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Afghanistan: What next?

How the West lost its way in the East

Kabul was taken in days, but then the 'liberation of Afghanistan' became a slow-motion disaster. Patrick Cockburn, who has reported on the conflict since 2001, charts the fatal mistakes

British soldiers patrol past a poppy field in Musa Qala, in Helmand province

Reuters

British soldiers patrol past a poppy field in Musa Qala, in Helmand province

After seven long years in which it seemed a sideshow to the bigger conflict in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan has reached a critical point. The US must now choose how far it will become further embroiled in a messy conflict which affects its relations with Pakistan, India and the wider Middle East including Iran. At a moment when the world is convulsed by the worst economic disaster since 1929, Washington will have to decide if it really wants to invest time, money, military and political resources in beating back the ragged bands of Taliban who increasingly control southern Afghanistan.

At the end of last year, the White House was talking about repeating what was deemed to have been the success of the "surge" in Iraq. Some 30,000 extra US troops were sent to Iraq pursuing more aggressive tactics and the Sunni Arab insurgency seemed to wind down soon after. But the real turning point in Iraq was probably the defeat of the Sunni Arabs by the Shia. Nothing of this sort is likely to undermine the Taliban in Afghanistan just as their guerrilla attacks are inflicting more casualties than ever.

For a long time, the Afghan war seemed confined to one country. But in the past year there has been cross-infection between a whole series of crises, from the insurgency in Indian-administered Kashmir to the Islamic fundamentalist takeover of the Swat valley west of Islamabad. The political temperature has been rising and the seriousness of what was happening was only slowly appreciated in Washington.

President Bush pretended that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was a threat to the rest of the world. His successor has to deal with a crisis in which India and Pakistan, both nuclear powers, are confronting each other. The dilemmas of Iraq seem to diminish by comparison.

The crisis in Afghanistan has been a slow-motion disaster. This was not the case in Iraq where guerrilla warfare against the US occupation erupted within weeks of the American occupation. In 2001 the Taliban appeared to have been swiftly and decisively defeated in a campaign in which the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance advanced with the support of the US air force directed by small teams of American special forces on the ground. The Taliban vanished from their frontline positions and fled Kabul and Kandahar without a fight.

Prior to the conflict, critics of American intervention had warned that Afghanistan was a notorious graveyard for foreign armies. They recalled that it was in the Kabul Gorge just east of the capital that an army of British and Indian soldiers were slaughtered by Afghan tribesmen in 1842. North of Kabul in the Panjshir valley there is visible evidence of the fate of another foreign invader. Local farmers have incorporated the rusty carcasses of old Soviet tanks, destroyed in ambushes in the 1980s and too heavy to move, into the stone walls which enclose their fields.

These dire warnings seemed to have been almost embarrassingly wrong-footed as the Taliban's rule fell apart in 2001. The aim of closing down al-Qa'ida training camps was easily accomplished. In fact it was all too easy. The critics had not been wrong in saying that Afghanistan is a land full of nasty surprises though this only slowly became apparent. But the hubris generated by swift success in 2001 led the Americans and the British thoughtlessly to linger in Afghanistan without any coherent policy or military and political aims.

In the British case the very purpose of its forces being in Afghanistan changed by the year. At one time in 2006 they seemed to be there as reconstruction teams who were not expected to fire a shot. At other moments British soldiers were portrayed as frontline fighters in the war against Islamic fundamentalist terror. Fire-fights in the bleak villages of southern Afghanistan were directly linked to defending the streets of London.

There was a fecklessness about the whole venture on the American and British side. Not surprisingly other Nato allies wondered what exactly they were getting into in sending their troops to Afghanistan. Comparisons with Iraq can be misleading but intervention in both countries never had overwhelming or even majority political support at home. Casualties were not particularly heavy compared to many other wars, but Iraqi or Afghan guerrillas are able to inflict casualties which are politically unsustainable for the American or British governments.

It is astonishing that only now the US is finally producing a policy for Afghanistan which is in keeping with the real nature of the imbroglio into which Mr Bush plunged in 2001 and floundered for seven years afterwards. The 9/11 attack on the World Trade Centre was carried out by members of al-Qa'ida orchestrated from camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan. But the Bush administration used the attacks to justify the neo-con agenda of war with Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein and vocal hostility towards Iran and Syria as members of the "axis of evil".

The main US ally in its war on terror was going to be Pakistan under General Pervez Musharraf, though it was an open secret that it was the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI, which had fostered the Taliban and established it in power in Kabul. So long as it had the covert backing of the ISI, the Taliban was never going to be truly defeated. "A year after 9/11 it was clear to many Pakistanis," writes Ahmed Rashid in his book Descent Into Chaos, "that Musharraf's support of the US-led war in Afghanistan was not the promised strategic U-turn that would end the army's long-standing support for Islamic extremists but rather a short-term tactical move to appease the United States and off-set India's hegemony." The reality on the ground was that the Taliban was the foster-child of the ISI. General Musharraf was prepared to join in an unenergetic pursuit of Arab members of al-Qa'ida in Pakistan. But the main objectives of the Pakistani army's traditional policy were never abandoned. These were to resist India, support the Muslims of Kashmir, protect the Pakistani nuclear weapons and seek to establish a pro-Pakistani government in Kabul.

From the beginning, the army saw the Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government as an enemy of Pakistan. Once the US decided to invade Iraq in 2003 General Musharraf concluded Washington was none too serious about its war on terror and the Taliban could be quietly revived. By 2006 the insurgency was back in business.

The Bush administration was not alone in its misunderstanding of what was happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The media also played an important role in misleading the world about what had happened in Afghanistan in 2001. Television cameras had shown US missiles illuminating the night sky over Kabul as they exploded in government offices or among the frontline bunkers. In reality there was little fighting. The Taliban were experienced enough fighters not to wait to be bombed. Their trenches were mostly empty. Assisted on their way by large bribes to individual warlords by the CIA most Taliban units vanished. They had probably been told by their Pakistani advisers that they should wait to fight another day.

I followed the retreating Taliban from Kabul to Kandahar waiting for them to make a stand. They never did. In the ancient city of Ghazni the Taliban simply switched sides, the only serious disputes in which six Taliban were killed, were over whether or not they should hand over government cars to the incoming administration. The Taliban had an armoured unit in Ghazni which had been heavily bombed but again there were almost no military casualties because Taliban fighters had sensibly abandoned their vehicles as soon as they realised they were going to come under air attack.

In Kandahar itself the Taliban had disappeared but they had not gone very far. Some were across the Pakistani border in Quetta and others had just returned to their villages. When I asked in one village if I could meet former Taliban commanders they said it might take as long as an hour to assemble them in the village guest house because some of them lived in outlying farms.

They were confident men who did not sound as if they expected to be out of power for ever. The villagers' objection to the Taliban was primarily to their rigorously enforced ban on growing opium poppies. As soon as the first American bombs fell, local farmers explained they had ploughed up their fields and planted poppies "on the grounds that the Taliban would have other things on their minds to think about than enforcing the poppy ban". They said their crops had failed because of a series of droughts and this was the only way they could pay off the money-lenders.

The Taliban were unpopular all over Afghanistan. They had never had support outside the Pushtun, the community to which 40 per cent of Afghans belong. The Tajiks, who make up a quarter of the population, were the backbone of the opposition Northern Alliance together with the Uzbeks, who make up a further 6 per cent. The Hazaras of central Afghanistan constitute a further 18 per cent of Afghans and had been savagely persecuted as Shia Muslims by the fundamentalist-Sunni Taliban.

In the aftermath of the fall of the Taliban there was hope all over Afghanistan that life might be about to get better. Reporting of the country usually dwells on violence rather than deprivation but it is one of the poorest countries in the world. The UNDP rates it as 174th out of 178 countries in the 2007-08 world poverty index. There were some positive developments after 2001 but by no means enough. "Even after almost seven years of reconstruction and development assistance, a large percentage of the population suffer from shortages of housing, clean water, and electricity, and cannot afford the rising price of food," according to a report by the Centre for the Study of Global Governance in London.

"Afghan women face the highest rates of illiteracy and maternal mortality in the world and unemployment still hovers around 40-70 per cent with few prospects available." Despite numerous pledges of international aid only $15bn of $39bn originally pledged has been disbursed according to an Oxfam/Acbar report last year. Out of this, 40 per cent goes back to the donor countries in the form of company profits and consultants' salaries.

Afghanistan is an economic wreck ravaged by war since 1980. The problems are immense whoever is handling them, whether the US, the Afghan government or aid agencies. Aside from corruption and incompetence even the most efficient government would have difficulty satisfying these needs. Iraq, the victim of 30 years of war and sanctions, at least had a tradition of central government. But in Afghanistan the government of Hamid Karzai has limited authority outside Kabul. Instead power has remained in the hands of warlords and militia leaders, detested by ordinary Afghans, who batten on the population. The Taliban's rise to power in the 1990s came about partly because they seemed an alternative to the warlords but in practice their success was often the result of co-opting them or buying their services. The US and the Karzai government pursued a similar policy after 2001 so the power of the warlords was never really broken.

The strength of the Taliban is in large part a reflection of the weakness of the government. This has enabled the Taliban to set up a parallel administration in many areas, meting out its own justice. The group also benefited from the ill-thought-out approach of the US-led foreign forces. For instance destruction of the opium poppy crop, which accounts for 52 per cent of the country's GDP, has for long been an American policy. But Richard Holbrooke, the US envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan, this week dismissed this scheme as "wasteful and inefficient" and said that the $800m spent on eradicating the poppies would have been better spent if it was given to Afghan farmers. "It has not hurt the Taliban one iota," declared Mr Holbrooke. Other sources say the Taliban had even welcomed the US eradication programme because it alienated farmers and drove up the price of their opium stocks.

The US troop surge in Afghanistan can probably prevent further erosion of the Afghan government's position if enough troops are deployed and money spent. But there are limits to what the US can do. The Taliban is never going to be defeated so long as it has its bases in the Pushtun belt inside north-western Pakistan. Nor is it likely that the Pakistani military will act against the Taliban so long as it sees them as one of its few allies against India. American drone attacks on Taliban and al-Qa'ida within Pakistan may kill some leaders but further anger ordinary Pakistanis. The ISI may not directly control the insurgency in Afghanistan but it can determine its intensity. This in turn gives Pakistan leverage over the US to prevent the Americans going too far in supporting India.

One of the main achievements of the surge in Iraq was that it gave the US public the impression that a victory had been won which in turn allowed the Americans to agree to withdraw their forces. President Bush was able to sign a Status of Forces Agreement with the Iraqi government at the end of last year which included a timetable for a US pull-out which Washington had furiously rejected in the past.

The surge may play a similar role in Afghanistan. One of the main reasons for keeping American and British forces there is because it would be humiliating to withdraw. But the role of foreign military forces has always been ambivalent. They prop up the Karzai government but they also de-legitimise it as a puppet administration. Their use of firepower, originally designed for use against the Soviet army, against mud-brick compounds in Afghan villages means an inevitable flow of civilian casualties and builds support for the Taliban. And despite all these efforts Mr Obama says military victory is not feasible. The Americans are finding, as the British did in the 19th century and the Russians in the 20th, that the effort of keeping an army in Afghanistan is not really worth it.

The men who will shape Afghanistan

Richard Holbrooke

President Obama's special envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan is emerging as a key figure in the new administration's foreign policy. Came to world prominence under Bill Clinton's presidency when he brokered talks that led to the Dayton peace accords between the warring factions in former Yugoslavia.

Mohamed Omar

The Taliban's supreme leader, there's nothing moderate about Omar. He is believed to be hiding out close to Quetta in Pakistan. Nonetheless, he has reportedly given the green light for representatives of his "Quetta Shura" or council to take part in Saudi-sponsored peace talks.

General David Petraeus

He rose to become America's most admired soldier after executing the surge in Iraq. Since October, the man described by some as future presidential material has been in charge of Central Command, a theatre that takes in the Middle East as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Abdul Salam Zaeef

The former Taliban Ambassador to Pakistan until late 2001, Zaeef made headlines recently for browsing the internet on his iPhone. He spent more than three years in Guantanamo, but now lives in Kabul and is seen as a go-between for moderate Taliban and the Afghan government.

Peter Galbraith

Former US ambassador to Croatia and close ally of Richard Holbrooke. Has been assigned a UN key post in Afghanistan, which reinforces American influence over the UN's operation there as the new Obama strategy is unveiled. Mr Galbraith, son of the economist JK, will oversee the "civilian surge" which will accompany additional troop numbers.

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar

Famed Jihadi commander in charge of Hezb-i-Islami, Hekmatyar's people have indicated to Kabul and the international community that they are willing to negotiate. Distinct from the Taliban, Hekmatyar was one of the anti-Soviet commanders backed by Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and sidelined when the Taliban swept to power.

Tomorrow Kim Sengupta on the new British mission to win hearts & minds

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Comments

[info]kameast wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:36 am (UTC)
taleban will win simply cos it offers an alternative to corrupt civilian AND military government in pakistan. There is only one way to defeat it that is to give the pakistani ppl wot they want that is
1) accountable governance.
2)indipendent and powerful judiciary to dispence true justice
3)independent police force free of ALL political control
4) mass execution of corrupt, loot orientated politicians and business classes, especialluy the corrupt elite.

very simple formula dont u think???
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:34 pm (UTC)
and how do you propose we do this?
Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]voodoojedizin wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:30 am (UTC)
Somebody bought the propaganda hook line and sinker.

Before 911 the United States was getting ready to recognize the Taliban.
Go to "You tube" and you can watch members of the head of the Taliban at dinner parties with congressmen and senators. And a web search will also turn up some paperwork. Why do you think those men were there?

They were there for the same reason we're in Afghanistan and it has nothing to do with terrorists.

How about a 7.5 billion-dollar gas pipeline that will run 2,600 kilometres and will transport gas from Iran to India through Pakistan. It is seen as crucial to India's energy needs.

7.5 billion is what it will take to build but you can see because of where it is ,and the countries involved it's worth a whole lot more.

And these are the boys who are running the show the Economic Cooperation Organisation and they include Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

You'll notice the country "Afghanistan" in that list, well the Taliban didn't wanna make a deal with the Americans. Just like the guys before them that didn't wanna make a deal with the Russians. But this time the next thing they now they're the number one terrorists in the world are being bombed by the great Satan himself.

And that part about how the Afghans hate the Taliban that must have came from CNN or the BBC. The reason the Taliban got to power and stayed in power is the fact that they were going around kicking warlords butts in fact that's what they were fighting when we showed up. And we even enlisted one of the most victorious ones to help us.
They brought law and order and discipline it may have been harsh but it was still welcomed.

You should do your research a little better and use a little common sense why would the world's greatest superpower be spending billions of dollars blowing up concrete buildings used to train terrorists with AK 47's and roadside bombs.

The terrorists that flew into the world trade towers got there flight training in the United States.

These links are stories about the TAPI pipe line. Or just do your own web search.

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Business/?id=3.0.3088667377

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/KC26Ag01.html

http://www.deccanherald.com/Content/Mar102009/foreign20090310123182.asp?section=updatenews


Re: Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:40 am (UTC)
Of course they were, Bin Laden was personally brought into the American fold by Bush Snr and for many years the Bush family and Bin Laden family were seen socially together, Bush Jnr was in business with Osama's youngest brother and even attended his wedding sitting in the same row of seats as Osama.

The Taleban were like Al Qaeda, created, funded, operated and armed by the CIA, the Taleban's role was to offer a political opposition to Russian occupation whereas Al Qaeda were the militant side tasked with fighting the Russians, ask anyone over there how for years the CIA went crawling in the mud trying to buy back the huge amount of Stinger missiles that were given out like sweeties and very few reclaimed and speculation that these were used successfully against helicopters in Iraq.

As for the terrorists flight training, go take a look at who was a part owner of that flight school in Florida... you got it... its another Bush, with a Bush in charge too of the towers security and a cousin in tow too, rather a lot of Bush family members isnt there?
Re: Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC)
Nnegative, before '9/11' big oil offered taliban "carpets pf gold or carpet bombing" and were firmly told to piddle awf.
About the article above : since when has aggressive corporate welfare war been "liberation"? That theadbare shirt fell off the backs of the perpetrators a long time ago
Re: Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:07 pm (UTC)
There's no oil in Afghanistan and your lies will not change this.
Re: Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Propaganda hook line and sinker
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:06 pm (UTC)
So the Americans were good friends with the Taliban but invaded Afghanistan to remove the Taliban because the Taliban wouldn't let the Americans build a pipe through Afghanistan. Anyone else see why this doesn't make any sense.

Given that the plans for the pipeline had abandoned by Unocal in 1998 there was no reason for America to invade Afghanistan and remove the Taliban.

Given that the people of Afghanistan were cheering in the streets when the Taliban was removed it's more likely that they really did hate the Taliban's harsh rule, rather than supported it.

Stop listening to Michael Moore's nonsence and try reading some reputable information.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1169995/posts
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
Colonialism has never succeded. What is not your IS NOT YOURS!
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC)
Colonialism Imperialism Zionism has never succeded since the Crusades. All colonial Empires, be them Rule Britannia, French Colonialism, they all lost their Empires simply because these Empires are racist murderers who are just greedy land grabbers, slave drivers who who nick diamond and gold and who want to make the world become like them and change other cultures around the world so it becomes all Western culture, this planet.
What a boring world that would be, then the whole world would have to speak only English, eat only fish and chips and die in careless, filthy hospitals. Then there would be no more Indian, Korean, Middle Eastern food. No Couscous either. Can you imagine having to east only sausage and fucking chips. This is the kind of culture this country wants to spread around the world!
Peace
[info]sthult wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:32 am (UTC)
Any possible solution in Afghanistan has to take into consideration the fact that the taliban to a very large degree consists of afghans. This means that true peace has to involve dialogue with - the taliban. A war against the taliban is, to a large degree, a war against afghans - a peace with the taliban is, to a large degree, a peace with the afghans - the conclusion thus being that a peace with the taliban means peace in afghanistan. There is no military solution whatsoever in Afghanistan and, as far as the "war on terrorism is concerned, the best defense against terrorism is - peace!!

All the best

Stefan Hultberg
Re: Peace
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:41 am (UTC)
True, spot on. It's what you call a people struggle, movement, revolution, war to repel the invaders who lie like they did in Iraq to fool the rest of us. Most countries that were colonised and gained independence were called terrorists for fighting the colonials. One's a terrorist is the other's freedom fighter. Remember Mandela, he was called a terro. When he was imprisoned for 30 years, what did the British govenment do. And where was Clint Eastwood to pretend now that he cares about making a movie about Mandela.
Re: Peace
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:10 pm (UTC)
The Taliban is no more representative of the Afghans than the Nazis were of the Germans. Peace with the Taliban means enslavement and brutality for the Afghans.

Also peace is no defence against terrorism as most targets of terrorist are peaceful countries.
On then other hand
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:47 pm (UTC)
taliban are as representative of Afghans as the Herr Hitler government was representative of the people of Germany - so what? People in emergency situations migrate towards those who offer effective solutions ; unfortunately in the instance of National Socialist (alka 'nazi') Germany, there was imprudent belief in ability to defeat the USSR in the matter of gaining access to middle East and caucasian oil reserves
Re: Peace
[info]hanif001 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 04:57 pm (UTC)
The taliban represent the sunni people of Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance (obviously in the north) represent the shia. There in lies the problem. Also, the taliban have mixed up Afghan/Saudi traditions with Islam to create their own version of strict Islam (many of their methods are against the teachings provided by Islam).

But dont make the mistake of thinking that the Taliban are not native afghans (most from mid and south).
Soviets were there too for 20 years and lost, humiliated!
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:34 am (UTC)
I don't understand why the Yankee doodles don't learn from history. Surely they must have known that the other superpower, the Soviets were in Afghanistan for 20 years and couldn't beat a bunch of miserable people with bear fet and naked hands. The Yankees are beginning to get tired and loose. Bunch of loosers! And cowards who are strong only against third world rag-tag armies. Go and try China or even North Korea!
Re: Soviets were there too for 20 years and lost, humiliated!
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:12 pm (UTC)
The Soviets didn't have the supports of the Afghans, the American's have the support of the Northern Alliance.

Also do you really believe that the Afghans beat tanks with their 'bear fet and naked hands' or are you willing to believe they had RPG's?
Re: Soviets were there too for 20 years and lost, humiliated!
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:39 pm (UTC)
I meant bare feet.
That was one more reason the superpower still have not beaten a bunch of bare feet and naked hands rag-tag army of the Talaban despite local help from traitors Northen Alliance.
History teaches...
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:10 am (UTC)
History has taught that since Alexander the Great, no colonial power has managed successfully to garrison Afghanistan, indeed Alexander's hold was tenous but he is recorded as the last emperor to hold Afghanistan, a country that has seen off mightier forces than the pitiful one sitting there now.

The Russians had at its peak a quarter of a million soldiers in Afghanistan and also a large quantity of Spetznatz soldiers including many from the elite KGB and GRU divisions of Spetznatz, soldiers that are the only ones considered the equal of our own SAS, it mattered not, every twist and turn saw the Russians defeated and humiliated and in the end, holed up in their bases as NATO troops are today.

Now some years later, Bush in his "message from God" moment and listening to the pure arrogance of his nations heart, thought that he, the "mighty" Bush, emissary from God would go in there and tame that nest of hostility and found out some years later, like the Russians, like the British that Afghanistan cannot be tamed.

Obama has a stark choice, admit defeat or be forced into defeat, there is no other outcome, America is desperate I know for a win here after its humiliating show in Iraq where a rag tag resistance has kept them from gaining that victory they so clearly crave, yet for all its missiles, drones, satellites and hi-tech military hardware, America is in poorer shape than Russia right now and like Russia, Afghanistan broke their economy continually pouring good money after bad.

How does America think it will fare against Iran or Syria? Pakistan? Iraq is a very small country and if the supposed worlds "unipower" cannot control even that small nation, does it really think it could win against a much more populous, well armed and defiant country like Iran or Pakistan?

Or maybe they will try another "Operation Black Dog"... I am sure that the administration is so desperate right now that the temptation to drop a massive VX bomb and use two fuel air bombs to erase the evidence must be very high.
Re: History teaches...
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:04 am (UTC)
What on earth is the bankrupt banana republic of Britain doing there?
Colonialism
[info]cjn1946 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:12 am (UTC)
Leave these people alone to develope their own form of government culture etc. All the colonising effort in the past, no matter how well meant, have imposed a government/culture which when they left sooner or later collapsed and the colonised countries reverted back to natural progression from the Middle Ages culture they are in. Let them evolve naturally.
drugs
[info]bilbobaggins123 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:19 am (UTC)
its all about opium poppies so the british can corner the global drugs trade. it has nothing to do with terrorism.
Spot on
[info]older_greek wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:23 am (UTC)
and I love the comments - they add that something else perhaps
Territory
[info]barncactus wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:47 am (UTC)
Territory is important. Tribal territory especially so. Fighting local people for control of their territory will always be hard, and we never seem to learn that. Even if we prevail militarily (very unlikely with the tiny force in Afghanistan) there is the little matter of what happens next. We will not finance the radical improvement of Afghan living standards. It's just too expensive. Those previously in power will nip off into the hinterland to avoid the fight, regroup and eventually get their territory back. That's life. Obviously there are distinctive aspects to the Afghanistan fiasco, not least the hard line religious character of the Taliban, but it's just the same story. People fight for their land and rarely give up for long. And there are huge numbers of people in Pakistan and Afghanistan, many well versed in the kind of struggle they are maintaining. We are dreaming if we think this is a winnable struggle, and even if we were not, do we really want to be there for the next several generations, weeedkilling poppies?
The arabs were the empire buiders
[info]leedsrob wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:49 pm (UTC)
Europeans always get tarred with being the empire builders but the Arabs took over Spain and would have had the rest of Europe if they could have. Alexander went east and Genghis Khan came west. The Mughals of India grabbed as much as they could, the Persians came to Greece. It's a human condition not a western one. P.s as to the UK trying to spread fish and chips and dirty hospitals around the world please feel free to take yourself and your friends back to where you came from and go the hospitals there and fill your face with as much couscous as you please if it suits you.
Re: The arabs were the empire buiders
[info]britfree wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC)
cous cous royale yum yum yum,is it lunchtime already ???
Re: The arabs were the empire buiders
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:44 pm (UTC)
Hello Brit free,
I've just had some couscous for my lunch actually with a lovely casserole dish and some salad and French baguette. And guess what may be we should tell our friend leedsrob (above) that actually it's proven that the dish I just ate for my lunch is much more healthier than too much sausage & chips that leedsrob loves!
Re: The arabs were the empire buiders
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC)
leedsrob, are you from leeds where they wear T-shirts throughout the year be it summer or winter time.
First I don't know what makes you think I live in the UK because I don't and thank god for that. I live in a country where many of your English people buy homes in Spain because they cannot afford to buy them in your "lovely" cloudy depressing England and we have lots of fun here in Spain. In England you are just pale deprressed sickmen of Europe!
Mistake - The Answer's Quite Simple
[info]neil639 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:56 pm (UTC)
The basic "mistake" was the fact that our leaders still have an Imperialist, World Power mentality, and they went along with the US led invasions and military occupations of Iraq and Afhanistan. What right have we to be deciding who rules any foreign country? It is the colonial mentality of killing and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people, and at the same time lecturing them on civilised values. Our soldiers are not, as the Government likes to trumpet, defending the UK abroad. They have invaded and occupied foreign countries in a vain attempt to install and maintain puppet governments in power - a never-ending task. It seems, however, that the Afghanistan puppet Karzai is not dancing to the tune of his masters, for the US wants to replace him. The reason the invasion of Afghanistan will fail is simple - any foreign invasion is hated more by the people of that country than are any of their political factions.
Re: Mistake - The Answer's Quite Simple
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:17 pm (UTC)
The Afghans democratically elected Karzai, he is not a puppet.
Re: Mistake - The Answer's Quite Simple
[info]amerkun wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:10 pm (UTC)
That adhominem attack works to shore up suppot for Israel doesn't it.
http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/42-media-spin/5267-propaganda-the-internet-and-the-media-from-counterjihad-to-the-decent-left

The US, my country, is the only country found guilty by the ICC of supporting and participating in terrorism. (but our over-represented and supposed "greatest ally" hasn't been judged officialy yet ), not to be confused with being held to account.

Gulbuddin Hekmatyar has a very colorful past. I'd like to know how any times he has moved from CIA asset to topping the terrorist list and back again, and if he's related to Gorbanifar.

It's a joke. And even worse,Obama on TV right now, saying we're sending troops to stengthen Karzai (the mayor of Kabul), He's even taking Bushes line, "we were attacked on 9/11 by these extremests for no reason at all".
I wonder if he is referring to the Taliban, the mujahadeen, the Afgans- bloodied and widowed, Bin Laden, or the ever allusive "AL Queda".
None of us really know who attacked us, but we know who is being blamed.
Obama is sunk.
Hillary's right behind him. I wonder if she's armed?
Bush handed him the poison chalice; The bankers, the elite, and the military Industrialists are wielding the Sword of Dimocles.
The indistinguishable right-wingers, and neo-liberals from Clintons term are all over the TV, including madeline albright - the war criminal from the Yugoslavian bust up. It's sickening.
The menace is Wahabism (Saudi Arabia)
[info]hghiassi wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:09 pm (UTC)
Thanks for the thoughtful article. Reading it several comment comme to my mind:
1-Pakistan is in the grip of a violent turmoil fomented by Wahabism. This is the result of blind policies of the USA/West, Pakistani governments and Saudi propaganda and petrodollars. It will be a catastrophy for Asia, and the whole world for that matter, if Wahabism is allowed to rule Afghanistan and Pakistan. All the world including the West should not loose sight of this mortal menace and should help the region in its fight against this obscurantist phenomenon and fight it at its source that is Saudi Arabia. West played with this fire, and now this fire may get out of their control and reach West.

2- As mentioned, the most important danger the region is facing is Wahabism that is promoted by Saudi Arabian Princes and their money. Wahabism is creating terrorist minded ignorant 'Muslims'. If not stopped, this will at the end result in Talibanisation of muslims in most of Arab countries and in London, New York etc.

3- For 30 years, West (USA and UK..) has made coalition with the wrong side in the Middle East. The have helped Wahabism (Taliban, Saudi Arabia etc) againt the stabilizing forces in the region and most important of all against Iran. West now is seeing the catastrophic results of this strategic blunder.
West should abondon its wrong policies of hostility and demonization towards Iran. Iran ia a key element and can help West.

I recommend to Western political leaders to read the excellent book "Iran , Empire of Mind" By Michael Axworthy to understand Iran and what it represents and can do.

Anyone who knows, and knows that he knows, Makes the stead of intelligence leap over the vaults of heaven;
Anyone who does not know, but knows that he does not know, Can bring his lame little donkey to the destination nonetheless;
Anyone who does not know, and does not know that he does not know, Is stuck for ever in double ignorance.

Poem by Nasir-od-Din Tusi(1201-1274)
from a the above mentionned book.
allies like these
[info]britfree wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:25 pm (UTC)
with allies like these ? pakistan is corrupt from the top to the very bottom, kept in the dark ages to satisfy the greed of nawaz or zidari , democray consists of these bandits weighing their bought votes , however since the british state can no longer be trusted not to steal elections (GLENROTHES) it might be fairer to say that these practices are almost universal now . afghanistan is no different .ethical foreign policy,my archie ! ! !
'Learning from history' nonsense
[info]tamelaidir wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:19 pm (UTC)
It would be useful if people would stop saying if this country or that 'never learns from history'.

History is IRRELEVANT, it is about the now, the money you can make now and the ways you make it, now!

No one gives a curse about the three Afghan wars the British fought and lost in Afghanistan in the 19th century, nobody gives a toss about the Soviets getting their butts kicked in the 70s/80s, now all that is history.

These people aren't stupid, they know their history better than anyone else but it doesn't matter if troops get killed or anything else. I can't imagine for a moment they ring their hands and think of history! They go in (obviously not physically themselves) other people (the army of the poor and unemployed) go in, words like democracy and freedom are thrown around, the deals are done, the money is made and they live like Kings while other people criticise them for not learning from history - its absurd.
another thing
[info]tamelaidir wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:42 pm (UTC)
the other thing, they are well able to find money for moving the sand and rocks around in these countries but they can't find the resources to run proper transport systems, have medical insurance for all citizens, clean hospitals etc etc, recession my butt! recession for who?
Karzai
[info]neil639 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:40 pm (UTC)
To uanime5 who claims that because Karzai was elected in Afghanistan he is not a puppet, I would remind he/she that the candidates who stood for election had to be "approved" by the USA - the US President was probably worried that the USA's former allies, the Taliban, might be elected. US approval of candidates is a 21st century way of getting your puppet "elected."
Re: Karzai
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 07:22 pm (UTC)
Well said sir
Geopolitical facts
[info]jaded63 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 05:19 pm (UTC)

Before the Iraq war, both Iraq and Afghanistan were hostile to the U.S. and Britain. Now they are both client states. Moreover, they surround Iran, which is our most intractable enemy in the region. In addition, India on the one side, and increasing Coalition forces on the other, now hem Pakistan in. Those who do not understand what has happened, is happening, and will happen, make the laughable assertion that the West, principally the U.S. and Britain, have 'lost'. Perhaps they will suddenly understand reality after the coming Indo-Pakistan war, where the West will fight with India, and following which Indo-Western hegemony in the Middle East will be complete.

Re: Geopolitical facts
[info]amerkun wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:37 pm (UTC)
Israel's enemies are not the US's enemies. And Iran has never attacked another country in the last several hundred years. Saddam did use chemical weapons in that war, and against Kurds, that the US provided to them.
They were developed and tested on the people in apartheid SA, with the support of Israel and the US.
Maybe there were other countries, I don't know, but the US is my country and I appalled at this governments behavior.
Unlike you, I won't be an apologist for genocidal policies. You need to objectively research history and stop buying the propaganda. If you can't handle the truth then just shut up because you're not helping, and when all of these countries are swallowed up, maybe yours will be next. Everything changes, and someday, in your hour of need, that these oppressed people will have more mercy for you than you have had for them.
It doesn't matter who we elect, the policies continue. It seems that none of this is going to end - from these disgusting colonial wars to the welfare for the elite until the structure changes on the inside. It's becoming apparent that peaceful elections have no effect.
Troops in Afghanistan
[info]fwdinsight wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 06:00 pm (UTC)
What are we doing there if our economy is borrowing every cent to stay afloat. Its about time we cut our cloth according to the sail. Demand the otherNato Parners get involved and tell them they will have the rockets nearwer their dorstep as Iran will certainly move in if we move out.
What are waiting for the first nuclear even in Britain. One man has seen it happen.
Re: Geopolitical facts
[info]kodak321 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:40 pm (UTC)
Absolutely. This is the most dangerous region in the world. It is a powder keg that may ignite within months. Well said.
Ah ha
[info]wearesmiling wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:18 pm (UTC)
The Taliban vanished from their frontline positions and fled Kabul and Kandahar without a fight. - Smart move. Its I'll be back scenario

The UNDP rates Afghanistan as 174th out of 178 countries in the 2007-08 world poverty index - So how did this come about. The US supported "the freedom fighters" to fight the soviets and then promptly abandoned them leading to poverty - this poverty produces excellent material for extremist/terrorist who hate America

Simple - A Foreign policy disaster for the US. Bin Laden was once Ronald Reagan's mate. Its all turned very sour now

Fantasy
[info]singhkool wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:21 pm (UTC)
This article is written by a zionist stooge of the Pentagon.
agree with ancientoneuk, disagree with uniame5
[info]lorentaylor wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:39 pm (UTC)
No one has ever been able to successfully colonize Afganistan, either directly or indirectly. And Unocal is not the only ones interested in a Central Asian pipeline. Whether Central Asian oil & gas will be pipelined to Western-friendly countries is a major point-of-conflict for the 21st-century.

And thanks to voodoojedizin-i've been having trouble finding recent links regarding the Central Asian pipelines.
[info]kameast wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:11 am (UTC)
All these comments are just accademic rubbish now, there is only ONE solution as i said before that is economic empowerment of the ppl and true justice to all and and end to corruption and accontablility the government.

uanime5, how this can be done is exactly same way the US was able to force pakistan to kidnap 100,s of its citizens and ship them over to the US, for which the US had the countrys Chief Justice removed for.... daring to oppose this!

If the US can force pakistan do this and force it into a devestating war against terror it can easily force it into radical reform of its state institution to establish ruthless accountabaility and rule of law.... very simeple??? It can also make corruption in Pakitan an offence triable in the US like the drugs trade it...?? very simeple???

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