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Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools

By Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press

Kevin Flannagan, brother of a child abuse victim, shouts at members of the government-appointed Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse in state-funded Roman Catholic Church-run institutions, as he is turned away from a press conference in Dublin

PETER MUHLY/AFP/Getty Images

Kevin Flannagan, brother of a child abuse victim, shouts at members of the government-appointed Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse in state-funded Roman Catholic Church-run institutions, as he is turned away from a press conference in Dublin

A fiercely debated, nine-year investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorised thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

High Court Justice Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse, which is based on testimony from thousands of former students and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public, so that children in Ireland never endure such suffering again.

But most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals.

Wednesday's five-volume report sides almost completely with the former students' accounts. It concludes that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.

"A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from," the report concluded.

The commission said overwhelming, consistent testimony from still-traumatized men and women, now in their 50s to 80s, had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential.

The report proposed 21 ways the government could recognize past wrongs, including building a permanent memorial, providing counseling and education to victims and improving Ireland's current child protection services.

But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

Irish church leaders and religious orders all declined to comment Wednesday, citing the need to read the massive document first. The Vatican also declined to comment.

The Irish government already has funded a parallel compensation system that has paid 12,000 abuse victims an average of €65,000 ($90,000). About 2,000 claims remain outstanding.

Victims receive the payouts only if they waive their rights to sue the state and the church. Hundreds have rejected that condition and taken their abusers and those church employers to court.

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

"The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care," the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders — that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this opinion as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children.

But the commission said its fact-finding — which included unearthing decades-old church files, chiefly stored in the Vatican, on scores of unreported abuse cases from Ireland's industrial schools — demonstrated that officials understood exactly what was at stake: their own reputations.

It cited numerous examples where school managers told police about child abusers who were not church officials — but never did this when one of their own had committed the crime.

"Contrary to the congregations' claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse," it said.

Religious orders were chiefly concerned about preventing scandal, not the danger to children, it said.

The commission also condemned Ireland's Education Department for aiding the abusive culture through infrequent, toothless inspections that deferred to church authority.

Inspectors were supposed to restrict the use of corporal punishment and make sure the children were adequately fed, clothed and educated — but the report called those inspections "fundamentally flawed."

It said a lone inspector was responsible for monitoring more than 50 industrial schools, schools were told about the visits in advance and inspectors rarely talked to the children.

Wednesday's report also highlighted the rarity of human kindness in the institutions.

"A word of consideration or encouragement, or an act of sympathy or understanding, had a profound effect. Adults in their 60s and 70s recalled seemingly insignificant events that had remained with them all their lives," the report said.

"Often the act of kindness, recalled in such a positive light, arose from the simple fact that the staff member had not given a beating when one was expected."

www.childabusecommission.ie/

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rotten to the core!
[info]freeethinker wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:56 am (UTC)
the catholic church has always been and still is rotten to the core.

all religion is rotten and untrue.

why is it the religious still believe when all the observable evidence points to the conclusion that their imagined god does not exist.

i suppose now their will be lots of church services to ask god to protect the little children! amen!!

the mind boggles at the stupidity.
Re: rotten to the core!
[info]melsykes wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:03 am (UTC)
I think we all knew that the Catholic church was corrupt for centuries, let alone decades. Spanish Inquisition anyone?

As for saying all religion is rotten and untrue is taking things a bit far though. Religion isn't bad, but the people taking advantage of religion for their own gains certainly are.
Re: rotten to the core! - [info]freeethinker - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:32 am (UTC) Expand
Re: rotten to the core! - [info]wer_wind_blows - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 09:02 am (UTC) Expand
Re: rotten to the core! - [info]aristocles2 - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: rotten to the core! - [info]freeethinker - Thursday, 21 May 2009 at 02:53 pm (UTC) Expand
I was convent educated - [info]mike4626 - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: I was convent educated - [info]freeethinker - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 10:47 pm (UTC) Expand
What a terrible
[info]andrea_2 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:20 am (UTC)
institution the Catholic Chruch is. Run by warped people who thrived on inhumanity and cruelty. How can anyone in their right mind want to be part of such a set-up?
Re: What a terrible
[info]ffoulkes_aycke wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 02:59 pm (UTC)

BLIAR DID,,,,,,,,,,,,QED
Suffer little children
[info]gaius_godd wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 09:08 am (UTC)
It's unacceptable for any religious person to maltreat a child. Under the guise of being a priest many did just this. Celibacy was no doubt partly to blame. This imposed asexuality must be systemically changed. Let the priests lead a normal heterosexual or homosexual life. We should not judge all priests to be guilty, There are many saints among the sinners, just like in secular life.
Re: Suffer little children
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 09:26 am (UTC)
I've never understood why priests are forced to live a life of celibacy. A priest is meant to be a servant of the people, and the scriptures clearly state that such a person who wants to dedicate their life to that kind of responsibility should be the husband of one wife. If they can remain unmarried and are able to do so, they should be allowed to. If they're not able, they should be allowed to marry. Both are good. With that said, it isn't appropriate for a priest to live a homosexual lifestyle. Agreed though that we definately should not judge all priest to be guilty. Technically all saints are sinners at heart.
Peadophilia.
[info]drg40 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 10:00 am (UTC)
Can anybody explain why the Bishops/Archbishops/Cardinals have not been charged with conspiracy to pervert the cause of justice or obstructtion of the police in the execution of their duties?
[info]lima_charlie wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 10:52 pm (UTC)
Rape, assault and the sexual abuse of children - these are all crimes yet somehow the findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed?

No, you're not alone in thinking that this seems pretty unbelievable. Crimes have been committed yet even now the identities of those responsible are being protected and those who protected them are being allowed to continue doing so.

I don't want to go off topic but these last few weeks have really highlighted the ability of large-scale institutions such as Parliament or the Roman Catholic Church to protect their own from the kind of scrutiny and ultimately punishment that any other member of the public would and should expect and ultimately how very wrong that is. Justice seems very much blind to what has happened in these cases when they have finally been opened up and placed in clear sight of the greater public...
[info]advoc_8 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 10:30 am (UTC)
Why the hell aren't the church paying the compensation? The Catholic church has unimaginiable wealth, and anyone who is praying with rosary beads ought to feel pretty sick right now after learning the conditions under which they were made, isn't this exactly the sort of thing you pray for? To stop the suffering of children? How could they not see the hypocricy of using slave labour and beatings to manufacture the rosaries? If there is a God he's probably thinking "not in my name".
What religion isn't a fraud??
[info]collin_brown wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 11:50 am (UTC)
Re: What religion isn't a fraud??
[info]gobacktosleep1 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:16 pm (UTC)
Great link. Hope you dont mind I've used it some where else.
Re: What religion isn't a fraud?? - [info]collin_brown - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What religion isn't a fraud?? - [info]gobacktosleep1 - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:58 pm (UTC) Expand
All people in the World deserve a second chance.
[info]famulla wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 01:27 pm (UTC)
Ireland braces for report on Catholic child abuse.
All people in the World deserve a second chance. The football players yellow card then red and then green. They pay when the get the blue. The Child labor is very common and in these desperate times all have the right to choose the child as the maid or the sweeper, the driver or the gardener. Why UK objects. In Scotland, I do not see this but I have been to Scotland. I have not been to the UK and Ireland and Australia, I am in Russia and these are very rare here. I have a good joke book I wrote.
Oh, Jesus forget the reporters. Forgive them for they never know what they do. Amen As soon as one paper ran the story, others followed. Bloody gossipers?
No wonder he pay no tax we have broken marriage and broken parliaments, the speaker commits suicide. He may be tycoon but I brand him as the killer out to kill more.
In Ireland and Britain," his entry reads. It goes on to cite reports that Pearson has a "war chest" of up to ?2bn, having profited from retail property deals in London worth almost £1bn and a New York investment which yielded up to ?800m.
Pearson pays for this? If he is a tycoon, he has not given up the day job. I just changed my idea after I read the parliaments are stealing but I am available anytime between midnight to 1 am. Call me my secretary will hold you on and play the song , London Bridge is burning Down and the When the Saints come marching in the night, oh I love their marching Guitar , drums, oomph, flute all in one note. It is all confusing but you have to have the ears for this like this story. Do you have eyes? David McKittrick (Scottish) reports, his wealth was all a confection. You, you, you had to ask him to confess, did you not?
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
Re: All people in the World deserve a second chance.
[info]rexxxxxxxx wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 04:06 pm (UTC)
might be better if you were sober before entering a discussion about the tragic rape and torture of children

we don't thank you
Re: All people in the World deserve a second chance. - [info]famulla - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 05:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: All people in the World deserve a second chance. - [info]famulla - Thursday, 21 May 2009 at 05:07 am (UTC) Expand
logic and legality have little to do with
[info]famulla wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC)
"In other words, our standard view of morality - the
philosophical consensus for thousands of years - has
been exactly backward. We've assumed that our moral
decisions are the byproducts of rational thought, that
humanity's moral rules are founded in such things as
the Ten Commandments and Kant's categorical
imperative. Philosophers and theologians have
spilled lots of ink arguing about the precise logic of
certain ethical dilemmas. But these arguments miss
the central reality of moral decisions, which is that
logic and legality have little to do with
anything."
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
I have only one thing to add to this:
[info]westbrit wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 02:19 pm (UTC)
'Man(kind) will never be free until the last king has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest'
(Diderot).
It is as true today as then.
Re: I have only one thing to add to this:
[info]aristocles2 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC)
Yes, and of course its believers who are the aggressive sinister ones and atheists who are the kindly good guys.
the big picture
[info]prpr1027 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 02:42 pm (UTC)
The message has always been to live one's life based on the teachings of Jesus Christ- no human being or organization run by human beings (church - reigious group , priests etc. ) should ever be trusted as the same thing. This is an excellent example- Antoher is the terrorists blowing up people in the name of God --- In 2000 years - we still don't get it , do we !
Child Abuse
[info]brazierdv wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)

There is nothing I can add to the horror that all of use feel for this grotesque abuse of authority.

But it shows that we all must continue to root out the crimes committed by the clergy against children so that we ensure that in never happens again.

As much as I would like to see the Vatican make a statement on this the RC Church has never been quick to acknowledge the wrongdoings of its clergy.
THAT'S RELIGION FOR YOU
[info]georgesign wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:34 pm (UTC)
People who are religious often use the argument that without religion there would be no moral guidance. there is nothing more to be said.

Religion 0 Common-sense 10
[info]doug_piranha wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:54 pm (UTC)
Why are priests forced to accept celibacy ? They are not. It is entirely their choice.
This is man made fetish - like self flagellation - like becoming a"bride of Christ" ,
dressing yourself in black with a funny hat - what the hell is all that about.?

NO ONE FORCED anyone to become celibate.
Why would anyone think that makes then "holy" in any way.
Their God told them to go forth and multiply - no abstain from sex - quite the opposite.
Religious bigots - warp impressionable minds- who then commit all sorts of atrocities in
the name of their God.

What a price for those innoccent youngs kids to pay.

if there were any proof that religon should be banned from schools and all
institution for children - this is it.

Faith schools ? No thanks - they just make and reinforce the divisions.
Let religious nuts have power over our kids ? No thanks.
Irish Reform Schools
[info]desmond8819 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:56 pm (UTC)
It was not only Reform Schools. I attended a De La Salle Brothers school in the 1960s and 2 brothers were removed for molesting pupils, including a disabled boy.Every morning we had public prayers, every day we had religious instruction and every week some boy was abused during recreation or sports. "Bless me father for I have sinned " as they cleansed their sick consciences and re-abused. Then there was the physical violence meted out as corporal punishment. While I retain my faith I despise the clergy, both the abusers and the others members who turned a blind eye to it and covered it up.
westbrit
[info]doug_piranha wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:56 pm (UTC)
'Man(kind) will never be free until the last king has been strangled with the entrails of the last priest'
(Diderot).
It is as true today as then

never heard that one - excellent - says it all !
Why Should the Government(s) Pay?
[info]ambricourt wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 03:58 pm (UTC)
Ambricourt

Confiscate church lands as the brothers and sisters confiscated the freedom of others, especially the freedom and dignity of children entrusted to their care. Take over the Irish country houses and handsome estates used by nuns and brothers under some "charitable" guise; sell them; and use the proceeds to achieve social justice.
Remember - this is the church that has proclaimed Social Justice around the world - providing the clergy holds the reins, and the funds, of Justice.
Does the Republic of Ireland still give a percentage of its annual tax revenues to the church hierarchy?
How many other EU countries give an established percentage of national taxes to the Catholic Church? Do the taxpayers of Spain, Portugual, Italy know this... Have they ever voted in a referendum (reverendum) to approve the annual giveaway...
Pray that the evil the Catholic Church inflicts every day on the world will diminish as it matures in coming centuries. So far - two thousand years of sanctimonious power-wielding has merely brought it to a self-congratulatory adolescence.
RC church has no moral authority
[info]trimountaingal wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 04:33 pm (UTC)
Can we all now stop allowing the RC church to assume any position of moral authority in public life? When the Pope or any of his clergy tries to insist that government policy reflect their ideas of right and wrong, let us remember the time (nine years to conduct an enquiry?!), energy and money the RC church has spent refusing to take any responsibility whatsoever for the depraved criminal sexual acts committed by RC priests against helpless children in their so-called 'care'.

Time and time again, clergy who had the authority to ban self-confessed paedophiles from working with children in any capacity, knowingly facilitated sexual assaults on children by refusing to exercise this simple authority.

It is clear that if any other organisation allowed its agents to commit sexual acts against children its managers would now be facing lengthy prison sentences for actively assisting in the commission of thousands of crimes. It is also clear why the RC church will not be prosecuted as the power of the church is obviously too great to allow real justice to take place. I hope, however, the Irish people prove me wrong and demand that those responsible for the destruction of thousands of innocent people's lives, be held accountable.
Catholic Church
[info]kuma2000 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 04:45 pm (UTC)
For an organization that regularly speaks out against consensual shagging and homosexuality the Catholic Church seems to have very little problem with homosexual child rape. There is far too many incidents we hear about which are all treated very lightly by the Vatican.
god
[info]shergar999 wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 05:12 pm (UTC)
Well, believers --where was your "loving" god whilst all this was going on? I'll tell you where - nowhere because he doesn't exist. Or as my late uncle used to say, if he does exist then he is a bad bastard.
According to the teachings of all monotheistic religions, god created man.He is therefore is responsible for all man's iniquities. Uncle was right. When will the scales fall from the eyes of benighted religionists?
Why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge?
[info]obey_allah wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 06:25 pm (UTC)
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; (3-45)

"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." (3-46)

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! (3-47)

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, (3-48)

"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; (3-49)

"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. (3-50)

"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" (3-51)

When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. (3-52)

"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness." (3-53)

And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah (3-54)
words fail me
[info]bmtd wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 05:40 pm (UTC)
This is the most disgusting story I have ever read.
I hope religion ensures these priests and nuns burn in hell for all eternity.
Where do I sign up to stand against this appalling situation whereby criminal (justice!) proceedings are not carried out? Ireland has a legal system applicable to all - it seems the Vatican has bribed the Irish government to be exempt from legalities - disgusting, disgusting, disgusting!
Sick
[info]nigshakespeare wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 06:37 pm (UTC)
What a sick country Ireland is. Terrorism, alcoholism and paedophile Catholic priests.
Re: Sick
[info]annoyinbevan wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:42 pm (UTC)
As opposed to Imperialism, racially motivated famines, buggery in public schools, football hooligans and binge-drinking and serially shagging in Ibiza? Think about it Nigshakespeare. Ever hear of stereotypes? Or even history?
Re: Sick - [info]nigshakespeare - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 09:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Sick - [info]irishinrussia - Thursday, 21 May 2009 at 01:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Sick - [info]nigshakespeare - Thursday, 21 May 2009 at 05:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Sick - [info]irishinrussia - Monday, 25 May 2009 at 03:36 pm (UTC) Expand
It's global
[info]chaotopia wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:07 pm (UTC)

It's not just Ireland but world wide. Maybe it has something to do with belonging to a corrupt, archaic institution that is based on little more than a Bronze age fairy tale.

Let's not forget that Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor has, himself, never satisfactorily addressed the allegations that he covered up for a priest, Michael Hill, who was a serial sexual abuser of children:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_Cormac_Murphy_O%27Connor

A fact that is conveniently forgotten by every commentator and journalist who rush to interview the Cardinal every time he shoots his mouth off about his peculiarly backward view of "morality". Yet he claims that Atheists are not fully human?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrfz1DIq9Q

Perhaps he means subhuman?

Anyway Gordon Brown is absolutely determined to make him a peer in the House of Lords so he should be very welcome there.


Re: It's global
[info]annoyinbevan wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:38 pm (UTC)
Public schools, old boy...
religion
[info]killdogma wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 07:08 pm (UTC)
and now lets pray for god to protect our .childern how dumb
Public Schools
[info]annoyinbevan wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:31 pm (UTC)
And when will we have an enquiry into the ritual rape of young boys in our public schools, a tradition that is as old as the schools themselves? Do we do that kind of enquiry here? Or are we more concerned about expenses scams?
Re: Public Schools
[info]nigshakespeare wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 09:14 pm (UTC)
You really don't have a conscience, do you? The only right response to this appalling suffering is acknowledgement and regret but you just try to deflect attention elsewhere. You're the living reason why Ireland has never solved its own problems because it never faces up to them. An Irish Catholic murdering an Irish Protestant, for example, is somehow a...British problem. Thousands of children are systematically raped by Irish Catholic priests and your response? Public schools. Ireland has to look forward to many more decades of denial and self-inflicted suffering because of people like you who look elsewhere and try to get others to look elsewhere because you don't have the moral or intellectual honesty to face the ugliness of your own society.
Re: Public Schools - [info]annoyinbevan - Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 10:19 pm (UTC) Expand
And what about the public school buggery system
[info]annoyinbevan wrote:
Wednesday, 20 May 2009 at 08:37 pm (UTC)
And when will we have an enquiry into the jolly rape of young chaps in our public schools, a tradition as old as the schools themselves? After all, they call it The English Disease. No smoke without fire, I say.
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