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Commons in uproar over Mail sell-off

Independent survey finds opposition from all parties to Royal Mail privatisation

By Andrew Grice, Political Editor

Postal workers protest against plans to part-privatise Royal Mail outside Parliament yesterday

PA

Postal workers protest against plans to part-privatise Royal Mail outside Parliament yesterday

The partial sell-off of Royal Mail is opposed by MPs of all parties, which could spell defeat for the Government, a survey for The Independent has found.

As Labour rebels warned that the proposals would spell "electoral suicide" for the party, the ComRes survey showed that their doubts are shared by some Tory and Liberal Democrat MPs.

That could make it harder for ministers to rely on the votes of Tory MPs to force its plans through Parliament even though the Opposition backs them.

Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, will publish a Bill tomorrow to allow the Government to sell about a third of its stake in the Royal Mail. But the move has been condemned by 125 Labour MPs.

The survey of 154 MPs from all parties found that only 28 per cent of Labour backbenchers back the Government's line that a part-privatisation deal is the only way to safeguard the long-term future of the Royal Mail, while 58 per cent oppose it – a margin of more than 2-1 against. There is more support among Tory MPs, 64 per cent of whom support the Government's approach. But 28 per cent oppose it, suggesting that some Tories may join with the Labour rebels to oppose the Bill. Among the Liberal Democrats, 53 per cent endorse the partial sell-off while 43 per cent reject the idea.

If the survey's findings are reflected when the Commons votes on the sell-off in the next few months, the Government would be defeated by 47 per cent to 39 per cent.

Labour MPs joined more than 500 postal workers as they staged a lobby of Parliament. Billy Hayes, general secretary of the Communication Workers Union, said: "Today is about people's democracy against the political elite."

Michael Connarty, a Labour MP, warned that the plans would "divide the Labour movement down the middle" and result in the party "committing suicide in front of the electorate".

Another Labour MP, John Grogan, claimed that at least three cabinet ministers were opposed to the sell-off. "I know because they have spoken to me and told me they are," he said.

But Lord Mandelson insisted: "The top and bottom line is that our policy will keep Royal Mail in the public sector and our legislation will make this clear. But Royal Mail will run out of money to sustain its current universal, six-day service unless its pension fund deficit is solved and its business transformed."

Adam Crozier, Royal Mail's chief executive, told the Commons Business Select Committee the group faced declining mail volumes and an increasing pensions deficit, adding: "We are going to have to do some pretty difficult things otherwise the company will not survive."

Kenneth Clarke, the shadow Business Secretary, said the Tories were ready to provide the Government with a majority. "We will support the part-privatisation plans, because what the taxpayer needs is a fully modernised and efficient postal service that can compete with the best in the world. It's the best way to secure a future for Royal Mail and make sure that we can send mail anywhere in the country for the same price," he said.

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Pension deficit caused by Pension Holiday?
[info]rattlerbytes wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 01:24 am (UTC)
Why doesn't someone ask The Post Ofice how much the pension deficit would be had it not taken a pension contribution holiday for as many years as it did several years ago? If of course there'd now be any deficit at all had it continued paying contributions like it's employees had to!
I'd really like to know the amount The Post Office paid in the year preceding the pension holiday it took, and then multiply it by the number of years it enjoyed when paying nothing. Perhaps there would still be a deficit but I believe it wouldn't be anywhere near the amount currently quoted.
Re: Pension deficit caused by Pension Holiday?
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 06:00 pm (UTC)
I'm glad somebody knows about these things, i thought the postmen all paid into their pension fund and that that was held in trust for them. a deficit to me means that someone has stolen it, but what do I know?
Re: Pension deficit caused by Pension Holiday?
[info]rattlerbytes wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 08:51 pm (UTC)
Of course all Postmen do pay into their pension fund, as do all other Post Office employees. That is one part of the deal, the other being that the Post Office, as the employer, also pays into the same fund. My arguement is that if the Post Office had not stopped making it's pension contributions for that period of many years (the 'pension holiday' as it's often referred to) the deficit might not be as much as is currently stated. It just annoys me to continually hear how the actual blame for the deficit is placed totally on the declining market when no-one actually puts this fact to the Post Office and the Government. I'm not a pensions expert but I believe the deficit is measured by how much is in the pension pot and how much would have to be paid out if it had to be paid out immediately, i.e. there would be a large deficit and the Post Office wouldn't be able to meet it's committments.
Re: Pension deficit caused by Pension Holiday?
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:09 pm (UTC)
oh, I see, I did not know it had done that- nor do most people I bet

since you are obviously an expert on these things why not get the Indie to do a full scale investigation.

I have always thought of pension funds as sacrosanct but hmmm. maybe not,
,most important none of the journalists interviewing Mandy etc EVER ask why is there a deficit, first question to ask I would have thought. the good thing about having people like yourself to make comments such as yours is that you educate me- thank you
A Solution?
[info]thisanthat wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 02:59 am (UTC)
Those who have the entitlement to Public Sector Pension funding know when they are on to a good thing. A high percentage of ones final take home pay is reward indeed for a life times endeavour.
This sort of approach was at one time highly prevalent in the private Sector (Where the wealth generated determines a nations well-being.) until it became unsustainable due to a number of factors but mainly over taxation.
We all know where a good deal of these funds are directed, in effect the Public Sector Pension Pot.
The solution adopted in the Private Sector was sweeping indeed. Many of the leading wealth generating companies resolved the matter with restructuring in the form of massive compulsory redundacies for the majority of staff. Company pensions were frozen and deferred and staff re-employed under more favourable terms and conditions to the company concerned.
With about twenty five percent of the working population in public service employment with over generous benefits that are dagging the nation down, this is the type of solution needed to save nation from armageddon!
[info]cm999 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 08:05 am (UTC)
Presumably the need to consider this privatisation is an implicit admission of failure by Mr Crossier and his team. I presume that they will be resigning without golden parachutes and any pension they are entitled to subject to the same conditions and risks as all other Royal Mail employees.
[info]deimosp wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:29 am (UTC)
Mandleson seems to be quite involved in the management and running of things in the UK - but when was he elected to that role ?

Or is this just anothe run-elected person messing with things he has no mandate for ?

Ian
Accountability?
[info]forwardplanning wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC)
Agreed.

What is even more galling is that the other parties behave in a way as though this is acceptable!
Re: Accountability?
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 06:06 pm (UTC)
too right, I'm spitting blood about that
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 05:42 pm (UTC)
Mandy is now the de facto prime minister, Gordo has lost his grip. its obvious
This is more to this than meets the eye
[info]forwardplanning wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:33 am (UTC)
There are lots of dynamics at play with this, for and against.

But I still can't help but feel, this sell off is just part of an undisclosed 'master plan' to ensure Britain's irrevocable weakness, achieved through a drive to make our intrinsic assets and utilities foreign owned.

I don't see how the Brits have gained from our utilities being foreign owned.

What is evident we pay substantially more for our Gas, Electricity and Water than our European counterparts, even when that supplier provides a far cheaper utility to their own country! I certainly remember the noise made by the EU about foreign cars being more expensive to buy in the UK than when bought on the mainland.

Funny how there silence from the EU on this unfair pricing is deafening now!
Re: This is more to this than meets the eye
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 02:39 pm (UTC)
We have higher prices because we don't produce enough energy to meet out own needs because Green Peace snd other Eco Nuts keep objecting to all the new power stations. New power stations = cheaper electricity = cheaper utilities.
Royal Mail
[info]40fication wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC)
Mandelson must be stopped now.Have you forgotten the money he and Blair stole to buy his mansion?
The Mail
[info]ventilatorblue1 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 11:49 am (UTC)
Surely this is just being done to rid the government of the RMs pension debt?

The government is screwed if the RM stays in public ownership because that means people will realise that its accounting of the PSBR has been err..specious...PSBR could be anything up to 500% of GDP not the 47% the ONS says it is.

The government is also screwed if it privatises it because it will go down like the poll tax - on top of that mass strikes by its employees will thoroughly nark off the voters as the post stops coming through.

The accounts committee wanted to know what the hell the bank CEOs were doing - couldn't they ask the same question to the electorate? What was everybody thinking? What are people who intend to vote Labour thinking? Perhaps they should be sectioned.
Lord TNT
[info]trojan_horace wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC)
My business depends on the present pricing system for posting parcels using the PO - - I've been using it for 15 years - and in all that time nothing has gone astray within the UK and only one or two lost abroad... in short it's effective.. in fact it's fantastic. There is nothing in the private market that can compete on price - privatisation will inevitably push up the price - which will effectively force me to close my business down - how is this good for the UK economy? When has copying the US business model rather than the european one ever done us any good? Mandelson sucks... he always has. Nobody voted or wants these rightist policies. I am mightily pissed off
Re: Lord TNT
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 02:41 pm (UTC)
The Dutch have a private postal service, the Americans do not. Technically we are follwoing the European model, since we're not following the American one.
Royal Mail
[info]hyufd1 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 02:40 pm (UTC)
Royal Mail is making a profit at the moment but it is seeing a decline in its letter business and is becoming more parcel based. Part privatisation should help to make it become more efficient.
Re: Royal Mail
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:33 pm (UTC)
I feel a bit guilty about using all email and I was brought up to write letters but now that I'm a one handed cripple that saint easy, parcels are dead cheap to send and my postman is a wonderful chap and proud to be a public servant you can't buy that and it isn't a commodity for selling like groceries these bean counters have no idea. anyway why should a public service make a profit?- the police don't nor does the NHS
tory scum
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 05:14 pm (UTC)
the Tory scum say they will vote for privatisation- HUGE MISTAKE - just when some people where thinking that Cameron meant what he said about liberal conservatism, if the Tories vote withZanulabour we will know that that was just a sham. the postal service has been a public service for centuries and has survived 2 recessions and 2 world wars. So, WHO STOLE THE PENSION FUND? why is it in deficit?and what is so magical about private companies?
if they lose letters like they lose data why should we trust them over our good old postmen?- might as well privatise the police and the army using that twisted logic
betrayed
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 05:38 pm (UTC)
I like old Ken Clarke and I feel saddened and betrayed by his statement fat lot he cares
Re: betrayed
[info]rattlerbytes wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:10 pm (UTC)
I quite agree. Until very recently I wasn't aware that the Conservative party were going to be supportive of the proposal to part-privatise the Royal Mail.
I have actually long given up on 'Noo Labour', the party I helped gain office after years of Tory corruption, naively believing it to be the answer that the Country needed. What has been proved is that Labour is worse, and more than that, it knows it and is not the least bit shameful about it at all. I ask myself who can continue to support a party that has blatantly betrayed the very people that elected it to office?
I used to be a tribal voter but no more. I have determined to vote out whatever party screws with me and the next election will see me help nail down the Labour coffin.
I'm surprised I haven't yet been taxed for every letter I've typed in this message, and I just can't understand why anyone who has a pension can still be thinking about supporting Gordon and his cronies. Ever since Labour came in the prospects of any of us, still to reach retirement age, of ever being able to enjoy a stable and financially secure retirement have been diminishing fast!
Labour has been a big bad experiment that has gone disastrously wrong, for too many years we have all fallen for the smoke and mirrors that is the 'substance' of this totally discreditable party!!
Re: betrayed
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 09:22 pm (UTC)
I too was a Bliar supporter until they did unspeakable things to my beloved criminal law and started sucking to the dreadful middle classes and the moneybags, not to mention the war and I am sickened how Gordo bought Thatcherism hook line and sinker(light touch regulation too it seems. then the 42 days made me their enemy. I coined Zanulabour. I too thought Cameron said they would oppose privatising the post too but dogma bit his karma it seems the little shit. I just despair
Re: betrayed
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 25 February 2009 at 10:42 pm (UTC)
Zanulabour are finished and I doubt we''ll hear of them again after june2010. then I shall get schadenfreude in spades doubled. the revenge ofMagnaCarta I shall call it
I will get as much pleasure from the unseating of that Smith bitch as I did that of Portillo

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