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Phone bills 'will rise' to pay for database

By Robert Verkaik, Home Affairs Editor

Ministers want to farm out a Big Brother database of everyone's emails, phone calls and internet use to private companies who will be given the job of storing the data on behalf of the state.

The £2bn cost of the plans could add millions of pounds to phone and internet bills to help pay for new systems to collect and sort private information.

Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, said the Government had rejected the idea of a centralised database because it would impinge on privacy. She favoured a "middle way" in which primary communication companies, such as BT or Virgin, and leading internet service providers would have the job of collating phone, email and web use.

The Home Office wants communications companies to extend the range of information they currently hold on subscribers and organise it so that it can be better used by the police, MI5 and other public bodies investigating serious crime and terrorism.

Ministers estimate that the project will cost £2bn to set up, which includes some compensation to the communications industry for the work it may be asked to do.

"Communications data is an essential tool for law enforcement agencies to track murderers, paedophiles, save lives and tackle crime," Ms Smith said.

"It is essential that the police and other crime-fighting agencies have the tools they need to do their job. However, to be clear, there are absolutely no plans for a single central store."

The primary service providers would have the additional responsibility of collecting information from internet and other communications services which cross their networks.

Under the proposals an individual or household will be given a user ID so the company would be able to organise all the data linked to that ID.

Ms Smith said the Government had no interest in content of emails or phone calls and was only interested in logs showing who was communicating with whom.

The Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, welcomed the decision not to go ahead with a giant centralised database, but called on the Government to publish details about how ministers intended to protect privacy. He said: "You can tell an awful lot about some people's personal circumstances from the people they are talking to and the websites they visit. It is important that the proposals are tightly defined and minimise the level of intrusion with appropriate safeguards in place."

Shami Chakrabarti, director of Liberty, described the decision as a "Home Office climb-down" on a super Big Brother database. "It is a clear signal that the public interest in personal privacy can no longer be ignored, she said. "However, if companies are to be required to hold even more information than they do at present, concerns about access and use become even more important."

Communications service providers already hold large amounts of communications data and an EU directive that came into force this month requires data to be retained for a year.

The Internet Services Providers' Association (ISPA) welcomed the government consultation. Nicholas Lansman, ISPA secretary general, said: "To ensure that any updated law enforcement requirements do not place extra financial burdens on internet service providers, ISPA stresses the importance of cost recovery."

Big Brother: How you're being watched

*Emails: Under European Union rules, communication service providers have to keep details of all email and other internet traffic for 12 months. Ministers now want them to also store details of other internet services that cross their networks.

*Telephone calls: These should be easier to trace and store as the primary communications company will route internet use and emails through a telephone broadband line. Mobile phone companies tend to retain this information for billing purposes.

*Web browsing: An individual's internet history can help law enforcement and security services paint a picture of suspicious online behaviour. There will be no right to see the content of messages left on websites.

*Social networking sites: Ministers have said they want to monitor sites such as Facebook and Bebo. Intelligence gleaned by law enforcement agencies suggests suspects believe they can disguise their identities by leaving messages for co-conspirators on these private access sites. Named public bodies and the police will only be able to see this information if they have made a case under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act.

*Internet telephonic use: Web-phone call software like Skype has become popular because it cuts the cost of making telephone calls. It is the kind of rapid development in new technology which law enforcement agencies want to be able to monitor. More and more telephone calls are being routed over the web, meaning that police are losing the ability to track who has called whom, from where and for how long.

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Comments

Another Nail in the Coffin
[info]loingirder wrote:
Monday, 27 April 2009 at 11:41 pm (UTC)
So not only will our privacy be invaded but we will have to pay for the privilege!
[info]juicybob wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 12:46 am (UTC)
Sound thinking - if your domestic bills are picked up by the taxpayer as "expenses" that is.
What right do the govt have accessing any such networks ? It's absolutely nothing to do with them since they sold it all off years ago. Now it's turned into something they can't manipulate they're scared to death of it and want it back. f@#k off!!
Terror - what terror?
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 05:33 am (UTC)
More billions to be spent in the 'war on terror' but would it be possible to pause, take a step back and look for the enemy?

What is this faceless foe on whom the UK is dedicating so much resources whether money, people or equipment?

Are things not now grotesquely out of proportion? There are many threats to the safety and security of the UK and its citizens but they cover a whole gamut of items including road accidents, swine flu and lightning! How many deaths and injuries have resulted from terrorism and how much resources have been spent on 'security' to protect the public from such a threat?
Re: Terror - what terror?
[info]chrisp666 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:22 am (UTC)
The biggest enemy we face now is that prat Brown with his cohort of snout-in-trough morons.
Re: Terror - what terror?
[info]nickiuk wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 04:49 pm (UTC)
I agree totally, but would the Consertivates be any better
No wonder there is credit crunch.
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:07 am (UTC)
People need less taxes and bills to get rid of the credit crunch and allow the economy to improve, you idiots.
Why don't you appoint me to be the next chancellor of the excheker?
Re: No wonder there is credit crunch.
[info]eto_seadog wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:31 am (UTC)
Well you cant spell :-) But if you can count to 10 the jobs yours !
[info]cm999 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:14 am (UTC)
I dont see how having several databases holding the information rather than 1 big one does anything to reduce the level of invasion of privacy and government snooping. I notice that Cameron and his chums are suitably quiet on the issue. Presumably because they would want the same control over the citizens of this country and are happy for the Govt to implement it
[info]bob_irving99 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:24 am (UTC)
Perhaps the phone companies should show how much this extra monitoring is costing on phone bills, so that we can decide whether we want to pay in or not?
The real terrorists
[info]hodgeey wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:33 am (UTC)
All the evidence shows that we are under continuing terrorist attack from Number Ten Downing Street.
Ir's "1984" AGAIN!!!!!!
[info]memillie wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:00 am (UTC)
I am an American who has become very suspicious of all government...........My God! I bet George Orwell is whirling in his grave!
There is too much going on in the world and no one seems to be taking any time at all to think or even to do what is right. Plus, who is the government thinking of.....not the people that is for sure. What do the boogers want from us, what is power good for, I just don't get it. When we are beaten down, where's the benefit to those in power?
Timing
[info]barncactus wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:05 am (UTC)
The good thing is that these simpletons will be out of office before anything can be done on this topic. They may (possibly) believe that the information will only be about who is communicating with whom but the temptation to start data mining will always be too much. From there it's only a short step to full time surveillance of the whole population.
They are wasting their time on so many of these intrusive databases. Let the police and others do their work in the ways they do elsewhere without snooping on everyone all the time.
Technical Problem Here
[info]gill_greenwitch wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:31 am (UTC)
It seems to me that unless the database is coupled with a 'big brother' camera installed in each and every house, the system is doomed to failure. I have a large extended family and circle of associated friends who might 'drop by' and surf the web or use the phone at any time. I also programmed databases for ten years.

Otherwise, perhaps the government could create a new 'statute' banning us from having friends round to as the only way to ensure the accuracy of their expensive new toy.

Damn, now I've suggested it ...
the real reason
[info]hood_winked wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:39 am (UTC)
All this talk about added security is nonsense. The govt and media whip up stories about security scares just so they can then spend loads of money on protecting us. They do this so they and their cronnies can spend the money on themselves and live the high life - yet another gravy train! Who do you think owns security companies or is at the head of them. Govt officials/civil servants and loads of other cronnies. It's like viruses on the internet - make up a load of viruses and then oh look, make a fortune out of selling anti-virus protection. So it is with the Govt and security - play up the threat then milk the tax payer for money to pay for it. This may or may not be true but you can bet one of them has thought of it.
Re: the real reason
[info]bishbashbong wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:08 am (UTC)
You are absolutely right...

Now extend your line of thinking and realise that if the Government are to "play up the threat" then the Media, the Police, Security companies, Court System, Communication companies, the Church (yes indeed) and others must all be complicit.

Normally I would use the word 'conspiracy' but as we all know the same powers as above have over time managed to associate this word with some form of mental illness. Now why would they do that?

The same powers that have managed overtime to assimilate 'condemnation of Israeli Atrocities' with 'Anti-Semitism'. Now why would they do that?

Keep your open mind and keep asking questions.
What a bargain
[info]bogwart16 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 10:37 am (UTC)
Two billion to track down and apprehend a handful of murderers and paedophiles, most of whom could probably be caught without furthering the aims of the surveillance society. Who is kidding whom aroud here?

I trust they will now be able to track down those dastardly al-Qaeda pigs who are responsible for the 'global pandemic' (sic) of swine fever. Global pandemic in Newspeak means, of course, that there have been no deaths outside of Mexico, but we should be ready to panic and rush screaming through the streets.

Bah humbug.
The Enemy
[info]robred wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:00 pm (UTC)
They are scared by the lack of control they have over electronic media, there are ways to spoof ID and encrypt data, the real villains will use all they know to cover their tracks. This is all overkill to comply with an EU diktat, and will be costly. Next step, to bring snail mail in line all mail will have to be opened and censored at the sorting office to give parity with electronic communication. Obviously to Jaqui Spliff, Gordo the Magician, and the burghers in Brussels, WE are the enemy. THEY are scared of the people who have sussed them out for the corrupt greedy control freaks they are.
Brown Shirt Terrorists
[info]cardrew wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:39 pm (UTC)
The biggest threat to the British people is an oppressive government that has massively eroded civil liberties in just 10 years, and wants to control the actions of every citizen.

They now want to read every e-mail or letter, listen to every telephone conversation, and get their surveillance peons to determine if you are a risk. The next step is to indoctrinate children with their ideals. Then they will also require CCTVs in each house, and pubs to install listening devices.

Soon Jack and Jacqui will introduce laws that anyone criticising the British government is enemy of the state, and must be sent to a correction centre to be brainwashed.

Blair, Blunkett, Straw and Smith have learned their techniques from the old communist regimes in Eastern Europe, and the military dictators of Asia and Latin America.

This charade is all being done in the name of "security", but even after hundreds of ill-conceived laws, the British citizen is less safe now than in 1997.

Like China, all internet traffic will be censored by the government.

Efficiency savings
[info]robdav wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 03:11 pm (UTC)
So 2billion saved by scrapping this daft phone database, 5 billion saved by scrapping ID cards, thats 7bn towards the 9bn 'efficiency savings' of Mr Darling. Where do we get the last 2bn? Any ideas?
Re: Efficiency savings
[info]moresomaplease wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 05:02 pm (UTC)
just print more some and worry about inflation tommorow (oops wrong thread)
Paying for your own chains
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC)
"Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, said the Government had rejected the idea of a centralised database because it would impinge on privacy."

Porkies!

What's happening is very simple: WE are going to pay instead of the Treasury.

Nice one, Gordon, only you could dream up this one.
Police State
[info]bruce_p_w wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 04:16 pm (UTC)
The answer for the terrorists is simple, the good old fashioned Royal Mail. Granted it might make communication slower but so far opening everybodies snail mail hasn't been mentioned.

Jackboots has destroyed democratic freedom in this country and has given 'the terrorists' propaganda coup by oppressing our own citizens.

The only thing George Orwell got wrong was the year!!!!!!! I would have expected this behaviour from Thatcher and her cronies but Jackboots has obviously been on a few KGB (as was) training courses.
Is this politics or the big double standards.
[info]famulla wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 05:22 pm (UTC)
Is this politics or the big double standards. With these adjectives and nouns I think I have no idea what bigot, somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views extremist dogmatist hypocrite chauvinist diehard racist hypocrite chauvinist After that I read this .May I have your views.
Less than a week after the Chancellor proposed a rise in income tax to 50 per cent for the highest earners, the Revenue said that it would spend a quarter of its £4 billion budget on catching tax-dodgers. Lesley Strathie, who took over as the HMRC's chief executive and permanent secretary five months ago, said that the organisation would relentlessly pursue those who bent or broke the rules.
Gordon Brown beat an embarrassing retreat last night when he scrapped his plans to abolish the second-homes allowance paid to MPs as a parliamentary watchdog dashed his hopes of a quick solution to the crisis.
Call to delay MPs' expenses decision
The Commons anti-sleaze watchdog today called for any decisions on the MPs' expenses controversy to be postponed until after the completion of an independent review.
Will a facemask help to protect me, I mean from these lot, not he flue. That I can cope.
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla

Mr Smith's viewing habits!
[info]originaleskimo wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:17 pm (UTC)
Will this mean Virgin media logging all of Jacqui Smith's husbands future orders for pay-per-view porn?
There are just over 12 months until Gormless Gordon and the clueless, grasping morons he leads are consigned to the dustbin of history. Let's hope the bastards are wiped out at the next election; and I'm an ex-Labour voter, to my eternal shame.
Dematerialised ID -- the Home Office have had the answer for six years
[info]david_moss wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:38 am (UTC)
The UK's ID cards scheme is getting nowhere.

Neither ministers nor the civil service can explain why they want them.

Smart cards are the wrong technology.

The biometrics the UK scheme depends on don't work reliably enough.

David Blunkett is ready to give up on the project.

----------

Meanwhile, the value of telecommunications records for crime-fighting has been recognised for decades. Cases are openly reported in the newspapers, there is no secret that phone data often helps to support criminal investigations. There have never been any civil liberties objections.

Within limits, mobile phones identify you, they locate you and they identify your associates, the people you call and who call you. To that limited extent, the mobile phone is an ID card.

So we don't need the proposed new ID cards, we already have better ID cards which we pay for ourselves, which we voluntarily take with us everywhere and which are globally interoperable.

The ID cards scheme has always been a waste of time and money. David Blunkett is right to call a halt.

Falling back on passports, as he suggests, is not completely daft. It is daft if he means the ePassport books we have. But if he means mobile phones, which are passports to the airwaves, then the idea is not completely daft.

All of this was proposed to the Home Office six years ago and several times since and has been ignored. Perhaps now the Home Office would like to stop wasting our money on pointless projects bound to fail and instead concentrate on mobiles. They might like, in other words, actually to achieve some success for a change.

Refs:

http://dematerialisedid.com/BCSL/Campaign.html
http://dematerialisedid.com/Mobiles.html
http://dematerialisedid.com/Biometrics.html
Etc ...
In general, http://dematerialisedid.com
shocking!
[info]garydumbill wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC)
the database state is on its way people, check out this video....
http://www.vimeo.com/4165434
Needed: one set of Privacy/transparency rule for everyone
[info]freedem wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 04:11 pm (UTC)
Amazing how "privacy" policies are so class based. This story is about the UK because that is not even a story in the US as such things are "private" to the company and those paying to have their privacy looted aren't allowed to know.

We need to have one set of rules about what is private, and what is not and enforce that wall across all areas of Human endeavor, both on the side of privacy and on the side of transparency.
Contradiction
[info]pebbens wrote:
Wednesday, 29 April 2009 at 11:03 pm (UTC)
Erm, Centralized Government Database is a privacy concern but Seperate Centralized Private Company Databases are not? Hmm
NOT HAPPY
[info]jessandjohn wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 02:14 pm (UTC)
NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY NOT HAPPY
Phone bills 'will rise' to pay for database
[info]marooncap wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 04:05 pm (UTC)
So we all being snooped on yet again are we?? I am tired of all the Shadowy Terrorists led by that well known bogeyman "Osama Bin Liddin" conducting his operations from street to street in this country!

Stop it already will ya!! Why does'nt Jaqui Smith just come out and tell us that we are NOW ruled by European Union Law and their "Corpus Juris" Concept since 1994!! This means that the State and Law Enforcement agencies IN BRITAIN ARE ABOVE THE LAW and cannot be brought to ACCOUNT!! Thats why no-one saw any covictions of those cops that killed John Charles De Mezines on the Tube and all the cover ups and the clear obstructions of Justice by the IPCC and Cops themselves over the G20 Protests.

Bottom Line is we live in a Police State Control Grid..If we want out..get out of Europe!! I wouldnt trust ANY of the Politicians to do that for us since they are ALL bought and paid for by the EU.
Find this out and more at eutruth.org.uk The people HAVE TO WAKE UP and SOON!!

Marooncap!
[info]sableagle wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 04:48 pm (UTC)
OK I GIVE UP ON DOING THIS RITE

I TRIED TO QUOTE THE TEXT WOT WOZ INTRESTIN BUT I GET TOLE ITS BAD UNICODE INPUT SO I IZ DOIN DIS INSTED

MAYBEE INDIPENDANT WEBSITE LIKE DIS MORE

TWENTY FIFTH MARCH TITLE NOW BIG BROTHER TARGETS FACEBOOK

TWENTY EIGHT APRIL THIS ARTIKUL

I DUN SEE WOT DIFRENT

LIKE SONY PUT ROOTKIT ON UR COMPUTER WIF ANTI ROOTKIT THING SUPPOSED TWO REMOVE ROOTKIT
[info]sableagle wrote:
Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC)
Well, that's very encouraging. The website does allow me to post as long as I post like an utter dunce and don't provide any links or quotations to support what I say.

It seems somewhat ridiculous for the Independent to post articles and allow comments on them but include characters in the articles that will prevent the comments from being posted if the relevant part of the article is actually quoted in the comments.

Then again, I probably shouldn't expect better these days, especially not after "century's" on the Moctezuma article.
Mobile Phones
[info]catfishspy wrote:
Monday, 8 June 2009 at 03:36 pm (UTC)
Mobile phones might come free from the networks with a contract, but they always cost lots of money to replace. If you have a pay-as-you-go phone, you will know. Protect yourself with mobile phone insurance for loss, water damage, theft, international cover and more.

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