil companies and the arms manufacturers should be employing mercenaries rather than British troops to fight their proxy war
Re: Afghanistan
[info]davidtraynier wrote:
Thursday, 12 November 2009 at 09:35 am (UTC)
I agree that we are in Afghanistan for the sake of business interests. After all, the US had been planning to invade before September 11th happened and the US had already secured Indian support.

I don't agree that he Afghans are not guilty of treachery, though. They are doing exactly what we would have done had we been invaded.

We invaded Afghanistan. We bombed and killed a defenceless and impoverished population who were incapable of fighting back except through guerilla tactics. That is the brute truth of the matter.

We have no rights because invading armies do not have rights. The Afghans owe us nothing whatsoever whereas we have a debt of shame to them that can never be paid.

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