Robert Fisk: Democracy will not bring freedom
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So they voted. But for what? Democracy? Certainly not "Jeffersonian" democracy, as President Obama reminded us. Yes, the Afghans wanted to vote. They showed great courage in the face of the Taliban's threats. But there's a problem.
It's not just the stitched-up Karzai administration that will almost certainly return, nor the war criminals he employs (Abdul Rashid Dostum should be in the dock at The Hague for war crimes, not in Kabul), nor the corruption and the hideous human rights abuses, but the unassailable fact that ethnically-divided societies vote on ethnic lines.
I doubt if anyone in Afghanistan voted yesterday because of the policies of their favourite candidate. They voted for whoever their ethnic leaders told them to vote for. Hence Karzai asked Dostum to deliver him the Uzbek vote. Abdullah Abdullah relies on the Tajik vote, Karzai on the Pashtuns.
It's always the same. In Iraq, the Shia voted in a Shia government. And in Lebanon, Sunni Muslims and a large section of the Christian community voted to keep the Shia out of power. This is not confined to the Muslim world. How many Northern Ireland Protestants vote for Sinn Fein?
But our problem in Afghanistan goes further than this. We still think we can offer Afghans the fruits of our all-so-perfect Western society. We still believe in the Age of Enlightenment and that all we have to do is fiddle with Afghan laws and leave behind us a democratic, gender-equal, human rights-filled society.
True, there are brave souls who fight for this in Afghanistan – and pay for their struggle with their lives – but if you walk into a remote village in, say, Nangarhar province, you can no more persuade its tribal elders of the benefits of women's education than you could persuade Henry VIII of the benefits of parliamentary democracy. Thus the benefits we wish to bestow upon the people of Afghanistan are either cherry-picked (the money comes in handy for the government's corrupt coffers and the election reinforces tribal loyalties) or ignored. In the meantime, Nato soldiers go on dying for the pitiful illusion that we can clean the place up. We can't. We are not going to.
In the end, the people of these foreign fields must decide their own future and develop their societies as and when they wish. Back in 2001, things were different. Had we hoovered up every gun in the land, we might have done some good. Instead, the Americans sloshed millions of dollars at the mass murderers who had originally helped to destroy the place so that they would fight on our side.
Then we wandered off to Iraq and now we are back to fight in Afghanistan for hopelessly unachievable aims. Yes, I like to see people – women and men – voting. I think the Afghans wanted to vote. So, too, the Iraqis. But they also want freedom. Which is not necessarily the same as democracy.
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Comments
You make some reasonable points, but the above is not one of them.
I remember it getting covered in the papers at the time and being shocked, but we all learnt from the way the anti-war demonstration was ignored that we have no say.
opinions are highly respected, even if they're unhealthy ones. Grandpa knows best!
Even in more mondane countries like the Lebanon, old men rule the roost, and they live rather long
lives. Leadership is perpetuated in a dynastical way, thus paving the way for
the same families to continue running the country. There' a western veneer in that elections DO take
place, but it's usually with families (tribal ones in more rural places) participating.
A quick look at the region in countries like Egypt, Libya, Syria....and Iraq of Saddam Hussein's days whose sons would have taken over had not the country been invaded. .....
and one knows Middle East history - past, present. . . and future.
and one is enlightened!
Being ruled by an elder isn't so bad when the elder has the strength to hold his position and the good will of his "people" as his fixed goal. Sort of a scaled-down philosopher king, as it were. And believe it or not, these people do exist, but their numbers are few as is their strength. We would do better to seek out these people and reinforce them in their own communities, so that we could start a "grassroots" change rather than changing from the top down (which we can clearly see, isn't working).
Once prosperity comes to those communities that uphold emancipation of women, etc., then two things will happen: (1) some groups will want it for themselves and seek to emulate it, and (2) other groups will become frightened of the shift in power and try to destroy it. Then it is up to the groups on the ground to defend themselves, perhaps with our help, perhaps not, to and to force the other groups to back down. There is no other way to effectively create change in a foreign land.
When democracy come (as is Palestine ,People elected Hamas) under UN rules;all the world came against them,PA leader Abass is illegal leader since 8 moths,taking the people to no where;but the world support him..! I can not believe the hypocrisy in this...! democracy means what?
It is what USA/west/Israel want,if it suit them;then this is democracy..!
Let democracy do well in USA/west then apply it in east..,this is masked democracy,using "Blind Power " while they (blinds) are not knowing who is the minsters ?Educate (B.P) in the west/usa before you say "democracy"...!
Lies every where as O.Orwell said:
The one who control the past ,control present and the future...! history teach us how to see those who lie on US......!
And yet, where we believe in universal human rights, I can't agree with Robert Fisk that it can be entirely up to "decide their own future and develop their societies as and when they wish." Because what happens, as in Afghanistan, when so many people, such as the poor and the female population, and indeed anyone without access to guns and money, effectively have no say? Invasion is not the answer - and it is dreadful so many British soldiers have been sacrificed on the false altar of the god of liberal democracy, along with thousands of Afghan civilans and other coalition troops - but equally to wash your hands of the rights of the persecuted on the grounds that it is up to societies to go their own way regardless is no answer either.
I decided to do this;what do you think?
I already decided this...
In London demonstration against the war on Iraq,1000,000 were protesting..!what tony Blair did ?
he went to war based on leis, it was iligal,unethical and unjustified....!
Ours being the one were we are governed by an unelected Prime Minister who leads a Government that promises referendums that don't happen, who leads a Government that "lead" us into wars that MILLIONS of marched to say we wanted no part of.
How is ours the model of a Democracy that we should enforce upon others, are we not led by "Warlords" who are following illegal & immoral paths, paved with the blood of our youths and loved ones, in order to ensure that we maintain open the conduit of finance from the greater "Warlords".
The reason that the people of our country are turning up to vote in ever dwindling numbers is because we feel disenfranchised, we have been let down time and time again by our "democratically elected" leaders. The non-vote needs to be examined and counted as much as does the vote.
Sadly though, what is our alternative? We have none. Because those who wish to be in power are all too often exactly those who should not be in power, witness the self serving expenses scandal that is on-going in the UK. If that were to happen in a none G8 country, then it would have been decryed as corruption - and if we were none G8 then we would possibly have to suffer an invasion of a group of foreign soldiers from a set of different countries that would claim to be blindly killing our civilians and stripping our land of any available mineral resources whilst stating that they are doing so to remove our unelected leaders in order to restore our "Democracy".
What a beautiful democracy we live in.
No one in this country can be classed as a Warlord as they lack a private army.
"How many Northern Ireland Protestants vote for Sinn Fein?"
How many 'working class' vote Conservative?
How many rednecks vote Democrat?
All is clear now; it's an illusion. Smoke and mirrors.
Unfortunately, millions of them. Otherwise they'd never get into power, ever. The working class is the largest social grouping in the UK, and The Sun has done pretty well at convincing the dumber sections of this class to vote Tory on many occasions. I agree, getting the working class to vote Tory (or Nu-Tory) is like getting turkeys to vote for christmas but some do.....
In the end, the people of these foreign fields must decide their own future and develop their societies as and when they wish."
To bring freedom to a country is not by imposing upon them "democracy" in a snap of fingers (the equivalent of a few years in that case) and then leave them behind. you actually have to stay in the country, learn about its people and history. see what's in their best interest, not yours.
it's to adapt whatever idea we may have to their situation.
it is to become truly one of them. and that takes at least 30 years...
If "the people of these foreign fields must decide their own future", it's going to be a very slow process, we might not even witness its benefits.
it starts with the youth. to put into practise what they want, and then to teach it to their children, and so on until it becomes part of who they are.
if we want something done, we'll have to wait for it. in other words be patient.
In theory, people are equal under tribal law unless the leadership is corrupt. Murder is murder and theaft is theaft. The same applies to a democracy. Look at the grand theaft that has taken place in the banking system but how many people have been brought to account?
Topology has an effect on ideology. Afganistan is one of the most mountainous countries populated by some of the most uneducated people in the world. Are they going to be able to make an informed choise as who to elect and the relative merits of capitalism and socialism?
Firstly, We are in our current mess because of, so-called, experts.
Second, We can take the obvious step that governments everywhere can take, but wont, to improve our lives. That is to stop interfering in them.
Un-requested help, backed by military force is not help.
Whilst what is done is done we can learn. So no more Afghanistan's / Iraq's or similar military adventures should be our long term goal, in the short term disengage and withdraw is what I would do
the best way to revenge from both(Babylonians and Roman) is by making both to fight each others.
As in Afghanistan,Iran,Iraq, then when final stage comes in Roman Empire.
Wait and see...!
So, you are saying what? In life, if you personally find a task looks daunting you would not attempt it? I can imagine there are a lot of people out there that do have that philosophy but coming from a so called top journalist it is just pathetic. Is that really how far our once great country has gone down the pan? How about some alternatives? Oh yes, I forgot, there are none. Ok, lets do nothing, and see what happens. Flamin' hell, if that is where the great British public really are, God help them. Stand up and be counted. What do you believe in? Then do something about it.
I have heard nothing from our brave soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan other than believing they are achieving something positive for the people of the country, albeit with poor resources. I would rather trust them than a rich columnist swanning around the safe areas of Kabul with his entourage.
Now, I know I am not there, and I know Robert Fisk sometimes is (we are led to believe). So we should believe some of what he says,ahem! However, I am very sceptical that what is portrayed is true, especially as some of you fat sofa gurus come up with supporting garbage for your journalistic heroes, based on what? Your own experiences of life? Your own knowledge of the country? Your deep understanding of inter-tribal relationships and geo-politics? Based on what? Mr. Fisk and his cohorts' titbits? Just look at the length of this piece again and what it says, its pitiful.
Here is one for you, I was sent to Cyprus in 1974, when the Turks invaded as part of a military effort to protect British interests on the island. A well known journalist in a respected British newspaper sent a story from his comfortable hotel room in Nicosia to the effect that our troops (in fact my unit) had been attacked by Turkish ground attack aircraft. Funny that, we never saw a single aircraft. He had reported a so called fact without researching it. I have many similiar examples where newspapers have got things so wrong the end product is as much fantasy. Why, because some journalists are so bone idle, so arrogant they cannot be bothered to listen, to investigate, and in this case not even bothered to offer a balanced view or even an interesting perspective. did you know for example the vast majority of newspaper people telephone police stations and hospitals and interview "spolespersons" by telephone rather than visiting them and making proper notes. The end product? Think about it.
So, my point is, do not believe everything you read, especially in this rag.
If Mr. Fisk knows as much about the middle east as he implies, why does he not have some views which would reflect this knowledge, instead of just beating the negativity drum. What is your point, do you have a solution? if no solution, are there any points which, in your vast experience of the area you could enlighten us, the military and poiticians?
What will you be writing about in the future if the elections permitted the Taliban to return to governance? I'll tell you, you would be criticising the west for not helping the Afghan women with the opportunity of education, you would be railing against America and the UK for supporting a regime which supports barbaric torture and immorality which most muslims do not countenance. So what is your point? you are the so called expert in this theatre, what do you think should be done? Please enlighten us.
This kind of journalism sucks, is cheap and unproffesional. once again the editor has permitted a piece rubbish to be printed without proof reading. ....and those of you who support it regardless of you views on the actual subject, are pathetic, get a life.
When the public conversation starts dealing directly with the real reasons for these disastrous incursions into the lives and deaths and lands of some the world's most voiceless and wounded populations, then we might actually be able to start building widespread and equality-based dialogue that is the cornerstone of any true democratic reform that is not merely window dressing on a perpetual slum of suffering and vicitimization.
For now we have Mr. Fisk to remind of these things and we ought to be grateful.
"Democracy will not bring freedom" you do not have to leave our shores to know this, simply look around.
If you require a graphic illustration of this then simply stand in the rubble of some bombed out Afghan village and say "Si monumetun requiris circumspice." (If you seek a monument, look around)
We have neither created or sustained either democracy or freedom, simply created ruin.
There is no way that a western template will work at the moment, these countries are far too divided for it to work, tribal loyalties come first, then religious loyalties, then regional loyalties. The idea of a united country is way down the list, if not completely of the radar. We were lucky in the west that we realised that peace was good for business, so democracy had a chance of working.
The first step is to get the people of countries like Afghanistan, Iraq and many of the African countries to stop killing people who don't agree with your view. Until that happens you are getting nowhere.