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Robert Fisk: Fear has gone in a land that has tasted freedom

In defiance of the ban on foreign reporters, The Independent's Middle East correspondent ventures out to witness an extraordinary stand-off on the streets of Tehran

Supporters of Mirhossein Mousavi protest on the streets of Tehran yesterday

AP

Supporters of Mirhossein Mousavi protest on the streets of Tehran yesterday

The fate of Iran rested last night in a grubby north Tehran highway interchange called Vanak Square where – after days of violence – supporters of the official President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at last confronted the screaming, angry Iranians who have decided that Mirhossein Mousavi should be the president of their country. Unbelievably – and I am a witness because I stood beside them – just 400 Iranian special forces police were keeping these two armies apart. There were stones and tear gas but for the first time in this epic crisis the cops promised to protect both sides.

"Please, please, keep the Basiji from us," one middle-aged lady pleaded with a special forces officer in flak jacket and helmet as the Islamic Republic's thug-like militia appeared in their camouflage trousers and purity-white shirts only a few metres away. The cop smiled at her. "With God's help," he said. Two other policemen were lifted shoulder-high. "Tashakor, tashakor," – "thank you, thank you" – the crowd roared at them.

This was phenomenal. The armed special forces of the Islamic Republic, hitherto always allies of the Basiji, were prepared for once, it seemed, to protect all Iranians, not just Ahmadinejad's henchmen. The precedent for this sudden neutrality is known to everyone – it was when the Shah's army refused to fire on the millions of demonstrators demanding his overthrow in 1979.

Yet this is not a revolution to overthrow the Islamic Republic. Both sets of demonstrators were shouting "Allahu Akbar" – "God is Great" – at Vanak Square last night. But if the Iranian security forces are now taking the middle ground, then Ahmadinejad is truly in trouble.

As the fume-filled dusk fell over the north Tehran streets, the crowds grew wilder. I listened to a heavily bearded Basiji officer exorting his men to assault the 10,000 Mousavi men and women on the other side of the police line. "We must defend our country now, just as we did in the Iran-Iraq war," he shouted above the uproar. But the Ahmadinejad man trying to calm him down, shouted back: "We are all fellow citizens! Let's not have a tragedy. We must have unity."

Clearly the decision of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to instruct the Council of Guardians to recount Friday's election vote had done nothing to dispel the suspicion and anger of the reformist opposition in Iran.

First it appeared that the council would examine every election result. Then only a few. Then Iranians were told that it might take 10 days to learn their decision. It was as well, perhaps, that Ahmadinejad had flown to Yekaterinburg for the Shanghai summit to bore conference delegates with his speeches instead of the Iranian people whom he believes he represents. But on Vanak Square last night, all this meant nothing.

Plain-clothes cops – perhaps at last realising the gravity of a situation which their own obedience to Ahmadinejad's men had brought about – persuaded middle-aged men from both sides to meet in the centre of the road in the middle of Vanak Square's narrow no-man's-land. The Mousavi man, in a brown shirt, placed his hands around the arms of the bearded Iranian official from the Ahmadinejad side. "We cannot allow this to happen," he told him. And he tried, as any Muslim does when he wants to show his desire for trust and peace, to kiss the side of his opponent's face. The bearded man physically shook him off, screaming abuse at him.

The two rows of police were now standing shoulder to shoulder, their linked arms holding both mobs back, as they stared at their own comrades opposite with ever increasing concern. An American-Iranian a few metres away, shouted at me in English that "we've got to prove they can't do this anymore. They can't rule us. We need a new president. Either they get their way or we get ours".

It was frightening, the absolute conviction of these men, the total refusal to accept any compromise, one side demanding obedience to the words of Ayatollah Khomeini and loyalty to the ghosts of the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, the other – emboldened by their million-strong march on Monday – demanding freedoms, albeit within an Islamic Republic, which they had never had before. Maybe they now have the police on their side; if last night's example was anything to go by, either some senior officer – or perhaps the cops themselves, appalled at their behaviour over the past four days – decided that the special forces would no longer be patsies to the frightening power of Ahmadinejad's ever-loyal bullies.

Only hours earlier, seven men killed by the Basiji at the end of Monday's march, were secretly buried by police in Cemetery 257, a large graveyard close to the Khomeini shrine, where the founder of the Islamic Revolution lies beneath a mosque of golden cupolas and blue-tiled walls. No such honours for the seven victims of the Basiji. They lay beneath a covering of earth, no markers on their graves, no word sent to their families of their fate.

But the pro-government newspapers in Tehran did report their deaths and one even gave its front page to the outraged condemnation of Tehran University's Chancellor at the Basiji intrusion onto the campus on Sunday night, when the security forces killed seven young men, wounded several others and smashed and looted the university dormitories. Farhad Rabar said he would pursue the killers through the courts, adding that "the invasion of the University of Tehran, which is the symbol of higher education... has caused a wave of sorrow and anger in me".

Is it too late to end this fratricidal violence now? For each side, the integrity of their cause is fast becoming more powerful than rational dialogue. The freedom which Mousavi's supporters have tasted – to ignore and disregard and despise the clerical autocracy which has so humiliated them – is now so intoxicating that they are confronting their political enemies in the street with a strange, unnerving, but genuine humour.

At one point last night, men and women wearing the green ribbons of Mousavi's election stood on the pavement beside that chilling 100 metres of no-man's-land next to chadored ladies clutching the Iranian flag – Ahmadinejad's patriotic symbol. They even chatted about the outcome of this fearful confrontation between their two sides.

It was a different narrative three hours earlier when Ahmadinejad's men and women held their own demonstration in Val-y-Asr Square. No word was said of Monday's opposition mass rally, nor of the street demonstrations in the cities of Shiraz, Mashad, Babol and Tabriz. Indeed, most Iranians have no knowledge of these events; Ahmadinejad's censors have seen to that. The banners were predictable. "Death to the Traitor" – Mousavi, of course, was the "betrayer" of the Republic. "Death to anyone who is against the Supreme Leader" – which was a bit odd because neither Mousavi nor his millions of supporters are against Ayatollah Khamenei (albeit that the two men dislike each other); it is Ahmadinejad for whom they have a visceral hatred and whom they are trying to depose.

The former parliamentary speaker, Gholamali Haddadadel, spotted Mousavi's weakest argument when he addressed a crowd that could not have been more than 5,000 strong. "Does Mousavi know how many people voted for Ahmadinejad in the rural areas and in the villages?" he asked. "Iran is not just Tehran. We know that Mr Mousavi got 13 million votes, but Mr Ahmadinejad got 24 million." But of course, those are the very statistics which Mousavi and his allies dispute. Preachers and Sayads lectured the little multitude, their bodyguards – even paramedics – keeping careful watch over them. There was a famous Iranian religious singer to preach to this banner-shrouded audience.

It was on my way out of Val-y-Asr that I noticed a truckload of men, all dressed in camouflage trousers and white shirts, many carrying police clubs, setting off to north Tehran. They were followed by the newly energised Islamist demonstrators, off on the four-mile trek up to Vanak. Two conscript soldiers were standing amid the Mousavi supporters there when an old man asked their advice. Should he stay if the Basijis break through the cordon? "The Basijis beat people hard – very hard," one of the soldiers said. And he patted the old man on the shoulder and shook his head.

More from Robert Fisk

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whats wrong with fisk?
[info]weir1917 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:30 am (UTC)
What? Fisk wants dialouge when there is a revolution going on? Dont you want the iranian people to be free? Why are you so scared of people seeking freedom? It is a beautiful thing - even the mass rioting, looting and burning of buildings i a beautiful thing. As an iranian im very dissapointed with this article.
Re: whats wrong with fisk?
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:21 am (UTC)
Fisk has gone around the bend. He doesn't "want" dialogue, he's saying that the fact that the military and police are trying to get the two sides to kiss & make up is "bad news for Ahmadinejad." The security forces very wisely averted a battle between the Mousavi supporters and those of Ahmadinejad who vastly outnumbered them. It would have been a bloodbath. It didn't happen. For Fisk, that's "bad news" for the regime.

The crazy coot thinks that the army preventing a street war is the same thing as the army joining the anti-Shah revolt.

Ahmadinejad is so unconcerned about Mousavi's crappy little "green revolution" that he's in Russia.
Re: whats wrong with fisk? - [info]jaded63 - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:48 pm (UTC) Expand
Another White Revolution
[info]brain4reason wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:44 am (UTC)
After Bush approved CIA Covert Ops in Iran in May of 2007, I think this whole thing reeks of the same uprising as the Shah's "White Revolution". I'm reading your book, "Great War for Civilization" which is great so far. I have to say though, the US has never had the Iranian people's interest at hand. Then all of a sudden they put this uprising all over the news when much larger uprisings with many more deaths are occurring in Peru (going unreported) against American and Canadian corporations.

Something is fishy, and history is there for a reason. To learn from places like: Iran (Mossadegh removed from power by Op. Ajax), Iraq (democracy ended by support of Saddam), Venezuela (democracy almost ended by similar revolution backed by covert ops), Nicaragua (support of dictator by who else?), Saudi Arabia (many revolutions crushed and unreported), etc. etc. etc.

A few years ago in Uzbekistan, an uprising was crushed by a real dictator, which went unreported on the news (many people were killed). I think an Iranian Civil War or another puppet government that would allow a military base like the ones in Iraq and Afghanistan would be in Israel's best interest to stop Iran's nuclear program and to remain the only power in the Middle East.
Re: Another paranoid
[info]salahidin wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 02:52 am (UTC)
This is about Iranians fighting for their own freedom. Do not overestimate the CIA. Furthermore, Iranian reformist have no intention to stop their Nuclear research.
Re: History Repeats Itself - [info]brain4reason - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 07:20 am (UTC) Expand
[info]weir1917 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:49 am (UTC)
Why does Fisk want dialouge when there is a revolution going on? Does Fisk not want the iranian people to be free? Why be scared of whats happening? Its a beautiful thing - all of it. Even the violence and the burning, but especially just the people, finally, moving, taking control of their own lives and future. Its beautiful. As an iranian im very dissapointed by this article.

By the way, just because they shout "allah akbar!" doesnt mean that they dnt want the whole system gone.
[info]duncanmcfarlane wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:23 am (UTC)
Weir - Why are you misunderstanding or trying to misrepresent Robert Fisk? He has not said he doesnt want a revolution. He's reported what he actually saw - that both sides want an Islamic Republic but one side sees that as including free speech, democracy, an end to morality police, a free media and elected officials having control of the police and courts.

Violence is not a beautiful thing as you would know if you were on the recieving end of it instead of sitting safely thousands of miles away - and its not a beautiful thing for the eight people killed so far. If democratic reforms can be gained without huge numbers of deaths it will be a lot better than the massacres of hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) by both sides in Iraq.
(no subject) - [info]duncanmcfarlane - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:24 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]syntheto - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:48 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]duncanmcfarlane - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:06 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]chanch5 - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:58 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]duncanmcfarlane - Thursday, 18 June 2009 at 12:33 am (UTC) Expand
He's a journalist
[info]drumnace wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:27 am (UTC)
Fisk's message boards will always be a battleground for war in the Middle East (albeit an abstract and often extremist one), but can't we agree that Mr Fisk is giving us a first-hand account from the streets of Tehran, providing information on only what he sees, hears and experiences. This is a reporter's job in these intense days of Tehran's public struggle and I thank him for providing this insight from which a picture can be formed by more people around the world on the truth of events and wider geopolitical matters.
Why does Robert Fisk never actually use negative words towards Ahmadinejad?
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:46 am (UTC)
Are Robert Fisk's buddies/"supporters" in the Arab country he lives urging him not to insult Ahmadinejad or something?

I've never seen a writer who speaks about the middle east as often as Robert Fisk does seemingly go out of his way to never utter a strong negative word towards Ahmadinejad.
Re: Why does Robert Fisk never actually use negative words towards Ahmadinejad?
[info]naeldwyck wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC)
Try to understand the difference between a report and an opinion piece, and you'll understand why.
[info]weir1917 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:59 am (UTC)
Im not missrepresenting Fisk. I was talking about these qoutes. Very dissapointing. I dont want dialouge with a bleeding dictatorship!

"It was frightening, the absolute conviction of these men, the total refusal to accept any compromise"

"For each side, the integrity of their cause is fast becoming more powerful than rational dialogue."

Also its not true that the protestors dont want revolution - i have heard it said myself a million time that thats what they want.

And lastly; i have experienced these rare occasions when people start to rise up - and believe you me - its a beautiful thing!
[info]naeldwyck wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 07:02 am (UTC)
Weir, I think you're reading too much opinion into an article that is basically a report; when he says that rational dialogue appears impossible, he is telling what he sees around him. Knowing Fisk's history, I think you can count on it that he is thrilled by seeing Iranians rise up en masse to demand their rights. That said, I am also certain he does fear for the fate of these very same people at the hands of not only the system they're protesting, but also the culture that supports it.
In the end, what would you rather have - this first-hand account of what he sees on the streets in Teheran, or compliance with the authorities who banned journalists like Fisk to go out and report what is going on? He's still out there, making it possible for us to know that these protests are going on, and I think you should give him credit for that.
[info]irajaykatz wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 02:52 am (UTC)
Veracity unknown, received from Iran. Purported letter from interior minister to Khamenei listing election results showing Moussavi as victor.
pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL365/10120366/20230356/367181553.jpg
iran election
[info]irajaykatz wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 02:52 am (UTC)
Veracity unknown, received from Iran. Purported letter from interior minister to Khamenei listing election results showing Moussavi as victor.
pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL365/10120366/20230356/367181553.jpg
Robert Fisk: Fear has gone in a land that has tasted freedom
[info]famulla wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 06:47 am (UTC)
YOU endore on this?
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla
typo are few ..read these
[info]famulla wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 06:49 am (UTC)
ENDORSE
Q: What is the only way to keep your money from the casinos in Las Vegas?
A: When you get off the plane, walk into the propellers
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla
Obama has rubber-stamped dictatorship
[info]alexweir1949 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 07:20 am (UTC)
Obama has rubber-stamped dictatorship

The latest news (in the Telegraph but not in the Independent) is that Obama has stated that dictatorship in Iran is quite OK because the foreign policy of the dictatorship is very similar to that of the actually-elected leadership. What kind of idealism is this, Obama?

Human rights, democracy, development, freedom and justice are for Americans only. We have been told so by the Uncle Tom who inhabits the White House and who uses his non-white and international credentials when it suits him and discards them when it pleases his Israeli Masters.

The world is going to hell in a bucket. Surely a world ruled by Osama Bin Laden cannot be worse than a world ruled by America, Israel, France and Britain? (Yes it can - but not by much).

Mr Alex Weir, Harare and Gaborone
Re: Obama has rubber-stamped lots of stuff, he's a rubber stamp himself
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:40 am (UTC)
He has rubber stamped much more obvious and brutal dicatorships! He has rubber-stamped occupation! He has rubber stamped operation Cast Lead! He has also rubber-stamped aerial bombardment of civilians!

He has rubber-stamped the stupid n' silly 9/11 commission report, and the resulting war on terror!

Don't expect much from him; he's a salesman, thats all, a really talented salesman, and a very good selection by the oligarchy. He's going to sell whatever the people who braught him to the power and the people who pull his strings want!

Anyway, America has lost its credibility since its 1953 coup in Iran, and its many coups in Latin America! What people want from America is to refrain, publicly n' covertly, n' stop sticking its nose in other people's affairs, and deal with the unemployed n' the homeless in their country instead!

And hey, Osama bin Laden is a myth; he was created by the CIA, and he'll continue to serve his role as long as he's needed!
[info]asotos wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 07:32 am (UTC)
Ahmadinejad has done everything possible to provoke Neocons to take action, from defying the holocaust, creating as much trouble as possible in the development of a Neoliberal Iraq to obtaining nuclear weapons to guarantee the border stability of his country.

Yes, Iranians are much oppressed than western civilians. But the most important is to have stability to the country, to not have one more dissentigrated country with scores of more refuggees running to Europe for protection.

Nobody did anything when American cities were burned down and scores of black african-americans were killed in mass demonstration against the racism they are put through, Nobody did anything when hudrends of thousands of Americans got out in the street at the Presidential Ceremony of 2nd Term of George Bush.

Let Iran Allow, foreign intervention is much hypocritical and has done nothing but dissmantline countries.

Results are correct!
[info]ahmed25 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:47 am (UTC)
Robert Fisk has himself stated in his previous article that one of his trusted Iranian friend, "who never lied to (him)", said that the results are correct, the figures are correct.
There are also reports that Mousavi had already pre-planned such demonstrations and protests should Ahmedinijad wins. Mobilizing one million people is not possible without prior planning!
The situation in Iran
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC)
What's happening in Tehran is not just peaceful demonstration! And it's not a people?s revolution! There?s polarization and diversity in the causes that got the people to vote the way they did, and them to the streets; its not a black and white painting, where all you had to do is choose sides:

Mousavi's supporters:
1- The elite clergy (Rafsenjani, Khatami n' others) and the political base in Tehran who lost some of their power and many positions during Najad's reign; and Najad has attacked Rafsenjani, who holds two head offices, the Experts' Counsel that has the ability to elect and overthrow the supreme leader, and the System Assessment counsel that has a supervisory role); Najad also accused him of corruption just prior to the elections.
2- The privileged and elite of Northern Tahran and the upper middle class who lost some of their support to the poorer areas during Najad's days.
3- The less religious and liberal people of Tahran who'd like to see more freedom, and more reforms.
4- People who just dislike Najad's approach with the west, and some other people who'd like to see an end to the Islamic republic.
5- There's also violent factions, who might've infiltrated to cause more strife and more division.

Najad's supporters:
1- The poorer factions of Iran, in which most of his base is in the villages and smaller towns, who constitute the bulk of Najad's supporters. Their lives had improved and they have benefited from Najad's reign the most; and those people are tens of millions.
2- The conservative factions of the system and the conservative clergy who are afraid of change and are always suspicious towards western influence and interference (And looking at Iran's history, they have a right to be suspicious).
3- The besige who report to the revolutionary guards, see in Najad a protector and a strong uncompromising leader; those people, who died in their hundreds of thousands in the Iraqi-Iranian war, are also suspicious of foreign interference.

Now, Fisk forgot to mention that the head of the parliament, who's also a conservative, has condemned the interior ministry for how the police have dealt with the demonstrators. Not all demonstrators were peaceful; many were rioting from day one. The fact that Mousavi has screamed "foul play" even before the elections begin, and the fact that he asked the people to go out in numbers and not be afraid to die shows that this a really fierce power and class struggle. Now, the supreme leader, who probably favors Najad, has shown some impartiality when he met with Mousavi and asked him to demonstrate peacefully, and has asked for a recount in the areas the opposition feel there was foul play. Although many demonstrations weren't licensed, they were allowed. (Let's remember how the people in florida were crushed when Bush won in 2000, and the whole world forgot about it a day later). At the end of the day, Mousavi represents 13 million (let's say 18 million if he was ripped off 5 million votes which I doubt), and the bad, the evil, the democrater, the cunning, the smiley Najad, whether Fisk and the west like it or not, represents 24 million (let's say 18 million if that was an exaggeration); there's no dictatorship in Iran, as there's no dictatorship in the UK; there are powers who choose their delegates, who are prestented to the people to choose from. The reformists hold strong positions and the conservatives hold stronger positions now; it's a power struggle; and if Mousavi was afraid of the supreme leader or the revolutionary guard, he would've acted like Al Gore and swallowed it.
Re: The situation in Iran
[info]ahmed25 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC)
I agree with you again!
There is no dictatorship in Iran.
The problem with the west and those who come from the culture or represent them, is that they can't see the world, I think, except within the framework which they think is correct and modern and free and all.
They can't think in the terms other than the establishment has made for them.
Iran has a different form of govt. It has to be seen in its perspective not from the viewpoint of the west, which in itself is not free from disorder and chaos.
The Hypocrisy of the Situation
[info]smoothop8388 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:18 am (UTC)
Those kinds of clashes happen everywhere including France and UK, whose democratic governments were the first to raise their voices like they really care if one or two Iranians die! They didn't give a damn when thousands were killed during the Shah's reign of terror 30 years ago, and they didn't give a damn when 400+ children were brutally murdered in Gaza a few months ago! The fact of the matter is, the west is investing in this division and would like to see more of it; and they don't really care about human rights, human life, or democracy, because there are far more severe cases around the globe, in which the capitalist oligarchy and western politicians endorse and support. Also, Fisk forgot to mention Najad's supporters throwing eggs and small rocks at the British and French embassy. If the west really wanted to see democracy, they wouldn't have supported the shah of shahs with their teeth n' nails for decades; they wouldn't have trained his Shaback who tortured thousands of people, they wouldn't have supported an 8 year war against Iran after that, they wouldn't have imposed sanctions and isolation on Iran for 30 years, and they wouldn't have stuck their nose in Iran's affairs!

And after a few articles that really smelled, this one seems a little more objective! Calling Najad all sort of names, and trying to paint a totally different picture of what's going on, like it was a simple people's revolution for freedom, really beats me, and definitely tarnishes Fisk's credibility although he sounds like a pigeon compared to what other journalists are writing! I used to have so much respect for him; I never saw him use such name calling, not even with Bush, Olmert or Sharon who proudly killed thousands of people. Somehow, when it comes to Lebanon and Iran, Fisk is totally losing ground. He seems convinced that Najad is a dictator who forged the elections and crushed a protest for freedom; and even when the police are nice, he takes that as a personal inclination, and not direction from their superiors! So, when they're violent to rioters or protesters, its Najad's fault, and when they're nice and they keep the peace, its their personal choice! He seems convinced that there was foul play, although he didn't see any evidence, n' no body did so far; and I didn't read a word about that in the Lebanese election, where evidence of bribery, extortion, blackmail and forgery was flying around, from tape recordings, to testimonies, to bank statements! Is it because Hizbollah and the opposition didn't march on the ground and protest (I bet that would've been called a coup), or is it because Fisk and the official west liked the results?
Re: The Hypocrisy of the Situation
[info]ahmed25 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:49 am (UTC)
I agree!
Rule and Law
[info]tragrom wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:35 am (UTC)
Robert Fisk has a legendary reputation for reporting inconvenient truths in the Middle East. I have great trust in his reporting - notwithstanding that he makes the occasional mistake - who wouldn't given the scope of his work. What interests me is that he usually respects local law - and in this case he is not, choosing "in defiance of the ban on foreign reporters" to go out and see for himself the confrontation between the two sides and file this report for us.

I wonder what his reasoning is?



Re: Rule and Law
[info]gerryhiles wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:09 am (UTC)
Fisk is notorious for picking the wrong side ... to start with.

He blamed Hezbollah for the violence unleashed by Israel against Lebanon but, later, modified his views.

I also wonder what his reasoning is ... much like the Vicar of Bray I think, so as to always coming up smelling of roses, no matter who he has denigrated previously.

Currently he slanders Ahmadinejad, but when it proves right that he stood up against US hegemony, Fisk will cozy round to admitting (too late) that Iranians have a point ... that the US and British Empire beloved by Fisk actually did some wrongs.

I used to admire Fisk, but I eventually realized that he drags his "British Imperialist" tail behind him like a dog.

It is almost certain that he believes the entire ME was 'better off' under British rule.
Re: Rule and Law - [info]exec_ceo - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Rule and Law - [info]fumanchuria - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Compare this to the US reaction in 2000
[info]marijef wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:50 am (UTC)
I admire the Iranian people who are insisting on a genuine election result. They make the Americans after Bush's outright theft of the 2000 and 2004 elections look like absolute pansies. They let democracy down, and we all pay the price for American cowardice. George Bush ruined the world for decades to come. Why weren't Americans on the street like this? Why didn't Al Gore stand up and insist? No wonder they have no democracy left--they didn't love it after all.

Congratulations and all good wishes to the Iranian people, and may they get justice.
Re: Compare this to the US reaction in 2000
[info]gerryhiles wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:14 am (UTC)
There is no real comparison. What are you on about?
Re: Compare this to the US reaction in 2000 - [info]syntheto - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Compare this to the US reaction in 2000 - [info]chanch5 - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Perfect Timing
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC)
A Nuclear Iran: it all seems just a tad surprising that after months & months of threats/bribes/name-calling from the West/Israel - which all came to nothing and did not sway in any shape or form the Iranian government or people, that now there are civil disturbances in Iran; could just be what is needed to bring Ahmadinejad down (but will Iran's nuclear ambition fall with him? I think not). And it's not at all ironic that Ahmadinejad survived everything thrown at him by the West - could be brought down by 'Iranians' (what the motivations of these Iranians is, is another question). Let's not forget that Iran has suffered from past US & EU-sponsored 'revolution'.

Let's not be naive - we all know that foreign powers meddle in other states' affairs 'to protect their interests'; it's happened in the West, the East, the North & South - very few nations are exempt from either doing it themselves or through proxy.

Who is meddling in Iran? I don't know. Maybe we can find the answer if we ask ourselves: "Who has most to gain from an unstable Iran?"
The voice of a child
[info]humble_sparrow wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 09:03 am (UTC)
"Daddy why are people never happy ?"
Re: The voice of a child
[info]john_iceknife wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:46 am (UTC)
Well sweetie, it's because most people are either really really afraid all the time, or they're so hopefull and dreamy that they upset the 'fraidy-cats. The scared ones think the dreamy ones are making things dangerous. The dramy ones aren't making things dangerous, just a little silly, but the scared ones need something to be afraid of, and the dreamy ones seem handy to them. It's not very nice of the scared ones, but the dreamy ones are too lost in their hopes to do anything clever to help scared ones. In our family we don't have to be too scared because I'll always think of fun ways to keep us safe, and we don't have to worry about being too dreamy because mommy doesn't like dreams you can't make real. Now go to sleep, and dream nice dreams dear.
Re: The voice of a child - [info]john_iceknife - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:48 am (UTC) Expand
So what happened to your "student massacre" Fisk?
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:23 am (UTC)
Turns out your "students" got tired of just burning & trashing stuff and tried to break into and loot a military post:
Iranian state media claims that the protesters had attacked a military post in the city and were trying to loot weapons when they were shot by unidentified gunmen.

Gee, attacking a military post and getting shot for it - how barbaric! Our nice Western militaries never shoot or bomb anyone unless it has a good reason, like driving too close to their convoys or holding a wedding party.

Some more of Fisk's colored-revolution "protesters:"


(AP photo/Vahid Salemi)


Just how big is Mousavi's "colored revolution," ever wonder? Is it as big as the Ahmadinejad crowds that poured out yesterday in Tehran?


(AP Photo/Fars News Agency, Hamed Malekpour)


Probably nowhere near, since the Wurlitzer media never publishes aerial wide shots of the Mousavi camp, just close-ups from ground level:


(Photo: AFP)


Everywhere in the world, from Latin America to China the West and its Wurlitzer media invariably side with the urban rich, who voted for Mousavi, against the working-class and urban poor, who support Nejad. That doesn't make Nejad less of a cretinous chauvinistic tool, it just makes Mousavi a recycled Khomeini-era-apparatchik-turned-Western-puppet.
errata
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:08 am (UTC)
3rd paragraph: "Western militaries never shoot or bomb anyone unless it has a good reason" should be "Western militaries never shoot or bomb anyone unless they have a good reason"

last paragraph: "working-class and urban poor" should be "working-class and rural poor"
Re: So what happened to your "student massacre" Fisk? - [info]ocschwar - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 05:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: So what happened to your "student massacre" Fisk? - [info]fin_d_empire - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 06:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: So what happened to your "student massacre" Fisk? - [info]volcanoerupts - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Mr Fisk does not always have it right
[info]mikhalovich wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:32 am (UTC)
I often agree with Mr. Fisk's opinions, but I am not so sure now. The western neo-colonialists' "great white hope" lost the elections, it would seem, and so they are claiming foul. The elections were rigged, look at us, how could we lose? Protest signs are in English, for what audience? The west? Is there tangible evidence of a rigged vote? Repeating over and over again that the elections were rigged will not make it so. There was a tip off a few days before the election when "the great white hope" Mousavi, said that if he did not win, it would mean the elections had been rigged (if memory serves me aright). Was that a set-up for what has occurred since? Is he trying to carry out a coup d'état against the real winner of the elections? Does opinion in Teheran represent opinion in all of Iran? Suppose Mousavi won in Teheran and lost elsewhere in the country. He would still have lost. The west's clamouring about democracy in Iran comes ill from torturers, aggressors, hypocrits. I did not hear any clamouring for example when the United States meddled in the Lebanese elections and got the result, barely, which they wanted. I do not think we should jump to any conclusions about what is going on in Iran.

Re: Mr Fisk does not always have it right
[info]ocschwar wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 05:23 pm (UTC)
Mossavi was nobody's great white hope. People voted for him purely to show their distaste for Ahmadinejad. And that is why the vote had to be supressed.
Deja Vu
[info]bishbashbong wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 10:46 am (UTC)
Ah this takes me back, it reminds me of Venezuela a couple of years ago.

Mir Hussein Mousavi has fllowed the same script as the CIA Shill, Manuel Rosales when he got trounced by the Anti-US Hugo Chavez in 2006.

Quo Bono?

Hands up who doesn't want Ahmadinejad in power? mmm... it's those pesky Zionist fellas that control the western governments again!

Let's see how does the Hegalian one, two, three work?

Select your opposition candidate to run against the guy that wont lick your backside and get the media to 'big him up'.

For the campaign, sell him as the one to save the Bourgeoisie and maybe get back some of the superiority complex that they had before the last revolution. Create polls that will convince the followers of your man that he will win by a landslide.

When your man loses, cry "FOUL", get the manipulated bourgeoisie out onto the streets to wave their flags and their (here's one I made earlier) placards. Infiltrate the internet with Israeli 'Twitter' accounts conveniently created last Saturday and get your media to promote these twitterings.

So when Netan-yahoo and Rahm Emanuels glove puppet, finally get round to bombing Iran, then the manipulated mugs over here will agree that is is necessary to keep the world 'peace'.

This is not a manipulated result but a manipulated reaction.

And please.... anyone wishing to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, please feel free to demontrate your ignorance... I could do with a laugh!
speaking of ignorance
[info]cynesthesia wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:45 am (UTC)
1. It's cui bono, not quo.
2. It's Hegelian, not Hegalian.
Re: Deja Vu - [info]exec_ceo - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:56 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Deja Vu - [info]bishbashbong - Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:15 pm (UTC) Expand
The two-class societies
[info]rhinocircus wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:04 am (UTC)
Mousavi and his western accomplices have simply exploited the two-class systems, which obtain in every country.
Regardless of whether the elections were to be fair, he has tried to release the elite class, under a false premise of fraudulent elections. He does not lose credibility, if the protests are prolonged--so he encourages them.
Maybe he can reach a tipping point, when the US will be "forced" to intervene--as in Pakistan--to protect the nuclear power programme from falling into the wrong hands.
I do believe Mousavi is very mischievous and has planned these events--why does he not wait for the results to be reviewed and cease demonstrations until then?
We also saw in 1998, when the Soviet Union started to break-up (into democratisation), how few very rich oligarchs were created and the rest of the Russians suffered grave deprivations. This happens when countries are suddenly confronted with a capitalist system, which is alien to their culture.
Some thoughts on current events in Iran
[info]rjm77 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:20 am (UTC)
There seems to be minimal understanding about what is taking place in Iran in this discussion.

A struggle has broken out between a liberal and conservative party in the Islamic republic. The state apparatus tried to limit the scope of the liberals' agitation during the election campaign. Those mainly urban elements that want greater personal freedom, less religious tutelage in their lives are outraged.

Any decent person would support these protests. Anger appears to have been directed against the disgusting and violent 'morality' police and similar thug elements which prop up the state in Iran, a country which kills 'adulterers' and homosexuals for non-existent crimes. I suspect people want real political and intellectual freedom and the right to a private life, rather than an officially-binding interpretation of Islam imposed from above. Trade unionists are routinely persecuted on trumped up charges.

It is ridiculous to suggest that this rebellion is backed by the west. Obama and the EU are to some degree paralysed by these events - if this movement develops into a popular revolution, they may not be able to control it and may soon wishe Ahmedinajhad back. This was also the case in relation to Eastern Europe 1988-91. The west, with every justification fears that a struggle over a disputed election could radicalise quickly into general attacks on the state, a proper revolution, which could extend beyond the borders of Iran, and may not necessarily be sympathetic to US-EU interests. The crowds involved are huge - there is no hope of the police or even the armed forces controlling them.

Comparisons with previous UK intervention (re Mossadeq) are wrong-headed, utterly. On this occasion, a controversial point was natural resources: a leftist leader wanting to nationalise them. At the moment all major national resources are, I believe, already nationalised. A new regime prepared to privatise them might benefit the west, but at this stage, there is no reason for assuming that this will be the natural outcome of current events.

The opposition candidate Mossavi is of course frightened by the conflict stirred up by the election and really wants the protests to stop. However, he cannot stop them. Behind him, no doubt are many way to the left who were prepared to support him against Ahmedinejhad just as many Americans way to the left of Obama would support him against Bush. The aspirations of these people will not be realised by a recount (at which the opposition fellow will probably try to gracefully concede with the aim of demobilising the 'street'). However, a minority in the demonstrations probably realise that, in the event of such a demobilisation, the police could strengthen, regroup, and take bloody revenge. At the moment the police can do nothing: this does not automatically mean they want to do nothing.

This is why the struggle for fair election practices must be broadened into a general struggle for the democratisation of the Iranian state - abolition of special police units and state ideology, real intellectual freedom and so on are absolutely necessary. The entire state apparatus must be paralysed by a general strike - this will force Adj's hand. New elections must be organised not by the old corrupt crew but by new forces - the opposition must organise meetings to formulate its own demands in relation to free and fair elections, and demand its representatives oversee every aspect of a new process, as is their right.
fisk?
[info]stickytruth2 wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 11:25 am (UTC)
The problem is that Robert Fisk reports the truth, and the trouble makers in this world especially in the Middle East cannot bear honest reporting, as it show's them for what they are over the last 60 years.
It was only reported yesterday (not by RF) on the visit of Mr Jimmy Carter he was shocked and discussed in what he saw.
Re: fisk?
[info]sanmalo wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 01:49 pm (UTC)
I am very impressed with the way so many Iranians demonstrate so strongly their desire for democracy and how sophisticated they are
[info]rtnsheffield wrote:
Wednesday, 17 June 2009 at 12:09 pm (UTC)
Mousavi is part of the system which grew out of the Islamic Revolution. He is a reformer by the standards of Ahmadinejad the current President but he is in no way under control or influenced by Israel. Mossad would have to be damn good to influence your so called agitators whom number in the hundreds of thousands, all the Iranian people want is for the Elections to be fair. Mousavi if elected would still represent Iranian interests, not much would change regarding Iranian foreign policy and they would still pursue Nuclear research.

As for you bedebyes if you feel so oppressed by the Zionist conspiracy in the UK and you indeed live here, please feel free to go and live in one of the Islamic States where the right to make comments in Newspapers such as the Independent would be denied to you as would a wholeraft of other freedoms you have become accustomed to. All I can say is good luck when you get there you might be yearning to return to this so called 'Zionist controlled State' sooner than you think.
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