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Ivan the Terrible (or just plain John Demjanjuk?)

Efforts to hold the Ukrainian to account for the terror he allegedly inflicted in a Nazi concentration camp have been frustrated yet again. David Usborne reports

The ailing Demjanjuk is carried from his Ohio home by immigration agents, watched by his wife Vera and grand-daughter Olivia Nishnic

AP

The ailing Demjanjuk is carried from his Ohio home by immigration agents, watched by his wife Vera and grand-daughter Olivia Nishnic

He is stateless, bedridden and, so his family says, in constant pain. He also has the dubious distinction of having been labelled by the rest of the world – not once but twice – as one of the last living monsters of the Nazi concentration camps. But, for now, John Demjanjuk has reason to be grateful: he is not in Germany but at home in Cleveland, Ohio.

Voicing pity in any degree for the 89-year-old former car plant worker takes you into perilous waters. There is no one at the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Centre, the Jewish human rights group which leads the hunt for Nazi war criminals, who has the slightest doubt that he is guilty of genocide against Jews. Twenty years ago, he was identified by Israel as "Ivan the Terrible", the sadist of Treblinka, and tried and sentenced to hang. Famously, that conviction was overturned.

Now it is Germany's turn to pursue Ukrainian-born Mr Demjanjuk, who after the debacle of his Israeli conviction, was allowed to return to the US. Late last year, the German office responsible for charging Holocaust killers – or the guiltiest among them – declared itself ready to prosecute him on German soil on charges not related to Treblinka but to the labour camp at Sobibor in Nazi-occupied south-east Poland. At the heart of the case against him is the allegation that he helped to murder 29,000 people during the Second World War.

Few humans were ever as reviled as Mr Demjanjuk while he was on trial in Israel in 1988. Survivors of Treblinka recalled watching him slice the breasts off Jewish women and ordering a male inmate to rape a 12-year-old girl. When Israel's Supreme Court admitted to problems in his case in 1993 and let him go – without formally acquitting him – he may or may or not have expected to live out the rest of his life unbothered by the past. But if he did, he was mistaken.

The grim chronicles of Mr Demjanjuk, who originally fled to the US during the confusion of the post-war years, resumed in early 2002 when a US judge revoked his American citizenship for a second time. In 2005, another judge ruled that he could be extradited to face trial in Germany, Poland or even Ukraine. After the Central Office for the Investigation of Nazi Crimes, based in Ludwigsburg, near Stuttgart, said last October that it was ready to go to trial with new charges against him, an official request was made by prosecutors in Munich to have him extradited from America.

That the US would comply never seemed in doubt. While Mr Demjanjuk's large and loyal family worked hard to persuade the courts that he was too frail to be deported and that the journey to Munich would constitute torture – because he suffers from a variety of ailments including kidney disease, anaemia and a bone marrow disorder – US officials were disinclined to listen. On Tuesday, they finally came to get him.

There may have been some family theatre involved, but the scenes outside Mr Demjanjuk's home in Seven Hills, just outside Cleveland, did not inspire confidence that he would make it to Germany alive, let alone to the end of what is sure to be a lengthy trial in Munich.

Television cameras whirred as sweating immigration marshals heaved the still-hulking man through his front door in a wheelchair to whisk him away in a white van, first to a federal building downtown and in the evening – or so they thought – to a plane bound for Germany.

As his white-haired wife, Vera, sobbed into the shoulder of a granddaughter on the front lawn, Mr Demjanjuk looked corpse-like in the hoisted wheel chair, his jaw dropped wide open in shock or pain or both. Two priests were inside the house when the old man was removed from his bed, reportedly mouthing just three words to relatives at his side: "I love you".

Among the family members present was his grand-daughter Olivia Nishnic, 20, for whom the Second World War and the concentration camps are nothing more than pages in history books. "It was horrendous," she said of his removal. "He was in such pain. I wouldn't want to see anyone go through something like that."

But if America was happy to be getting rid of him one more time, it was to be disappointed. At the 11th hour on Tuesday, a federal appeals court finally responded to his family's pleadings about his health and issued a stay on Mr Demjanjuk's deportation. Before sundown, he was once again in the care of his loved ones and on his way back in a Ford pick-up to his home, where he remained yesterday.

Among those celebrating was his former son-in-law and the family spokesman, Ed Nishnic. "We are delighted," he said. "It is just a shame that Mr Demjanjuk had to go through the hell that he went through once again this morning."

The US Immigration Service said that although Mr Demjanjuk was allowed to return home, his movements would be monitored electronically, in case he tried to flee. Officials at the Justice Department promised to fight to complete his deportation to Germany as promised.

Whether this is a reprieve that will last days or last indefinitely remains unclear. Mr Demjanjuk's lawyer in Germany said yesterday that his client had a kidney tumour, needed chemotherapy and was entirely unfit to travel. His son, John Junior, complained that he was misled by US government officials about the circumstances of the deportation. "He can't stand up and walk out of the house," he said. "We weren't anticipating anything like this. I was told that a family member could accompany him. We also were told that we would have three to five days' notice before anything happened."

For those anxious to see Mr Demjanjuk face justice, the delay, or worse, is intensely frustrating. "We remain confident that John Demjanjuk will be deported and finally face the bar of justice for the unspeakable crimes he committed during the Second World War," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, of the Wiesenthal Centre. "His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, women and children into the gas chamber. He had no mercy, no pity and no remorse for the families whose lives he was destroying forever." Mr Demjanjuk has always maintained that, far from being a guard, he was a prisoner of war at the hands of the Germans.

The delay will also test the patience of the Nazi Crimes Office in Ludswigsburg. "It is now possible to give the precise names and birth dates of the victims," Kurt Schrimm, the head of the unit, said last year when the case was first announced. He said the oldest of Mr Demjanjuk's victims was a 99-year-old Dutch Jew, while the youngest were babies born on the trains that transported Jews to concentration camps and their awaiting gas chambers. "This is a great chance for us to call Demjanjuk to book and make him face up to the responsibility for his crimes."

Assuming it ever gets under way, his trial in Munich promises also to be a seminal moment for Germany as a whole. The scenes in the Bavarian courtroom would be as gruelling and upsetting as anything depicted in recent Holocaust-inspired fiction, including the Oscar-winning film The Reader, but will be rooted in distant but nonetheless terrible reality. The last big show trial of a Nazi war criminal was in 1992, when SS officer Josef Schwammberger was jailed for life for murder and for being an accomplice to murder. He died in prison in 2004.

And, it could also turn out to be the last such trial, a final reckoning for all Germans for the things that happened under Hitler. There is no statute of limitations on trying those accused of genocide, but no one at risk of prosecution for actions taken during the Second World War can be less than 80 years old today.

That is not to say that Mr Demjanjuk is the last person that the Nazi Crimes Office in Ludwigsburg is pursuing. It reportedly has its sights on four other men who now live in the US after allegedly attempting to flee their pasts as concentration camp butchers. But those cases are mostly in their preliminary stages, which means that for now it is the Demjanjuk trial that Germany and much of the world is waiting for.

Some in Germany would rather it was not Mr Demjanjuk providing what may be the final dénouement to their ancestors' Nazi allegiances and the national repentance that followed it. He was not, after all, even a German national but one of a large cast of east Europeans – so-called Volksdeutsche – hired by their new German masters to carry out some of their worst, most unspeakable work.

Some argue that a German law passed in 1968 actually let scores of nationals off the hook who had murdered, but not too egregiously. The law said: "In the absence of personal characteristics, conditions or circumstances establishing the culpability of the offender, the offender's sentence shall be mitigated."

As Der Spiegel, the German magazine, reported this week, German courts have investigated more than 100,000 cases covering the war years, but only 6,500 of the accused were sentenced. Christiaan F Rüter, a criminal law professor in Amsterdam, told the magazine: "While senior government officials, officers and commanders enjoyed their retirements in peace. This old man is now expected to pay for everything."

He means John Demjanjuk, of course. However, it may be that old age, and the frailty that comes with it, ensures that his moment in the Munich courtroom never comes – and he pays for nothing.

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Get your facts right
[info]olexhryb wrote:
Wednesday, 15 April 2009 at 11:59 pm (UTC)
It is so telling that the newspaper that criticises BBC on its front page publishes such a biased and factually incorrect article on Demjanjuk! I would not be suprised if Usborne does not even know what impartiality means. Ivan the Terrible (Marchenko) was arrested by the NKVD and shot in Kiev in 1960's. That is why Demjanjuk was aquited of all charges in a clear case of mistaken identity in Israel. To put all the blame for what Ivan the Terrible did on Demjanjuk is a clear slander. Neither Demjanjuk was a Volksdetsche - the term reserved for ethnic Germans outside Nazi Germany. He was Soviet POW. It is up to the court to find out if Demjanjuk is guilty of anything and sentence him accordingly. Trial by media and incompetent journalists was a trademark of totalitarian states of the European past.

Olexander, London
John Demjanjuk
[info]ktoma4483 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 02:34 am (UTC)
I think it's terrible that they are ripping this frail old man from his home. I have been following this for the last 30 years and every few years it pops it's ulgy head up again. It seems to me that they are looking for a scapegoat. Has anyone ever thought that if he had to work as a guard, it may have been against his will and his beliefs ?
Leave the poor guy alone. He is sick, and dying. Right now the only one who should be allowed to pass judgement on him is God.
enough is enough
[info]khunkat wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 03:42 am (UTC)
Well put, Olexhryb. I thought that our legal system operated on the principle, "innocent until proven guilty". That has not been the case with Mr. Demjanjuk. In the summer of 1977 the Cleveland newspaper headlines made it sound like he was already tried and convicted. His family was receiving death threats. They basically said to Mr. D. "You are Ivan the Terrible. Prove you're not". That would be guilty until proven innocent. And he finally was proven innocent. While he was in Israel awaiting the death sentence lo and behold they found proof that he was NOT Ivan the terrible. So then the folks looking for a scapegoat said "Okay. So you're not Ivan the terrible but you're still Ivan the slightly less terrible than the Ivan the terrible we said you were. Prove you're not." Meanwhile, for 30 years he has had to watch his wife and children and grandchildren suffer from living in the shadow of this whole witch hunt. It's been hell for all of them. The kids entire adult lives and the grandchildren's entire lives have been overshadowed by this. It needs to be over. ktoma is right. He will soon stand before God, as we all will eventually.
This Old Man
[info]abechurchill wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 04:12 am (UTC)
Where is the evidence that this old man did anything? The Israeli Supreme Court has found that he is not Ivan Grozny. Neal Sher, one of the key prosecuting US attornies in Mr. Demjanajuk's first trial HAS BEEN DISBARRED by the US for his unfair conduct in the Demjanjuk trial. How shameful that the US has let itself become Pontius Pilate to this hounded man, moving spinelessly to do the bidding of the feared Israel lobby. This 21 year old Ukranian was frontline dogmeat to the Russians who drafted him, to the Nazis who captured him, and to the Israelis and Americans who extradited him. Only the Supreme Court of Israel is permitted to show him justice. Who is this rabbi from the Wiesenthal Center for Nazi Pursuit--Mr. Demjanjuk was never a Nazi, but a Nazi prisoner of war!! Even Pope Benedict was an unwilling Hitler Youth member--what choice did the now benevolent pope have? Has the Wiesenthal Center pursued a single Jewish collaborator?! Where is the Christian courage that forged our nations....
[info]rabotnitsa wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 05:26 am (UTC)
I feel for his children and grandchildren. How hard it must be for them to know for all the years that the person they love might actually be a monster. Imagine the doubt and mistrust.

My grandfather was 18 when he was drafted to Soviet Army in September 1942. He joined infantry and almost instantly found himself on the frontline. Wounded, few months in the hospital and back to the frontline to be in Kursk, in July 1943. How he survived we still wonder, he was a mess, almost shredded to pieces, he only about a year ago started telling us about war. Before he used to say "There's nothing heroic, it's hard job, but we were doing it for our families". Referring to "the Ukranian who was drafted by Russians", well, it was our War, we were Soviets and we were "doing it for our families". So some respect would do.

Thank you.
Demjanjuk
[info]sherlock12329 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 05:54 pm (UTC)
Israelis commit war crimes on a daily basis against Palestinians, in many ways similar to what the Jews experienced in WWII. It is so hypocritical to read this response by an Israeli reporter who insists that Demjanjuk has to pay for his crimes, even when he is so frail and near death. Perhaps Israeli reporters should be reporting more on the war crimes of Israeli political leaders, and how to get Israeli leaders to the International Court of Justice. Enough of the hypocrisy and double standards!
What about his victims at Sobibor?
[info]liz770 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 07:09 am (UTC)
Get your facts straight.

I covered the Demjanjuk trial for six years as a reporter in Israel. There was not a doubt in the opinion of the Israeli court that he had murdered people at Sobibor; he was let go because legally he had been tried as having been at Treblinka and there was doubt cast about that. His SS identity card clearly places him at Sobibor, a "sister" (if this metaphor can be used in such an odious context) camp to Treblinka.

You have such pity for an old, infirm man, but the Nazi guards and their helpers at Sobibor had no such compassion for the old men and women they drove into the gas chambers to die.
Re: What about his victims at Sobibor?
[info]gerard1904 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 08:45 am (UTC)
Yes. That is exactly the point. "You have such pity for an old, infirm man, but the Nazi guards and their helpers at Sobibor had no such compassion for the old men and women they drove into the gas chambers to die." We are not Nazi guards; we have compassion and pity.
Re: What about his victims at Sobibor?
[info]philip_r wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 08:52 am (UTC)
Exactly, the man is going to trial. He is not having his breast sliced off or being pushed into a gas chamber. Guilty or innocent he should have faced his accusers from the beginning. He did not do that. Are you idiots saying that simply putting him on trial is the equivalent of Nazi crimes against humanity? Oh! I see, you are saying that. I have no sympathy. And another stupid thing: pointing out the crimes of Israel? How does that absolve this individual for the crimes he is accused of?
He may be innocent
[info]gerard1904 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 08:42 am (UTC)
This case is politically motivated to distract from the horror being inflicted on the Palistinians. When will "Moshe the Terrible" be held to account?

Consider that Demjanuk may be telling the truth. After all he stood trial in Israel and was not convicted. If he goes to trial and is found to be innocent what will you, who have aleady condemed him, think of yourselves. You have the same mind set as the killers you say you after! Shame on all of you.
Too late...
[info]matinyoupi wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 09:01 am (UTC)
What a circus... Why now?
They should have done the job 64 years ago. It would have saved his family's distress today...

It's disgusting to see that such people are granted the American citizenship in the first place, while other common "white doves" like us would have to struggle for years.
Never mind
[info]had_it wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 10:19 am (UTC)
Guilty or not, killing this man will give some people cathartic revenge, which is what this is really about. Certainly, no intelligent person could argue that prosecution or presecution of an 89-year-old will result in his rehabilitation or deter anyone else from similar actions.
Demjanjuk
[info]honebone wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 12:58 pm (UTC)
I have followed this case for 30+ years. He has suffered torture enough for the 8 years he was tried, sentenced to hang, and then found not guilty in Israel. There was no evidence in 1988 that he was Ivan the terrible and they have no new evidence to convict him now. He is 89 years old and is being scapegoated by these Nazi witch hunters. Does anyone really think a 23 year old Soviet POW would even have the authority to do what he is being charged? Nazi hunting is a big business for the likes of the Simon Weisenthal center and they are playing it for all its worth at the expense of this man.
If it is Proven beyond doubt
[info]xyberia44 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 01:32 pm (UTC)
that he is the Guard, then who cares if he is crying and shouting about his deportation, I am sure his victims did the same when they where taken, Karma is always there. No escaping that.........

One wonders ...
[info]cyn_amman wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 02:01 pm (UTC)
Sixty years from now, will similar scenes be reenacted in Tel Aviv as elderly Israeli soldiers are hauled away to account for their war crimes in Palestine? I doubt it!
John Demjanjuk can never get a fair trial in Germany.
[info]fernandolito wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)
Rabbi Marvin Hier, of the Wiesenthal Centre. "His work at the Sobibor death camp was to push men, women and children into the gas chamber."

Say the defense in Germany asks for proof of the existence of a gas chamber for killing people in Treblinka or Sobibor..

The solicitor would immediately be jailed, and be subject to up to five years in jail just for asking for proof of the existence of the crime scene / murder weapon.

You think it's far fetched to ask such questions?

Read 'Debating the Holocaust', by Thomas Dalton.

It lists revisionist arguments and claims side by side with what so called 'official historians' say.

You may be up for a big surprise and get a picture which is a whole lot closer to the real world than what you hear when you listen to the popular propaganda in the press.
impartial examination
[info]kurtbech wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 03:20 pm (UTC)
All this speculation about Demjanjuk is based on the assumption that there was a gas chamber at Sobibor and that assumption is based on conflicting eye-witness testimony. Since so much effort is being expended in this prosecution, let?s have an impartial examination of the forensic evidence for ?gassings?. A similar examination of Auschwitz raised genuine doubts about the ?gas chambers? there.

Enough is enough
[info]lasvegasrich wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 03:46 pm (UTC)
The man is 89, in constant pain according to his family, what will transporting him from a deathbed in the USA, to a deathbed in Germany prove. If the Israelis couldn't find this man guilty, what will further trials prove. If he is really guilty of Holocaust crimes, he will be punished in the next life.
THE NATURE OF THE WOLF
[info]brazil2009 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 06:22 pm (UTC)
IF THERE IS SOLID PROOF THAT THIS MAN IS THE PERSON THEY SAY HE IS, I THINK IT IS VERY SAD ALL THE ANGUISH HIS FAMILY IS HAVING TO GO THROUGH. IT IS SAD BUT NOT REGRETTABLE, BECAUSE THIS IS CLOSE TO NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT WENT ON BEFORE THE GAS CHAMBERS. THE THOUGHT OF WHAT WENT ON AND ALL THE IMAGES OF INNOCENT PEOPLE MURDERED BY CRUEL, NASTY MONSTERS, MAKES ME PHYSICALLY UNWELL. SIMON WIESENTHAL CENTRE IS A REPUTABLE INSTITUTION AND ITS FOUNDER, SIMON WIESENTHAL, IS ONE OF MY DEARES HEROES. SOMEONE I LOOK UP TO. SAID THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE EVIDENCE BEING PUBLISHED.
IF THERE IS NO SOLID EVIDENCE I FIND IT DEEPLY UPSETTING THAT A MAN WHOSE CONVICTION WAS OVERTURNED IN ISRAEL HAS TO GO THROUGH THIS WHOLE AFFAIR AD NAUSEAM.
I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SEE WAR CRIMINALS AND TERRORISTS THAT WERE COMMITTED TO ISRAELI POLITICS GET THEIR DUE AS WELL. I WOULD LIKE THEM TO FACE THEIR CRIMES AND THEIR VICTIMS. I AM NOT GOING TO LIST THEIR NAMES, BUT THERE IS A WHOLE CRIMINAL GANG ON THE LOOSE. THE PHOTOGRAPH I SAW ON THIS ARTICLE, OF A FRAIL OLD MAN BEING CARRIED AWAY AS SUSPECT OF MASS MURDER DID GIVE ME HOPE THAT NOT EVEN THOSE ONES THAT ARE IN A PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE, LIKE Mr ARIEL SHARON, MIGHT ONE DAY STAND TRIAL AT AN INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THESE NASTY AND HORRIBLE PEOPLE DESERVE. I MAKE RABBI MARVIN HEIR' WORDS, WIESENTHAL CENTER FOUNDER AND DEAN, MY OWN, WHEN HE ADDRESSED THE DEMJANJUK AFFAIR: "His defenders say that at 89, he is too old to be deported. His 29,000 victims would have only wished that they would have been so fortunate to reach the age of 89. John Demjanjuk deserves to be punished for the unspeakable crimes he committed, ".THE RABBI IS DEAD RIGHT THERE AND THE SAME KIND OF JUSTICE HAS TO WORK FOR MANY OTHER MASS MURDERERS AND WAR CRIMINALS, AS WELL. I ACCEPT NOTHING LESS OR JUSTICE IS JUST AN EMPTY VACUOUS WORD. A MOCKING JUSTICE. A JUSTICE USEFUL FOR POLITICAL GAIN. NOTHING MORE THAN THAT.
[info]reality1968 wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 06:26 pm (UTC)
AS Shakespeare 's Portia said ,' The quality of mercy is not strained it droppeth as the gentle rain blessing those that give and those that receive'. Perhaps Spielberg and other wealthy donors to the Simon Wiesenthal centre would take notice of this because most observers are disgusted by this vindictive vile behaviour of the US authorities goaded by the Wiesenthal centre.
IVAN The Terrible?
[info]brainpinky wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 10:15 pm (UTC)
Demjanjuk is no longer accused of being Ivan The Terrible. The guard known as Ivan did his brutal work at the Treblinka Concentration Camp. In his trial in Israel, which ultimately cleared him of being Ivan, conclusive evidence showed that Demjanjuk was a guard at the Sobibor Concentration Camp. Based on the testimonies of most of the prisoners who survived Sobibor, Demjanjuk was a minor player in the grotesque operations of the camp.

While his role as a guard at this death camp has been proven to be minor, he still played a role. Because of this, he should be deported and face trial. Given the sentences imposed on most of the Nazi guards at Sobibor as well as the few Ukrainians who have been tried, he might spend a couple of years in jail, but not much longer.

The majority of the crimes against humanity at this camp were committed by the Nazi guards and the Kapos in the camp. The Ukrainian guards were often little more than hired guns standing guard on the perimeter of the camp.
Oy
[info]jromanovnew wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 10:32 pm (UTC)
It's not surprising to see the sadists at the Weaselthal Center Using Napoleonic Justice -- Mr. D. is guilty until proven innocent!!!

Say, which camp WAS it that Mr. D. worked at? Was it Sobibor, or Treblinka, or...? All those Camps sound the same after 65 years...

God save us all from the likes of Mr. D's persecutors.

So-Called Ivan TheTerrible
[info]delreo wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 06:36 am (UTC)
According to Pulititzer Prize winning author John Toland (HITLER 1976) Ivan The Terrible was killed by Jews in a camp uprising. But that story wont do in todays organized lynchings by professional Jewish Holacaust promoters.Why werant Allied War criminals pursued?Winston Churchills crimes throughout his career are glorified.FDRS illegalities.Than theres Lenin,Stalin,Mao.Why not the bombedier on the Enola Gay which vaporized Hiroshima?Its OK for him to be 'just following orders'. Than theres Bush/Cheny,/BlairWhy are.arent Isreali actions in Gaza?No its a dying old man,A humble workingman,who as a young man was caught up it a terrible,and vast world war.The actions against him Mr.D,display a truly eternal hate of the kind crucifixions are made of.
Alledged Ivan.
[info]delreo wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC)
Accordingto Pulitzer Prize winning author John Toland,;Ivan was killed in a prisoner uprising(HTLER 76).But this testimony,and Mr.D's aquittal by the Isreali Supreme Court,after a show trial ,wont do for the professional Holacaust promoters!Why werent Allied war criminals prosecuted?The vast atrocities ordered by Winston Chuchill are covered as glorious.FDRS machiations always nescessary,Stalns brushed aside.Down the command chain-:Why wasnt the crew of the Enola Gay which vaporizd Hiroshima arrested?The German mantra of only following orders is rediculed(They were! Like all militaries do).Than theres Bush/Cheny/Blair.The Isreali actions in Gaza?But Mr D is the target.A humble young man in the vast horror of WW2.A dying old man now.The travesty of purseueing this case,displays the vicious nature o his accusers.nd it is backfiring!
To those who spew their odious talk about Israelis
[info]liz770 wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC)
What is wrong with you? Have all your brains fallen out? Have you not been listening for the last XXXX years while Hamas has been screaming non-stop for the murder of all the Jews?

Have you never watched a video about the constant Hamas rocket-firing on Sderot, against little children, women, men? Take a look at this, before Israel opened the "Cast Lead" operation to bring a little relief:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCHbihJImGo&feature=related

Have you forgotten the almost two thousand Israelis murdered in cold blood my Arab terrorists since 2000?

Your selective, disgusting anti-semitism, no matter how you wrap it up in your odious politics, remains just that -- disgusting, odious anti-semitism.

No wonder you are defending a henious murderer like Demjanjuk.

Who cares about his "age"? Did he care when he butchered and gassed his victims?

Get some balance and get a life.
Demjanjuk
[info]lynjohn wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 12:34 pm (UTC)
I would like to bring up some pertinent facts omitted from David Usborne's sensationalised, boiler plate article on John Demjanjuk, April 16, 2009.

He was convicted by the Israeli court which conveniently accepted questionable and contradictory testimony to the effect that he was Ivan the Terrible. One of the so-called eye witnesses had some years earlier written a book that he had killed Ivan the Terrible with a shovel in a camp uprising. He nonetheless testified, under oath, at the trial in Israel that John Demjanjuk was the alleged Ivan the Terrible who gassed victims with diesel fumes (not lethal internal combustion fumes). It was only after evidence presented as a result of extensive research by Jerome Brentar that the Israeli Supreme Court trying to salvage a semblance of integrity could no longer maintain the fiction and overturned the conviction.

Having failed to get him as "Ivan the Terrible", the vengeful zealots went after him again alleging he was a guard at another camp. What's to prevent these zealots from finding more so-called eye witnesses? It's widely accepted that unless corroborated with hard evidence the credibility of eye witness testimony diminishes as time passes and is completely irrelevant after a few years. Add to that, ageing "witnesses" with their inevitable failing memory have been influenced over the years with a barrage of sensationalised material much of it pure fiction. With this and the skewed German law preventing the defence, on pain of conviction, from presenting evidence that would challenge allegations of murder how could he receive a fair trial?

Re: Demjanjuk
[info]liz770 wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 01:37 pm (UTC)
What Mr. Lynjohn conveniently ignores is the fact that the Israeli court DID say during the trial that Demjanjuk had been at Sobibor as well; this was not something they dreampt up later. In addition, when the eyewitness was asked how it could have been Demjanjuk who he killed, if he later identified him, he replied that when he said he had killed him, it was wishful thinking. Whether or not one accepts that explanation, it is certainly plausible, and it is cynical in the extreme to attach ulterior motives to eye witnesses who had seen the horrors committed in the death camps. Mr. Lynjohn also makes wild sweeping statements about "much of it pure fiction", "skewed German law" -- he is clearly grasping at straws.

Get your facts straight. You omit just enough to make it sound as if you know what you're talking about, which you don't.

Essentially, had the governments of the world done their job correctly, Nazi criminals would have been brought to justice decades ago. Perhaps had they been more vigilant then, we would have the overwhelming, ever growing number of rabidly hateful Moslem terrorists and wanna-be terrorists roaming every single civilized country, as they are today.
Re: Demjanjuk
[info]olekandra wrote:
Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 01:50 am (UTC)
Where are the arrests and trials for those who were killed in the former Soviet Union and other countries taken over by the communists in the 1930s. Millions of people have been tortured and killed and genocides have occurred in many countries. Why don't ALL people have justice? There are too many "witch hunts" and not enough truth based, fact finding, trials for ALL people. Oh, well, it will all be handled in the next life. "Woe to you who give scandal it would be better that a milestone be hung around your neck and you be thrown into the sea. ...
what is there to argue?
[info]ssirballer11 wrote:
Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 04:06 am (UTC)
how can you fools stick up for a monster like that. its dumb-asses like you guys that let this get off scott-free. who gives a fuck about his family, they went through nothing. how can those people even still speak to him and respect him after what he has been proven to be: a terrible terrible murderer.

YOU GUYS SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES! THINKING OF HIS ONE FAMILY AND NOT THE THOUSANDS HE KILLED. I HOPE YOU ALL ROT IN HELL WITH HIM!

My grandparents were in concentration camps, and to hear you talk like this guy has suffered enough makes me BARF.

------Sam, Los Angeles EMAIL ME IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY: edmantel@aol.com
Old or not....Demjanjuk killed innocent men, women and children. Time to pay for your sins.
[info]honestopinion09 wrote:
Monday, 11 May 2009 at 08:14 pm (UTC)
I am an American citizen. I live in a country that is home to many different walks of life. What I am not proud of is that there are people living in this country who are responsible for the inhumane killing of THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN. Shall we sacrifice honor and truth to hide those responsible? Because they are old and frail shall we not punish them; but instead show pity? Was any shown to those elderly in the camps at Sobibor where 29,000 were sent to death by Demjanjuk? Justice is not blind. Justice seeks truth. Whether you are eight, or eighty, we all need to be accountable. Honor the past, prevent the genocide from ever happening again. We should as Americans and humanitarians bring this poor excuse for a human to justice.
This stuff
[info]1world1people wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 01:33 am (UTC)
It's good to see the era of the Nazis is finally going to be gone soon. Let us move past the hate for crying out loud! Nazis are horrible, and all other who pass judgement and fight. As long as i live i will not join armed forces. Imagine if everyone took this pledge, there would be no one to fight... at least not on our planet. (the planet we live on, not ours, we just sorta ended up on it by chance/god/science to please all around the world. :)
Re: This stuff
[info]tim_buk_t wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 11:43 pm (UTC)
End of the Nazi era !? The Neo-Nazi in Europe are alive and kicking hard. No I don't imagine them being driven back into the sewers by pure reason. I'll take what Hitler himself said "If the adversary had understood our movement, and would have smashed the nucleus of our movement with the utmost brutality, our movement would have never been victorious". You have been warned. NO PASARAN.
Let the old man die painfully on his own...
[info]kippaalharosh wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 03:35 am (UTC)
This story is like spanking a puppy 5 years after it peed on the carpet. The memories are so fuzzy no one has any idea what they remember and what they have forgotten. I can't remeber what I ate 4 days ago for dinner, and having a M.S in Psychology, I can definitely say the human brain is not capable of facial recognition for brief "supposed" encounters, through research, we also know that dwelling on facts assumed to be true distorts actual events. The event may have been making sure the jews were properly stationed for extermination, but after watching 50 years Holocaust porn and Schindler's List, that simple event is translated as brutal because people are assuming what they have seen on the screen is the actual event and transpose that image onto this old man. I'm a Jew. I have left my religion. I do not condone this man's actions. However, logically and legally, he was cleared of all crimes. in America we can not be tried for the same crime twice. This man has been facing trial for this SAME crime for years and years. It's injust, andyone who says otherwise, well, is very uneducated.
Was he or wasn't he?
[info]sonofdave wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 05:10 am (UTC)
My understanding of what took place in Isreal was that our alledged Ivan managed to get his conviction overturned. This is not an acquittal This does not mean he was found not guilty. It does not mean he cannot be charged again. It means the conviction was discharged. So, some of you will need something new to cry about. Personally, I would have bounced him back to the fatherland in a small boat. Call it a sea trial. If he makes it alive he gets to go home (In the same boat.)
I'm wondering?
[info]docbb63 wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 05:36 pm (UTC)
I am wondering at 80 years of age if found guilty of his crimes what would his sentence be? What are Germany's laws if convicted? Of course in court he will deny everything and that he did nothing but the knowledge he holds on the exact accounts of what happened during those years would be priceless for history if he could be honest about what happened matching his accounts with those of his surviving victims. It is a fact that he himself has said has "Admitted openly" he was a Nazi guard in Sobibor and was forced to do the things he did. So would it matter if he was 41 and in good health when accused or 81 and in bad health the fact is he committed crimes against humanity, weather it is one person or 29,000 Murder is Murder. Stop focusing on he is a ill, frail old man. Witness from the age of 75 years and up remember him just as if it were yesterday this is not the O.J. Simpson trial - this is a fact of history and it needs to be resolved. No one except the victims and survivors know the pain and anguish these people have had to live with all their lives so please stop with the This old man, This frail and old man. We had no problem convicting Charles Manson and he never touched any of his victims yet was sentenced to life. Fact - This man Demijanjuk physically pushed Men, Women and Children into the gas chambers. If you were standing next to your friend in a store and he pulled out a gun and shot the cashier, even tho you didn't pull the trigger and knew nothing about it, you would be charged as an accomplice. So you do the math on his "ADMITTED" accounts during WWII.

Doc - California
John (Ivav) Demjanjuk Trial Germany 2009
[info]tim_buk_t wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 08:02 pm (UTC)
If Demjemjuk dies before a conclusion of his trial, he will then join the very long list of murders who have escaped justice. Both from the WW11 genocide, post that war and up to the presant day. The terrible Irony is that many of these WW11 war criminals were shielded from justice by the very powers that defeated Nazism militarily. They were protected and used for political expedience, by people who talked about democracy, the free world, etc. Hence Klaus Barbie who became an acute embarrassment to the CIA. Barbie faced justice in the end after having many years of freedom and practising his old 'profession' for his new political masters. I hope Demjanjuk also is put behind the bars of justice after all his years of freedom, some of which were spent as a auto-worker fiddling with diesel engines in the USA. Demjanjuk was certainly very proficient at keeping the captured Russian tank diesel engine running smoothly in Treblinka death camp ! If he does finally escape the conclusion of justice, it will be nothing new, it will only go to show you can get away with murder and mass murder at that in this world.
Let this evil man rot
[info]notsympathetic wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 09:01 pm (UTC)
They have detailed documents that tie this man to the camps. He committed horrendous crimes and should be put on trial to finally face his crimes. People are writing in commenting that this is a poor old man who she be left in peace until his dying days, well what about the children mothers, father, grandparents and aunties, uncles and babies who were not given that same privledge. This evil man should rot and have the last years of his life a living hell. Althought that would be letting him of easily for the crimes he committed in Sobibor.
Is persecution the right thing to do?
[info]thinklife09 wrote:
Tuesday, 12 May 2009 at 10:16 pm (UTC)
Where is God in all this? Why is it that what so many of us seem to take so lightly is the fact that there is only one who we all must account for everything we did in life, when he comes. Yes murder is murder, and all sins are equal - not one is greater than another. Even though we all seem to think there are varying levels of evil. Who wants to be the Pontius Pilate? Who are we to judge, as the Lord himself said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged". If you persecute, you will be persecuted. The end is coming - though we don't know when. It is the persecutors that also just might end up in hell...and nobody is dumb or an idiot.

So if a murderer is persecuted and sent to prison/death - how soon are your dear loved ones coming back? Yes, it is painful, and I feel greatly for all people. Do you honestly think putting a murderer down/away would actually give you lasting peace of mind about your loved ones or those who died? How soon after are you going to mourn again? There is no better or LASTING justice of judgement, apart from Gods'. As some of you say, "in our next life" - who will really be there, and who won't? None of us know the real answer to that - only what we assume.

No, I'm not a preacher. But throughout my life, I've had numerous out-of-body experiences, and I've been places where many can only dream of. The best thing any of us can do, is pray for everyone - forgiveness is the ONLY key to true happiness in life. We all have our choices to forgive or not...but for those who persecute and do not forgive - neither will God forgive you for your persecution.

We can never forget. Forgiveness helps to learn to go one with our lives in happiness instead of bitterness - which is bad for your soul.

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