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Summertime camps boom: The 'Godless alternative' for non-believers

Even atheists are joining the rush to take the American way and pack off the kids for fresh air holidays. Jerome Taylor reports

The British camp, which will be held in Somerset at the end of July, is the first that Camp Quest has held outside of North America

ALAMY

The British camp, which will be held in Somerset at the end of July, is the first that Camp Quest has held outside of North America

Atheists have become the latest group to cash in on Britain's booming summer camp industry by creating the country's first-ever retreat for irreligious children. Billed as a "godless alternative" to traditional religious summer camps, the five-day retreat is being hosted by Camp Quest, an American organisation which uses the advertising slogan "Beyond Belief" and has a growing following in the States.

The existence of a humanist summer camp where religion is approached in a critical and rational manner adds to a growing pantheon of US-style holiday getaways in Britain ranging from evangelical Bible schools to fat camps for obese teenagers.

Camp Quest was founded in 1996 as an alternative to the Boy Scouts of America, which insists on members signing a "Declaration of Religious Belief". In response Camp Quest set up an alternative summer camp for the children of "atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers and all those who embrace a naturalistic rather than supernatural world view".

The organisation has steadily grown in popularity and Camp Quest now holds annual gatherings in five American states and in Ontario, Canada.

The British camp, which will be held in Somerset at the end of July, is the first that Camp Quest has held outside of North America.

Samantha Stein, the 23-year-old organiser of the British version, attended a Camp Quest in Michigan in 2007 and decided to open up an equivalent camp in the UK.

"When I got back from Michigan I began researching summer camps in the UK and I was surprised by how many had a distinctly religious affiliation," she said. "There are many summer camps that cater for children with religious beliefs but there was nothing for children who are not religious and want to be able to discuss rational humanism with other non-believers."

In recent years Britain's summer camp industry has evolved to offer a vast array of American-inspired retreats, particularly within the evangelical Christian community.

The exact number of religious camps in the UK is unknown but Christian Camping International, an umbrella organisation which represents many of the evangelical groups that run religious getaways, claims more than one million Britons attend faith vacations through their affiliates every year.

Britain's growing obesity problem has also led to an explosion of American-style "boot camps" for overweight children and other versions, from rock camps to eco-retreats.

Camp Quest hopes that non-religious parents who might have been put off from sending their children to a faith-based retreat will now consider it instead. The organisers remain adamant, however, that the camp will not have a proselytising "atheist agenda".

"We don't teach children not to believe in God, we simply tell them it's OK not to believe in God," said Edwin Kagin, the 68-year-old founder of Camp Quest.

Miss Stein, studying for a Masters in religion at King's College London, said you do not have to be an aetheist to attend. "Most who have signed up come from non-religious backgrounds but the camp would be open to anyone who was religious as well," she said.

"We want to provide a space where people can learn that it is OK to be an atheist and that a lack of religion does not mean a lack of morals or ethics."

More than half of the 30 places have already been booked on the camp, which costs £275. Crispian Jago, an IT consultant from Hampshire, is sending his 12-year-old daughter India and 11-year-old son Peter to the camp.

"We're a non-religious family but not anti-religion," he said. "A lot of my religious friends insist their morality stems from a divine source rather than a natural one but I want my children to know they can have morals and ethics without needing to resort to a faith."

The five days in Somerset will consist of traditional outdoor activities such as canoeing and cycling, combined with discussions about religion and non-belief. The centrepiece of the camp is an ongoing discussion where participants are encouraged to try to disprove the existence of unicorns, which serve as a metaphor for God.

Campers are told that two unicorns live in the area and cannot be seen, heard or touched. The adult councillors pretend to believe in the unicorns on the basis that an ancient book handed down through the generations says they exist. The children are encouraged to try to prove that the unicorns do not exist. If anyone is successful they will be awarded a £10 note which has a picture of Charles Darwin on it and is signed by leading atheist academic Richard Dawkins.

In the US the prize is a "godless" $100 bill from before 1957, which was when the US placed the phrase "In God We Trust" on all its notes. No child has definitively disproved the existence of unicorns and won the prize. "The idea of the unicorn debate is not to prove God doesn't exist, it is to illustrate that having such debates with religious people is futile because in the end faith trumps everything," said Miss Stein.

In recent months British atheists have begun reasserting themselves against what they believe is the increasing political demandsof faith groups. In January, Christian evangelical groups were forced to launch an advertising blitz after a coalition of non-believers, led by the comedian Ariane Sherine and Professor Dawkins, paid for bus adverts stating: "There is probably no God: now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

Forget 'Hi-De-Hi!': The new breed of camps

Street dancing camp: Want your child to wow the Britain's Got Talent judges? Try urban dance camps in Birmingham.

Rock camp: The YMCA at Fairthorne Manor near Southampton runs a School of Rock but without the drugs.

Eco-camp: Mill on the Brue is a non-profit Somerset based camp that teaches kids the benefits of a environmentally sustainable lifestyle.

Fat camp: Fit Farms in the Peak District has a series of "boot camps" for the overweight, including young people.

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Comments

The French do this too
[info]comradekaff wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 06:24 am (UTC)
For decades there has been a movement for French teenagers, girls and boys, based on the scout and guide movement, but in the great laic tradition of secular France (les Eclaireuses et Eclaireurs de France). It is highly popular and respected. www.eedf.fr

According to friends of mine who have attended the rival Catholic Scouts or Guides de France, some branches of the religious version can resemble quasi military training camps, where young aristo and upper class boys are pushed to their limits to be tough, the backbone of Catholic France. My friends do not exaggerating, we surely all remember the teenage boys drowned at Peros Guirec, ordered to cross a dangerous tidal bay in cockleshell boats by their rather strange, devout and fanatical priest scoutmaster.
"Even athiests"
[info]nealkemp wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 06:28 am (UTC)
Haha, you're lucky we don't have a god to call on to smite you down for comments like that!
What about the woodcraft folk?
[info]emigr wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 07:50 am (UTC)
They're non-religious and surely must have been running summer camps for donkey's years.
[info]drmagyar wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 07:53 am (UTC)
There seems to me to be something wrong with this

Dawkins et al talk a lot about religious indoctrination as child abuse, about Muslim children and Catholic children as being dangerous names. Is irreligious or atheist children the same thing?

How about camps where you just have fun and the whole religious thing is left out completely.

I can't wait for the day when religion is just seen as a terribly quaint idea from a bygone era and no one has to argue for or against it.
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 01:29 am (UTC)
"Dawkins et al talk a lot about religious indoctrination as child abuse, about Muslim children and Catholic children as being dangerous names. Is irreligious or atheist children the same thing?"

No. All atheism is is a lack of belief in god/gods therefore it isn't a belief system. Presumably there will be no mention of a god. It will be a non religious secular alternative. So yes these will be camps where you just have fun and the whole religious thing is left out completely.
But it's so unfair
[info]chrisp666 wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 07:59 am (UTC)
They won't be seen as cool, they won't be able to spend the summer indoors perfecting their gaming skills and destroying what little grasp of English they might have by messaging their friends. I think Ed Balls needs to do something about this, with alacrity.
Unicorns
[info]montymontezuma wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 08:50 am (UTC)
But I want my children to believe in unicorns. Afterall, they're more attractive than Richard Dawkins...
Re: Unicorns
[info]bobav wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 10:37 am (UTC)
Nicely put. I myself am a great believer in music camps....
Well done - just for creating the opportunity...
[info]ianflewis wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC)
Everyone, young and not-so-young, should enjoy a camp once every year or maybe every couple of years. The opportunity to jump out of habits, meet new people, see and do new things in new ways just creates either a better life or confidence that a current life is going well. Perhaps the best thing is just to break the need for security of buildings, streets, cars, electricity, family, local commitments when the whole friendly world is out there waiting to meet with those who have learnt to enjoy their own self-managed, safe adventuring into who they are and what they can really do. Ian Lewis Campaign for Adventure
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 09:57 am (UTC)
It does seem awfully hypocritical that religious people have been accused of "indoctrinating" children, yet a camp like this seems to be doing the same thing.

I also like the following:

"The existence of a humanist summer camp where religion is approached in a critical and rational manner..."

As if those who are religious are neither rational or capable of critical analysis and engage in neither.

Why not just have a camp? Just...camp. I went on several school camps, and scout camps where religion didn't come into either, so why the heavy focus on a "godless" camp, and the assertation that there is no alternative for "non-believers"? Surely a secular or general camp IS an alternative to a faith one.
Predictable response from a faith-head...
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 02:43 pm (UTC)
'It does seem awfully hypocritical that religious people have been accused of "indoctrinating" children, yet a camp like this seems to be doing the same thing.'

Did you actually read the article with an open mind, or just through the goggles of your faith-head prejudices, wer_wind_blows? You completely missed this bit, obviously: ' The organisers remain adamant, however, that the camp will not have a proselytising "atheist agenda". "We don't teach children not to believe in God, we simply tell them it's OK not to believe in God," '

'"The existence of a humanist summer camp where religion is approached in a critical and rational manner..."

As if those who are religious are neither rational or capable of critical analysis and engage in neither.'

Well, I'm sorry, but if the shoe fits, wear it. Irrationality and poor skills of critical analysis ARE traits of your typical god-botherer, I'm afraid. You might not recognize this unflattering truth, or want to accept it, but that doesn't make it any less true.

And while I agree with your last comment about how there shouldn't really be a need for a specifically humanist summer camp, the sad reality is that while faith groups and religious proselytizers hijack summer camps to infect children with the mind-viruses of their silly, dangerous beliefs, there will also be a need for humanist summer camps to inoculate children against them. Only when faith-based summer camps disappear, along with their proselytizing, indoctrinating threat, will it be safe for humanist summer camps to do likewise.
Re: Predictable response from a faith-head...
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:58 pm (UTC)
If they don't critically teach that it's their choice to believe or not to believe in God, they are indoctrinating.

We all have a bias, so don't pretend like I'm the only one with a world-view.

Irrationality and poor skills of cricial analysis are traits typical of human beings in general, but people will always assume that those of faith are the only ones who have these traits :) it's true that there are many who do irrationally and poorly defend their faith, but there are also many who do the opposite. The point I'm making is that an assumption is made that NO ONE of faith is rational or critical when there is an entire field around criticically analysing the Bible undertaken by those who believe it.

So I do accept that there are those who are irrational, but I don't accept that that applies to all. And how would you deal with those who are? Also, are you willing to recognise or accept the unflattering truth that ALL people are capable of being irrational, uncritical and close-minded, atheists included?

How are religious people hijacking summer camps? If they make their own summer camps and invite anyone to come or not come, they're hardly hijacking.

And what exactly is the "mind virus" they are "infecting" children with?

In this particular camp, they're not taught specifically not to believe God's exist, but they're taught how to potentially believe He doesn't exist. Subtle indoctrination, but still indoctrination.
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 01:36 am (UTC)
"As if those who are religious are neither rational or capable of critical analysis and engage in neither."

You said it yourself. Anyone who believes in an invisible man in the sky despite all evidence pointing otherwise demonstrates the point. Faith isn't rational or indeed logical. Faith is believing without evidence. Religions are lies. One day Christianity will be treated as mythology just like the ancient world's religions. And I for one can't wait! Bring on the secular camps!
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Friday, 1 May 2009 at 12:51 pm (UTC)
Actually, the article implied it first before I said it, hence why I noted it.

Who believes in an invisible man in the sky? Common misconception there ;)
Faith isn't rational or logical? Interesting then that many people believe that nothing can produce everything we see in the universe despite evidence to the contrary, or that given enough time, the impossible becomes highly probable. It takes a greater deal of faith to believe that all we see here came through random processes despite all evidence to the contrary.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It is not believing without evidence, it's confidence in what isn't right in front of you in it's entirety, but that you're absolutely certain will come.

Those who place faith in God do so because they see evidence of His existence, His majesty, His justice, His love and His creativity, and they believe that He is active in what He created.

Religions are misconceptions. Mankinds own attempt to build a stairway to heaven from his own resources. Doesn't work that way. Indeed, one day religions will cease for Jesus Himself said:

"For the day is coming when you shall neither worship on this mountain or in temples, but those who worship the Father shall worship Him in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such to be His worshippers."

I for one can't wait either :p

I will say before I go though that it's ironic that people say other religions will fade into mythology like the ancient world religions, when Greek Mythology has had and still has a MASSIVE influence on modern thought and science. Even though they may have attributed gods to different aspects of creation, the greek ideas were very similar to naturalism and neo-darwinism.
[info]bemjammin wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 10:06 am (UTC)
kind of cool, but just a summer camp where they don't feel the need to mention religion would be nice too
I don't care who the organisers are, I wouldn't go on one!
[info]indigodavei wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 10:43 am (UTC)
The idea of summer camp sounds hideous to me, regardless of whether its organisers are theists or non-theists.

'Everyone, young and not-so-young, should enjoy a camp once every year or maybe every couple of years,' says ianflewis. Why? What has 'everyone' done to diverse this torture? We really need to remember that not all kids are the same, and while summer camp may indeed do some of them some good, it will be a waking nightmare for others. Forget the doxia and think of the praxis - it is not one size fits all.

Thank God (?!) the notion of a British summer camp was unheard of in my day - that is, unless you watched 'The Double Deckers'!
Forest School Camps
[info]challacombe1 wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC)
I went to the first camp in 1947 - my children and grandchildren have followed - outdoor adventure, simple camping, woodcraft, plenty of opportunity for discussion. Life shaping and life affirming. No need to invent unicorns or gods - children (and adults) shape and test their own beliefs when sitting around the campfire and sleeping under the stars.

Christian Summer Camps
[info]jimhammett wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:25 am (UTC)
Something like 50,000 young people every summer enjoy a Christian summer camp and despite comments to the contrary are not 'indoctrinated' by their experience. They are presented with biblical material that they can then make their own mind up about and decide whether it is something they wish to consider further.
Those that don't want to hear about a loving, caring God can choose themselves to go to an atheist camp if they wish to. That's their right to choose and make their own personal decision of faith or 'no faith'. Long may that option remain!
Jim Hammett, Chief Executive, CCI. www.cci.org.uk
Re: Christian Summer Camps
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 03:05 pm (UTC)
How does your first statement

"...despite comments to the contrary are not 'indoctrinated' ..."

not conflict with your second statement

"They are presented with biblical material that they can then make their own mind up about and decide whether it is something they wish to consider further."

????

If they are not intended as aids in indoctrination, then what are these 'biblical materials' doing there in the first place?

"Those that don't want to hear about a loving, caring God can choose themselves to go to an atheist camp if they wish to."

That statement is so incredibly smug and patronizing - it is a perfect example of what atheists find so irritating and offensive about the 'godly'.
Re: Christian Summer Camps
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 01:45 am (UTC)
Those that don't want to hear about a loving, caring God can choose themselves to go to an atheist camp if they wish to. That's their right to choose and make their own personal decision of faith or 'no faith'.

I don't want to hear about your imaginary god. Presumably, if you believe in a caring god you also believe in an evil spiteful god that causes war, famine, death, poverty, starvation etc etc etc. The point is that there hasn't been alternative camps to go to. Until now if you wanted to go to camps you had to be indoctrinated by the Christian mafia. Also, its not really up to the kids to choose but the parents. Furthermore, if it is their own personal decision then they don't need the bible shoved down there throats when they could be doing more worthwhile and fun activities. If you allow them to make a choice then I guess you also present them with Koranic material? If you really want people to make a personal decision about faith then you shouldn't have "christian camps". Keep the religion out of it and let them decide when they are adults or are you scared they won't be as easy to brainwash once they grown up?
Thanks for spelling my name correctly
[info]crispianjago wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:54 am (UTC)
All in all I thought it was a fair article that gave a pretty accurate portrayal of the aims and goals of Camp Quest. Not knowing the journalist, I did have a few worries about talking to the press and how the article might have portrayed Camp Quest and my specific reasons for booking my children onto the camp, but my worries were unfounded.

I am of course aware that journalists often take a number of sources and reviews and then distil them down to the story they are interested in, so I was fully prepared to be edited out completely or restricted to a short sentence. Especially as I was only providing a token parental anecdote to give a sample opinion of those signed up to the concept. The quote attributed to me in the article above was, I am pleased to say, relevant and accurately reported.

I did however want to use the comments facility to repeat my other reasons for booking my children onto the camp that did not make the final edit.

I did mention that I would be equally happy to send my children on a general summer camp not affiliated to any particular faith purely for the physical activities (which I know my kids are looking forward to). As I suspect a week away from home would help teach valuable responsibility and social skills. As long as I knew they was no hidden religious agenda. If we lived in a world were ancient myths were not afforded such reverence then I would concede that specific non religious camps would not be needed. Sadly we do not yet live in such a world.

I also mentioned the usefulness of learning some basic logical philosophy and critical thinking skills of which I have seen little evidence in their school work. I would hope that the thinking skills taught at Camp Quest are applied to a wider set of credulous beliefs to help children evaluate and reach their own decisions on a wide range of topics such as alternative medicines, paranormal claims and conspiracy theories.

The other point I made to the journalist was my belief in the need to teach children how to think, not what to think. From my research on Camp Quest I have confidence that this exactly what they aim to do. I have no more desire to have my children indoctrinated into an Atheist viewpoint than I have to have them indoctrinated into a Jewish, Islamic or Christian viewpoint. I just want them to be able to think for themselves and reach a logical and rational explanation for the world they will inherit from us.
Re: Thanks for spelling my name correctly
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 03:21 pm (UTC)
"As long as I knew they was no hidden religious agenda. If we lived in a world were ancient myths were not afforded such reverence then I would concede that specific non religious camps would not be needed. Sadly we do not yet live in such a world."

Exactly - if the religious have their camps, the non-religious must have theirs too, to offer an alternative and strike a balance. And the religious cannot accuse non-religious summer camps of 'atheist indoctrination' (which is a lie, anyway) while still trying to claim that their religious camps do not attempt religious indoctrination (which is also a lie, of course - they patently DO).

When I was young, my parents were members of the local church, friends of the local vicar, and enrolled us in Sunday School, so it could be argued they tried their damnedest to turn me and my siblings into good little Christians (I am happy to report that they ultimately failed miserably). I also used to go to 'cubs', but I was eventually put off the whole thing, and never progressed to the 'scouts', because everything with Jesus-this and God-that, and I just got sick of everyone ramming religion down my throat at every turn (which I knew, even at that age, to be a load of silly, superstitious tosh). I wish there had been a humanist alternative to Sunday School and the cubs/scouts when I was young - I would have loved it!
Re: Thanks for spelling my name correctly
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 01:52 am (UTC)
Nice post sickofstupidity. I'd like to reiterate your call for a humanist alternative to Sunday School and cubs/scouts. Also, lets get religious education out of schools, abolish faith schools, remove visits to church and stop religious assemblies. Perhaps humanism should be presented in religious education and lets have some humanist assemblies!
Re: Thanks for spelling my name correctly
[info]crispianjago wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 10:11 am (UTC)
Thanks for the reply to my comment, in case you?re interested my full comments and other related articles are on my blog: http://crispian-jago.blogspot.com/
It is time
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 12:40 pm (UTC)
that parents who have enough intelligence to realize that all religions have been created out of fantasies and hatred have held sway over the minds of children for too long of a time. There is no god--but the invention of a myth in an attempt to control people--what they thought (the rejection of any particular saviour out of the 17 crucified saviours in the world's literature), how they dressed (Muslim and other dictates on pants, dresses, scarves, headgear), ate (the Old Testament forbids eating shell fish, hamburgers [mixing meat with the milk of its mother (cheese)], and more--as seen in the absurd clothing for women in Muslim societies, the headware of conservative Jews, the robes of Buddhists, and the dresses of the Christian clergy and their individual sects codes, such as the Jehovah Witnesses forbidding women to wear pants. It is time that people celebrate life and stop worrying about an afterlife that there is no scientific proof exists--as there is no scientific proof that a god or goddess (singular or plural) exist.
Why Not
[info]ooptec wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 01:44 pm (UTC)
Just have a camp where dog, for or against is never mentioned
Belief in a God is not support for doctrine.
[info]superkeith wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 01:54 pm (UTC)
Belief in a Supreme Being is not a problem since it can never be proved either way. What is a problem and has no historical provenance is much of the doctrine of organised religions. There is an assumption by some that because an ethos claims the status of a religion it will have good standards of morality and ethics and is entitled to some kind of privilege, yet, in my opinion, much of the doctrine of the organised religions has low standards of morality and ethics and is not about goodness. Those not attached to organised religions appear to me, from daily experience and behaviour, to have far higher standards of morality, give greater support to goodness and be more law abiding than those in organised religions. I would not deny freedom of belief but that includes non belief. Certainly non believers must have equal rights to their views and the right to be offended by religious tenets that they consider lacking in morality and to express that, OR WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DEMOCRACY. Organised religions have created a vast hypothesis balanced on a pinhead of dubious evidence.
Re: Belief in a God is not support for doctrine.
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:01 am (UTC)
Excellent post. As a proportion of there respective populations there are more Christians in prison than you would expect and less atheists in prison than you would expect based on population figures. Morality is a separate entity to religion. The religious persecute minority groups such as homosexuals, engage in religious wars and teach abstinence causing untold suffering to millions. Abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research and pedophilia... We need a secular society based on liberal values. We need the separation of Church and state. The irony is is that the religious preach higher moral values compared to the "godless" when all evidence suggests otherwise. Religion is a disease.
I'm open minded but...
[info]veeneemoo wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 07:46 pm (UTC)
What a strange thing to ask children to do...
[info]veeneemoo wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC)
Also... Atheism is a belief in itself no?
And I've worked at a number of camps over the last ten years and religion doesn't come into at all. THis whole thing just actually baffles me... they're not 'godless' if they're asking children to prove a man-made creature doesn't exist. Why not just ask them to prove God or Allah or whoever doesn't exist?

All in all... does it matter if they do or don't? If everyone just kept their beliefs to themselves and got on with it, the world would be an incredibly peaceful place...


[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:03 am (UTC)
Atheism is a lack of belief just as not collecting stamps is a lack of a hobby.
[info]proudtolovegod wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 09:37 pm (UTC)
Oh the athiests are harping on again, what a load of nonense and what a shame athiests have such a chip on their shoulder, my children are desperate to go on another Scripture Union holiday so we wont be going to the alternative.
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:09 am (UTC)
LMAO. Atheists harping on! That is rich. "What a load of nonsense" - you shouldn't refer to your religion that way. Me thinks that you are the one that is desperate for your children to go on another "Scripture Union holiday" whatever the hell that is. I bet your kids will be praying for divine intervention when the religious nutters keep banging on about jebus. Shame there is no such thing as god. The alternative? You mean the one that doesn't include all the religious proselytizing. P.S. we have a chip on our shoulder because we have been persecuted by religious clowns like you for too long.
Silly.
[info]neispace wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 10:46 pm (UTC)
If the point of this camp is to provide a basis of morality without faith, why is the only example of the camp is teachings kids a basic apologetic for atheism for a reward? That won't do anything to help them become better people or deal with how to be moral, it just turns them into mini-dawkins.
Re: Silly.
[info]kyrillp wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:15 pm (UTC)
There's more to it than apologetics. Atheism has a history as rich as any religion. The basis for morality comes from a feeling of being part of a larger culture and tradition. This is something that Dawkins undermines on a regular basis but learning more about scepticism could only show kids that being an atheist doesn't need to mean being like richard dawkins.
Twisted Logic
[info]mydh12 wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:42 pm (UTC)
"The children are encouraged to try to prove that the unicorns do not exist....No child has definitively disproved the existence of unicorns and won the prize."
I don't understand their logic. Are atheists showing the kids that they can NOT disprove the existence of unicorns (God)? That seems to go against what the atheists' aim. Besides, Christians usually point more toward their evidence FOR God existence. It seems to me that the atheists would want to spend their time trying to argue AGAINST the Christians' arguments of evidence FOR God's existence. That is unless the atheists think that they don't have really good arguments against the Christians' arguments FOR God.
Re: Twisted Logic
[info]whatacrapname1 wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:11 am (UTC)
Please tell me what evidence there is for gods existence.
Re: Twisted Logic
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)
Design in nature
Design in the universe
Design in creatures
The anthropic principle
The law of biogenesis
Laws of nature
Natural selection
Logic
Mathematics
Intelligence
Conscience
Empathy
Morality
Information
Rationality
Reason
Recognition of beauty
Recognition of music
Recognition of art
Creativity
Language
The Bible
Historical support
Archeological support
Experiential support
Fulfilled prophecy

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