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Scrap ID cards now, say Cabinet rebels

Controversial £5 billion scheme should be sacrificed to ease public spending crisis

By Nigel Morris and Colin Brown

Senior cabinet ministers are privately discussing a plan to scrap the Government's £5bn identity cards programme as part of cuts to public spending, The Independent has learnt.

The ministers believe that some "sacred cows" will have to be sacrificed in the effort to reduce Britain's debt mountain. They are raising fresh questions over the future of the ID card programme as the Cabinet faces renewed pressure to find economies beyond a promised £9bn in "efficiency savings".

"My sense is that ID cards will not go ahead," a senior Cabinet Minister said. "We have to find savings somewhere, and it would be better to shelve schemes like this that aren't popular."

A ComRes poll for The Independent today finds 55 per cent of voters favour public spending cuts to reduce Britain's debts, against 38 per cent who want taxes to be increased. It also finds that the Tory lead over Labour has widened from 12 to 19 points since the Budget.

Issuing ID cards will cost more than £5bn over the next decade while scrapping the scheme now would leave the taxpayer with a relatively small compensation bill to pay.

Cabinet sceptics are preparing to use the public spending crunch to push for the scheme to be abandoned before the first cards are issued to British nationals this winter.

David Cameron, the Conservative leader, has said the programme will be scrapped if his party wins the election expected to take place in May 2010.

But Gordon Brown has so far proved immovable on the issue, with Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, insisting last month that the Government was "on track" to introduce ID cards.

However, there is a growing recognition among ministers that after Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, signalled severe spending cuts in the Budget, some "big ticket" projects will have to be scrapped to help reduce the national deficit. The Home Office is widely considered to be particularly vulnerable to cuts.

Stephen Byers, the Blairite former cabinet minister, has become the first senior Labour figure to acknowledge that ID cards may have to be shelved. He also suggested the expensive planned replacement of the Trident nuclear missile system be abandoned.

ID cards were championed by Tony Blair and by David Blunkett when he was the Home Secretary.

Mr Brown was initially hostile to the scheme because of its cost but he became an enthusiastic convert, arguing that it would tackle terrorism, organised crime, illegal immigration and identity fraud.

The first ID cards for British citizens will be issued to some airport workers by the end of the year. A widespread roll-out of the scheme is scheduled to begin in 2011. Foreign nationals have already received the first cards.

The Home Office puts the cost of introducing ID cards for Britons at £4.7bn over the next decade and the additional cost of introducing them for foreign nationals at £326m.

There would be a further unspecified cost to Whitehall departments for accessing the biometric database that will underpin the cards. The Government has just signed contracts worth £750m to set up the scheme, one to upgrade passport application systems and the other to set up the database. The contract for the ID cards themselves will be awarded later this year.

Ms Smith has told MPs that cancelling the contracts would cost the Government "in the region of £40m in the early years".

The £25bn replacement for Trident is the most high-profile major Government project that is at risk, but the cabinet source predicted that it would be saved because of the impact that its cancellation would have on jobs, principally at Barrow-in-Furness, where the submarines are built.

The Trident replacement was designed for the Cold War to penetrate well-defended targets in the Soviet Union or China, and opponents say it has been made obsolete by the new threat of nuclear attack from rogue states lacking sophisticated defences.

"There is a case for shelving Trident Two, but the number of jobs that go with it is just too great," said the Cabinet source. "I just can't see us cancelling a Trident replacement now."

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats Treasury spokesman, said last week that he believed ID cards and Trident were "sacred cows" that would have to go as part of cuts in public spending.

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[info]jonpaulr wrote:
Monday, 27 April 2009 at 11:11 pm (UTC)
I think the reason the gov.t really wanted id cards is that The EU has agreed that passports ill have to have bio metric retana/fingerprint scans on them and that the gov.t knows the british public won't tollerate being told what sort of passports we must have, So the gov.t is trying to sell us new passports by saying they are really an extension of idf cards and that id cards are used to fight terrorism

Teh gov.t not going along with trident replacement something that john biffen, simon hughes and michael portillo agree on , on the other hand has to be welcomed
[info]its_all_hype wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:53 pm (UTC)
johnpaulr you are so wrong. The EU have stipulate no such requirment. The ones calling out for retina scans etc was this country. Using the lie that is was an EU reqirement was by the government to justify the need for ID cards.
[info]juicybob wrote:
Monday, 27 April 2009 at 11:15 pm (UTC)
yeah it's pointless, a waste of money and a huge infringement on liberty that i don't think people were ever going to stand for anyway. How gallant of the idiots elected to represent the people of this country to scrap this shit idea now - are they saying that if money wasn't so tight they'd have continued to believe in it? Absolutely beggars belief while surprising no-one.













[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:49 pm (UTC)
academic now, with pig flu about no-one is going anywhere anyway; I wonder is the yanks have engineered this flu hoping that a pandemic would kill Bin Linerp; plus it surely cures unemployment
SCRAP ID CARDS NOW.!!!
[info]fantazamaraz wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 12:27 am (UTC)

HOO...RAH...!!! Have these political morons finally started to realise what the rest of us ordinary Brits. have known all along. That the ID idea was a nonsensical birdbraind one from the outstart.! Just another
way to expedite us into international bankruptcy.! It wouldn't have worked anyway.....There are enough illegals gypsies, travellers, etc roaming around the uk looking for victims to rob, rape and murder....to start a seperate Country...these people are NEVER going to cooperate if or when authorities demand to view their ID cards...there will just be additional shouting and assault matches between them and our enemic cops.....these parasites don't fear consequences.....they look forward to spending time in our prison resorts....compared to the hell holes and treatment where they came from. Never mind ID cards...put the money to better use....5 billion would be better spent on all the jobless, homeless British Citizens, who, thanks to government incompetency are now suffering their miseries.!
Re: SCRAP ID CARDS NOW.!!!
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:05 am (UTC)
The Daily Mail is the place you.You should try it , you'll love it, they hate minorities too.
Re: SCRAP ID CARDS NOW.!!! - [info]fantazamaraz - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: SCRAP ID CARDS NOW.!!! - [info]spicedoubt - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 12:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: SCRAP ID CARDS NOW.!!! - [info]fantazamaraz - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:46 pm (UTC) Expand
An Expense of Spirit in a Waste of Shame
[info]loftwork wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 12:58 am (UTC)
The UK ID card scheme was always an excuse to feather some very large corporate nests while increasing central control and monitoring of everyone. Any logical analysis showed that it created a massive opportunity for ID fraud, provided no defense against any so-called terrorist threat, would inevitably result in hundreds of thousands of bits of incorrect and unverifiable data floating around while highly personal information would be flogged off to anyone with enough cash to buy it from one of the tens of thousands of registered users. Oh, and the real attraction was that most of the cost would be paid by users, whether they like it or not. Great for police too, who would have been able to stop anyone, anytime to demand a fingerprint to check against your little plastic dogtag.

It is not sufficient that ID cards be scrapped on the grounds that they cost a bit. They should be scrapped because they are a deranged, unscrupulous, undemocratic folly conceived by the most irredeemably nasty, self-obsessed and arrogant government in British history.
Re: An Expense of Spirit in a Waste of Shame
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 04:31 am (UTC)
Well done for pointing a major drive for an ID scheme, namely corporate profit. Other such 'security' items like CCTV and speed camera's have been introduced at massive expense and have never been their performance evaluated properly.

Notice how speed camera's have fallen out of fashion with local councils and local police authorities now that they no longer split the revenue from the fines but are obliged to hand it over to the UK Treasury while retaining the expense and maintenance of the camera's that they rushed to install. Surprise, surprise many are now being removed!
Re: An Expense of Spirit in a Waste of Shame - [info]uanime5 - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: An Expense of Spirit in a Waste of Shame - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: An Expense of Spirit in a Waste of Shame - [info]hiragani - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Good riddance
[info]nled63 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:03 am (UTC)

I sincerely hope that this ID nonsense is finally behind us. Naturally, we must expect small-minded, power-dazed hypocrites like Jaqui Smith to cling to such fantasms, and as for Brown - well, we are long past a point where we could expect anything like reason to govern his pronouncements, but all in all, this is an encouraging sign. The wood's not out the fire yet, of course.
But do ID cards work? - No, they do not!
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 04:25 am (UTC)
Other countries that do have ID cards do not have lower levels of crime, benefit abuse or greater security.

The Netherlands does not have an ID card system and yet does not suffer greater crime, more benefit abuse or be subject to higher levels of terrorism.

The value of introducing an ID card system to the UK has never been properly analysed or even discussed in any meaningful fashion. Why introduce an expensive complicated scheme that will erode civil liberties and human rights when the case for it has never been argued properly, let alone approved or accepted by the public.
Re: But do ID cards work? - No, they do not!
[info]steve_wilds wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:05 am (UTC)
"The Netherlands does not have an ID card system and yet does not suffer greater crime, more benefit abuse or be subject to higher levels of terrorism."

Indeed. The Netherlands has a much more mature approach to just about every issue that Britain fails on and continues to fail on by having successive governments who believe that can shape society into something that fits their ideological fantasies.
SCRAP ID CARDS:
[info]bgarvie wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 05:20 am (UTC)
ID cards will never guarantee security. Tragically they did not prevent the terrible bombing in Madrid. The Spanish have had the ID card system for decades. They are another expensive, non-effective layer of bureaucracy and should be scrapped.
[info]jeanshaw wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 05:27 am (UTC)
ID cards have to go they are a disgraceful infringement on personal liberty and serve no useful purpose.
(no subject) - [info] - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 06:40 am (UTC)
Re: Thank you George Orwell
[info]minderuk wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC)
"Great Britain has always been known for its liberty and democratic principles" A very long cough from me though. We have the greatest number of CCTV cameras in the world and laws where one can be locked up for 4 weeks without charge, just on suspicion. The word "liberty" can only be written in history books.
Re: Thank you George Orwell - [info]dogsolitude_v2 - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Never mind easing public spending...
[info]steve_wilds wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:10 am (UTC)
ID cards should be abandoned because they'll achieve none of the things that the government claim they will, but will nudge us one step closer to a potential totalitarian state in the future.

Would an ID card have prevented Jacqui Smith from taking the piss with her expenses claims?
Trident Two
[info]bridgey57 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:19 am (UTC)
Isn't it madness to make nuclear submarines to keep people in jobs?

Wouln't it be cheaper to retrain every single one of those workers,and invest in industries and jobs for them that have long term future potential,rather than wasting money we don't have shoring up jobs that are already pointless.
ID cards
[info]pilcher19 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:20 am (UTC)
What appalls me is that these cards, the proposed internet monitoring, and the pervasive CCTV on every corner could even be permitted by the British public in the first place!

What wimps the Brits have become; just a shadow of the independent and freedom/privacy-loving individuals of my youth. Very sad. My generation was the last to experience real freedom - hardfought for in two world wars. If the dead of those wars (including my relatives) were to return it would be with the realization their efforts were wasted.
For those who will blather on about terrorism, crime, blah blah blah, I say poppycock. Since when has crime prevention, perpetrators being a small proportion of the population, become cause to curtail the daily routine of the vast majority?

We were told that terrorists are out to 'destroy our freedoms' (Bush-ism); well, fellow-Brits, they have done just that. Democracy is dead, in the UK and elsewhere.
Personally, have given up on visiting 'home' as I refuse to submit to the degrading conditions imposed by airport security on perfectly law-abiding travellers. Please refrain from wailing about it all being for my safety; am quite capable of judging that for myself.
Re: ID cards
[info]linchung wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:25 am (UTC)
I hear that! But as one living in this scuppered isle, I have tried by my limited means to inform people I know of the risks to their liberty, and the overriding response has been "but what can we do?"

It's *not* that the British public is unwilling to change these issues, but that they mostly have learned to feel un-empowered, helpless in the face of their lack of true representation, by bureacratic obfuscation and graft, with limited and or unavailable means to be heard ("consultation", anyone?), and more and more frightened by government scaremongering and the police and state abuses of power.

This in my view is like the Germany of the late thirties, and it is time that the people of Britain - and England in particular - acknowledged that they must use whatever means they have to make those in power regain respect of the public and by the public, because if you want a society that believes in itself, you must treat it with respect, not threaten, dis-empower, vilify and gag it.

It's not too late! We just have to become righteously angrier. I'm heartened by the comments here.
The cost should be further down the list of why it should be scrapped!
[info]markmywords1 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:30 am (UTC)
It's nothing to do with tackling terrorism (the London bombers would have all qualified for an i.d. card!); organised crime (more value will be put on forging one piece of i.d.); illegal immigration (if it's 'illegal' now, how will a legal imposed system reduce it?); Identity fraud (the biggest risk will be having all this information on one database, not people stealing the card!)

A load of rubbish from beginning to end, but the apethetic British public would have swallowed it - I'd be ashamed if the only reason it was scrapped was because of economic reasons and not social ones!!
[info]ajwimble wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:38 am (UTC)
I have never believed that identity cards would be effective at combatting serious crime. They may catch a few petty criminals and illegal imigrants, but I am sure serious criminals and terrorists will be able to find ways round the system. If anything encouraging a total reliance on one form of ID could make us more vulnerable to any groups that find a way to produce fake IDs.

As such I see ID cards as a waste of money, as well as an assault on our civil liberties. It seems to me that a very expensive scheme uncertain benifits has to be sacrificed before cuts are made to thing sthat are known to be benificial such as health and education
Silver lining
[info]exogamist wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 07:38 am (UTC)
Delighted to see the recession saving us from Jacqui Boot's Stasi state. I had resigned myself to foregoing the right to travel abroad when my passport came up for renewal - like some Soviet dissident in the Cold War - so this is welcome news. Funny, too, that the 'Senior Cabinet Minister' quoted admits the scheme is 'unpopular', if it hadn't been for the recession they would have gone ahead despite knowing we didn't want it. Worrying.
Re: Silver lining
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 02:52 pm (UTC)
me too
EU plans for database registration of all citizens
[info]old_green wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
And let's not forget that ID cards themselves are related to EU plans for database registration of all citizens and universal biometric ID cards, with RFID
It would be interesting to see whether or not the EU would allow Britain to opt-out of ID cards - it looks unlikely

This goes much further than just ID cards themselves - the EU has a broader agenda to interfere with your privacy.
A new five year plan for justice and home affairs that emphasises the surveillance state and keeping digital records of all citizens' activities
http://www.statewatch.org/analyses/the-shape-of-things-to-come.pdf

Plans to fingerprint all children, compulsorily over the age of 12
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jul/30/politics.humanrights

An EU initiative to continuously track the speed and position of vehicles, about to go on trial in the UK
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/31/surveillance-transport-communication-box

Introducing databases tracking political activists even before 9/11.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/10/privacy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/may/30/immigration.footballviolence


Let's not forget, the retention of all phone calls and emails - so-called 'data retention' was brought in under EU directive (2006/24/EC)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/feb/11/eu-liberty-central
(incidentally, approved by the European Parliament)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2002/jun/06/onlinesupplement.privacy
This policy was brought in not under anti-terrorism but under economic policy (the so-called 'first pillar' of EU law).


Write to your MEP
This is the euro-election campaign - the election is on 4 June
Follow the steps on this website - it will tell you how to contact them
UK Office of the European Parliament
http://www.europarl.org.uk/section/your-meps/your-meps
Unlike the British Parliament, each Euro-constituency in Britain has three MEPs, not just one. We each have three different MEPs representing us, perhaps from three different parties.
Re: EU plans for database registration of all citizens
[info]linchung wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:33 am (UTC)
Thank you, old_green! That's the useful kind of stuff I'm looking for!

We should all have such availability - especially in the press - to democratic process! Perhaps the Indie would be so wise and kind to set up a page that enables people to make their voices heard and to be able to lobby politicians etc? It is still legal, after all! And I'm sure many people need to know what avenues they can use to do this!
ID Cards
[info]desmond8819 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:22 am (UTC)
Saving 5 billion pounds, you really mean 15 billion pounds given the record of overruns on these type of projects. I have been living in Spain for nearly 30 years and mi ID card has been seen by numerous hotel receptionists ,supermarket cashiers but never a policeman. A driver license with a photo is just as good a substitute when paying with a credit card. So either let the credit card companies pay for the project, as they are really who would benefit from it or buy an off the shelf version from the Spanish or French. Either way would be cheaper.
about time too!
[info]garydumbill wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:26 am (UTC)
check out this video for a bit more info-
http://www.vimeo.com/4165434
Inevitable
[info]drahcir38 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:30 am (UTC)
Look, it never really mattered whether the public liked or disliked the idea of ID cards. As long as the government could get a majority in the House to agree it that was all that mattered. However the one thing which has guaranteed that this government will indeed scrap the idea is not because it might save billions of pounds but because the Tories have siezed on the subject "we will rescind this measure if we get voted in". By not going ahead with it the government have very cleverly taken the wind out of Camerons sails. Who said Gordon was a moron?
The point of Trident is....?
[info]salford_roy wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 08:44 am (UTC)
Just what is the point?

Britain is more than capable of retaining a nuclear deterrent, just not in the hands of the Royal Navy. The RAF could easily be retasked with air-launched cruise missiles and less costly boats built instead to keep the shipyards open.

ID cards are a joke and not even worth discussing. A mere frivolity in these straitened times. However the Trident subs are vastly overpriced and need to be cancelled in favour of more conventional shipbuilding that is actually value for money.
Re: The point of Trident is....?
[info]fantazamaraz wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:22 am (UTC)

I will go further with this...who the hell is going to attack us anyway that wouldn't have done so by now.!
We don't need nuclear weaponry because we are small Island and if any REAL military power like russia or china eg. wanted to eliminate us it wouldn't take much effort.!
Re: The point of Trident is....? - [info]palmersperry - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:15 am (UTC) Expand
Re: The point of Trident is....? - [info]fantazamaraz - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:53 pm (UTC) Expand
ID Cards
[info]poppyjam1 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 09:13 am (UTC)
It is time this snoopy, paranoid government dropped the ID card scheme. It would do nothing to reduce the terrorist threat but give the government yet another way of prying into our private lives. It is also time Brown went and took Ms Smith with him. I have always been a supporter of the Labour party but will never vote for them again - there is little or no democracy left in Britain thanks to the government's inability to listen to anyone including the people employed to advise them. They have forgotten who put them in power and who pays their wages and inflated expenses claims. Yes, Mr. Brown, we who are out here struggling through the present economic difficulties, still have to pay your wages and I don't think you and the other members of your cabinet are worth it!!!
The ID card will stay
[info]kineticfactory wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 10:13 am (UTC)
The ID card is sacrosanct. New Labour could, in a pinch, scrap the high-speed rail link from Heathrow to the north, or cut education funding, or gut the NHS, but even if Britain becomes a banana republic, ID cards will stay. As will Trident (i.e., the part of the US nuclear arsenal which Britain pays for and hosts; did you know that the US, not the UK, controls the launching of Trident?). Perhaps it's not such a bad thing that they'll be reduced to a rump in parliament come next election? (As much as the Tories make me uncomfortable, I think Labour have thoroughly worn out their "we're the lesser evil, so vote for us or Zombie Margaret Thatcher gets in.)
Re: The ID card will stay
[info]palmersperry wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:18 am (UTC)
... and precisely *how* does the UK control the operation of the UK's Trident submarines? Do you think someone in the Pentagon presses a button, and the submarine rises to launch depth and starts shooting with the crew somehow unable to intervene? Or is that the radios on the submarines operate in some manner which the UK has been to understand, thus forcing the UK to telephone the Pentagon and ask them to pass messages on?
Re: The ID card will stay - [info]kineticfactory - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:33 am (UTC) Expand
Never put faith in government rebels
[info]sublibellous wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC)
I spent most of the 80s hoping that one backbench rebellion or another would scupper Thatch's evil schemes, but they very rarely came to pass.

Having said that, I'd happily put faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if it could put a stop to identity cards, which would constitute a constant onslaught of false accusations of being a terrorist, an illegal immigrant, a gangster or a fraudster against everyone in the country.
ID CARDS
[info]mtvmalta wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:38 am (UTC)
For goodness sake, come into the twentieth century. The ID card is so convenient. Those concerned about civil liberties should instead be all out to imprison the politicians who lied to us to invade Iraq
I:D: Cards
[info]mcpenado wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 11:49 am (UTC)
I have lived in Spain as a Resident for many years. I have an I:D: Card. I do not have a problem with this as I feel Protected and Safe. The British public don't want I:D: cards because they think it's an infringement of their HUMAN RIGHTS. What HUMAN RIGHTS? The Criminals have a 100% more rights than the people who are Abused, Raped, Murdered, Robbed, Attacked in the street. At least the I:D: cards would help control the criminals and make Britain a saver place.
As for the COST, BRITAIN is the 3rd RICHEST country in the WORLD and has plently in the COFFERS to pay for without coming out of the people's pocket.
They should use some of the money they get from the Euorpean government that they don't spend on the country!!!!!!!!!! What are they keeping the money for?
There are NO POCKETS IN SHROUDS.
Re: I:D: Cards
[info]markmywords1 wrote:
Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 12:31 pm (UTC)
I think your missing the point - how would having an ID card make it less likely that you are raped, murdered, robbed etc. How does it make you feel protected and safe? Does the criminal have to show it to you before bashing you over the head?

Also carrying a bit of plastic IS NOT THE ISSUE !!! Carrying a form of ID - IS NOT THE ISSUE !!!!!!

Sorry to shout about this but the issue is what information is stored on that card and who has access to that information and for what purposes is it accessed. The government has a terrible record on information safety - by holding all of this information together (and god knows what else) we're being put more at risk not less.

The ID card scheme in Spain, or Germany etc. etc. is not the same scheme as is proposed here - look into it, you'd be surprised!! The UK Government plan to sell the info to make MONEY - that's why it'll probably go ahead. Insurance companies will love to get their hands on it to put up your premiums!!!

Tip of the iceburg - I could tell you more but don't be blinded. Get all the facts! Forget this - "If you've got nothing to hide" bullshit!! If you've got nothing to hide why do you close the door when you go to the toilet ??? It's about privacy!
Re: I:D: Cards - [info]uanime5 - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: I:D: Cards - [info]markmywords1 - Tuesday, 28 April 2009 at 01:47 pm (UTC) Expand
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