World

7° London Hi 11°C / Lo 4°C

War in Afghanistan: So, just what are we fighting for?

As the toll of British military personnel exceeds the number killed in Iraq, Raymond Whitaker asks what our strategy is – and whether we can win

The number of British troops killed in Afghanistan jumped to 184 following the announcement on Friday of eight deaths within 24 hours, and has now surpassed the toll of 179 in Iraq.

Why have losses mounted so sharply?

Partly because we and the 4,000 US marines recently sent to Helmand Province are actively seeking out the enemy, in an offensive aimed not only at allowing next month's elections to take place, but at pushing the Taliban permanently out of the densely populated strip along the Helmand river. New rules curbing air strikes, in an effort to reduce loss of support caused by civilian casualties, may also put ground forces at greater risk. But the vast majority of British deaths and injuries are caused not by fighting but by "improvised explosive devices" planted under dirt roads, or in walls and ditches. Last month there were a record 736 IED "incidents".

Is the troops' equipment at fault?

Complaints about personal kit, such as boots and body armour, have largely been dealt with. But many argue that lightly armoured vehicles such as the Snatch Land Rover and the Viking should have been replaced long ago with heavier models. Some say they still have a role, and that mobility and tactics are also important in preventing deaths. Last week Lord Guthrie, former chief of the defence staff, blamed Gordon Brown's parsimony as chancellor for what many senior officers see as a critical shortage: the lack of heavy-lift helicopters such as the Chinook, vital for moving troops and equipment quickly.

Is this offensive succeeding?

Hard to tell. Officers say heavy casualties have been inflicted on the Taliban, but the Ministry of Defence has a history of announcing the start of boldly named operations, often in the same small area of Helmand, with nothing heard later about results. The most dangerous district, Sangin, which saw five more British deaths on Friday, has repeatedly been declared free of insurgents, only for them to seep back later – a process the troops call "mowing the grass". The test of the current operation will not be how many Taliban fighters have been killed, but whether the arrival of US reinforcements in Helmand will allow Nato troops to keep control of the ground they have seized, win the confidence of locals and enable reconstruction and development to take place – the "clear, hold and build" strategy.

Isn't this what British forces have been trying to do for three and a half years?

Yes, but the initial force of 3,300 was far too small and completely unprepared for what awaited them, with the then Defence Secretary, John Reid, blithely hoping they could complete their mission "without firing a shot". They have fired four million since then, and next to no development has taken place, although that might change if the Kajaki dam ever begins to produce hydro-electricity. Sir Jeremy Greenstock, Britain's former ambassador to the UN and Iraq, says the army has been "holding a wall up" in Helmand, but "no one has come along to build a buttress" of development, adding that "people don't understand" what British troops in Helmand have to do with creating stability.

With the Americans, there are now more than 12,000 troops in Helmand. Is that enough?

That remains to be seen. It would take 100,000 troops to pacify every area of Afghanistan's largest province. One day the Afghan army might be able to provide those numbers, but training being stepped up only now. Instead of reaching a total of 134,000 in five years, the deadline has been moved forward to 2011, and the Pentagon is talking about an Afghan army twice as large. Either way, there will be a shortage of Afghan troops for several years, and President Barack Obama is already resisting calls from US commanders for a much bigger reinforcement than the 10,000 troops he has already agreed to, which will bring the American force to 68,000 this year.

But we keep being told that the "solution" in Afghanistan is not exclusively, or even mainly, military.

It is true that away from the south and east development is taking place in many areas – millions of girls are going to school, for example. But President Hamid Karzai's government, which seems certain to win another term on 20 August, is widely seen as ineffectual and corrupt. Its authority has suffered from the Bush administration's reluctance to engage in "nation building", and its willingness in 2001 to do deals with vicious warlords, who remain entrenched to this day, to oust al-Qa'ida and the Taliban. Only now is the US focusing on the development side of the equation, but these efforts are easily disrupted by the Taliban. The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington think-tank, recently published a paper arguing that instead of focusing on Helmand and neighbouring Kandahar province, Nato should take urgent action "to stop and reverse the Taliban's progress in the north, while reinforcing and safeguarding the Kabul region, or risk losing control of the entire country".

We kicked out al-Qa'ida in 2001, and it is now based in Pakistan, from where it is undermining other states, such as Somalia. What has fighting the Taliban got to do with what Gordon Brown calls "the fight against terrorism"?

One answer might be that if Afghanistan fell to a resurgent Taliban, al-Qa'ida would return as well, and nuclear-armed Pakistan would be far more vulnerable as a result. If the extremists gained control there, it would become the world's most dangerous state. Nato forces cannot tackle al-Qa'ida directly across the border in Pakistan, but their presence puts pressure on Islamabad to do so, though the Pakistanis have still done little to disrupt the Taliban leadership operating more or less openly from the city of Quetta. But it would be wrong to portray the mission in Afghanistan as being purely to keep terrorism from our shores. The fact is that we owe the Afghans: first we poured in weapons and money to oust the Soviet invaders in the 1980s, then neglected the country, allowing the Taliban and al-Qa'ida to move in. After 2001 we followed George Bush to Iraq, with the inevitable result that the Taliban came back in Afghanistan.

So what is our strategy? What, in short, are our troops fighting for?

Bob Ainsworth, the new Defence Secretary (the fourth in three years), says there is "no end date, only an end state", in which the Afghans can take full responsibility for their security and governance. There is little clarity on how this is going to be achieved. Without a massive effort to build up the Afghan state, which is beset by problems on every side, from the drugs trade to the almost total absence of police and administrators in many areas, the risk is that Britain and the US could end up in a vicious circle of "no development without stability, no stability without development", with our forces caught in the middle. Some, including former Brigadier Ed Butler, who commanded the first British troops to arrive in Helmand, believe that "given the reality of the environment... and the tenacity of the Taliban, we should probably be redefining what success looks like", with lower expectations among the international community as well as the Afghans. Rather than the eradication of corruption and universal female education in Afghanistan, said Malcolm Chalmers, a former Foreign Office special adviser now with the Royal United Services Institute, "most people now define success more in terms of an Afghan state secure enough to prevent al-Qa'ida re-establishing a base there. But even that involves creating a fairly strong state."

Should we just declare victory and bring our troops home?

"We could retreat to a policy of leaving the Afghans to sort themselves out," says Professor Chalmers, "and if al-Qa'ida tried to set up bases, we would bomb them from drones, as we do in Pakistan, It could come to that." But that would not only betray most Afghans, who still support the foreign presence, it would let down our most important ally, America, where President Obama is at last pursuing the policies most allies have been urging for years. And what would we say to the families and friends of the British soldiers killed in the conflict? Kelly Gore, who lost her partner, Lance Sergeant Tobie Fasfous, in April, said last week: "The only thing keeping me going is that something good will come out of all of this, that Afghanistan will get back on its feet, will drive the Taliban away and the people out there can live a normal life eventually. Unless that happens, I do think these lads have died in vain."

Strategic aims: how Britain is faring in Afghanistan

Stop terrorist plans for attacks on the UK

* MoD's main stated aims include: "Deny al-Qa'ida its Afghan base".

* Terrorist bunkers bombed out, training camps disrupted.

* Operations did not prevent attacks on London transport network.

* Fear plotting continues among terrorists in Pakistan and fghanistan.

Verdict: Failure

Avoid a bloody war

* Former defence secretary John Reid said he hoped British forces would leave without "a single shot being fired".

* More than four million bullets fired by the British Army in a year, as conflict intensified.

* More soldiers have died there, 184 in all, than in Iraq.

Verdict: Failure

Catch Osama Bin Laden

* Post 9/11, al-Qa'ida's most recognisable figure became world's most wanted man.

* Afghanistan refused to extradite him before he went into hiding.

* His whereabouts unknown, remains an inspiration to insurgents.

Verdict: Failure

End Taliban rule in Afghanistan

* Taliban rule included laws against educating women and activities such as watching TV. Al-Qa'ida operatives were provided with shelter.

* Military intervention ended its control in 2001.

* Taliban still an insurgent force with undeterred remnants proving a dangerous enemy.

Verdict: Pass

Bring democracy to Afghanistan

* First elections run solely by the Afghan government take place next month.

* Provincial polls took place after Taliban's fall.

* Elections generate waves of violent protests.

* Nato warned the new government "remains limited" and prone to corruption.

Verdict: Pass

Keep the region stable

* Armed forces want to contain targets to Afghanistan.

* Taliban insurgents crossed borders, leading to bloody battle with Pakistan army in Swat Valley, with tens of thousands fleeing their homes.

Verdict: Failure

Make the streets safe

* Troops completed missions to clear unexploded mines.

* Soldiers gain increasing trust of civilians.

* Nato recently warned recently the number of civilian deaths "remains a serious concern".

* More than 2,000 Afghan civilians died last year in insurgent attacks.

Verdict: Failure

Improve life for Afghanis

* British money repaired dams and provided irrigation.

* Massive increase in children going to school, including large numbers of girls for the first time.

* Average life expectancy is 44, while disease and poverty are widespread.

* Large swathes of the country are unconnected to safe water supplies.

Verdict: More work needed

Stop the drug trade

* Concentrated battle against poppy field drug barons who supply world's heroin market from Afghanistan.

* US experts fear blowing up poppy crops backfired, driving desperate farmers to sympathise with insurgent forces.

* Farmers struggling with alternative crops in the dry conditions.

Verdict: Failure

Preserve oil/gas access

* Afghanistan traditionally a perfect route for exporting oil and gas to Western countries.

* US set up deals with Afghanistan's neighbours to ensure smoother exports.

* Agreements criticised for being made with countries having poor human rights records.

Verdict: Pass

Richard Osley

Post a Comment

View all comments that have been posted about this article.

Offensive or abusive comments will be removed and your IP logged and may be used to prevent further submission. In submitting a comment to the site, you agree to be bound by the Independent Minds Terms of Service.

Comments

War in Afghanistan: So, just what are we fighting for?
[info]ozziepaul wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 12:39 am (UTC)
Here is one way to defeat the Taliban. Cut off their huge profits from heroin. If, throughout the Western world, heroin use was decriminalised and its provision made a government monopoly via proper treatment programmes, the value of heroin on the streets would collapse and with it the huge drug profits of the Taliban. Furthermore Afgani farmers would no longer have any reason the grow poppies in preference to more beneficial crops.

As it is, we (the G8 world) are actually funding the Taliban to kill our troops. How sensible is that?
Re: War in Afghanistan: So, just what are we fighting for?
[info]shakras wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:23 am (UTC)
Re: War in Afghanistan: So, just what are we fighting for?
[info]mumof3york wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:36 am (UTC)
I think you make a very valid point here. In Portugal, the use (but not the selling) of heroin has been decriminalised and its having a very positive effect. Users are accepting help and there has been no predicted increase in heroin use.

I used to be very much against decriminalising heroin, but have been changing my mind lately and think there are great benefits for all in dragging this nasty drug out of the shadows.

The drug production in Afghanistan is directly a result of heroin being illegal.
[info]freedommonger wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:16 am (UTC)
[Afghanistan traditionally a perfect route for exporting oil and gas to Western countries.]

No it isn't. Afghanistan is a perfect route for exporting oil and gas to EASTERN countries like Pakistan, India and perhaps China.

Gas and oil from the Caspian is exported WEST via pipelines like the proposed Nabucco gas pipeline and the existing oil pipeline from Azerbaijan to Turkey.

Why is it that basic facts, ones that can be seen to be wrong by a simple understanding of geography, so often elude journalists and people as soon as oil and gas in mentioned?

THERE IS NO OIL AND GAS EXCUSE TO BE HAD IN AFGHANISTAN

The same sort of excuse, they are only in it for the oil, was "used" to promote suffering and death in Iraq. At least there it was possible to "steal" or "control" (????) Iraqi's oil. Only "problem" for those that screamed witch was that.... errr.... the US can be seen to have stolen and less so controlled any oil or gas whatsoever. Witch hunting, so much promise and excitement, then such shame. Why do you all do it? Look at an atlas and stop writing drivel like

[Afghanistan traditionally a perfect route for exporting oil and gas to Western countries.]

NO IT IS NOT.

p.s. Exporting oil and gas anywhere is good as it earns the producers and the transit countries income and goodness knows Afghan needs income. Why is it always seen as a bad thing when oil companies shares make normal returns and their return on capital is similarly mediocre. Only oil price volatility seems to offer a shallow and temporary factual "basis" for thinking oil companies make excessive profits. Isn't this obvious? Otherwise we could all clean up buying oil comp shares.
Re: 'tis - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:56 am (UTC) Expand
more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:32 am (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: more fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 'tis - [info]tominlondon - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 01:53 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 'tis - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 'tis - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:32 pm (UTC) Expand
What are we fighting for?
[info]d_magee wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 07:44 am (UTC)
Marco Level :
Surround Iran with US bases - it does have a huge amount of cheap oil in non friendly hands. -This also helps protect Israel ( cf, Iraq)
Run a pipeline for gas and oil thru Afghanistan from ex USSR republics to prevent control by Russia.( remember Unicol & G,W, Bush, Cheney et al?)
Help stop NATO collapsing after its remit no longer has any relevance or legitimacy.
Keep a eye on Pakistan in case North West Frontier region becomes an Islamic state - and prevent it..

Micro Level:
Keep UK under US military tutelage.
Allow UK to develop a surveillance society.
Prevent the embarrassment of the political and military elite by allowing UK troops to withdraw "with honor" - if not victory.

Is all this worth our young men dying for?
Re: What are we fighting for?
[info]freedommonger wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 08:26 am (UTC)
human level - we fight as the vast majority of Afghans want us to defend them from the Taliban they rightly fear and loathe.

Not very surprised this didn't register on your world view, you are looking at your reflection by mistake, not the real world.

Oh, and we went to Afghanistan to remove a regime that sheltered terrorists who flew a few planes into buildings killing 3000 of all races and religions. Remember?

As for your oily mental dysfunction, the west buys its oil at inflated cartel prices from a long list of willing sellers. If the US wanted to seize or control oil it would. It observably does not. 80% + pf the worlds known oil reserves are in fact controlled by state owned resource nationalist oil companies and only 20% by the evil big oil who so many people "think" are the dark forces shaping our world.

They are not

International oil companies produce more wealth at lower cost than state oil disasters but because they also themselves make a profit peoples minds seem to shut down and all they see is an"unjustified profit"

If big oil companies did make unjustifiable profits these would be seen in their medium term share price and return on the capital they employ. Only in the real world (Yahoo finance will show you in 60 seconds) the real world oil companies make normal returns. Its only because of volatile oil prices that individual years of seemingly excessive profits can be found. Sort of "dont look around the eyes, look into the eyes. Your under!"

Tell me then, if our soldiers are out there fighting to keep the Afghans from falling under the totalitarianism of the Taliban and thus to stop Afghanistan again becoming a base for AQ to attack the west, is this worth it?

This is the real question, not the fantasy teenage excuses of imaginary theft. Why not face it. There is a real debate to be had on the reality of this situation.
fallacious nonsense - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:26 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fallacious nonsense - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: fallacious nonsense - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]lkdamo - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]chanch5 - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:53 am (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 06:47 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 07:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 07:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]freedommonger - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What are we fighting for? - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Defeatist
[info]adam_z wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 08:11 am (UTC)
What defeatist bulls**t is this? We are fighting for obvious reasons and we are part of Nato. We must support our brave troops against the treacherous defeatists within and the terrorists without!
Yes dear, we must
[info]shakras wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:11 am (UTC)
suppport aggressive corporate welfare wars of the kind that the Nuremberg defendants were hanged for
Re: Defeatist - British troops just dying for Oil & Gas
[info]susanlevi wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:57 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately NATO has become the equivalent of the foot soldiers of a 21st century East India Company - trying to carve out a backdoor Oil & Gas pipeline corridor from the Central Asian O&G basins through Western Afghanistan and Baluchistan Province of Pakistan to the Indian Ocean port of Gwadar.... AF-Pak - since we are unable to remove a fiercly indpendent Iranian regime which just happens to sit on the ideal pipeline corridor ... interesting to see how coalition bases are located where the proposed pipeline gas compression stations would need to go - and where many development projects are being funded - no surprises then that Helmand isimportant to the pipeline corridor - coincidence ? I think not.

Contextual analysis :

http://original.antiwar.com/engelhardt/2009/05/12/pipelineistan-goes-af-pak/

There is no glory, just a dirty war in which professional soldiers will continue to kill and be killed - all dying for Oil and Gas...
Silly question
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:06 am (UTC)
not only "Silly" but also
[info]shakras wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:12 am (UTC)
intentionally misleading
Re: not only "Silly" but also - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: not only "Silly" but also - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:37 am (UTC) Expand
Politicians Lies and Nonsense
[info]neil639 wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC)
If we listen to our corrupt and lying politicians the reasons our forces invaded a sovereign country change as time goes by. They are now reduced to telling us that it is to make Britain's streets safer. This is utter nonsense. Never since the war in Vietnam have politicians told so many lies or talked such utter nonsense. Never mind asking what they are doing there, they should never have invaded the country in the first place. Britain has not been a world power since 1945, and it is not our place to decide who runs other sovereign countries.
Democracy verdict: pass?
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 11:52 am (UTC)
Yet again inconsistency, the Independnt reckons Afghanistan is a Democracy and Iran is not.
I was wondering if the Independent could tell us the name of the main opposition leader, or the name of his party for example. What are the policies of the opposition? Who cares anyway the president is going to be re-elected, untill the Americans find someone else, democracy my arse. If Democracy is a pass in Afghanistan then it must be a school for very slow learners. Shame on you for even suggesting such a thing.

The Saudi's elect what to have for dinner, does that them a democracy too?
"Democracy: Pass?"
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 12:57 pm (UTC)
You mean to say we're giving democracy a pass.

If turning Talibanistan into narco-warlordistan is "democracy" you need to get your head examined.
"Defeat the Taliban: Pass?"
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 01:24 pm (UTC)
You meant to say "Surrender to the Taliban: Pass" because that's exactly what NATO has been doing:
Game over, Obomber!
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 01:40 pm (UTC)
dead parrot
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 01:51 pm (UTC)
The way to hunt down and eliminate terrorists is to send in small groups of highly trained special forces. Not to massively invade entire countries on the off chance that at some point you might come across the people you're looking for.

If you do that, you'll encounter massive resistance, as the British are in Afghanistan, and you will achieve absolutely nothing. NOBODY has ever defeated the Afghans.

Or maybe it's just that the British arms industry is using Afghanistan to try out its products, which they hope to sell around the world. So far, though, they haven't been doing too well.

At bottom there's the British fantasy that Britain is still a world power with a great military. At some point the British will have to realise that Britain can no longer undertake massive international military operations. A bit of modesty would be a good thing.
Re: dead parrot
[info]shakras wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 02:40 pm (UTC)
I see you've swallowed the line about Afghan "terrorists" threatening (for some bizarre reason nobody had identified yet) the bankrupt banana republic of Britain.

About the training - it ain't to demo weapons or lesser kit, that's certain. The silver lining to certain elements is much more likely to be training to put down insurrection at home.
Re: dead parrot - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 02:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: dead parrot - [info]tominlondon - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: dead parrot - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: dead parrot - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Les
[info]les_quinn wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 03:58 pm (UTC)
The war on terror, in particular, the war currently being fought in Afghanistan is and will continue to be, a requirement for the long term future to protect the people of this country, Europe and the wider world from the use of terrorism.

The current, immediate problem is Islamic extremists, however I'm sure that the world will face just such a great threat from other quarters in the future as well, so for those who are for pulling our troops out, what would you do?

It's a difficult, impossible task leading a country, being a prime minister, and yes, it's great for many people to be critical of Gordon Brown, and to say they have better ideas, bolder ideas, bigger ideas of how to acheive peace, but do you really?

I don't think so, I doubt it, and I'm sure you are right, but I don't believe you.

We need this war in Afghanistan because someone has to make a stand against those who would, given the chance, destroy our way of life, our culture and history, and all that based upon fear and untold hatred.

You saw what the Iranians are capable of, so imagine that all over the muslim world; you couldn't imagine the level of torture, murder and violation of human rights if these terrorists win through.

The problem isn't and never has been Islam nor muslim people but extremism and that is what we have to face upto today, and that is what we have to tackle head on, and if I may say so, grab it by the throat and give it a right good shake.
Yes
[info]shakras wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 04:33 pm (UTC)
dear
Re: Yes dear - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 04:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes dear - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 04:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes dear - [info]cronyblatcher - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes dear - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Les
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 05:18 pm (UTC)
Just like all of south east asia became communist after the Vietnam war.
We need a war in Afghanistan like we need another hole in the head.
The problem is people like you, that can't imagine any other solution to problems other than violence.
Who's afraid of bogeyman man? Boo!!
Questionable Cause and Effect?
[info]wattyler wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:28 pm (UTC)
Gordon Brown raises the spectre of the 7/7 bombings in London as the reason for the War in Afghanistan. The war started on October 7, 2001, following the 11 September 2001 attacks in America.
The 7 July London bombings happened 4 years later, in 2005.

Doesn't the sequence of events suggest a different cause and effect, contradicting Gordon Brown's argument? If events outside Britain caused the 7/7 bombings, isn't it possible that Britain joining the US in Afghanistan increased the likelihood of 7/7?



Re: Questionable Cause and Effect?
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:41 pm (UTC)
Watt, you're absolutely right. The 7/7 London bombings came long after the attack on Afghanistan by the US/UK/others. And the 7/7 bombers had nothing to do with Afghanistan. Unless Afghanistan is in Yorkshire, which is where those attacks were planned.

Brown is lying.
"those attacks were planned in Yorkshire" - [info]shakras - Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 10:01 pm (UTC) Expand
The USA and UK are in Helmand for Opium, the Arms industry, and NWO
[info]wgft_news wrote:
Monday, 13 July 2009 at 03:44 pm (UTC)
The controllers of the USA and UK governments are in Afghanistan for Opium, profits for the Arms Industry, and for one-world (NWO) global conquest. This is old news. The question is: WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Wikipedia: 'Helmand is the world's largest opium-producing region, responsible for 42% of the world's total production.[4] This is more than the whole of Burma, which is the second largest producing nation after Afghanistan.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmand_Province

'Afghanistan still the largest producer of opium: UN report':
http://www.zeenews.com/news379280.html

"WAR IS A RACKET" by Major General Smedley Butler:
http://www.konformist.com/911/war-is-a-racket.htm

'The Biggest Business In The World: WAR':
http://worldgathering.net/world/business.html

Article Archive

Day In a Page

Sun | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat

Select date