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Alarm in Baltic as Kremlin seizes control of Soviet past

Medvedev bans the 'falsification of history to the detriment of Russia'

By Shaun Walker in Riga

Russia wants the Baltic states to remember its version of key historical events such as the 'liberation' of Latvia

KEYSTONE/GETTY IMAGES

Russia wants the Baltic states to remember its version of key historical events such as the 'liberation' of Latvia

In Russia it is not only the future that is unpredictable; often the past is equally in doubt. One minute Leon Trotsky was a hero of the Revolution, the father of the Red Army and a strong contender to succeed Lenin; the next minute he never existed. Until the late 1980s, the 1917 Revolution was the pinnacle of human achievement; suddenly in the 1990s it was seen as an utter failure.

And today again history in the region is turning into an ideological battlefield. When the Red Army poured into the Baltic states at the end of the Second World War, it liberated them from Nazi tyranny – but from the perspective of the subsequent decades of Soviet domination, was it liberation or merely another invasion?

The Russians, of course, have no doubt on the matter: for them it was an heroic national achievement. But for the states which less than two decades ago managed to crawl out from under the Soviet boot, things are not so simple. The Museum of the Occupation of Latvia, an imposing black box of a building in the heart of Riga, tells the story of Latvia's time inside the Soviet Union. The Soviet soldiers, glorified as heroes in Moscow, are portrayed as criminals and occupiers, no better than the Germans they defeated.

But now, slamming shut a stable door through which its former subject states long ago bolted, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered the creation of a body with the Orwellian title of the Commission to Counteract the Falsification of History to the Detriment of Russian Interests. A linked law is also likely to be passed that will outlaw the "rehabilitation of Nazism" on the territory of former Soviet republics.

Pressure to stop their much smaller neighbours telling recent history the way they see it has been building for some time. When authorities in Estonia removed a monument to Soviet soldiers from the centre of Tallinn two years ago, riots between police and ethnic Russian citizens of Estonia ensued, and the Kremlin made furious noises. With its new commission and law, Moscow is upping the stakes. Russia accuses the governments of Estonia and Latvia of glorifying partisan regiments which fought on the side of the Nazis.

In recent years, relations between Latvia and Russia have normalised in many spheres, but the Second World War is still a thorny issue. "The one issue which divides us is our interpretation of history," says Ojars Kalnins, director of the Latvian Institute, a think-tank linked to Latvia's Foreign Ministry. "Russia could demonstrate a lot to the world if it did what Germany did, and apologised for the actions of previous governments."

Apologising, however, is the last thing the Kremlin plans to do, and the new commission and law suggest that Russia is moving in the opposite direction, seeking to glorify the Soviet past and silence critics of Soviet communism.

The commission, say critics inside Russia, smacks of a Soviet attitude to history, and the most worrying aspect to be inferred from its bizarre title is that falsifying history in Russia's interests is quite acceptable.

Last week, a scandal erupted over an article written by a Russian military historian that was posted on the website of the Russian Defence Ministry, blaming Poland for starting the Second World War. The article absolved the Soviet Union from any role in contributing to the start of war, and instead blamed Poland for not acceding to "reasonable" demands from Nazi Germany. The paper was removed after an official complaint from Poland.

A key pillar of Vladimir Putin's eight-year presidency involved exhorting Russians to feel proud of their history, and he once said that foreign countries should never be able to make Russia feel guilty for its Soviet past. The public appears to agree. A recent survey by a leading Russian polling agency showed that 77 per cent of Russians consider the Red Army to have liberated eastern European countries and given them the chance to develop, while only 11 per cent felt that there was an occupation.

"Those trying to turn everything upside down and portray the Nazi liberator states as invaders have to suffer punishment," said Valery Ryazansky, a member of the pro-Kremlin United Russia party and one of the law's sponsors. The Russians remain determined to stem the tide of what they see as anti-Russian propaganda. "Such attempts are becoming more hostile, more evil, and more aggressive," said Mr Medvedev in his online video blog last month. "We must fight for the historical truth."

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Judge for yourself
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:21 am (UTC)
Latvians will tell you that there was a patriotic organisation called the "Latvian Legion" that fought against the USSR.

Here is the so-called "Latvian Legion" in training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SfZO87XZHQ&feature=PlayList&p=B6FC13911DACF5C3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64

Now who do you *think* that looks like? And remember, that clip has been put on YouTube by *Latvians* who see nothing questionable in its content.

Shaun Walker, you really are a disgrace.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]oszkowice wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 05:40 am (UTC)
You should be ashamed of being an apologist for mass murderer Stalin.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 06:37 am (UTC)
The camera doesn't lie.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]yurism wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 06:46 am (UTC)
In which way showing Latvian Waffen SS legion training is an apology for Stalin?
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]latvian12345678 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)
This is a Nazi propaganda movie.

Of course Latvians fought for germans against soviets, because latvians had to choose - soviet occupation or germans, who said that after the war latvia will be free country (of course that was a lie, but latvians didn`t know that).

Latvian legion fought for free latvia not nazi latvia. And that is the thing you arrogant and shallow commentator must keep in mind. Please read official history of Latvia written by Latvian historians or Norman Davies Europe, instead of searching for some unacademic video clips in youtube.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:40 pm (UTC)
Wrong, it's a film depicting Latvian members of the Waffen-SS during WW2. It is evasive and untruthful to call it "unacademic"... merely because you find it impossible to explain or excuse. Latvians were Nazi troops - this is a fact.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:50 pm (UTC)
And by the way, if you don't like this film, then don't complain to us... it was uploaded onto YouTube by your own Latvian nationalists, who are *proud* of having fought in the Waffen SS!!
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]dennis_mundo wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC)
Of course there were SS members from Latvia, as there were SS members from Hungary, France, Holland, Norway etc. There was an organisation in Britain at the time that were for the Nazis and were ready to help them organise an occupation regime should they have invaded Britain. That hardly does tell you anything about the attitude of the majority of a country. A Youtube clip certainly doesn't.
It's no surprise to know that some Latvians were pro Nazis.
That doesn't excuse a 40year occupation through the russians. Imagine the USA, which liberated Holland (nice, thanks a lot) would have stayed for another fourty years, prohibited the dutch language and culture and have the country ruled by a regime that was ruled by Washington. Of course the dutch would have regarded it as occupation!
And you know the dutch weren't by large pro Nazis. So if a video turns up that show a few dutch SS men, do you seraskier go and say that the US had only liberated Holland and they otherwise deserved to be surpressed for having had a few men joining the SS?
Leave the Latvians to see history as they perceive it. They must be right because it is the way they feel about it.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 05:47 pm (UTC)
Does it excuse the liquidisation of the jewish community in Riga by Latvian SS Commander Viktors Arajs and his "Latvian Legion" stormtroopers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Riga_synagogues

>> Leave the Latvians to see history as they perceive it <<

Holocaust denial is a very unpretty thing. But I guess in your airy-fairy the-russian-must-be-wrong-of-course-darling world, any old bollocks is preferable to confronting the UGLY FACTS.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]latvian12345678 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 09:34 am (UTC)


Latvian ex-president Vaira Vike Freiberga at the Holocaust forum in Stockholm in year 2000 admitted that Viktors Arajs killed jews and Latvians are very sorry. You cant`s say, that Latvians don`t speak of this history page and don`t regret them.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 06:27 pm (UTC)
dennis-mundo, the problem is that Latvians killed 50% of Latvian Jews effectively repeating some kind of local Holocaust in their country - that is why they are considered pro-nazi during WW2 - read link to Wikipedia provided by seraskier here in one of posts.Hardly you can accuse those Dutch you mentioned in the same. As for occupation by the Russians - it was like occupation of Bahamas by Great Britain - occupation was in place, albeit nobody suffer too much, many even didn't realise they were occupied. In 1970-s life in Poland was better then in Soviet Union proper (any Pole would attest it).
So can it be called occupation? I would say that Poland's dependency on Russia was the same as Bermudas or Bagamas (before independance) dependancy on Great Britain - My granny's sister merried a Pole in 1930-s while living in West Byellorussia (before it was annexed by USSR in 1939) - so I now have 9 second grade cousins in Poland (who are natural born Poles as you understand) - so I
know exactly what the level of life and social security was there in Poland in 1960-s and 1970-s - much better then in Russia, me and my sisters were even a bit envious and contemplated wether it were possible to moove to Poland (from Russia) - but it was impossible in Soviet times and later in 1980-s situation there deteriorated due to economic problems... So, using this word -"occupation" you mislead
readers of Independent...The same is true about "occupation" of other East European states by Russia.
In 1940-s and begining of 1950-s the regime was harsh and cruel - but the same it was in Russia itself - starting with Khrushchev condemnation of Stalin in 1956 and then through 1960-s, 1970-s and 1980-s - regime was benign, although stupid, dull and burocratic...communism couldn't provide for the same level of life as in the West and it was the matter of permanent envious feelings towards Western counterparts. Russians and East Europeans were equally irritated by Soviet leadership who could not
provide nor for political freedom nor for equal to Western Europe living standards, nor even for opportunities to travel abroad...That's it...But there was no "ocupation" in anyway comparable to what was German ocupation of Poland for example...Yes, after 1945 your life probably would have been better if you had been liberated by USA, but, you would be real miserable under German occupation, no comparison to that dull, stupid but WARM and convinient regime which was imposed on you (and on us, Russians) by Communist leadership of USSR (with the help of considerable part of your and our locals by the way) - ofcourse I mean period after Stalin (no question that Stalinist Soviet Union before 1956 was really horrible place to live and to be dependant on)...So, my dear friends, do not exagerate and stop play victims - nobody pays for it anymore.
Re: Judge for yourself
[info]dennis_mundo wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 04:10 pm (UTC)
I am not saying anything excuses the killing of Jews. Every country occupied by Nazis lost Jews, through german SS or SS members from those countries. But that doesn't excuse occupation. What means dependencies? Half of my country was ruled by a communist dictatorship that was dependend on Moscow. Only when the Russians under Gorbachev relaxed things people who demonstrated for freedom all 1989 in East Germany hoped that the Soviets would not bring out their tanks as they did in Berlin in 1953, Budapest 1954, Prague 1968. That finally allowed my country to reunify. The East Germans know that the Soviets held ruthless power over them. So do the Czechs, the Hungarians, The Polish and the Latvians.
This is not me diminishing crimes done by the Nazis and their helpers, but it is not about balancing crimes. Sure, the Nazi crimes were worse than what the Soviets did, but that still leaves Soviet occupation and repression of many peoples in East Europe as what it is. Occupation. An injustice. Be less emotional about it seaskier, and comparative reasoning by you rex123 does not change the feelings of Latvians. Discuss history, don't judge it so vehemently if you haven't experienced it.
The Soviet Union has never been held to account for its War Crimes
[info]oszkowice wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 05:39 am (UTC)
"was it liberation or merely another invasion?"

It was occupation by an imperial force. Mother Russia left its odious stain and smell right across the whole of Eastern Europe. What you should be asking yourself, is why more isn't made of the war crimes committed by the Georgian mass mudreder Stalin and how Churchill and roosevelt could retain any credibility after selling out Poland and Czechoslovakia to Russis (oh sorry the Soviet Union).

Just to remind you of some key points

The glorious Soviet Union signs a pact with Nazi Germany
A week later Nazi germany invades Poland
Two weeks later peace loving Soviet Union invades the eastern half of Poland
Soviet Union expels 2 million Poles to the gulags for the crime of being Polish
I million of those Poles survive
Soviet Union executes 25,000 Polish officers When their crimes are discovered the Soviets blame the Nazi's
When the Poles rise against the Nazis in warsaw the cowrdly Red Army sits on its collective ass across the other side of the Vistula
Stalin refuses the "Allies" the right to land planes in "liberated" Poland to support the Polish Home Army
After the war thousands of the Polish Home Army who fought the Nazi's while the Soviet Union was licking their boots "disappeared" or were tried in show trials
Re: The Soviet Union has never been held to account for its War Crimes
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC)
Why do you think that less Russians were sent to Gulag then Polish? Stalinist USSR was occupational force for Russia even more then for Poland. Contemporary Russian government are decendants of August 1991 which collapsed USSR and Communism with the hands of Russian people (many of whom died on the streets of Moscow under tanks on 19-20 August 1991) so that you in Poland as well may be free of communist yoke...don't you know that?... As for Stalinist occupation - repressions were equal for Polish and Russian - there was nothing specifically anti-Polish in Soviet occupation in contrast to Nazi occupation which was segregational and based on despise and enslaving of Slavs (not only Polish)....... Soviet regime was the same for Russians and for Poles - I would even say that in 1970-s life in Poland was better then in Russia...Also on personal level Russians have always been respectful for Poles in Soviet times (not so in 19 century - I would agree)...Frankly I also have never expirienced any hate from Poles towards me on personal level, although I was aware that we are hated, which always was a bitter feeling because how can I be personally responsible for Stalin and Nicolas the First and how can I apologise on behalf of them!?...Weird...
Re: The Soviet Union has never been held to account for its War Crimes
[info]irishinrussia wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:11 pm (UTC)
wtf? cowardly red army? I mean many insults can be launched at the USSR but cowardice isn't one of them. By that phrase alone oszkowice you betray yourself as a propagandist whose interest is not in exposing the real crimes of the USSR, which was nonetheless far more sinned against than sinning itself, but in exaggerating every detail in a fit of anti-russian nationalist hysteria
Re: The Soviet Union has never been held to account for its War Crimes
[info]rex123 wrote:
Saturday, 13 June 2009 at 09:38 pm (UTC)
oszkowice, you accuse USSR in using Hitler's aggression in Poland to grab another part of Poland but only ONE YEAR BEFORE THAT Poland did take part in Hitlers invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938 by annexing a small part of it, called Zaolzie in Polish, which was a territory in dispute between Poland and Czechoslovakia at that time. How about that? Why is that you are better then Stalin in this situation? - at least USSR wanted to save Byelorussians who had their republic in USSR from nazi and what was your motivation?...Looks like you were the first to start all this mess togeather with Hitler even before Molotov signed his Pact with Ribbentrop, right?
The pot calling the kettle black
[info]toroviolet wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 06:50 am (UTC)
Western civilisation's! ugly and bloody exploitation and dirty tricks has been etched deep in subconscious of the East. Yet, bloody and doomed capitalism still is looking for another global disaster for recovery. The United peoples of the planet will sink their enlightened collectivist rod deep into the heart of vampire.
Mind manipulators with all their spin doctors and paraphernalia of the West can't stand Putin's strength and Russia's coming back from cold.
A piece of propaganda
[info]yurism wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 07:03 am (UTC)
The article is incredibly biased. Glorifying the Waffen SS in the Baltic states is not a problem for Shaun Walker, it' s just a way to tell "recent history the way they see". A proposal to outlaw the rehabilitation of Nazism in Russia is of course nothing else but an attempt to "silence critics of Soviet communism". No facts are needed, a black-and-white narrative about nasty crypto-communist Russians and good brave Balts should persist beyond any doubt.
Kremlin seizes control
[info]falco8 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 07:31 am (UTC)
These guys would not know or recognise truth if it bit them on the bum! Ideologically speaking, "Let's make it up as we see fit," changes nothing. Stalin (the man and the concept) was a monster. Whatever Putin, Medvedev, and co are up to needs to be challenged, and publically repudiated. Don't let them present us with an alternative history. Lies are still lies, no matter what you do to them. Millions of murdered citizens are turning in their graves at the thought of such wickedness. Grow up Russia! this is 2009, not 1949. You cannot airbrush the facts from the historical record!
Latvia!?!?
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 08:21 am (UTC)
"The one issue which divides us is our interpretation of history," says Ojars Kalnins, director of the Latvian Institute, a think-tank linked to Latvia's Foreign Ministry. "Russia could demonstrate a lot to the world if it did what Germany did, and apologised for the actions of previous governments..." - artickle---------------------------------------------------------------- Well, well, well...Latvia! Ha-ha! There is strong opinion among majority of historians that Soviet Russia and bolsheviks regime managed to come to power in 1917 and to win the civil war being at some moments close to defeat ONLY BECAUSE OF SO CALLED "LATVIAN RIFLES" division help- stounch allies of bolsheviks (some say they supported bolsheviks to get independance from Russia which they hated) - anyways they facilitated for communism in Russia more then any other military force and perhaps if not for them there would have never been Communist Russia and Stalin's Gulag and occupation of Europe...Read about this interesting page of history...Maybe Latvia should apologise first for what their "best" inflicted on Russian people in 1917-1918 and subsiquently to the rest of the world? ...Really interesting example of particularly Latvia in this artickle - really I would have nothing to say if Lithuania were mentioned, but it is Latvia mentioned here! Is it with a perpose? Every Russian knows about this "Latvian rifles" division, so maybe the author is actually deep in his heart siding with Russian point of view on this matter?
Re: Latvia!?!?
[info]londonlat wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:41 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure how pictures of the Latvian Legion (don't know if it was the 15th or the 19th division) are supposed to reflect badly on anything. The Latvian legion could only participate in the fight against the Soviet oppressor as part of the SS. Any attempts by the Latvians to set up alternate centres were puit down by the Nazis, who were in control (do search on Kureliesi). After the massive atrocities committed against the Latvians by the Soviets in 1940, following the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and secret protocol there was no question that the Latvians would happily accede to them occupying them a second time.
Re: Latvia!?!?
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:53 pm (UTC)
What about the massive atrocities committed on Latvian jews by the Latvian Legion??

But of course, those are *facts* that are very unconvenient to explain??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Latvia

Facts. Facts. Facts.
Re: Latvia!?!?
[info]londonlat wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC)
The Latvian legion didn't commit any atrocities against Jews because a) they were front-line troops and b) the Jews had already been dispatched by the time the Latvian legion was formed i.e in 1944 in order to try and stem the tide of the red plague. It would probably do you good to read a history book or two.
Re: Latvia!?!?
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 01:55 pm (UTC)
Re: Latvia!?!?
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 03:43 pm (UTC)
Next you will be telling us that Wikipedia is an evil soviet-masterminded plot...
What a joke
[info]archie1954 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC)
To show how The USSR "helped" Eastern Europe just look at the difference in one country between the West and the East. Look at Germany. Remember East Berlin under the Soviet boot. It was a disaster area all throughout the Soviet occupation. After the two Germanies united the German government had to spend billions upon billions of marks to bring the Eastern part of the country up to Western conditions. Talk about fostering lies, I think the Russian government is playing at revisionism.
Re: What a joke
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 04:16 pm (UTC)
You're the joke.

Got anything to say about the Latvians fighting in the Wehmacht? Confess - you had no idea about that, and because you've got no idea you deny it ever happened. Or just spout a load of old cobblers about what you think about the soviet union after reading the Daily Mail?!

Frankly you've never been nearer E Europe than Ipswich.
Re: What a joke
[info]archie1954 wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 04:19 pm (UTC)
I didn't mention anything about the Germans so pleas edon't extrapolate. I was speaking specifically about the Soviet influence economically and I stand by my words. If you can prove me wrong please do so.
Re: What a joke
[info]seraskier wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 05:42 pm (UTC)
How could I "prove you wrong" when you've simply uttered a vague factless diatribe of your personal feelings about the USSR? Prove *what* wrong, exactly?? You claim you "didn't mention anything about the Germans", but your posting says "Look at Germany. Remember East Berlin under the Soviet boot. " Isn't that about the Germans, then? Or is that Germany in South America?

Sorry mate, but your post is just empty bigoted bollox.
Re: What a joke
[info]archie1954 wrote:
Saturday, 13 June 2009 at 10:00 pm (UTC)
don't you think calling me bigotted is like the pot calling the pan black? Your own prejudices are quite evident in your dialectical prose. I was in grade school when one of the most beautiful girls I have ever seen was admitted to the school half way through the year. She wasn't Latvian but Estonian and my ideas about the Baltic countries came directly from knowing her. She and her family fled from her homeland because of the Soviets and how they treated the Estonians. If I'm wrong in my sense of what occurred there, I'm sorry, but I got it from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Re: What a joke
[info]londonlat wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 04:17 pm (UTC)
Do you actually know the difference between the Wehrmacht and the SS? The Latvian divisions, like all of the other foreign divisions, were incorporated into the SS, because they were not Germans. Soldiers from the Latvian divisions were exonerated at Nuremberg and were employed as guards to the Nazis on trial.
Russia's attempt to bully the Baltic States
[info]amnestyjim wrote:
Thursday, 11 June 2009 at 08:18 pm (UTC)
From a famous passage in George Orwell's novel 1984:

"He who controls the past, controls the future; and he who controls the present, controls the past."
Alarm in the Baltics
[info]sommo wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 06:57 am (UTC)
Unfortunately Shaun Walker has omitted to note the Soviet invasion of Estonia in 1940-another great liberation-and the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact by which the Soviets and Nazis collaborated to divide the Eastern bloc.

This omission gives some gives some quasi credibility to the Russian claim that they forced the Nazis out of Estonia-a liberating force- and ignoring their earlier invasion which was a contemptible attempt tp take over the country.

It is also noteworthy that the majority of Estonians preferred the German occupiers to the Soviet undisciplined hordes.
Re: Alarm in the Baltics
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 10:31 am (UTC)
sommo, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was essential in annexation of West Byelorussia (East Poland), West Ukrain and Bukovina (Moldavia) which happened immideatelly after the begining of WW2. As for Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - they were incorporated into USSR by the desigion of their Parlaments - after the begining of War trade unions and local communists organised mass demonstrations and their represantatives in national parlaments of those states rised the question of incorporating back to USSR (those states were part of Russian Empire before 1917) so that not be annexed by Germans (communists had reasonable fear that they would be persicuted by nazi - trade unions sided with them). So there was official appeal to USSR by the governments and parlaments of those states. Naturally Stalin was happy and consent was given by Soviet Supreme Soviet (Parlament) - by the way after Soviet troops came to those Baltic states - the Governments there continue to be in place till next elections - so it was all the separate story as far as Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is conserned - and that is why I do not accept acusations of Baltic states in
"occupation" - they should blame their own communists and trade unions (by the way all the different story with Finland which REALLY was in the most barbaric way invaded by USSR in 1939 and parts of it territories were annexed - I think it is only the scornfull fact that Finns later sided with Nazi Germany which makes it reasonable not to give those territories back to them (because current border demarkation was a result of WW2 in which Finland fought on German side)....Now back to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - this pact was actually analog to Munhen pact of Hitler-Chamberlain - it was an antiwar pact to avoid mutual aggression. Germany invaded Russia in 1941 in breach of this pact actually, the same way as they invaded Poland in breach Of Munhen pact (which permited them to invade Czeckoslovakia only) ...It is another story that there were secret protocols to that pact which stated that in case there would be a war in Poland - Hitler would never occupy West Byelorussia (part of Poland), West Ukraine and Moldova (parts of Romania those days) because those regions were populated mainly not by Poles and Romanians but by Byelorushians and Ukrainians - nations which had their republics within USSR. So there was never any kind of desire to start the war - Stalin was afraid of war those days (USSR was not prepared for it) - so this pact was not to start a war, it was not to invade each other and to exclude the indiginous nations of USSR (which appeared on Polish and Romanian territories as a result of border demarkations in 1920) from Nazi occupation...As for how Stalin behaived on those territories with arrests and deportations is another story, but the Pact itself was not aggressive - it is only anti-Russian press which portray it as agresive - as for the scolars who relly read it and analyse - attitude is different and much more ballanced.......I think also that your last phrase about majority of Estonians is wrong - in 1939 majority voted for incorporation into USSR, later in 1970-s, 1980-s - yes, their mood have changed and they became pro-independance (which Gorbachev reluctantly granted them)...Also your praysing German discipline in contex of nazi occupation is racist - yes the process of murdering millions of Jews, Slavs, Gipses was a procedure exersised by them with exelent discipline, but don't you think that it is horrible and strange of you to praise it here in this context?...
Re: Alarm in the Baltics
[info]londonlat wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 04:27 pm (UTC)
A greater load of tripe is hard to imagine. Are you on this committee that Medvedev wants to set up? The secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact pertain to the occupation of the Baltic States. The Balts were first forced to accept Soviet troops on their soil as 'guaranteeing' their security. Then, fraudulent elections were held presided over by the Soviets and rejecting any candidates who were not from the 'Workers' bloc or whatever it was called. There were no mass demonstrations by Latvian communists - the Latvian communists hardly existed - certainly large numbers of Latvian communists that Stalin had not murdered in 1937 were shipped in to make up the numbers. The resulting 'government' (the UK Foreign Office received the results of the election one day before they actually took place) then asked to become part of the 'glorious' Soviet Union. Amazing how these countries had not thought of it in the twenty years preceding. Recommended reading - 'The Case for Latvia - Disinformation campaigns against a small nation' - by the Finnish journalist Jukka Rislakki.
Re: Alarm in the Baltics
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 07:06 pm (UTC)
londonlat writes: "...The Balts were first forced to accept Soviet troops on their soil as 'guaranteeing' their security..."----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Forced...Combined population of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuanis (Balts as you name it) was TWICE bigger then population of Finland those days (actually the same is demographic situation now) - so why was it that Finns were not forced and took arms against Soviet-Stalinist-Communist invasion and effectivelly stopped it and Balts (two times more numerous) were forced without even attempt to protest? - the answer is clear - your leadership took decigion to incorporate itself into USSR willingly - you say subsiquent elections were froudulent and majority was against incorporation?- maybe, I have no idea - but it only shows that your government before those elections betrayed your own people inviting Soviets...The fact is - there was no occupation - there was your appeal to be incorporated (or call it your government appeal - was it as a result of your own betrayal each other or legitimate one - those your problems to decide, but USSR behaved on your request - there was no occupation). Otherwise why didn't you follow the example of Finland - again Finns were twice smaller in numbers then Balts combined! Hard to answer this question, right?
Al
[info]allan_estonian wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 03:38 pm (UTC)
Latvia as a state and other Baltic states where not officially in Axis powers (alliance with Nazis). Of cource there were people who fought along with Nazis against occupiers from USSR to free their country. There were also Groups of russians who fougt with Nazis to free Russia from communist evils. So you can't judge country by basis of some video, the important thing is that those small nations had no other chanse to fight for their country against 150 million Russians-communist.
Al
[info]allan_estonian wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 03:48 pm (UTC)
You cant' judge 100% of WWII war criminals and crimes. But in Nurnberg Nazi war crimes have been judged. FACT IS THAT DURING WW2 AND AFTERWARDS SOVIETS HAVE OCCUPIED LOT OF COUNTRIES AND HAVE EXECUTED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE -ALSO RUSSIANS. HOW MANY PERSONS HAVE BEEN IN TRIAL FOR SOVIET CRIMES- the answer is: ALMOST ZERO!
Re: Al
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 05:45 pm (UTC)
alan_estonian :HOW MANY PERSONS HAVE BEEN IN TRIAL FOR SOVIET CRIMES- the answer is: ALMOST ZERO!--------------------------------------------------------Liar! Beria (KGB and GULAG chief) was executed along with a dosen of his henchen-aids just several months after Stalin's death...I think numbers are comparable to those in Nurnberg - whom else do you want to execute - soldiers and officers? german soldiers and officers were not executed - some of them still alive....You probably want to put communism on trial along with nazi ideology? I am not a communist but must say - it is impossible - communists are members of parlament in Italy, for many years were in French parlament, in Portugal parlament - don't know about today, and what about socialists then - maybe the same destiny you want for them?...So as an ideology it can not be put on trial like nazi ideology was...I actually think that you have no point...you want somehow to manifest your hate towards Russian (which is a racist in its core - because you want make a nationality responsible for crimes of political force which was multinational - % of Ukrainians among the members of communist party was the same as %
of Russians there - to your information in 290 mln. population of USSR there were 14 mln. communists which constitutes 6% of population - the national content was proportional - 6% of Estonians were members, 6% of Russians, 6% of Ukrainians etc...So? ...So, stop play victims - you (Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians etc,, al ex-Soviets) are equally resposible for what have been done...If you say 94% were not members - my answer -94% of Russians were not members as well...What do we have as a result? - your hate and your racist attitude...and where are arguments to support your blaming particularly Russians?
Re: Al
[info]allan_estonian wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 10:07 pm (UTC)
I'm not racist and dont' blame only russians. In Estonia we at least trie to figure out what happend after war , who deported thousands of inocent peole from their homes to Siberia and Gulag camps. And we have trials , so do Jews , they still hunt former Nazis. Same has been done also in other Baltic states in order to prevent such attrocities in the future. You seem to forget that it was Russian bolscevis who formed Soviet union and along with communist from neigbouring countries they formed communist governemts with force in those countries. And thank god western europe was strong and staid independent as they were - and no innocent lives have been taken there after war. But there is no trials in Russia - on the contrary russia manipulates hes people so , that majority of people there see massmurderer Stalin as hero - and all hes neigbours as enemies and this is very uppseting and alarming.
Re: Al
[info]rex123 wrote:
Saturday, 13 June 2009 at 10:34 am (UTC)
allan_estonian, just above your post is mine post, which exactly starts with info on trials in USSR of those organises of mass repressions (Beria, Kabulov, Dekanosov etc.etc - those were officials of the level such as KGB chief, GULAG chief, minister of home affairs etc.etc.. - Stalin was dead and so his politics was condemned within 3 years in 1956 by the famous report of Khrushchev to the 20th congress of the CPSU), all those reppressed were let free from Gulag just several months after Stalin's death and got official documents thet they were rehabilitated (that is that they were convicted unlawfully and had no guilt), later in 1991 the monument to Dzerzhinsky - founder of CHK-NKVD-KGB was slammed and the kross was erected on this place right in front of Lubyanka (KGB headquaters in Moscow) to commemorate those repressed......Still, my point is not about it - you are saying about occupation of Estonia which was not true - Estonia was incorporated (is Scotland occupied by UK or incorpotared? - the same is here) - the difference is that nazi occupation was when individual germans (there was plan to ressetle some to conquered lands) were to be masters and locals to be second class citizens (if permited to live at all) destined to serve nazi masters! Soviet incorporation of Baltic states meant that Balts became citisens of USSR ABSOLUTELLY EQUALL to Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Uzbeck, Tajik, Tatar, Bashkir etc.etc.etc -more then 80 nationalities were there in USSR! Each individual person who was resettled to Estonia was not MASTER to estonians in contrast to each NAZI-German resettled to Poland for ex, - don't you feel the difference? As for repressions and deportations - absolutelly all nationalities were "eligible" for those repressions under Stalin (georgian himself by the way) !!! ...And you now try to accuse individual Russians (and even their kids and grandkids who were born in Estonia long after Stalin's death) in occupation!!! Result is that 20% of your population (who were born in Estonia but are Russians or at least Russian-speaking - some of them even not Russians!) so 20% are so called non-citizens with NO RIGHT TO VOTE! They have to pass exam in Estonian language which as I heard is not to show just ability to communicate, but to be able to write in it...no citizenship is possible to get without it! And there are about 40% of Estonian population whose native language is Russian (only half of them managed to pass this exam) - in Finland for example only 8% of population are Swedish, but Swedish language is the state language along with Finnish. I must remind you that during Soviet regime Estonian language was in school programme, papers and books were published in Estonian, all streeets marked in Estonian, ads on shopwindows, TV and radio programes - Tallinn was my favorite tourist destination where I used to go several times a year just for weekends from St.Petersburg where I live, just to walk your streets, drop to those famous cafes, or to go shopping for EVERYTHING was better in Estonia then in the rest of USSR - even milk products locals in bordertown Ivangorod prefered to by across the river in Estonian Narva! And you say you were oppressed? -b.s. - I am in my 40-s and I remember Estonia in 1970-s and 1980-s - life was exelent there comparing to Russia. You were treated with respect, Yaak Yoalla and Anne Veski were loved like relatives by every Russian of my age those years...maybe you were hiding your hate inside - its your problem then - but you were respected by Russians and we were tought at school you were eager to join in 1939...whatever it was in reality - it is MEAN now to accuse contemporary generation of Russians in whatever your grandfathers expirienced along with our grandfathers on the hands of Stalin...Each individual nazi considered himself superior and others as his slaves, each individual Russian considered himself equal to those nationalities comprising USSR and togeather with those nationalities was suffering all the repressions and hardships imposed by the regime which is no more in existance in Russia. Period.
re:
[info]allan_estonian wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 03:53 pm (UTC)
"Contemporary Russian government are decendants of August 1991 which collapsed USSR and Communism with the hands of Russian people (many of whom died on the streets of Moscow under tanks on 19-20 August 1991) so that you in Poland as well may be free of communist yoke...don't you know that?..."

Are you saying that we have to be grateful , that russia was also occupied by russians (communists)???
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 04:53 pm (UTC)
allan_estonian, why are you so agitated? - you don't need to be gatefull - those people ofcourse didn't have Estonia in their mind throwing themselves under tanks that night 19-20 august 1991 - they were doing that to get rid of communists first of all...But it a fact that Russians themselves dismantled communism in USSR in contrast to Germans who dismantled nazism not themselves but by Russian, American and British troops - it is evident and we all were already alive to vitness it with our eyes...So what do you want me to believe?...Ofcourse Estonia , Latvia and Lithuania would never regain independance if Russians didn't revolt to crush the communist putchists whop made this attempt to topple Gorbachev. Within 3 days communist party of USSR was prohibited and Estonia declared independance DE-FACTO which was recognised by new Russia?...Correct me if I am wrong - but I was witnessing those events with my own eyes so hardly anybody will be able to deceieve me here...I think you just realised that I am a Russian and decided to somehow kick me on-line, right? - because I do not see any point in your post, actually...
Double Standards?
[info]phoenix_2009 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 03:59 pm (UTC)
Typical Russians! As a historian I fully understand that history is written by the victors! One thing that we should never forget is that the Russians were also responsible for killing Allied POW. This was hushed up at the time so as not to upset the Alliance, which of course turned into the cold war. The second cold war is not far from the future as Russia starts to flex its economic muscles once more. Once more NATO will have to be on alert alog with the Americans, Australians and Japanese having to keep an eye on China. We must never allow the truth to be distorted. There are too many lies regarding WWII, we do not need any more.
Re: Double Standards?
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 12 June 2009 at 06:02 pm (UTC)
Hey, historian "phoenix_2009", have you seen those POW were executed by Russians, not Ukrainians or Georgians (Stalin and Beria were Georgians by the way) - so those who executed were Russians, you was there to attest? By the way, have no idea which POW you mean, but my point is that you use "russian" for any ANY!!! crime commited by whoever it was - doesn't matter for you - if it was a crime the criminal should be Russian....How do you say - "typical Russians?"...You are typicall racist in JUDICIAL MEANING OF THIS WORD!!!...what, the hell, historian you are?!...where do they make such historians...
British Empire or the current UK for Russians was and is a hated provocator
[info]do_not_buy_it wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 03:03 pm (UTC)
Hi Provocateur. When you state that Russian Army was liberating Baltic states and call it another enslavery say out loud, you Provocateur, to your illiterate audience that these states had 20 years of independence and ALL THEIR history before this 20 years was within Russian Empire which was apart from British Empire one common state where national traditions were preserved and all citizens had the same rights as Russians. You can not say the same about your past where you exterminated every thing that moves on the overseas territories of the British Empire, right? Do not forget to mention, you an idiot, that this type of "enslavery" brought these Baltic nations from a 100% rural economies to industrial society with the same rights as Russians observed with their own Lithuanian, Estonian, Latvian languages spoken everywhere on there land starting from schools finishing with Parliaments. Just name a single place where UK did it. None.

So buddy you look like an idiot or provocateur after righting this sh* Another point is that comparing USSR to Nazi Germany sooner or later you will be paid back. I am sure one day I hire a good team of lawyers to get you and bastards like you to be sentenced for these sh* It seems like an English national character is to blackmail Russian history, right? No problem there is a cure for it.

You, provocateurs, are whipping about Holocaust every year and you bustards hide from your illiterate population that 20 millions of Russians paid their life for your future without Nazis and not the victims of Holocaust did it or your "brave" UK, US soldiers sitting in trenches, waiting when Russians do the job for them.

For these reasons the UK is the least appealing country for every Russian except the Jews called oligarchs who keep their actives in UK banks that is steal money from Russian economy to avoid taxes.

At all good times every provocateur has been shot. Nowadays can be jailed what is not a bad option.
See you buddy.



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