Patrick Cockburn: 'We need to talk to the Taliban'

David Cameron's controversial attack on the links between the Taliban and the Pakistani military misses the point. Those links are our only hope of solving this conflict, argues Patrick Cockburn

Pakistani tribal villagers chant slogans against the American and Pakistan government

AP

Pakistani tribal villagers chant slogans against the American and Pakistan government

David Cameron's denunciation this week of Pakistan for "promoting terror" misses the point that there will be no peace in Afghanistan without Pakistani involvement. Finger-wagging by Mr Cameron is not going to change the interdependence between the insurgency in Afghanistan and the Pakistani army which has existed since the Soviet invasion in 1979.

But the link between the Taliban and the Pakistani military is an opportunity as well as a threat. Safe havens within Pakistan are essential to the Taliban, so its leaders will have to join peace talks if Pakistan insists that they do so. Such is the current level of Pakistani engagement in Afghanistan, which is not going to go away, that the Pakistani army must be openly part of any negotiations.

Serious talks about ending the war in Afghanistan have to bring together the four main players in the conflict: the US, the Afghan government, Pakistan and the Taliban. The aim of negotiations should be the formation of a national unity government. Other initiatives, such as the plan for Western states to pledge money to pay off members of the Taliban who defect to the side of the Kabul government, are absurd and self-deceiving, since the Taliban think they are winning. Their leaders openly comment that the US would not have sacked two of its commanders-in-chief in Afghanistan in less than a year if they thought they were pursuing a successful strategy. Commitments by President Obama and David Cameron about dates for a withdrawal of troops, even if these are conditional on political and military progress, show that neither leader feels politically strong enough to send more soldiers. For the US-led coalition, time is fast running out.

Not only is the war against the Taliban not being won, but the insurgents are growing stronger and the government in Kabul weaker, despite 30,000 US troop reinforcements. Heavily publicised campaigns, such as that to reoccupy a few farming villages at Marja in Helmand province, have failed to evict the local Taliban fighters. This lack of progress is telling, given that there are only an estimated 28,000 Taliban fighters facing more 145,000 Nato and 97,000 Afghan army troops.

The reasons for this failure include the opposition of ordinary Afghans to the occupation of their towns and villages by foreign troops, the discrediting of the Afghan government of President Hamid Karzai because of the fraudulent election in August 2009, and the belief among Afghans that he runs a regime of warlords and racketeers. "As a result," said one Afghan expert, "the insurgency is popular among Afghans even where the Taliban is not."

The US and its allies have never quite known what to do about an Afghan government which is increasingly discredited. For the moment, they are pursuing two wholly contradictory policies. One is "Afghanisation": turning the war over to the Afghan government by expanding the Afghan army and police at breakneck speed and giving it more control over aid money. A second policy, espoused by the American commander General David Petraeus, is for the US army to fund local militias answering to itself rather than Mr Karzai, thereby weakening the central government. Assassinations of suspected Taliban commanders by Task Force 373, effectively an American-run death squad, terrorise and infuriate Afghan villagers who are often the unintended victims.

Even if the Afghan government was not weak, it would not be possible to win the war militarily so long as the Taliban has sanctuaries across the frontier in Pakistan. Criticism of Pakistan, including Mr Cameron's outburst, has increased sharply in volume this week, as many of the files leaked to Wikileaks appear to show Pakistan's military intelligence – the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI – overseeing the Taliban's day-to-day operations. Such reports, which seem to come mostly from Afghan intelligence, are unconvincing and read as if they were concocted by local informants. It is unlikely, to say the least, that ISI agents were personally buying bottles of alcoholic drink in the markets of Peshawar and spiking them with poison with the intention of giving them to Western troops. The ISI is skilful and experienced enough to avoid providing much direct evidence of its contacts with the Taliban. Even so, a central feature of the Afghan war is that the Taliban cannot be defeated because under pressure, they can seek safety in Pakistan, where their leaders are based.

The intimate relationship between the Taliban and Pakistani army did not change after the attacks of 11 September 2001, when the US was at its most belligerent. It is unlikely to do so now. America's need to keep on good terms with the Pakistani army – three-quarters of a million-strong, nuclear-armed, and in control of Pakistan's policy on Afghanistan – means that it can never successfully pressure Pakistan to close the border, even supposing this was feasible. Earlier this month, Washington was applauding General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani's reappointment as the Pakistani army chief of staff, though Kayani, seen today as sympathetic to US needs, was head of the ISI in 2004-07 when it was helping the Taliban restart the war in Afghanistan.

Instead of attacking Pakistan's quasi-control of the Taliban, President Obama and Mr Cameron would do better to use it to bring to an end Afghanistan's 30 years of civil war and foreign intervention. The Taliban leaders may not want to talk, believing they are on their way to winning a complete victory once the US and its allies withdraw. They would prefer to see Mr Karzai at the end of a rope rather than at the other end of a negotiating table. But if the Pakistani generals think that the moment has come for a deal on Afghanistan, then it will be difficult for the Taliban to turn them down.

For the moment, the US, Britain and the allies of the Afghan government are giving priority to "Afghanising" the war rather than trying to negotiate its end. This was the strategy endorsed by the international conference in Kabul earlier this month. To a degree, "Afghanisation", like "Vietnamisation" in South Vietnam 40 years ago, is camouflage for a Western withdrawal. In so far as it amounts to a substantive policy on the grounds it is hindered by the fragility and decreasing legitimacy of the Kabul government. Having faked the results of the presidential election in 2009, Mr Karzai seized control of the previously independent Electoral Complaints Commission in February and is likely to fix the results of the parliamentary election in September.

"Afghanisation" only stands a chance of showing results over time, and the time is not there. High-speed development of the Afghan state is not going to work. For instance, the official number of the Afghan army is 97,000, its real strength probably around 60,000, and the plan is to increase this to 134,000 by the end of 2011. The notoriously corrupt police force is to be expanded at a similarly breakneck pace. Past experience shows that recruits frequently join up only to make a small sum of money, get a square meal and disappear as soon as training is finished. If recruits are found, they are unlikely to be Pashtun, the community to which 42 per cent of Afghans belong and out of which the Taliban were born. As a result, Afghan soldiers sent to Pashtun heartlands will mostly be Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazara who do not even speak the local language.

The very emphasis on training reveals another weakness of the Kabul government: it lacks a core of loyal supporters willing to fight and die for it. This is in contrast to the Taliban and their allies, who are somehow able to use old-fashioned infantry weapons to hold their own against heavily armed Western forces backed by the world's most modern air force.

The outcome of the fighting over the past year shows that the "surge" and "Afghanisation" are both failing to shift the balance of forces against the Taliban. This may disincline the Taliban to negotiate when they are doing well, but the hostility of the majority of Afghans who are non-Pashtun will deny them outright victory. On negotiations, they have always denounced Mr Karzai as a US pawn and will talk to the US as the occupying power only about a withdrawal and the release of prisoners. The US, for its part, insists that Mr Karzai's government alone should talk to the insurgents, though negotiations will be serious only if the Americans are involved.

The obstacles are enormous, but this might just be the moment for a deal to be made. The White House would like to get Afghanistan off the front pages and stop it being the lead item on television news before the next US presidential election in 2012. This will happen only if American soldiers stop dying, in which case, as happened in Iraq in 2008, US media interest in Afghanistan will swiftly wane. To achieve this, the US does not need a final agreement, but it does need a ceasefire to stop the present politically unsustainable trickle of casualties.

A problem for the US is that many of its generals have learnt the wrong lessons from Iraq. There the insurgency was divided, had no central control and, most crucially, was confined to the fifth of the Iraqi population which is Sunni Arab and was opposed by the four-fifths who are Shia or Kurdish. Squeezed between bloodthirsty al-Qa'ida fanatics and merciless Shia militiamen and soldiers, the Sunni rebels switched from attacking US troops to making an alliance with them. The situation in Afghanistan is wholly different.

The government of Hamid Karzai has an incentive to reach a settlement before the Americans start withdrawing, since his political strength depends on them. As one diplomat in Baghdad put it: "Distrust of foreigners is part of the DNA of Afghans." He added that Mr Karzai and other Afghan leaders suffer from a "Najibullah syndrome" – a fear that they will be abandoned by their foreign sponsor, as was the last Communist head of state, Mohammad Najibullah, who was tortured and hanged by the Taliban in 1996. His fate may incline Mr Karzai at least to consider talking to the Taliban and Pakistan, though this will alienate members of his government belonging to the old anti-Taliban Northern Alliance that recovered from near-defeat by taking advantage of the US decision after 11 September to overthrow the Taliban, which enabled it to march into Kabul in 2001.

Support from the Pakistani army was essential to the Taliban's survival and return to war in 2006. Calling for talks between the US, Pakistan, Taliban and Karzai government, Professor Gilles Dorronsoro, an expert on Afghanistan at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, cogently argues that "negotiations with Taliban leaders can be undertaken only if the Pakistani army agrees to act as broker. Without Pakistan, there will be no solution in Afghanistan." The Pakistani army has some incentives for trying for an agreement now. Such negotiations would make Pakistan, rather than India, America's most important ally in the region. Moreover, it is to the advantage of Pakistan that the Taliban become part of an internationally recognised power-sharing government in Kabul. Pakistan benefited little from being the main supporter of a largely unrecognised Taliban regime ruling most of Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001.

Of course, it would be much nicer from the point of view of America, Britain, Nato and the Karzai government if the Pakistani army were to stop the Taliban crossing the 2,500-kilometre Afghan-Pakistan border and not ask for a quid pro quo. There is no sign of this happening, however – and it would, in any case, not be easy to do. The Pakistani army is already overstretched, taking back districts occupied by the Pakistani Taliban in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas on its north-west frontier. Local Pakistani military commanders told me that they regard their own insurgents as bandits and fanatics undeserving of the name of Taliban. But they have nothing but praise for the Afghan Taliban, whom they see as Pashtun freedom-fighters battling a foreign occupation and a hostile government in Kabul. They also ask why they should be told to police their side of the frontier, as if this was easy, when the US-led coalition and the Afghan army have wholly failed to secure their side.

In many ways, what needs to be done now was what was not done under the Bonn agreement in 2001 when, in the wake of the fall of the Taliban regime, Mr Karzai was selected by the US as the new leader of Afghanistan. The Taliban were not at the peace conference and were treated as if they had been permanently eliminated from the political map. The Pashtun community found itself marginalised and deprived of power and Pakistan's interests were ignored in an accord that was a recipe for instability.

Nine years after Bonn, Afghanistan is ravaged by apparently insoluble conflicts, but a solution can come only if this time the four players holding real power in the country negotiate a settlement.

  • Guest
    first class post. A nobel prize winner surely.
  • daulatram
    Cockburn's cold-blooded analysis has only one interesting thing to note: "The Pakistani army has some incentives for trying for an agreement now. Such negotiations would make Pakistan, rather than India, America's most important ally in the region." This means: India can go jump. The Americans and the British are NOT India's friends. India must deal with Iran and Russia to discipline Pakistan and prevent it dominating Afghanistan.
  • The Taliban could not be compared to the IRA or other national terrorist organisation simply because it has an internationalist philosophy. That vision is to recreate an Islamic state in Afghanistan, conquer nuclear Pakistan, perhaps Iran and the entirety of the Muslim dominated countries. They wish to establish a universal Islamic state based on Salafi principles, essentially an idealised and somewhat fictitious golden age of Islam that comprised of the times of the prophet and up to the first three generation of Muslims. If this state had been founded on democracy with equal rights for men and women, I would have thought that even the secular Muslim would be persuaded. However, that is not the underlying intention. The khilafat or this supposed Islamic state would ultimately to dominated by the mullahs who call themselves scholars yet totally lack in any understanding of the sociological and contextual of the Quran and the Hadith. So ultimately, we are talking about a group of men wanting to control all other men in the name of religion. This is the core of all systems of government, whether it is democracy or autocracy, those in power telling the minions how to lead their lives. So essentially, the Taliban is only trying to achieve what the rest of the leaders have perhaps with the difference that there might have been some kind of complicated popularity contest that decided the fate of Obama and Cameron. So why shouldn't we talk to the Taliban? We should not because of their universalism. It is a foreign ideology, one that saw its inception in Egypt in the middle of last century and was carefully developed to its present form in parts of central Arabia. The Taliban is not representative of Afghani culture eventhough there might be mass support for them in the working and dispossessed classes. When the West engages in diplomacy that should be carefully guided through the fedal Afghan chiefs and representatives, not the Arab element. Emphasis needs to be places on how important the Afghan culture is and how it predates that of Salafi Islam. It is not a land that could be unified in a Western sense, however, it could be in a religious sense as the Taliban had achieved through force. Afghan culture, its artistic life, its sporting achievements should be mass promoted and heavily invested in. We are talking about the need of investment over a 10 to 15 year period and spanning a generation. Don't engage with the Taliban but do engage with the ordinaty Afghan and at all cost, provide the ordinary Afghan in remote villages with a sense of security, non-religiously aligned identity and opportunity to better themselves through education. That is the requited dialogue.
  • sally2801
    We focus on religion which divides us but genes unite Christian Europeans with Muslim Afghans and Pakistanis and Hindu Indians who share the bulk of their DNA. Beneath those scarves and turbans are intelligent Caucasians who evolved as HOMO SAPIENS and adapted as they migrated across the Eurasian super continent. We share the same joy, sorrow, hope, fear and patrotism in our common humanity. LET PEACE REIGN.
  • This guy understood it all!!!
  • Talk is afghan way...shuhra
  • mhenriday
    The US-UK attempt to control Central Asia is failing miserably, bankrupting the two countries in the process and, to judge from what the so-called «mainstream» (corporate) media reports, leading to a not insignificant degree of instability there. May I point out, as is often done when referring to the dangers of instability in Pakistan, that both these two countries possess nuclear arms, and that one of them has demonstrated a willingness to use them ? Perhaps the instability that should most preoccupy us lies significantly closer to home than that which may or may not obtain in Pakistan.... Henri
  • Escriba su comentario aquí.
  • su comentario aquí.INTERESANTES comentarios muy ilustrativos y oportunos saludos.
  • You are an idiot. You know nothing about the Quran that you would have the gall to comment on it. It is not the Taliban or Afghans invading their own country but its the US & NATO thugs and their tag along slimy, cowardly, nodding little weasels such as the Indians who seek to profit through the sale of pornography, liquor and their utterly ridiculous movies in Afghanistan. Indian presence is a cancer for Afghans.
  • SID_VICIOUS
    Suresh there are plenty of terrorists in india im sure you have seen what the hindus did to the sikhs in 1986 in the golden temple all the people that got murdred men women and kids you heard of the sikh story and im sure your familiar with khalistan sikhs are trying to get a country of there own maybe we and america might have to go in and bomb india to give sikhs the justice they are seeking in forming there own country i wonder how many hindu terrorists we will create by going in what you reckon mate any ideas?
  • SID_VICIOUS
    Lets be honest if somebody came to bomb us in england the scots would help us no question about it and vice versa we would have suicide bombs and terrorist attacks going off al the time that what the invaders would describe us byt we would only be defending our homeland so as far as most people with any basic intteligence is concerned is we would be freedom fighters just like the taliban it would be the same in any country if we went to india and bombed them they too would do the same of couse we would call them sikh and hindu terrorists and te same for the homegrown hindus and sikhs in britain who qould take out there anger on britain and us becuase of what we are doing in india thats the reality of life
  • Mr. Cock-burn means the Al C.I.A-Duh the leader of Taliban
  • thomasaikenhead
    "Their leaders openly comment that the US would not have sacked two of its commanders-in-chief in Afghanistan in less than a year if they thought they were pursuing a successful strategy." This is true, the US and its allies are LOSING the war, just as the Soviet Union did a few decades ago. Yet again, the Us has found itself without a genuine strategy, let alone any tactics, as it attempts to support a puppet government against a popular movement fighting a guerilla war. How many times have we all seen that film\movie? -Cuba and the Batista regime -Vietnam and the Minh regime as so on. Talking to the Taliban is just diplomacy, if you you cannot win by fighting, you have to talk. The only topic is how to handle the defeat of the US, ie either a structured retreat or a repeat of the chaos of the Vietnam exit in 1975. The latter will inflict massive damage to the US military and the image of the US on a global scale. Once more a bunch of local 'ragheads' or 'sand niggers' armed with small arms will defeat the greatest military power in the world!
  • You, like the idiot Suresh, blab about the actions of desperate individuals who would kill any and all to make a point. Rajiv Ghandi - now a very much dead former PM of India, was killed by a Hindu woman suicide bomber, Thenmozhi Rajaratnam. His mother Indra Ghandi was assassinated by a Sikh, Beant Singh. Mathama Ghandi himself was assassinated by a Hindu, Nathuram Godse. Australian missionary Graham Staines and his two sons were burnt alive by Hindu mobs and to date there are still numerous incidents each year when such Hindu mobs still rampage through Muslim or Dalit villages killing and raping their helpless victims. Hitler was a devoted Christian he helped coin the word - Holocaust do I need to elaborate what he did? David Koresh, through his insane version of Christianity, helped put Waco, Texas on the map. Christian America, was the first country in the world to use nuclear weapons on another country, specifically targeting its civilians - how Christian of them? Earlier Christian Europeans came to the Americas bringing with them diseases, committed genocide of and literally wiped out native South Americans, and then later conducted a brutal campaign of genocide yet again to eliminate the red man and steal his land, a generation later then enslaved the black man whom he would kidnap from Africa and ship them to the 'New World' in chains packed like sardines in ships where they would die of disease and starvation - lets see what part of the bible called for that? Hmm! rather which one of the hundreds of versions? Shall I even bother to mention Christian America's very Christian campaigns in Vietnam, Panama, N. Korea - why bother its all falling on deaf ears anyway. Then we have the wonderful Jewish state of Apartheid Israel and its full blown racist policies against the Arabs its creation of the largest concentration camp known to man - Gaza, its penchant to frequently invade and bomb and kill Lebanese and Syrian civilians with impunity with the full backing and support of a Christian US. Of course then there is the nation of very right Christians who started the original Crusades - the French, who were famous for their butchery in the Middle East and then later in Indochina, Africa and Algeria. Then having learnt the lessons of the past so well, Christians of Serbia, supported by the Christian nations of France and Greece, then set about committing yet another Holocaust, this time that of Muslims of Bosnia and Albania, all with impunity under the nose, indeed with the complicity of a man who could have stopped all this - the very Christian Boutros Boutros Ghalii - the UN Secretary-General, who also stood idly by as the Hutus massacred the Tutsis in Rawanda. Then you have another apartheid state, a/k/a self-proclaimed "largest democracy in the world" - India, where Muslims, lower caste Hindus and Dalits are treated worse than dogs. A country where Hindus are free to kill, rape and murder as long as the victims are not Hindus - especially higher caste Hindus, all happily living under a system where the state legally sanctions criminal acts against minorities. Shall I go on? No I think we have had our fill of of all other religions and your bullshit. Either learn about Islam unfettered by politics, racism, what the media dictates to you and free of Christian elitist bias or else bugger off.
  • mp02
    I just ignored that idiot who was glorifying his "religion of peace" islam and i was laughing like hell. Open your eyes and come out of your egg shell and see whats happeing to non-muslims in muslim countries. Other religions/countries are bound to fight back against atrocities this whole "Religion of peace" caused over centutries. No one is going to tolerate "My religion is great and yours is bullshit"
  • mp02
    Islamic killers have killed/rapes/tortured world over last 500 centuries who failed to accept islam as religion. Hence large muslim population in india, bangladesh and pakistan People WERE forced to accept to this religion. and NOW Its pay back time . You cant just keep forcing your stone aged religion along with barberic practices on others People are bound to fight back and i am glad THEY ARE
  • mp02
    Yes , Its in my mind. Its put in to my mind by people who shout allhuakbar (just Google meaning of this word) and simply denounce that everyone else's religion/gods/beliefs ARE nonsense. And If others dont accept islam then muslims will call them kafir and either force them to change their religion or kill/invade them. P.S. : I have personally experienced this. Hence my reply to "Afgant"
  • The conversation might go like this:

    NATO: It is wrong to use force of arms to impose your views on others, you need to be elected.
    TALIBAN: We can't get elected, even though we are right and the people are wrong, and we need the arms to fight against the oppression of the local warlords.
    NATO: So if the local warlords are disarmed, you would disarm.
    TALIBAN: Well no, we would then need the arms to keep thugs and criminals from oppressing the people - the central government can't or won't do that.
    NATO: how about a joint police force with the local warlords?
    TALIBAN: That would work for us: they can oppress the people economically and we can oppress them religiously.
    NATO: Uh, that wasn't what we had in mind. We thought the local people might elect their own leaders and the joint force would obey those leaders.
    TALIBAN: That wouldn't work for us: we'd rather fight, thanks. See, we can't take orders from people who have a different idea than ours about what religion is supposed to be. The people must behave as we tell them to. Oh, and did I mention that elections are actually an anathema. People should not choose who leads, that is the province of Allah.
    NATO: And Allah has chosen you to run things? What evidence do you have of that?
    TALIBAN: Evidence? We don't need evidence, we have faith.
    NATO: Ah, this talking is exactly going the way we'd hoped.
    TALIBAN: We're getting a bit bored too. Couldn't you just buzz off home and let us use our guns to force people to live the way we want them to?
  • mp02
    If and ENTITY was supporting and harboring terrorists , then millitary forces of INDIA was bound to ERASE THEM irrespective of "how holy the place of THEIR hiding was" i.e. golden temple

    I repeat , for democratic nations RELIGION/PLACE OF WORSHIP means NOTHING.

    For military forces, safety and welfare of 99.999% citizens is more important than 0.001% of terrorists and people who support terrorists. and This truth will hurt people who support terrorism and/or are terrorist sympathizers
  • mp02
    Most of the worlds population already knows what koran and islam is when they saw 9/11, 26/11 , london bombings and numerous other muslim sucide bombers shouting "allahu akbar" and exploding bombs all over world Its islam and muslims that need to learn about other religions
  • mp02
    truth does hurts. eh .....
  • Tarik_Toulan
    Mr. Cockburn,

    The US & NATO, through their stupid arrogance and inhuman atrocities, have almost blown all bridges of trust, not only between them and the Taliban, but also between them and the Afghani people in general, or rather between them and the whole Muslim world.
  • Chirisophus
    "We need to talk to the Taliban" Please tell me Mr Cockburn, who exactly are the Taliban? Who's their leader?
  • SID_VICIOUS
    I think there is plenty we could say to the taliban but saying sorry at the very least and getting down on our hands and knees and begging for forgiveness would be a start especially as we along with the americans have invaded there country they have never invaded one country in there entire history contrast that with us since world war 2 our western govemnets have murdred over 80 million people all over the world and we have the nerve and cheek to have a go at a group of people defending there homeland what hypocrites we are its no wonder the whole world hates us all we do is go meddle in other peoples business and try to brainwash the public by calling these freedonm fighters terrorists when its us who are the real terrorists and murderers!
  • SID_VICIOUS
    i think your forgeting there are plenty of murderers in the western world and terrorists who carry out there attacks and have done all over the world for years murdering over 80 milion people since world war 2 but we do it in the name of goverment thats how we justify haveing blood on our hands its the same with israel and the jewish people who have the palestine muslim people liveing in the biggest concentration camp in gaza its the same in india where the hindus mrdred and raped 3000 sikhs in 1984 at the golden temple the point is every group of people have the bad elemets if you go on you tube you willl see how many hindu and sikh terrorist there are in india and if we ever went and bombed india the number of sikh and hindu terrorists in britian who are homegrown would be huge they would attack us here and our soldiers in india thats why its better not to go invade and attack people
  • SID_VICIOUS
    LOL sally you make me laugh i love your spirit and vision fantastic
  • sally2801
    The time for business has come as war again fails. End aid to Africa, now a Chinese colony. Handsome Caucasian Afghans need aid to grow saffron and apricots, pomegranates and almonds, carrots and pistachios. Let them farm horses and goats, ducks and sheep. Open our markets for their carpets and gemstones. Recruit them for cricket and football instead of paying millions to Africans. These will bring peace.
  • Sally I am bemused and confused.".Handsome Caucasian Afghans.." eh?
  • NATO: It is wrong to use force of arms to impose your views on others, you need to be elected. Taliban: You mean like Karzai and the Northern alliance? Okay we can do that. Bye now :D What is it that you like so much about the Northern Alliance? Is it their ability to rape a pillage and not get noticed in the western press? Do you think they will respect the will of the people? If so which planet do you come from?
  • You really are talking through your backside
  • Conversation 2 NATO: Okay, guys, it is clear that we are not winning here. The Afghan government is too corrupt and powerless to provide the people with anything resembling a democracy and the local warlords are not on our side ? or your side ? just their own side. Taliban: That?s about right. We?d add that neither the central government nor the local warlords will make people live the way we want them to live, so we will keep fighting until we are dead or in control. NATO: Let?s leave that aside for the minute. Our problem is that we have invested a bunch of money and lives in trying to bring democracy to Afghanistan and we will loose tremendous face if we just run away. Secondly, you guys allow Al Qaeda and their ilk to operate in the areas you control and, as they want to blow us up and bring us down, we don?t like that. Taliban: That is tough, but It?s not our job to save your face and AL Qaeda provides us funds and is happy for us to force the people to live the way we want them to, so they are welcome and whatever they want to do with you is their business. NATO: But you would like the fighting to stop and fewer of your troops being killed? Taliban: Well, it would be nice, but we aren?t all that fussed. The fighting builds morale amongst the young men we recruit and makes them strong enough to keep women in their proper place. Every time you guys make a mistake and kill a civilian or two, we get more recruits ? so fighting your soldiers is actually good for us. NATO: But you guys deliberately target civilians. You blow up innocent faithful Muslims in markets, including women and children, as a matter of policy. Taliban: Well you can?t make an omelette without breaking eggs and most of those ?faithful Muslims? don?t practice Islam the way we want them to. Besides, when we kill civilians there is no media outrage as there is when NATO troops do it. We just get a straight-forward story about a suicide bombing by ?insurgents.? NATO: Yeah, why is that? And why are there never any stories about the civilians you kill or interviews with their families? Taliban: Hey, they?re your media. How should we know? NATO: Okay, let?s leave that aside too. What?s it going to take for you folks to come into coalition with the government and committing to following majority rule. Taliban: Hell freezing over? NATO: Are there no compromises you are prepared to make? Taliban: Well, we?d be willing to join the government providing that there is strict Sharia law with Taliban mullahs in charge of all the courts and Taliban members in charge of all military and police, who have to dress and behave in accordance with our idea of what is proper. Given that, we can work out our own details about women?s education, driving licenses, men?s facial hair, who can grow and sell opium to whom ? things like that. NATO: If we gave you all that, would you restrict Al Qaeda. Taliban: In a New York minute, but we make no promises about any groups called by a different name. As long as they support us, what they do about you is their business.
  • You mean just as the grand ape, George "f'in" Bush was elected - by people of the faith?
  • johnthebean
    The Taliban government were aware that a semi-autonomous grouping (AQ) were operating in their state. For whatever reason, they allowed this to continue, even though they would have been aware that AQ were planning, training, and executing attacks against US interests. Therefore, by not dealing with AQ themselves, the Talib handed the US an excuse to intervene.
  • We need to talk to the Taliban'
  • .....I have personally experienced this..." You are such a stupid bold faced liar that you are now tragically funny. Whatever happened - if its even true, I hope someone beats the daylights out you again.
  • "...Personally experienced this..." ??? You are such a fu*^#g bold faced liar -its actually amusing. What happened? Someone kicked the living shit out of you for making racist remarks? If that happened then well and good. I hope you get trashed soundly again.
  • I am sure when some good fellow kicks you with his steel boots in your bollocks he won't be shouting anything religious you racist little worm. Who is asking you to change you creep. You are fine with you vile prejudice and the little ugly toad you are.
  • Well I'm not aware of any warrants being issued to the Taliban after the USS Cole, but I don't know one way or the other and if it's true then you would have point regarding being sceptical about any return. As for the "some" of the bombers that were in afghanistan, didn't they train/fight in Bosnia beforehand. Not to mention they learned to fly in the USA which was kind of crutial to the plan. Btw I'm not having a go at you, you seem like a reasonable person, I just don't get your point. They had to do something doesn't mean anything to me. Do what exactly?
  • You are just another racist little loon. The only people who are trying to dominate the world as is evident from facts around you are those espousing Christianity. Unless you are blind and retarded you would see that.
  • johnthebean
    The legal route should have been pursued. However, as far as I'm aware, overtures of this nature were made to the Taliban government after the bombing of the African embassies and the USS Cole. The Taliban were not willing to 'play ball'. So sadly for the majority of ordinary Afghan families they were left stuck between a rock (US) and a hard place (Taliban).
  • And for the third time I'm saying, if they didn't follow the leagl route first and issues extradition warrents, then what the were the Taliban supposed to do?
  • Excellent article as always Mr. Cockburn, but time for talks is over - its no longer desired and would be of no use for Afghans at this stage. Besides, the US & NATO have reneged on all previous agreements and understandings with the Taliban as time and time again US and NATO thugs have broken past promises and orchestrated a daily orgy of death and destruction as in their frustration not a day goes by when they have not massacred civilians with their guns and bombs. With such a backdrop, any talks with the US/NATO would be absurd. Yes white man speaks, as he has always, with a forked tongue. No, the US & NATO came to Afghanistan as crusaders and have thus far shown themselves through their savagery, nothing more than those medieval butchers. Force must be met with force and to fight oppression is any man's duty who chafes to live under slavery and foreign domination. The fight must go on.
  • johnthebean
    If you look again at my original post, and concentrate really hard, you'll see I said "didn't necessarily have to invade and occupy". And for the third time I'm pointing out that the Taliban were giving sanctuary to AQ so some action of some sort (possibly not military) had to be taken. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your world view.
  • BTW what about the extradition warrants?
    You didn't go there.
  • Sorry I didn't mean the word you, in the personal sense, I didn't expect you to be returning to cheering crowds, I meant the people prosecuting the war.
  • johnthebean
    Sorry there buddy, I didn't kill anyone and I'm not happy about any "blood score". I'm telling you that some of the 911 people were trained in Afghanistan where AQ were being given sanctuary. Fact. I'm not saying this warrants killing innocent Afghani people, though something had to be done.
  • Tarik_Toulan
    Patrick Cockburn: 'We need to talk to the Taliban' ----------------------------------------------- A good idea, but unfortunately cannot be implemented, simply because the Taliban do not trust the US & NATO. The Taliban are very well aware that the US & NATO would only agree to talks when they are in a corner, otherwise would go on to kill endlessly - which is just the truth.
  • Well as far as I know, no extradition warrents with evidence were ever served. The US destroyed the only paharmaceutical factory in Sudan causing thousands and thousands of deaths of sick people, mostly children. So can they have Bill Clinton without a warrent? Not one of the twin tower people were from, or trained in Afghanistan they came from and trained in, a buddy country, remember? They invaded the wrong place if they were looking for revenge, which is all it was, bloody minded revenge, just like some tribal law we never knew we still had on the books. Anyway you have killed enough to say you got revenge so be happy with your blood score and go home to the cheering crowds for a revenge well done. BTW OBL is not in Afghnaistan so what are you going to do about that?
  • SID_VICIOUS
    mate nobody really cares about the propaganda and spin surrounding afghanistan and the al-qaeeda this is all drivel to suit the agenda as for the 9/11 7/7 and 21/11 its sad that anybody had to lose there life but its a drop in the ocen what happend in terms of the global picture and history a few people died at these places terible it may be but when you contrast we and america have murdred over 80 million people in the the name of our goverments by invadeing foreign lands it puts everything in perspective but nobody likes to admit what we have done we just like to sweep it under the carpet
  • SID_VICIOUS
    Mate you forgot to mention 7/7 along with 9/11 and 26/11 its a shame that people had to die but the reality is all these deaths combined is a drop in the ocean when you look at what we and the americans have done in going and invadeing other countries and murdering since world war 2 over 80 million people have been murdred thats the harsh truth if you look at india and how the hindus murdred over 3000 in the golden temple nobody did anything in britain or america even though what happend was worst than 9/11 thats the sad reality we pick and chose what suits us while sikhs were getting burned alive and there wifes and sisters were being raped by hindus
  • "muslim will conquer world" I don't recall him/her ever saying that. It might only be in your mind.
  • why are we fighting a community on their turf again?
  • In a fray there will always be loons. You must understand in this melee all sorts of ideologies are being thrown in for good measure by a number of hitherto known and unknown entities and their views are not specifically that of the conservative Talibs. Even amongst the Taliban there are divisions with one seeking to structure their war on clean and strict interpretation of Islamic rules of engagement while others who feels pragmatism and honour be hanged as any thing goes in this brutal war against the crusaders, for now and when they are gone - for domination within the factions. By demonstrating their complete disregard for any human life they are sending a chilling message to other groups of things to come and to establish the fact that the most brutal will survive. When the Crusaders have exited, another war is bound to follow amongst these very ideologues. That sadly has been the history of Afghanistan. If we are not fighting off invaders we are busy killing each other. The Taliban put an end to this madness after the inglorious departure of the Soviets. They were not perfect, but they certainly were a stabilising force and brought security, order, peace and justice to the country when the second round of bloodshed followed, where erstwhile friends and brothers in arms, were now keen to kill off the other, mostly for tribal superiority and to settle ancient family and tribal scores. The place is wild and mad. No one can control Afghans but Afghans themselves and he who wields the most power in arms and numbers and has the support of the Afghan public at large - wins. The Taliban had popular support because they rose to power on the platform dear to every ordinary Afghan's heart - Islam, in its simplest form which of course chokes many in the West who would rather see Afghanistan turned into something akin to a docile Japan or the Philippines - a ready receptacle for globalisation where they can sell yet more KFC chicken, McDonald burgers and bloody Starbucks coffee.
  • Your understanding of the Taliban is typically Western, gleaned from the daily mantra of the usual rot published and shown by Western media. You make the mistake of applying your pseudo-western culture, which you assume to be better and perhaps which works for you, to Afghanistan. It is all very well to sit here thousands of miles away and pontificate, try living in an Afghan village for a week and you will see how wrong your high fluted ideas really are. If you had lived through the madness that Afghanistan became after the Soviets departed and the change the Talibs brought you would understand. But you don't and never will.
  • johnthebean
    There was a reason for taking action against Afghanistan originally. Remember the whole Al-Qaeda 911 thing? AQ were being given sanctuary on Afghan soil. The US/UK probably went the wrong way about it though. They didn't necessarily have to invade and occupy. And the US is paying a price for previously being in cahoots with the ISI.
  • mp02
    Your understanding of world is typically 5th century B.C. Move on from your typical "muslim will conquer world" mindset
  • Rettam_1taht
    Afghant, Whoare the suicide bombers? The majority of violence in Afghanistan and Pakistan and Iraq is caused by fellow Muslims commiting the horrible crime of suicide bombing.
  • Ref. "Patrick Coburn: 'We need to talk to the Taliban' ". You could talk with those who have some rational mind, thining or actions. Talibans are blind followers without any critical thinking or human values who blidnly follow Koran. Kafirs' table talk with them cannot help the kafirs. Brutes only could undersand brute force. Koran does not give freeom of thought or choice. They are commited to Koran.
  • I wonder what Freud would think.
  • Rettam_1taht
    What will we talk to the Taliban about? How many women will be stoned? How many innocent people will be hanged for opposing them? The treatment of women? Girls being allowed to go to school? The Taliban are a blight on humanity. They are living in the 13th century....a macho-pathetic and thoroughly despicable outfit. The best way to defeat the Taliban is with books....spread books throughout the country and get everyone reading....the Taliban would be quaking.
  • gram64
    Good analysis.
  • TommyTCG
    Long speech Patrick, BUT..what have the Taliban got to do with 911? In any case, few believe the conspiracy theory that an Arab in a cave in Afghan. shut down the half trillion dollar US air defences with his laptop. Who then had his L pilots, (none of whom were on ANY passenger list, (CNN) and some of whom were reported still alive after the event, (BBC)), cause a free fall of 3 buildings, includong unstruck WTC7. www.911truth.org.
  • Nothing wrong with talking - might help. Just try not to roll on your back and put your paws in the air.
  • they are human beings at the end of the day and afghanistan is their nation

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