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Europe opens covert talks with ‘blacklisted’ Hamas

By Anne Penketh, Diplomatic Editor

Hamas militants in training near the Gaza Strip

REUTERS

Hamas militants in training near the Gaza Strip

European nations have opened a direct dialogue with Hamas as the US intensifies the search for Middle East peace under Barack Obama.

In the first meeting of its kind, two French senators travelled to Damascus two weeks ago to meet the leader of the Palestinian Islamist faction, Khaled Meshal, The Independent has learned. Two British MPs met three weeks ago in Beirut with the Hamas representative in Lebanon, Usamah Hamdan. “Far more people are talking to Hamas than anyone might think,” said a senior European diplomat. “It is the beginning of something new – although we are not negotiating.”

Mr Hamdan said yesterday that since the end of last year, MPs from Sweden, the Netherlands and three other western European nations, which he declined to identify, had consulted with Hamas representatives.

“They believe they made a mistake by blacklisting Hamas,” he said, referring to the EU decision in 2003 to add the political wing of the movement to its list of terrorist organisations. “Now they know they have to talk to Hamas.”

Political contacts with Hamas are banned under the rules of the international Quartet for Middle East peace – which groups the US, the EU, Russia and the UN – on the grounds that the Palestinian faction remains committed to the destruction of Israel. The international community insists that the ban will only be lifted once the Islamists agree to recognise Israel and renounce violence. But the policy, set out in 2006 following the Hamas victory in Palestinian elections, has been called into question since the three-week war in Gaza which is ruled by Hamas.

Diplomats insisted that the lawmakers’ contacts with Hamas were at their own initiative, although they are presumed to have reported back to governments. The British MPs who went to Beirut “were not engaged in back channel or officially sanctioned talks,” said a Foreign Office spokesman.

The EU backs Egyptian-mediated efforts to secure reconciliation between Hamas and its Fatah rivals as part of a ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel. Palestinian unity is being encouraged as a prerequisite for a two-state solution.

But Mr Meshal told the French senators that Palestinian unity was “the most difficult issue”, according to a source familiar with the talks. “Meshal said the Palestinian Authority [led by the President Mahmoud Abbas, of Fatah] no longer represents anything,” said the source. Hamas is “convinced that the Arab street is with them”.

Hamas’s main backer, Syria, is also brimming with confidence after the three-week war failed to deal a knock-out blow to its allies in Gaza. The Syrian government senses an opportunity under Mr Obama to end the isolation imposed by the Bush presidency.

Syria’s President, Bashir Assad, has granted several interviews to Western media in recent weeks in which he has expressed the hope of improved relations with the US. John Kerry, the head of the Senate foreign relations committee who has advocated the return of a US ambassador to Syria, is due in Damascus at the weekend.

The Syrian ambassador to London, Sami Khiyami, said: “We expect another ambassador. It is not going to take a long time. America, like Europe, understands that the gate to having a political influence in the Middle East can only be achieved through Syria.”

But Middle East analysts play down expectations that EU – or US policy – regarding Hamas is about to change. Two major uncertainties remain: the approach of the Obama administration and the contours of the future Israeli government which could be led by the hardliner Benjamin Netanyahu.

Martin Indyk, a former US ambassador to Israel, said Mr Obama would be making a “huge mistake” if he decided to open direct talks with Hamas. Such a move would “undermine the Palestinian leadership that wants to make peace with Israel”.

He said there had been progress in indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria, and that Mr Netanyahu could well decide to embark down the track which is “somewhat riper”. But “the Syrians are not about to sign on the dotted line” insofar as they would come under pressure to break with their strategic allies, Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran, he added.

Mr Khiyami said the Israelis would have to choose between negotiations or future confrontation. “If they choose the first option they will find people ready to negotiate under the umbrella of the Arab initiative. If they choose the second, we are not responsible anymore for any violence that can happen in the Middle East.”

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Europe
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 01:42 am (UTC)
And Europe, specially Britain, should talk to the Taleban and Al-Quaeda.
Re: Europe
[info]valigia1 wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:06 am (UTC)
Now, what do you really know about Hamas? Nothing. Your view has been inculcated to you by Zionist-owned media and superficial journalism! I wish you went to Gaza and saw how many schools, infrastructure and hospitals had been created by Hamas (well is all mostly gone now, thanks to Israel war on Gaza). Hamas, was democratically elected for a reason. Whilst Fatah is corrupted to the bone and subservient to Israel, Hamas has worked for its people and for the future of a Palestinian state. the future will render justice to Hamas, the only true country liberators! Would you not fight to get the land that was stolen from you?
Re: Europe - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:33 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Europe - [info]valigia1 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 12:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Europe - [info]ahmetk - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 01:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Europe - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 03:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Europe - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Long Time Coming
[info]sultanofscally wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 02:34 am (UTC)
A necessary & long overdue step forwards. Free Palestine. The genocide has gone on for long enough.
Re: Long Time Coming
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:36 am (UTC)
In spite of this "genocide" the arab population in Israel (I am not mentioning Judea and Samaria, disputed territory, ex-Jewish land, stolen by arabs, conquered from Jordan in a defensive war) is growing, 20% now.
You will find genocide of arabs in... Arab countries, nearly all of (22) them. Briain found mass graves in Iraq, many of them. Arabs killed by arabs. Dig in any other arab country and you will find the same. In any bloody dictatorship like Syria, Lybia, Sudan, Somalia, etc. Or feudal kingdom like Saudi Arabia. They even kill their own daughters and sisters, for reasons of "honour", the savages.
Re: Long Time Coming - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Long Time Coming - [info]spiceguru - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 05:40 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]johnfromojai wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 02:50 am (UTC)
Most people in the U.S. don't get a lot of truth on Hamas and the situation in Gaza. The average citizen does not know that Hamas was democratically elected and was working with Abbas until the U.S. pushed Abbas to overthrow Hamas. The Vanity Fair article gives all the info on this. Another key point is that Hamas apparently kept the June ceasefire agreement by not firing rockets into Israel. Before the agreement more than 400 rockets a month went into Israel but after the agreement only 3 a month and evidence points to Fatah being responsible for them. Israel on the other hand never reduced the war crime blockade and on Nov. 4 killed 6 Gazans. Hamas has agreed to long term peace agreements but Israel would rather bomb children. We should follow Naomi Klein's advice and boycott, divest, and sanction Israel until it seeks justice with Hamas and the Palestinians.Also, prosecute israel for numerous war crimes.
blockade
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:39 am (UTC)
This "war crime blockade" you mention: Blockade came afer the rockets. Anyway arab gazans share a border with arab egyptians. Israel has no obligation towards a territory ruled by a hostile muslim jihadist terrorist organization.
Why don't the US help Al-Quaeda and the Taleban?
Re: blockade - [info]steve_wilds - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 02:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: blockade - [info]msepryor - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: blockade - [info]steve_wilds - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:40 pm (UTC) Expand
A false dilemma
[info]dakinehaoleguy wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:35 am (UTC)
Supporting the Palestinians is not the same as supporting Hamas. Hamas is a monumentally paranoid, dogmatic fundamentalist organization that will "tolerate" other religions only "under the shadow of Islam", will not tolerate anyone who does not believe in their "god", and eventually will lead to Palestinian people to complete destruction. Before you champion them, read their whole charter.
[info]saraal65 wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:05 am (UTC)
Just watch the Zionist hordes descend on this site...same lies..same language..same delusions...same nonsense..same determined support for Israel's crimes against Palestine and its people.. What they will see in time, is a liberated Palestine, as much the Zionists hate the idea of Palestinians regaining their land and their liberty, it will happen.
Obsession
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:40 am (UTC)
And watch the Jew obsessed britons waste their time writing against Israel while their country has killed so far half a million people (mostly civilians) in Afghanistan and Iraq, two countries a continent away that never fired even one rocket on you, hypocrites
Re: Obsession - [info]steve_wilds - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 03:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Obsession - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Obsession - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Obsession - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Obsession - [info]msepryor - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Talking to elected terrorists - [info]victormc - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:46 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Talking to elected terrorists - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:08 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]rgatbp wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)
The U.S. used to have a no-talk policy with Yasir Arafat.
The guy could not even enter the country. Then under
Clinton we figured out, you had to pencil him in if you
wanted any progress towards peace in the Middle East.

You don't make peace by talking to your friends. Yes,
Hamas has been a war-making operation that was then
elected. Same was true for Bush in 2004...

As Obama said at inaugural: Your people will ultimately
judge you by what you build, not what you destroy.

You get the fires out, you get parties signed to commitments,
then the world sides with you when they fail those obligations.


-
Talk
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:41 am (UTC)
Talk to Al-Quaeda and the Taleban now, please.
(no subject) - [info]uanime5 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Talking with Hamas
[info]simmary wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:42 am (UTC)
Not before time. They ARE the elected government in Gaza.
Re: Talking with Hamas
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:42 am (UTC)
Was Hamas elected? So was Hitler.
Re: Talking with Hamas - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Talking with Hamas - [info]ahmetk - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 01:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Talking with Hamas - [info]ahmetk - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 01:43 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]rgatbp wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:46 am (UTC)
Check out this rotating World-at-Night satellite
view / say hello at the Guestbook;

www.Balkingpoints.com


-
Hamas and Peace
[info]fairmind wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 09:46 am (UTC)
Britain made peace with co called terrorist group Sinn Fein and their leader Jerry Adams, you make peace with your enemy. Every time when Israel talk about peace meet with King Abdullah, Abbas and Mubarak and deceive the world that they want peace, but what they represnt in their own society? Do they have any ability to deliver peace? Answer is no, every body knows about it.
Truth is untill now there is no real peace process in Middle East, Israel still believe they can get way with by killing, assassinating top who is not with them and to convince the Western Governments is a duty for AIPAC.
So far Israeli leadership doesn't feel they need peace, but one day they will have to make peace with Palestinians. If they make peace today concessions will be less than tomorrow.
Re: Hamas and Peace
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:43 am (UTC)
Britain has been at war with the Taleban in Afghanistan and Al Quaeda in Iraq for the last eight years. Why? When did they attack Britain? Why don't you talk to them?
Re: Hamas and Peace - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:37 pm (UTC) Expand
talks with hamas
[info]picapiedras wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:53 am (UTC)
Mr Indyk as a Jew (this shows, how the US is overrun by Jews, who are only 2,5% of its population) is advocating the Israeli interests and not American, even less so that of peace.So what's the talk about?
hamas talks
[info]abubaqar wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:59 am (UTC)
its beneficial to get rid of the zionist jews in the european governments and the american administration to enable peace to happen in the middle east. the troublemakers are there as agents of the israeli state and have no loyalty to their host countrys, and they do all they can to further israeli evil and crimes against humanity which they barbarity has laid bare to the world so amny times!
talking to hamas
[info]picapiedras wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:01 am (UTC)
replying to chicharo: the West should rather stop its relations with Israel, a terrostist state right from the very begin of its existence. the whole history of Israel as presented to us, the Westerners, is a HUGE LIE.
Re: talking to hamas
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:38 am (UTC)
Maybe. Maybe the West should stop being Christian (following the teachings of master/rabbi Jesus/Yeoshua) and democratic. Maybe the West should adopt sharia now.
Re: talking to hamas - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: talking to hamas - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 09:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: talking to hamas - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:06 pm (UTC) Expand
hamas talks
[info]abubaqar wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:10 am (UTC)
it seems the zionist bloggers here believe they have no case to answer to the world for they compatriots crimes against humanity, breaking international law,doing false flag operations against european states to demonize muslims. the world is waking up to your games and will deal with you accordingly, you and your agents in the west will pay for your crimes. if ever there was a people who are anti humanity centred it is these freaks who call themselves gods chosen. i suppose after looking at your evil deeds it is wise to state that god has to be the devil whom you follow considering you have never heard gods voice from his messengers from moses onwards!
Re: hamas talks
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:44 am (UTC)
We Jews are not Gods chosen. We chose, we accepted his laws. We are rather men's chosen. I find it amazing. We are a small people (13 million in Israel and diaspora). 2,000 years ago there were thousands of peoples and religions. Every people, tribe and even family had their own religion and yet 1 billion people chose a Jew as their god and his religion (the bible, also the New Testament a Jewish book, from A to Z). Then, after 1,500 of Judaism and 700 after Jesus came that arab and invented a new religion based (no copyright at that time) on... Judaism. All muslim "prophets" are Jewish prophets or kings. Obsession. Forget us. Christians (the ones who hate Jews only, of course) go back to your pagan gods. Muslims too go back to your stone gods and forget us.
Re: hamas talks - [info]abubaqar - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 12:53 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: hamas talks - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: hamas talks - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 09:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Israel is a terrorist state
[info]voodoojedizin wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 03:21 pm (UTC)
There is only one rogue terrorist state in the Middle East, and that is Israel. Their politicians just went through an election where they were trying to outbid each other on how many women and children they could bomb.

Israel is the only country in the Middle East that is breaking international law and continuing with the worst human rights violations the world has ever known.

It is Israel, not Syria, not Iran, that is bombing women and children and killing them by the hundreds.

It is Israel that threatens its neighbors with preempt nuclear attacks.

Israel has nuclear weapons, and absolutely refuses to buy abide by or sign any nonproliferation treaties. In fact it won't even acknowledge it has them.

Unlike Iran that did sign, and has abided by the law. But Israel wants to bomb them and kill their women and children. Because they want to be the only superpower in the Mideast, and they're willing to kill as many women and children as they can to do it.

It is Israel that builds walls, and the biggest concentration camp the world has ever known. They're the ones that burned down houses and farms destroy sewage plants on purpose. Even Tony blair's pet project was bombed.

There have been more United Nations, reprimands, against Israel that were all blocked by the United States than all the countries in the Middle East put together.

What do you call a country that refuses to abide by international law and what the world sets as humanitarian rights and justice? It's called a terrorist state.

So who should be dictating policy to whom and who is the terrorist?
Re: Israel is a terrorist state
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:58 pm (UTC)
Don't be ridiculous. Israel could kill all arabs in Gaza, in half an hour (just like arabs would do to Jews if they could - they have tried many times).
If you are an arab or muslim you shouldn't be mentioning international law, you don't know what that means
Re: Israel is a terrorist state - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Unclean Hands
[info]mondaysmanchild wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:07 pm (UTC)
The often unspoken truth is that the USA has a difficult time speaking against Israel, not because of the jews, but because of the Native Americans in the USA. The USA is a country taken from the Native Americans just as Israel is a country taken from the Palestinians. Should the USA back give it back? Should they make larger reparations? It is because of these things that the USA cannot admit the wrong of Israel.
Re: Unclean Hands
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:00 pm (UTC)
The "Palestinians" (arabs) took Israel and many other countries from their owners. Arabs back to Arabia!
HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY
[info]be_just wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:12 pm (UTC)
Europeans are finally realising the mistakes that they made vis a vis Hamas. I understand that the previous US administration and its neocons supporters was a factor that pressurised the Europeans into submission.
Hamas has achieved more than it can dream of, following the Israeli attacks for more than 2 weeks of attacks from air, alnd and sea.
1) It is becoming more popular among the Palestinians not just in Gaza but in the West bank too.
2) The Arab street is more aware and gulvanised versus the Palestinians cause and are furious towards the Arab governing dictaotrs for lack of support to their brothers in Palestine. These Arab governments that hate democray and Islamic parties are furious for the gains made by Hamas.
3) Hamas is showing that the only language Israelis will understand is the language of resistence not gimmicky Peace plans.
4) Hamas has changed the Arab map into resistence supporters from Qatar to Syria to Algeria to Sudan to Lebanon to Libya to Mauritania versus those that are called moderates like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
5) Hamas enabled Turkey to play a crucial role in the Middle East instead of the traditional Egypt.
6) Europeans are starting to see the true face of Israel with its agressive attacks that led to the massacre of more than 1000 innocent children, women and unarmed civilians.
7) Hamas has shown the emergence of the extreme right wing in Israel is not what the Israelis are pursuing in the future (i.e. Peace) but security that extends beyond sthe 1967 frontier and inside Palestinians occupied lands that are shrunking every year.
8) The support of Hamas and the Palestinians cause extands from the Arab world to far away places like Bolivia and Venezuela where Israelis embassies were shut as a sign of solidarity with the Palestinians.
9) Millions of citizens around the world protested against the Palestinian genocide and massacre committed by the Israelis.
10) At last people are not afraid to speak up against Zionism and starting to fel confident to differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism with Jews for peace taking the lead in this respect.
Re: HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:00 pm (UTC)
So what if the rockets hitting Israel come from a democraticaly elected "government"? Hitler too was elected.
Re: HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY - [info]saraal65 - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:00 pm (UTC) Expand
HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY AND RESISTENCE WON
[info]be_just wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:15 pm (UTC)
Europeans are finally realising the mistakes that they made vis a vis Hamas. I understand that the previous US administration and its neocons supporters was a factor that pressurised the Europeans into submission.
Hamas has achieved more than it can dream of, following the Israeli attacks for more than 2 weeks of attacks from air, alnd and sea.
1) It is becoming more popular among the Palestinians not just in Gaza but in the West bank too.
2) The Arab street is more aware and gulvanised versus the Palestinians cause and are furious towards the Arab governing dictaotrs for lack of support to their brothers in Palestine. These Arab governments that hate democray and Islamic parties are furious for the gains made by Hamas.
3) Hamas is showing that the only language Israelis will understand is the language of resistence not gimmicky Peace plans.
4) Hamas has changed the Arab map into resistence supporters from Qatar to Syria to Algeria to Sudan to Lebanon to Libya to Mauritania versus those that are called moderates like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
5) Hamas enabled Turkey to play a crucial role in the Middle East instead of the traditional Egypt.
6) Europeans are starting to see the true face of Israel with its agressive attacks that led to the massacre of more than 1000 innocent children, women and unarmed civilians.
7) Hamas has shown the emergence of the extreme right wing in Israel is not what the Israelis are pursuing in the future (i.e. Peace) but security that extends beyond sthe 1967 frontier and inside Palestinians occupied lands that are shrunking every year.
8) The support of Hamas and the Palestinians cause extands from the Arab world to far away places like Bolivia and Venezuela where Israelis embassies were shut as a sign of solidarity with the Palestinians.
9) Millions of citizens around the world protested against the Palestinian genocide and massacre committed by the Israelis.
10) At last people are not afraid to speak up against Zionism and starting to fel confident to differentiate between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism with Jews for peace taking the lead in this respect.
Re: HAMAS WAS ELECTED DEMOCRATICALLY AND RESISTENCE WON
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:25 pm (UTC)
Got any proof to back up this nonsense? Hamas has achieved nothing be woe and misery for the Palestinians. The sooner the Palestinians realise that Hamas is bad for them the sooner their will be peace in the Middle East.
History
[info]mondaysmanchild wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:29 pm (UTC)
In the 1920s Rothchild established the Palestine Colonization Society to create a jewish colony in Palestine. In the 1920s, colonization didn't have the negative connotation that it does today. (There was a big story in the New York Times that discussed Rothchild and his aims, look it up.) He helped finance the movement of jewish people into Palestine. He was successful. By 1948 it became what we call Israel. Ben Gurion and others, through tactics that would today be defined as terrorist, had successfully used ethnic cleansing to drive the Palestinians from their homes. The Palestians and people in the surrounding areas were powerless to stop it, but they recognized Israel as the creation of a European colony. (For many many years Israel had never had a president who was not born in Europe.) The Palestinians have never accepted it, and Hamas is the latest outgrowth of this refusal.

Hamas was elected as the leader. What right do we have to reject the ones chosen by the people? Do they recognize Israel? Well, no. The Hamas movement is based on their history, and their history includes being forced from the land. For them, history does not begin in 1948. So, of course they don't recognize Israel. And you can't start a negotiation with them by demanding such recognition.
Re: History
[info]be_just wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:04 pm (UTC)
I believe Israelis are not interested in peace or another state called Palestine. If we analyse the map of 1948 between Israelis and Palestinians and the actual map between the 2 people, it is evident that the Palestinians lands are shrunking every year.
The European governments do not care because they still feel guilty about the holocaust that wasnt committed by Palestinians and try to blame both parties for lack of Peace succcess!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ideal scenario for the Israelis in the near future is to continue with more peace plans rethorique and to buy more time.
In return, the Israeli government will encourage its extremist Zionists to settle in more fertile lands in the West Bank and to make it impossible to have a Palestinian state in the future.

Then, whoever US president will be in power will force Jordan to accept whatever is left of the west bank and the Palestinian population and for Egypt to accept Gaza in return for more US ecnomical aid and financial rewards.

With more gimmick Peace plans in the piepline, more Arab states will be expected to have signed peace treaties with Israel and for anyone to shout foul, will be considered as an extremist and anti-semite!
Britain
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 06:48 pm (UTC)
Britain (and other coalition forces) have been killing people (neraly half a million so far) in Afghanistan and Iraq for eight years. Why don't you talk to the Taleban? Why don't you talk to Al-Quaeda? Why didn't you talk to Saddam? Why did you hang him? When did he attack Britain?
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:04 pm (UTC)
Poor arabs, have nowhere to live, "only" 22 countries (taken from other peoples, by the way), one in Palestine, Jordan. Jews were kicked out of the arab world (and no one complains...), but don't live in refugee camps, like the so called "palestinians" do in the arab world, with their "brothers".
[info]concretedave wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC)
So. Please explain where the Kzhars come from? Explain why, of the 'Lost Tribes of Israel' 13 of them. 13. Not one of them was Judaen. Please, explain who stole whos land. The Children of Abraham are the Semites. If there is anything anti-semetic. It is bombing the Fuck out of the (possiblly) desendants of Abraham. Face facts. Israel is an aparthied country. Years ago, the government of SA was brought down. For right, or for wrong. Yet, what goes on in Israel/Gaza, is allowed.

While I'm fuming, could you please explain to me what makes a race? Last time I looked it up. Arab and Jew didn't make the list. Nor did Buddihst or Christian.

Also. Who are the GOYIM?
[info]concretedave wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:08 pm (UTC)
Good. A democraticly elected party, regardless of what is/has been done should be allowed recognition.
Remember one thing. The U.S.A. is bringing Democracy to the countries it Invadeded. Remind us, Didn't Mugabe have a democratic election? If anyone has a problem with the 'Real' Issue. Piss off. I'm Fing tired of hearing about this> There is only one cause of the problems in the 'Arab'world. It's the 600000 people who suffered in WW1! Yes WW1. Look it up.

F*ck!!! My rant is now over.

Wasn't 'The new Israel' formed by terrorists?
Not
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:56 pm (UTC)
No, it wasn't.
Re: Not - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Subterfuge
[info]concretedave wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:31 pm (UTC)
I don't really care about HAMAS. I don't really care about Iran.
I care about the Iranian scientists that are dying 'from unknown causes'
I care about the fact, that the IAEA has never been allowed into Dimona.
I care that members of your family, could be sent to a war.
I care that they could by bombed be a plane that has no pilot.
I care that on September 11 2001, people were sent to 'document the event'.
I care about alot.
What I care about the most.
Is Truth.
[info]mondaysmanchild wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:33 pm (UTC)
No, Jews don't live in refugee camps, because they don't have to. They have the right to move to Israel and even build communities on disputed territory.

The irony is that there is a "war" in Afghanistan to prevent the Taliban from establishing their version of an Islamic state. Yet the whole world is supposed to accept the right of Israel to establish a Jewish state. Idi Amin was condemned for saying and trying et establish a policy of "Uganda is for Ugandans only". Nowhere else in the world is there a state established under rules equivalent to what takes place in Israel.
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:53 pm (UTC)
You are wrong about this "nowhere else in the world". There are 52 muslim countries in the world. Only one Jewish, little Israel. The 13 million Jews in the world are not oppressing the 1,3 billion muslims, Islam is. Thank your Allah for Israel, because you can blame little Israel for your misery.
JUSTICE ABOVE ETHNICITY, RELIGION OR ELSE - [info]be_just - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:33 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Chicharo is wrong - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Chicharo is wrong - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Very funny - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 07:54 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]freespeechlover wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:26 pm (UTC)
The political wing of Hamas is not the same thing as its military wing, so it's good to see the edifice of a sanctions regime that has not worked cracking open. Unfortunately, Meshal is correct in saying that Abbas doesn't represent anything. It's not just that Abbas's term ended on Jan. 9; it's that Abbas lost any political legitimacy he had after he was elected in 2005, due to the fact that he has nothing to show for aligning himself with Israel and the U.S. If Israel and the U.S. want to deal with Abbas, they should have strengthened rather than undermined him. Now if they try to prop him up, that will probably do more harm than good to Abbas. It's a shame, but Hamas came into office on the failures of Fatah, which the Israel and the U.S. while not solely responsible bear a great deal of responsibility in creating.

Someone should tell D.C. and Tel Aviv--if you keep building settlements you will undermine "moderates." If you continue to have 600+ checkpoints in the West Bank, and your client is aligned with you, that client's public will turn against him. It's not rocket science, but tell that to the "leaders" who keep deepening the occupation rather than removing settlements, checkpoints, and the wall in the West Bank.
Israel wall = British ports
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:56 pm (UTC)
Settlements in Judea and Samaria (Jewish land): Had Jordan (who occupyied the West Bank) not attacked (together with Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and other arab countries) - and lost the war, of course - there wouldn't be any settlement there. Jews fell in love with their lost cities - Jerusalem, Hebron, Bethlehem, with Judea and Samaria, stolen by arabs. Arabs could have had it "back" (I don't agree in giving Judea and Samaria to the Arabs) had mega terrorist Arafat agreed with Clinton and Rabin. Thank God he didn't (my opinion). The West Bank, Judea and Samaria, is Jewish land and alos a natural barrier against Jordan, Iraq and Iran.
checkpoints: You British have them in Iraq and Afghanistan too. In fact you have checkpoints at your ports and airports. Try entering Britain (if you are not a EU member), specially with a bomb. Well, checkpoints in Judea and Samaria are necessary to stop muslim terrorists suicide bombers, for preventing them from blowing themselves up in Tel-Aviv or other cities.
The wall / fence: A defensive policy against muslim suicide terrorists. You have your heavily guarded airports and ports in Britain, to keep out foreign workers and muslim terrorists.
Re: Israel wall = British ports - [info]be_just - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 09:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Israel wall = British ports - [info]chicharo - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Israel wall = British ports - [info]concretedave - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 10:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Israel wall = British ports - [info]freespeechlover - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:07 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]be_just wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 08:49 pm (UTC)
You cannot built a myth on injustice. The Palestinians exist and Palestine exist and justice will prevail. Palestine was not an empty land as some Zionists pionners were selling it. It still has traces of rich Palestinian culture deep inside what is now Israel.
But they still exist
[info]chicharo wrote:
Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 11:17 pm (UTC)
20% of Israel is arab. In Judea and Samaria, Jewish land previously under Jordanian arab control but now under Israel, thank God - they are neither Jordanian, nor Israeli citizens. Gaza: Is Judenrein.
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