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Ahmadinejad whips crowd to frenzy as opposition muzzled

As the nation tried to digest the results of this momentous poll, Robert Fisk saw two sides to the controversial winner

It was a surreal day, an ominous day in Tehran yesterday, of censored newspapers and of soft words and threats against Mahmoud Ahmedinejad's political opponent, Mirhossein Mousavi. We didn't even know where Mousavi was – in custody or house arrest – nor whether a hundred of his election campaign workers had been arrested. It was a day heavy with plain-clothes policemen, blocked roads and jeering supporters of the government. No, there will not be another revolution in Iran. But this is not quite the democracy that Ahmedinejad promised.

True, we met Ahmedinejad the Good yesterday, preaching to us at an elaborately-staged press conference, talking of the noble, compassionate, honourable, smart people of Iran. But we also met Ahmedinejad the Bad, swearing to thousands of baying supporters that he would name the "corrupt" men who had stood against him in Friday's election.

I'm still not at all sure we met President Ahmedinejad, always supposing we believe in the 63.62 per cent of the votes that he claims he picked up. For what do you make of a man who five times refers to the presidential poll as a football match and then utters – in front of us all – in the softest of voices and with the gentlest and most chilling of smiles, a terrible warning to the mysteriously absent Mousavi. "After a football match, sometimes people feel their side should have won and they get into their car outside and drive through a red light and they get a ticket from a policeman. He didn't wait for the red light to change. I am not at all happy that someone ignores the red light." We all drew in our breath.

Less than two hours later, before the sweating thousands of his supporters in Val-y-Asr Square, we saw Ahmedinejad the Bad. "They are branding us as liars and corrupt," he screamed. "But they are themselves corrupt. I am going to use my position as president to name these people..." The crowd roared its approval. Of course they did. They all held Iranian flags or pictures of their pious leader amid heavenly clouds.

The day started badly with another of those dangerous, frighteningly brief statements from Tehran's loquacious police commander, Bahram Radan. "We have identified houses which are bases for the political mobs." This was the only reference the authorities would make about the outrageous street battles in which Radan's black-clothed cops beat Mousavi's supporters insensible on the streets of Tehran.

Then there was the front page of "Etemade Melli" – "National Trust" in English – which belongs to another of Ahmedinejad's enemies, Mehdi Karoubi. After the election results at the top of the front page – Mousavi officially won only 33.75 per cent of the votes and Karoubi 0.85 per cent – there was a caption: "Regarding the election results," it read, "Mehdi Karoubi and Mirhossein Mousavi made statements which we cannot publish in our newspaper." Beneath was a vast acre of white space. You could doodle on it. You could construct a crossword on it. You could draw a red light on it. But you couldn't read those statements.

And just to rub home the message – which we heard in various forms all day – a postage-stamp size photograph of Tehran's cops running down a street appeared at the top of page two with two worrying sentences. "The Public Security Police have delivered a statement, stating that any kind of gatherings, demonstrations or celebrations without a licence are forbidden. Any kind of gathering would be unlawful and the consequences will lie on the shoulders of the candidates and their campaign offices." We all knew what that meant; indeed, we approached Ahmedinejad's press conference with the absolute conviction that there would be more threats; there were, but they couldn't have been made in a kinder, more sinister way.

He sat before a vast spray of red and white roses, his back to a poster of a snow-tipped mountain, an Iranian banner floating in front, his Humphrey Bogart jacket open, his special smile – the UN smile, the CNN smile, the humble worker smile, the sportsman smile, the wisdom smile, we all know it – amid his whiskered features. There were prayers. And then came Imam Ahmedinejad. The Iranian people won the elections. It was their role to rule. "In countries where there was liberal democracy, the people are pushed out of the system and the professionals take over but in Iran, a democracy rules which is based on ethics."

It went on like this for quite a while. Iran loved all peoples. It would help all peoples. Iranians loved each other. They were unified. They would always stand together. "We are a noble people, we are smart people and the Iranian people believe in right and righteousness. The Iranian people hate lies and are satisfied with their lot... but we stand up to bullies and arrogance... the Iranian people will never be afraid of threats," he continued.

Readers will decode this as they wish. Clearly Ahmedinejad had read through Barack Obama's Cairo speech very carefully – indeed, he sometimes sounded grotesquely like the American president – and some of his "change" motifs fit rather well with the new US administration.

Bullying was in the past. We needed dialogue with all issues on the table. Post-World War Two political systems had proved anti-humanitarian. "The time when a handful of countries came together to decide the fate of a smaller country was over. It is finished."

It seemed endless. Democracy, ethics, human values, welfare, confidence, mutual respect, justice, fair play... From time to time it sounded like an updated version of Plato's Republic with the unwilling philosopher king behind the red and white roses.

But there was that infuriating refusal to deal with physical realities. When I asked Ahmedinejad the Good if he remembered the young Iranian woman dragged screaming to the gallows a few weeks ago, pleading with her mother by mobile phone to save her life seconds before her neck was broken by the rope, and whether he would guarantee that such a terrible event would never be repeated in the Islamic Republic, he set forth on an exegesis of the Iranian legal system. "I am myself against capital punishment," he replied. "I do not want to kill even an ant. But the Iranian judiciary is independent." And then he promised to talk to the judiciary about softening punishments and thought Iranian judges would benefit from "dialogue" with their opposite numbers in Europe and America. But the young woman so cruelly executed – for a murder she may not have committed – had disappeared from his response. She wasn't an ant. She had been in the hands of Ahmedinejad's noble, caring, compassionate, just Iran.

Nor was Mousavi an ant when CNN's Christiane Amanpour demanded Ahmedinejad the Good's guarantee for his life and those of his supporters. That's when we got the bit about the red light and all that it represented. Amanpour repeated the question. "Perhaps I missed something in the translation of your reply," she said sarcastically. "Perhaps you missed the translation that you didn't ask for a second question," Ahmedinejad snapped back. "No," said the imperishable Amanpour," this isn't a second question. I'm repeating the first one!"

Useless, of course, especially when the Iranian and Arab journalists arrived with their fawning questions, always preceded by congratulations for Ahmedinejad's real or imagined victory. In fact, the most frustrating thing about this performance was that he kept praising the massive turnout on Friday – perhaps more than 80 per cent – as his personal victory. But it wasn't the enthusiasm to vote that proved his presidency. It was the nature of how the result was calculated that enraged so many of Ahmedinejad the Good's noble Iranians.

But then, as they say, the mask slipped. Down amid the hot crowds on Val-y-Asr square – the scene of a huge 1979 Revolution massacre – Ahmedinejad the Bad was with us, screaming of his victory in confronting America.

"The enemy is furious because the Iranian nation is firm in its ideology... I will do my best to make the imperial powers and governments bow before you and bow before the nation of Iran."

His hand went up and down like a see-saw and the men and chadored women – some brought into Tehran by bus from the countryside, I noted from the registration plates – shouted "Ahmadi-, Ahmadi-, we are supporting you." And back came the vaunted boast: "America and other countries, you threaten Iran and you'll get your answer!" That's when he said he'd name his enemies.

So is it peace or war? It rather depends whether it's Ahmedinejad the Good or Ahmedinejad the Bad, I suppose.

For Mousavi's fate, watch this space.

More from Robert Fisk

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Visas
[info]ejh16 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 07:36 am (UTC)
The other day, Mr Fisk wrote about the difficulty for journalists of obtaining visas. After this dispatch, I suspect he may have a few more interesting stories the next time he applies to enter Iran. http://theunpeople.blogspot.com/
Re: Visas
[info]rolleicanonikon wrote:
Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 03:50 pm (UTC)
The suggestion that Robert Fisk is a covert agent of the US is risible.
US covert operations in Iran
[info]peteloud wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:06 am (UTC)
It is very difficult for outsiders to assess what is happening in Iran. For several years the USA has had a strategy of covert operations in Iran. I would suggest people read an article by Seymour M. Hersh the The New Yorker, http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh/?yrail or do your own research with Google.

USA has a long record of carrying out covert operations in Central and South America with the objective of destabilising legitimate governments. The USA have funded and encouraged dissidents. It is standard practice for the CIA to feed propaganda to the media and create fake news agencies to disseminate propaganda.

A high proportion of news reports and interviews are with educated, pro-west, English speaking middle class Iranians. What we are seeing in news reports from Iran seems to be typical examples of US interference.

I am not trying to give support for Ahmedinejad, the point that I am trying to make is that the opinions being formed by people outside of Iran are probably primarily determined by American covert operations rather than the reality of the situation in Iran.

Re: US covert operations in Iran
[info]corporeal4now wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 09:42 am (UTC)

And the Americans wonder why the world doesn't love them!
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]luceew - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]corporeal4now - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:30 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]macrodoodle - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]luceew - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 05:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]corporeal4now - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:31 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]macrodoodle - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 12:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]corporeal4now - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 01:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]ydef - Wednesday, 24 June 2009 at 07:56 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US covert operations in Iran - [info]ligeia_bm - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Iran shows global need for fraud-proof election systems
[info]alexweir1949 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:27 am (UTC)
Iran shows global need for fraud-proof election systems

There exist such fraud-proof voting systems, but the West and China are terribly afraid of such systems, since they would eliminate pro-western dictators as well as anti-western dictators. Of the many many dictators globally (including the anti-western Ahmadinejad), 95% are pro-western dictators.

The west has resorted even to political assassination to keep such voting systems from seeing the light of day. But eventually justice, freedom, democracy and development will win out. Maybe Obama will have a hand in this, if he can cast off the very strong influence of the CIA, MI6, and Deuxieme Bureau.

Mr Alex Weir, Harare and Gaborone
Re: Iran shows global need for fraud-proof election systems
[info]libertarian09 wrote:
Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 04:58 am (UTC)
Democracy is a dream. Even without fraud in the voting process the elected will soon succumb to the lure of money and power. If not they just walk away in frustration trying to fight against the corrupt majority
Re: Iran shows global need for fraud-proof election systems - [info]ydef - Wednesday, 24 June 2009 at 07:59 am (UTC) Expand
The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad
[info]corporeal4now wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC)

Cant see what the fuss is about. Iran is not the richest country in the world. The majority are not rich. Ahmedinejad's energy revenues were helping the working class, so they voted for him. So the rich and upper middle class lost the elections -why make such a fuss when they have been out voted.
Re: The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad
[info]ligeia_bm wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:03 pm (UTC)
Exactly! This is the case in many countries in Latin America. The upper classes, used to rule (and not because they could win elections, but through coups or oiling hands with bribes) cannot stand that the dirty lower classes take their "rightful" places from them through something so silly as an election.
Re: The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad - [info]macrodoodle - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad - [info]corporeal4now - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 08:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad - [info]macrodoodle - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 12:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The working class (majority) voted Ahmedinejad - [info]macrodoodle - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 12:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Reminiscent of the coup in Venezuela
[info]cunningtourist wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 10:28 am (UTC)
What's happening in Iran seems very similar with what happened in Venezuela.
Re: Reminiscent of the coup in Venezuela
[info]ligeia_bm wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:13 pm (UTC)
Or Bolivia. Or Ecuador. Or Argentina. See, funnily enough, none of these countries align themselves with US politics and economic interests. Sounds familiar, right? So, when the minorities that favored the US interests lose power, they stage these huge marches, and call themselves "democrats", "defenders of freedom", and they call those who won elections "dictators", or claim frauds. We are expecting that these same kind of groups use these same arguments of fraud here in the upcoming elections in June 28. They are already talking of fraud, mind you, and the election hasn't yet happened. But truth is that the opposition has no proposals, except protesting the legitimacy of the government. They know that they can't win, polls prove this. Will this stop them? Of course, not. They have been trying to topple a legitimately elected government for the better part of 2008 and 2009. And they will continue to do so. Then we'll read and listen in the media about the fight of true freedom-loving democrats to restore the country to the rule of law. Which means that they'll try to bring back the illegitimate loans from dirty banks, and sell the country in small bits to the best bidder. Do you believe is it any different in Iran? Nope, they, the upper classes, want their privileges back.
Robert Fisk has lot balance
[info]tayeb786 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 10:54 am (UTC)
I am an admirer of Robert Fisk. He has always shown a balanced reporting of events. It seems he has lot his balance when iit concerns the recent events in Iran,

What is happening to his otherwise clear and well-written articles? What's wrong with Rober Fisk?

Has he become so-self centred that he has lost all the principles that a balanced journalist should exercise?

Why so many adjectives to describe the iranian president? Can't he name him without adjectives and make his points anyhow?

Really I am disappointed with Rober Fisk!

Tayeb - PORTUGAL
Re: Robert Fisk has lot balance
[info]rexxxxxxxx wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:05 pm (UTC)
I totally agree with you
This fisk rant has given me cause to review my opinion of him.
It is not his style

It reads like he is being manipulated in some way

Re: Robert Fisk has lot balance - [info]rolleicanonikon - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Liberal Democracy?
[info]bobav wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 11:40 am (UTC)
"In countries where there was liberal democracy, the people are pushed out of the system and the professionals take over but in Iran, a democracy rules which is based on ethics."

Unfortunately part of this statement is true. There is no model of a democracy that can be readily transferred to smaller, poorer (but resource rich), countries outside of the in-group of partner states that participate and benefit from the pseudo-democratic neo-capitalized system as it exists in practice.

If the recent wars in the Mid-east are not the best examples of this then one needn't look further than 19th and 20th century history to see it played out over and over again as a descendent of unreconstructed and only slightly "remodeled" colonialism. It is a system that sells its unrealistic growth paradigm to its own inhabitants through clever and manipulative capitalized mass media and an unhealthy, ecologically unwise, over-abundance of use of resources, goods and services that other, smaller, poorer, resource rich and geopolitically strategic states cannot realistically afford to even hope to attain.

These states certainly cannot even hope for more than a veneer of the kinds of democratic institutions that the partner states say are the cornerstone identifiers of these democratic partner states, and largely because the level of consumption inside the partner states, especially by the ruling oligarchies and the entertainment class (entertainment as the industry opiate of the masses?), demands a level of subservience from the second and third tier "supplier" nations that would not tolerate true autonomy and/or self reliance and control over the dwindling levels of natural resources (including manpower and capitalized war fodder)and geopolitical locations.

Hence, any states that hope for true autonomy and control over their own resources are bound to develop in ways that are antipathic to the stated foundations and philosophies of the capital and growth theocracy, aka "democracy", of the partner states.
Re: Liberal Democracy?
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 11:15 am (UTC)
You, my friend, really explained what I always had in mind but couldn't articulate, n' put it together like this!

This is very true! N' its sad that people don't seem to get that things aren't just white n' black, even Fisk himself!
Re: Liberal Democracy? - [info]bobav - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 05:19 pm (UTC) Expand
robert fisk covering iranian election
[info]jerusalem1 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 11:42 am (UTC)
I watched Mr Fisk's report yesterday on Al-Jazeera on Iranian election. I was shocked by his obsession with Israel, which he manages to squeeze into every story. Talking about Iranian nuclear porgramme he went into a lengthy tirade about Israel nuclear weapons and the stand-off between two countries, it looks like criticizing Israel is his reason d'etre.
The more he spoke about Israel the more he was becoming agitating and his face was getting redder. I apologize I have to say that , but the people who attack Israel on a daily basis look like very unhappy people with some inner problems... whenever they're talking about Israel, they nearly start shaking - Claire Short, Alistaire Crooke, Robert Fisk, a female reporter on Al-Jazeera, can't remember her name. They all look like clinical cases, they're so full of hatred, it's amazing!
I can't understand rally why a country of 6 mln people with a tiny patch of land brings up such strong emotions, is it because it's populated with Jews?
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election
[info]luceew wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:33 pm (UTC)
That's easy - you stole the land from the Palestinians and have persecuted them ever since. After you did that, you occupied and continued to steal their land, and that of the Syrians (Golan Heights) and Lebanon (Sheeba Farms - no need to go into your destruction during the wars you have raged with Lebanon). So if you wonder why so many of us choke on the world 'Israel' then it is you who is incapable of thinking outside the box. As for the rest of us, we have no sympathy for the position you find yourselves in now.
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]jerusalem1 - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]luceew - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 05:20 am (UTC) Expand
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]nazcalito - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]simonvianna - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: robert fisk covering iranian election - [info]libertarian09 - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 05:07 am (UTC) Expand
Poor English Yet Again
[info]mr_dave99 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 11:43 am (UTC)
I am getting really fed up the ever decreasing standards of English presented in this paper. It is fast becoming of equal quality to a tabloid with regards to the ability of it's journalists' English language. Although there are several errors in this piece, the following sentence takes the biscuit: "Useless, of course, especially when the Iranian and Arab journalists arrived with their fawning questions, always preceded by congratulations for Ahmedinejad's real or imagined victory." I had to read the piece again to try and figure out what the hell is supposedly "useless". Obviously, to no avail. Sort it out or soon enough I will be giving the paper to my Chinese students to correct, as I do with the tabloids, and they are kids.
Re: Poor English Yet Again
[info]teacherseven wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 12:10 pm (UTC)
Mr_Dave, you could always teach your Chinese students sensible comprehension and subsequent comment rather than pedantry.
Re: Poor English Yet Again - [info]rolleicanonikon - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 04:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poor English Yet Again - [info]matt2112 - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 12:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poor English Yet Again - [info]luceew - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:28 pm (UTC) Expand
We always go back and blame others. Monkey in one line. One tells other see his ass is black.
[info]famulla wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 12:46 pm (UTC)
We always go back and blame others. Monkey in one line. One tells other see his ass is black.
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla

The Ahmedinejad speech and presser
[info]antimatter wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 01:09 pm (UTC)
Some of his gestures and facial expressions reminded me of Bush---petulant, arrogant, proud, trying to charm, but knowing he had the advantage.
western propaganda
[info]petestevens wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 01:18 pm (UTC)
the western media is pushing the propaganda hard on this story. western multinational corporate interests are just wetting themselves in order to get a 'regime change' in iran. remember these things start slowly. you have to get the masses to support any kind of regime before it is undertaken. this is where these stories come on. this is all propaganda, no doubt deliberately started by western intelligence assets.
Eternal Martyrdom
[info]leokay wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 01:32 pm (UTC)
Jerusalem 1 can't understand " . . . why a country of 6 mln people with a tiny patch of land brings up such strong emotions, is it because it's populated with Jews?"

Senator Fullbright, Chair of Senate Foreign Relations Committee: 10/07/1973 on CBS' "Face the Nation".
"I am aware how almost impossible it is in this country to carry out a foreign policy [in the Middle East] not approved by the Jews..... terrific control the Jews have over the news media and the barrage the Jews have built up on congressmen .... I am very much concerned over the fact that the Jewish influence here is completely dominating the scene and making it almost impossible to get congress to do anything they don't approve of. The Israeli embassy is practically dictating to the congress through influential Jewish people in the country"

And in the UK do the three major parliamentary parties have 'Friends of Oz' or 'Friends of NZ' or 'Friends of Canada' in their ranks? After all those countries sacrificed their blood in fighting wars alongside Britain. Not bloody likely. But they are infested with 'Friends of Israel' a country which was founded on terrorism and political blackmail.

Does that answer your question, jerusalem 1??????
Re: Eternal Martyrdom
[info]jerusalem1 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:05 pm (UTC)
It doesn't leokay. Fulbright said this in 1973, did you notice it's 2009? My questions are rhetorical , do you think I'm expecting answers, or don't know what the quoters of Fulbright solliloquys will have to say?
If you think that your country or US are ruled by the Jews - then you insult the intelligence of your own countrymen and US citizens. You can't be that primitive and stupid to be ruled by other people, who make less than 1 % of UK population? Really, one Jew per 200 Britishers - are you what a herd of cows? Amercians are bleating lambs?
Arenj't you ashamed of such statement? Next thing you have to say then is that MPs paid their expenses from state coffers because Jews corrupted them or Friends of Israel, correct?
Re: Eternal Martyrdom - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 04:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Eternal Martyrdom - [info]smoothop8388 - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 11:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Eternal Martyrdom - [info]simonvianna - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:55 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]truthfest wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 01:33 pm (UTC)
A few days ago, Mr Fisk described Ahmadinijad as ''unbalanced''. I was not sure how he reached that diagnosis. Does he know the man or has he reached that understanding through what he reads in the press. No doubt Mr Fisk knows the power of words. It reflected badly on him to describe the elected leader of another country in such derogatory terms. It reveals the sort of contempt and prejudice at the heart of western opinion and used to justify the exploitation and aggression inflicted on various peoples in the world.

You can see a common trend in all the news outlet to discredit the election process that has just taken place. This will set the tone for the next set of accussations against Iran as part of the ultimate agenda to commit unprovoked aggression against her. Just note how the word dictatorship is creeping into the commentary. Scary stuff.

Why the obsession with Iran. Could it be because the west do not currently have absolute control over its natural resources?.

It is clear that nothing has changed. The only thing that has prevented Iran from being attacked so far, is a perceived degree of ability to defend herself. That ability is the only thing that will prevent mass killing of Iranians as is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Iranians should beware of what they wish for.


US electirc chair is worse than Iranian hanging
[info]edwod wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 01:45 pm (UTC)
At least the guiltly woman had a mobile, something US government does not give to those it tortures in Guatanamo Bay. It does not even give them any court trials.

Fisk, of course, would not be given this sort of oppertunity to grill the US President in any press conference. Only in Iran do reporters have this freedom to directly put the leader on the spot. Fisk should have thanked Iran leader for this freedom. Also, Iran system is more humane than frying the brain for 30 mins on an electric chair.
[info]corcaighrebel32 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:11 pm (UTC)
Funny how Revolutions eventually consume their own, the Iranian election and subsequent fall out mark the beginning of the end for the current Iranian regime.

As Edward Gibbon pointed out in the 'Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire', Empires crumble from within, nor can you hold back a people, an idea, or spirit with an undercover policeman's baton.........the British tried it in Ireland but eventually they too got on their little boats and rowed out to their battleships never to return..............and so it will come to pass with all the current 'Empires', they will come and go like the setting of the run and flow of the river...........until one day the people's of the earth unite under a common banner of friendship, respect and equality either that or we will destroy ourselves as a species - the choice, as they say, is ours. I pray for the former.
Iran and Obama
[info]rationalist99 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC)
I had hoped the Iranian people would make a clean break with the past since Khomeini?s regime was a disaster.

The Iranian Government under Ayatolla Khomeini killed about 150,000 people.
This is more than the number of all people killed in all the Arab/Israeli wars combined.
Many of them incidentally were leftists who actually helped Khomeni into power.
Khomeni also made marriageable age of girls in Iran 9 and personally married a ten year old in imitation of Mohammed?s marriage to Aisha.

As well as turning Iran into a theocratic torture chamber he legalised paedophilia.

Change now seems unlikely since, of 4000 people who applied to stand in the election, only 4 were approved by the Council of Guardians and 5 million people were disenfranchised by the Ministry of Interior.
See Amir Taheri in today?s Times for further details.




Incidentally, I found much of Robert Fisk?s approval for Obama?s speech at Al-Azhar University in Cairo excessive. I found the Obama speech quite disappointing. It was as notable for the issues it failed to address and for the issues it did address.For instance, he painted a rosy picture of Islam by quoting the Koran 5:32
whoever kills an innocent, it is as if he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a person, it is as if he has saved all mankind
He failed to quote the next verse of the Koran. 5:33.
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
His omission fails to address the role of Islam in creating theocratic tyrannies.
He seems to regard the Palestinians as the only oppressed people in the world.
He failed to mention the plight of the Copts in Egypt of Assyrian Chaldean Christians, often treated as second class citizens.
There was a good critique of his speech in the National Review Magazine.

For instance, Joshua Muravchik?s piece reports that Copts are barred from attending Al-Azhar University even though they make up 10% of the population of Egypt and pay more than 10% of the nation?s taxes to fund the running of the University.

Western academics who are constantly demanding a boycott of Israeli academic institution should be on this right?
We can look forward to a boycott of Egyptian academic institutions ?
Re: Iran and Obama
[info]goatbucket wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 04:04 pm (UTC)
You can boycott Egyptian academia if you want - you don't seem to be very academic from your previous posts on this site - deeply unpleasant racist would seem to be a more accurate description of you.

There may well be some lack of truth to Muravchik's article, of course. That you support it seems a good indication of that...
Re: Iran and Obama - [info]rationalist99 - Monday, 15 June 2009 at 05:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Iran and Obama - [info]goatbucket - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 06:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poor English Yet Again
[info]mr_dave99 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:21 pm (UTC)
matt2112. I concur with your general point, however, I do not think that it is pedantic to criticise a sentence that does not make any sense. I think, for exanple, that it would have been pedantic for me to criticise typing errors. I do, of course, apologise wholeheartedly for my own grammatical typo. I don't know why I bothered to be honest, I never usually post comments (and I certainly didn't know that people bothered reading them), I've had a bad week and I should have been in bed hours ago.

teacherseven. Ironically enough I don't really know what you mean, but I refer you to my reply above regarding being pedantic. Intersestingly enough, in my experience, students learing English as a second language are very pedantic indeed. It can be a problem. Although I wonder if that is a part of the reason why so many speakers of English as a second language speak it so much better than a great many native speakers. Just a thought.
Re: Poor English Yet Again
[info]mr_dave99 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 02:35 pm (UTC)
Damn it. Interestingly enough; another typo.
consistency please, Robert !
[info]gampel wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:25 pm (UTC)
based on what your friend - who never lied to you - and today's washinton's post article by ballen and doherty "the iranian people speak" (as far as its content is correct, a point on which i would very much like to have your view) I have some difficuty to understand your recent articles.
the evolution of a revolution
[info]moe_nasser wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:41 pm (UTC)
what is the alternative ,is the question that begs an answer ,will iran go back to the days of the shah where an election like this would have either been annuled by an american backed regime,or maybe a 99% vote for the president ,without a whisper from the opposition .if there was an opposition.
what is happening in iran despite all the bad press,were getting before and after the elections ,by regional standards very healthy.look around the region mr fisk ,this is no by election in norwich ,which despite all its significance to the opposing parties ,will hardly change our lives .in iran ,in the gulf,in many nations in the region ,the outcome of an election could change everything ,from a job ,to a way of life ,to the death of a revolution.
iran is not ready for that ,ahmadnajat might have won the election ,but the birth of a new movement
from the loss of mussawi's reform movement will one day lead to a just iran or atleast a more pragmatic iran that is to the benefit to all the region.
so dont push mussawi ,or hijack his movement ,let the evolution of irans revolution manifest
the propaganda machine marches on
[info]moe_nasser wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 03:52 pm (UTC)
did the kafa movement dispute the election results in husni mubarak's egypt after a 99% victory ,or in butuflikas algeria ,or after kuwaits prince desolved parliament and brought back his cronies,or when the baath party in syria extended the state of emergency,to hold on to power ,or when the vote of a million palestinians or what you like to call 48 arabs ,cant equal the vote of 100000 orthodox in israel,and when most of their deputies where at one time mostly in jail.
was christian amanpour ,or your self able to ask questions as such to the king of saudi arabia ,about beheading ,or safety guarantees to opposition members.
bias bias
Re: the propaganda machine marches on
[info]simonvianna wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 06:01 pm (UTC)
What are you talking about? How dare you compare Israel with all those arab dictatorships? In Israel (I am not talking about disputed Samaria and Judea, once stolen by arabs, then part of Jordan, that attacked Israel and lost it). Arabs, 20% of the population of Israel, have the right to vote. One vote per citizen, for arabs and Jews, women or men. In theory there can be an arab prime minister in Israel. Actualy there are arab members of parliament. The only place in the ME where arabs can vote (including women) for their leader is in Israel. Syria, Lybia, Somalia, Sudan, Lebanon, Algeria, Iraq... A few of the 22 arab countries, all bloody dictatorships of medieval kingdoms like Saudi Arabia. Israel is not the problem of the ME. Lack of freedom and democarcy and Islam is.
Re: the propaganda machine marches on - [info]libertarian09 - Tuesday, 16 June 2009 at 04:43 am (UTC) Expand
A Mad...
[info]kuma2000 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 06:48 pm (UTC)
Looks like Iran finally got the Shah back... But even with Ahmadinejad out the way the Iranians have that Ayatollah nutter to get rid of...
Delara Darabi
[info]iranian11 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 07:58 pm (UTC)
I wathced the press conference live. When Robert Fisk raised the question about Delara Darabi (the executed accused child offender), I thought at least someone brought up a real issue affecting the Iranian people. The Islamic Republic has registered one of the highest exeutions in the world for many years (including child offenders) and the increased rate of executions under Ahmadinejad has been going aginst the worldwide trend. Thank you Robert.
Iranian Elections
[info]jogil415 wrote:
Monday, 15 June 2009 at 09:41 pm (UTC)
As always, Fisk captures the reality of this happening.
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