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Robert Fisk’s World: A brave man who stood alone. If only the world had listened to him

I wish I had met Tom Hurndall, a remarkable man of remarkable principle

I don't know if I met Tom Hurndall. He was one of a bunch of "human shields" who turned up in Baghdad just before the Anglo-American invasion in 2003, the kind of folk we professional reporters make fun of. Tree huggers, that kind of thing. Now I wish I had met him because – looking back over the history of that terrible war – Hurndall's journals (soon to be published) show a remarkable man of remarkable principle. "I may not be a human shield," he wrote at 10.26 on 17 March from his Amman hotel. "And I may not adhere to the beliefs of those I have travelled with, but the way Britain and America plan to take Iraq is unnecessary and puts soldiers' lives above those of civilians. For that I hope that Bush and Blair stand trial for war crimes."

Hurndall got it about right, didn't he? It wasn't so simple as war/no war, black and white, he wrote. "Things I've heard and seen over the last few weeks proves what I already knew; neither the Iraqi regime, nor the American or British, are clean. Maybe Saddam needs to go but ... the air war that's proposed is largely unnecessary and doesn't discriminate between civilians and armed soldiers. Tens of thousands will die, maybe hundreds of thousands, just to save thousands of American soldiers having to fight honestly, hand to hand. It is wrong." Oh, how many of my professional colleagues wrote like this on the eve of war? Not many.

We pooh-poohed the Hurndalls and their friends as groupies even when they did briefly enter the South Baghdad electricity station and met one engineer, Attiah Bakir, who had been horrifyingly wounded 11 years earlier when an American bomb blew a fragment of metal into his brain. "You can see now where it struck," Hurndall wrote in an email from Baghdad, "caving in the central third of his forehead and removing the bone totally. Above the bridge of his broken nose, there is only a cavity with scarred skin covering the prominent gap..."

A picture of Attiah Bakir stares out of the book, a distinguished, brave man who refused to leave his place of work as the next war approached. He was silenced only when one of Hurndall's friends made the mistake of asking what he thought of Saddam's government. I cringed for the poor man. "Minders" were everywhere in those early days. Talking to any civilian was almost criminally foolish. Iraqis were forbidden from talking to foreigners. Hence all those bloody "minders" (many of whom, of course, ended up working for Baghdad journalists after Saddam's overthrow).

Hurndall had a dispassionate eye. "Nowhere in the world have I ever seen so many stars as now in the western deserts of Iraq," he wrote on 22 February. "How can somewhere so beautiful be so wrought with terror and war as it is soon to be?" In answer to the questions asked of them by the BBC, ITV, WBO, CNN, al-Jazeera and others, Hurndall had no single reply. "I don't think there could be one, two or 100 responses," he wrote. "To each of us our own, but not one of us wants to die." Prophetic words for Tom to have written.

You can see him smiling selflessly in several snapshots. He went to cover the refugee complex at Al-Rowaishid and moved inexorably towards Gaza where he was confronted by the massive tragedy of the Palestinians. "I woke up at about eight in my bed in Jerusalem and lay in until 9.30," he wrote. "We left at 10.00... Since then, I have been shot at, gassed, chased by soldiers, had sound grenades thrown within metres of me, been hit by falling debris..."

Hurndall was trying to save Palestinian homes and infrastructure but frequently came under Israeli fire and seemed to have lost his fear of death. "While approaching the area, they (the Israelis) continually fired one- to two-second bursts from what I could see was a Bradley fighting vehicle... It was strange that as we approached and the guns were firing, it sent shivers down my spine, but nothing more than that. We walked down the middle of the street, wearing bright orange, and one of us shouted through a loudspeaker, 'We are International volunteers. Don't shoot!' That was followed by another volley of fire, though I can't be sure where from..."

Tom Hurndall had stayed in Rafah. He was only 21 where – in his mother's words – he lost his life through a single, selfless, human act. "Tom was shot in the head as he carried a single Palestinian child out of the range of an Israeli army sniper." Mrs Hurndall asked me to write a preface to Tom's book and this article is his preface, for a brave man who stood alone and showed more courage than most if us dreamed of. Forget tree huggers. Hurndall was one good man and true.

More from Robert Fisk

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Thanks.
[info]euskir wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:48 am (UTC)
"Hurndall was one good man and true"...
He was, he is...
Best wishes, as always,

Federico Antin
Double Standard
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:08 am (UTC)
While Tom Hurndall's murderer has been convicted, Rachel Corrie's murderer is free despite clear evidence against him. In contrast, in the US, false charges are brought by families of Israeli victims against Iran for aiding the Palestinians even though there is not an iota of evidence that Iran was involved in any shape or form. Despite the lack of confirmed evidence, gutless American judges under pressure from pro-Israeli radicals rule against Iran. In this context, there is a clear double standard in the West and especially the US when Israel or Israeli citizens are involved regardless of their crimes many of which are heinous. In fact, the West has no backbone to challenge the Israeli atrocities while they are quick to condemn the Palestinians and those who support them.

Finally, all decent human beings should be proud of Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie and cherish their memories forever. They were real heroes who sacrificed their young lives for humanity and just cause.

Shakespeare said that cowards die many times before their deaths,
The valiant never taste of death but once. Tom and Rachel tasted death but once unlike the Israelis.
Re: Double Standard
[info]fakhry wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:15 pm (UTC)
I agree.
Some say: This is one ward you say ;if you did not say it you are dead,if you say it you are dead too.
SO SAY IT AND DIE IN Dignity

our current politician like kids,one time talk from head one time talk from bottom end.
I saw 2 years old boy,putting easy up pamers one head other day on the bottom.
Re: Double Standard - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Double Standard - [info]fakhry - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 09:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Double Standard - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Not Just Fashion
[info]ejh16 wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 05:16 am (UTC)
People like Tom Hurndall are basically vilified in the press as "tree huggers" and hippies and publicity seekers. In reality, just about anyone involved with groups like the International Solidarity Movement that puts their own life on the line in order to affect a cause that they believe in such as the rights of Palestinians would not be doing it unless they were an intelligent, thoughtful human being that had made the careful determination that they needed to become involved. Joining protests at home may, for some, be more about group acceptance and fashion than anything else, but for a person to travel all the way to Gaza to stand in front of an Israel military bulldozer to protect a Palestinian home (like Rachel Corrie) or to try to save a Palestinian child from Israel snipers (like Mr. Hurdnall) requires true conviction, the strength of which alone should be enough to convince others to take these people seriously instead of labeling or ridiculing them.


For more about Rachel Corrie, go here: http://theunpeople.blogspot.com/search?q=Rachel+Corrie

For more about the most recent ISM casualty, Tristan Anderson, go here: http://theunpeople.blogspot.com/search?q=tristan+anderson
Re: Not Just Fashion
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:24 am (UTC)
You don't really care about Americans.

You only care about any American who dies in a situation that can be blamed on Israel.

If some American died in an arab or muslim country while protesting something, you'd not give a crap.

Fake peace activists who are really just out to demonize Israel.
Re: Not Just Fashion - [info]khillo81 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 10:05 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not Just Fashion - [info]fakhry - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not Just Fashion - [info]fakhry - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:48 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not Just Fashion - [info]chesscheckers - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 07:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not Just Fashion - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Nutcases like Tom Hurndall are just misguided pawns for islamic fundamentalists
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:20 am (UTC)
If people Tom Hurndall really cared about the palestinians, he'd urge them to call off their war on Israel and declare a permanent peace with Israel.

Instead, people like that are just pawns for nutty radicals.

Just like if arab countries near Israel really cared about the palestinians, they'd offer the palestinians citizenship.

But, they don't really care about the palestinians, so they just urge the palestinians to keep attacking Israel.
Re: Nutcases like Tom Hurndall are just misguided pawns for islamic fundamentalists
[info]fakhry wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC)
leave our land of Palestine we will get you peace.any one invade Palestine will be destroyed .read history,Mandella say ''palestinism."
80 percent of Palestine became Jordan
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:22 am (UTC)
There's no 'massive tragedy' of Palestinians. It's their own doing. If they ever stop attacking Israel, they can have peace. If they want "Palestine," well 80% of it became Jordan. As long as they keep supporting lunatics like hamas who only seek Israel's destruction and want to keep their nonsense going forever, nothing will change.
Distortions, spin, twists and more distortions
[info]ottorino wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 10:34 am (UTC)
I hope you don't mind if I pray for your soul. Your anger and fierce self-justification saddens all of us who value honest dealing between men.
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]adam223344 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 03:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]adam223344 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:18 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]laduqesa - Tuesday, 7 April 2009 at 02:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]fakhry - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 07:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: 80 percent of Palestine became Jordan - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC) Expand
An act of bravery
[info]49niner wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:31 am (UTC)
As the son of a conscientious objector, I can identify with Tom Hurndall. Those who stand up for their beliefs should be respected. It's a brave man or woman who is willing to stand against the herd.

My father had to stand up in court and explain that his religious beliefs lead him to believe it was wrong to kill others just because they were of another nation. My father became a doctor and healer and to save life was his mission.

Many thousands have been killed in the Iraq conflict, and Tom Hurndall stood up for the many victims who wanted no part in it. He was a brave man and we should honour him.
Re: An act of bravery
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 07:45 am (UTC)
There is nothing special about standing up for one's belief.

There is something special about standing up for an actual good belief.

Standing up in favor of crazy radical islamic fundamentalists isn't a good belief.
Re: An act of bravery - [info]abs1978 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: An act of bravery - [info]49niner - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 05:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: An act of bravery - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Independent should ban exec_ceo
[info]giuseppesapone wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 07:48 am (UTC)
I think the British people have had enough of the ravings of exec_ceo. He has just told us that he thinks that Tom Hurndall was a "nutcase". No he was not. He was an example of all that the British used to be until we were sold out to Zionists by Tony Blair. Hurndall represented the character of people of my fathers generation who fought against fascism and Nazism and died to keep the world free from such vile ideologies.
It is people like exec_ceo who blindly support a racist ideology, Zionism, that are just plain evil and must be fought against.
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo
[info]virginiata wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:19 am (UTC)
giuseppesapone shows typical Fiskian arrogance if he thinks that he speaks for the British people. He may find other like-minded souls among readers of The Independent, but would be scratching for support in the real world. He, and his hero Fisk, are just using Hurndall for another round of Israel bashing and narrow minded bigotry.
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]britfree - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:00 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]hagaon - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]exec_md - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 02:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]britfree - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 12:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]noodaddy - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban pro-terrorist nutjobs - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban pro-terrorist nutjobs - [info]noodaddy - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 05:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban pro-terrorist nutjobs - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]chesscheckers - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Independent should ban exec_ceo - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:30 pm (UTC) Expand
A Brave Man in an evil world of self-enrichment
[info]cuvaird wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:42 am (UTC)
Tom Hurndall, shot in the head by a mindless, brain-washed boy in uniform, is a stark reminder of the dark forces in our world whose only aim is power and self-enrichment for themselves and their families. Using religious or political pretexts, they subvert governments and institutions worldwide through paid political lobby groups who have infiltrated virtually all political parties in the US, the UK, Europe and other so-called independent states worldwide. The suffering of the people that they pay others to torture, bomb, starve and oppress is of no concern to these purveyors of evil. Using political doctrine adapted for their own nefarious purposes, they now control most of our world. Voices in the wilderness such as Tom Hurndall and Robert Fisk are ridiculed as being 'crackpot' marginalized political commentators on discredited human rights issues. These powerful shadowy men come not from one country or one religious or political grouping. They are an international coterie of corruption that will inevitably bring about a nuclear conflagration that will envelop us all in the end, because we and our elected leaders are weak and ineffectual, with little or no integrity and no sense of the sanctity of man.
Re: A Brave Man in an evil world of self-enrichment
[info]hagaon wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:14 pm (UTC)
Cuvaird,
What self righteous, pompous bollocks, the conspiracy theories have been voiced before, by like minded bigots, so you had nothing new to say. The one point on which there can be no disagreement, is that Fisk is a voice in the wilderness, long may he remain so !
Re: A Brave Man in an evil world of self-enrichment - [info]methusalem - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:55 pm (UTC) Expand
What nonsense
[info]laserdent wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:56 am (UTC)
1. israel has no bradley fighting vehicles
2. Hurndall in his own words is now a military expert who knows how best the war in Iraq should be fought
3. Like many journalists (and soldiers) he got a high defying death
4. The international volunteers who act as human shields to protect rock andmolitov bottle throwers are well aware of what they are doing and risking.

He may have meant well and was a good man but thats it.
Re: What nonsense
[info]britfree wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:10 am (UTC)
WHAT NONSENSE, to protect innocent arab children in their own country from the ruffian descendants of psychopathic invaders from europe and amerikkka , what is wrong with you apologists , have you had a shame by pass
Re: What nonsense - [info]hagaon - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What nonsense - [info]adam223344 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 02:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What nonsense - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What nonsense - [info]adam223344 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What nonsense - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:42 pm (UTC) Expand
further nonsense
[info]laserdent wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:08 am (UTC)
Hurndall did noT stand alone seeing as in your own article he was quoted as part of an international organisation of volunteers.

He had the option of leaving if his courage ran out the children in sederot have to lose their legs (oshri aged 8) because of the rockets .

I SUPPOSE OUR GREAT HUMANIST WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED ISRAEL SUPPLYING THE PALESTINIANS WITH FERTILISER AND METAL TUBES THAT CAN BE CONVERTED TO EXPLOSIVES AND ROCKETS.
Re: further nonsense
[info]britfree wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:23 am (UTC)
you were right to to entitle your hasbara doings "further nonsense" , false victimhood is all you beasty folks can muster when your evil is exposed . the world is revolted by you ...... again
Re: further nonsense - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Hasbara post - [info]fiskisadisgrace - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 10:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Hasbara post - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:47 pm (UTC) Expand
What nonsense again
[info]laserdent wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 10:01 am (UTC)
BRITFREE YOUR USE OF HEBREW (HASBARA ) is to be complimented , not many have knowledge and command of a living language of 3000 years old.

Likewise i have no feelings of being a victim despite the efforts of some of my neighbours.

For the record my family origins are Iranian and the family left for the , at the time ,turkish occupied Israel after the patraich of the family was murdered in the 1880s for being a jew.

Israel do not care ! as USA !
[info]fakhry wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 11:02 am (UTC)
The lesson is to keep the journalist away ! as USA did to AL_ZARELAH journalist i Iraq.
Tom Hurndall
[info]ericblaire wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 11:15 am (UTC)
Very well written Mr Fisk, indeed!
By what right ?
[info]loopazilla wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC)
I do not understand how anyone could presume that they are above mere mortal considerations of personal safety during a war of attrition. It is all very well to live with the presumptions of Middle Class England when you are still there- ( I grew up in this mini world) -but it is folly to take these very Bourgeois attitudes into live conflict areas.
I do not relish the loss of life but surely there must be a place for Common Sense. but then, Tom Hurndall was aware of this so it makes him braver in some people's eyes.
The Israeli State faces a hostile and cunning enemy all around its borders. 8,000 rockets in a few years amounts to far more provocation than any European country would tolerate. The argument is often posted that Israeli Jews should 'go back where they came from'. Would the same people who propose this agree that all non W.A.S.P. immigrants into Europe during the past 60 years be sent 'back to where they came from' ???
I think not ! It's high time to stop the hypocrisy that surrounds the Arab/Israeli conflict.
Re: By what right ?
[info]giuseppesapone wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 02:23 pm (UTC)
How many millions of rounds did Israel fire into Gaza in the 18 months prior to the massacre, in which Gazan rockets killed just 7 Israelis while Israeli fire killed over 1200 Gazans including 226 children? Maybe it was this slaughter of Gazans, and the siege, that provoked the rocket fire.
And why are the Arabs "cunning"?
Re: By what right ? - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: By what right ? - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: By what right ? - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: By what right ? - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Failure of Parliamentary Democracy
[info]taxfries wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:39 pm (UTC)
Hurndall was not alone in opposing the invasion of Iraq. Millions in the UK felt likewise - but there is little to prevent a determined leader from taking this country to war with the support of a majority party - or bankrupting an economy to hold on to power.
Exec_ceo
[info]moustafro wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 02:45 pm (UTC)


You appear to be on this site quite a lot and at various times. I read the Independent during my lunch break at work and never get time to post as I'm back doing my job with 45 minutes. As I'm off today I wanted to respond to your tripe. I conclude that your volume of contributions are due to one of the following:

You do not have a job? Are you someone who preoccupies his time with onanism, eating processed potato products and typing utter asinine drivel? Perhaps you should use this internet time to gain meaningful employment; use it to search for a job and stop being a drain on the good people of your country! For their efforts and work ethic are paying for your benefits - you are a parasite who steals their hard earned money with every welfare payment you receive.

You are in employment but spend too much time writing such nonsense? Your employer will be paying you a salary and will expect a return on this, but yet you're always on this website commenting with fundamentalist claptrap. This is a form of theft; you're cheating your company and adversely damaging their business. In a time of global recession this is shocking behaviour.

You are someone who has combined his vocation with his hobbies. You are employed by the Israeli Government (or a Pro-Israeli group) to search for sites and act as an archetypal Pro-Israeli apologist to deflect criticism? You are no different from the fundamentalists that you purport to condemn for you are the propagandist that justifies Israeli actions regardless of what has occurred. Did you attend the Goebbels school of doublethink?

So which one is it?

I await your glib diatribe with glee you fakir!

Toodle pip!
Re: Exec_ceo
[info]exec_md wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 02:54 pm (UTC)
moustafro, I think you covered all bases there.
Re: Exec_ceo - [info]john_aliano - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: You - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Exec_ceo - [info]daniel72 - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 01:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Exec_ceo - [info]fakhry - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 09:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Exec_ceo - [info]illuminatikorp - Thursday, 30 April 2009 at 12:00 am (UTC) Expand
exec_md
[info]moustafro wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 03:37 pm (UTC)
Congratulations on your promotion dear fellow. Apparently a life of self love, benefit cheating, employer theft and propagandising has finally paid off. With such accolades can you confirm whether you're employed by the RBS or AIG and did you take your pension/bonuses with pride?
Tom Hurndall'death
[info]wilma3 wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC)
exec_ceo:
The point is not whether we care about americans or not. Your comment serves only to stop any serious discussion about the behaviour of the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories.
Re: Tom Hurndall'death
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:32 pm (UTC)
Do you realize that the behavior of the palestinians and the behavior of hamas is directly responsible for what the Israeli army does?

If your beloved wonderful cuddly palestinians ever declare permanent peace with israel, israel won't have to do anything and israel can focus full time in doing what it does best, develop tech companies, make advances in science, and enjoy life 24/7
Re: Tom Hurndall'death - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 04:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Tom Hurndall'death - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Tom Hurndall'death - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:00 pm (UTC) Expand
When the people who surround Israel stop trying to destroy it, peace will come.
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:30 pm (UTC)

1) If you care about the palestinians, you should urge them to declare a permanent peace with Israel, instead of watching them continue to try destroy Israel, only to fail badly, and only to get smacked around in response.

2) If you care about the palestinians, you should wonder why all the arab countries that surround the palestinians don't offer them citizenship and instaed just urge them to keep attacking Israel, kknowing it will only result in more losing.

3) I want peace for both israel and palestinians and feel that can never happen as long as lunatics like hamas are the role models and leaders for the palestinians.

4) For people who rant day and night about history, well, palestine was just a territory, not a country, and 80% of palestine became Jordan in the early 1900's, and the only people who pretend that israel is half or most of what palestine was are either MISINFORMED or LIARS.

5) It's 2009 now. Israel exists. It isn't leaving. The radical islamic fundamentalist world still doesn't seem to grasp this.

If what I want happened, palsetinans and israelis would have peace, and the palestinians would get their own (second) state on the vast majority of the land they claim they want (the land they HAD in 1967 yet chose not to form a state on).

THe people who insult me here are almost always people who don't REALLY care about the palestinians, and don't REALLY care about peace, and just want to demonize Israel. ANd 99% of the time they're people who also rant looney stuff about zionism and make it clear their REAL GOAL is just to undo the very existence of israel.

Deal.

Walk it off.
(Trans-)Jordan was never part of Palestine
[info]pretzelberg wrote:
Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 03:09 pm (UTC)
Saying that "80% of palestine became Jordan" is pure fiction.

Ever see those maps from the 1920s? Notice how the British Mandate comprised a) "Palestine" and b) "Trans-Jordan"?
It indicates that the two are mutually exclusive.


Whether you're aware of the above or not, the impresion you give is that Israel should expand to include the occupied territories. Nasty stuff.
Exec_ceo, you can hit the showers now.
[info]noodaddy wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:14 pm (UTC)

You must be done-in from all that posting. Or are you just copying and pasting from one of your "standard rant" word documents?
Re: Exec_ceo, you can hit the showers now.
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:02 pm (UTC)
My main message is, I want palestinians to stop trying to destroy Israel, because then I know Israel would be nice to the palestinians.

The main message of my opponents is that israel should be destroyed or has no right to even exist.

Those are the sides.
Re: Exec_ceo, you can hit the showers now. - [info]gbrun777 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 11:24 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Exec_ceo, you can hit the showers now. - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Tom Hurndall Hero.
[info]ronb310 wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 06:26 pm (UTC)
Tom Hurndall tried to save a palestinian child and lost his life. That was a heroic act and a selfless act. He was killed by a fanatic. When Israeli children are blown to bits by suicide bombers, they are killed by FANATICS ! Iraqis killed Iranians ! Fanaticism ! Iranis killed Iraqis ! Fanaticism ! Murdering 4000 americans on 9/11 was murder by Fanatics ! Killing American soldiers is murder by fanatics. Killing Iraqi civilians is murder by fanaticism ! Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah killing Israelis is murder. Israelis killing Hezbollah Hamas and Fatah is murder. IT IS ALL FANATICISM !!! Murder is not right, no matter what the reason is ! Murder will never be right. Nothing will ever make war right ! Nothing will ever make 9/11 right ! Nothing will ever make the killing of women and children right ! NOTHING ! NEVER ! No cause, No bible, No leader can ever justify murder. The killing of innocents is murder ! War is murder, viet nam was murder, WWll was murder, and until the human race puts a higher value on a single life, we are not only destined to murder but we are most assuredly destined to destroy the entire human race !!! Wake up or you will leave as a legacy a burnt out cinder for a planet for your grand children !!
Re: Tom Hurndall Hero.
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:00 pm (UTC)
If you care about palestinian children, tell palestinian adults to declare peace with Israel, instead of trying to attack and destroy it.
Re: Tom Hurndall Hero. - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Nutcases like Tom Hurndall are just misguided pawns for islamic fundamentalists
[info]chesscheckers wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC)
exec_ceo:

Israel was created illegally because of German atrocities and Western guilt. Only the Palestinian Jews (Mizrahi) have the right to be there. All others especially the Ashkenazi Jews from Europe and North America have no right whatsoever to be there. In fact, the Ashkenazi Jews are not Semitic unlike Arabs or Palestinian Jews who belong to the Semitic race. People like you who condemn selfless heroes like Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie are simply vile and immoral. All you want is to force everyone in the world to accept the German atrocities against the Ashkenazi Jews, but you do not want us to condemn the Israeli atrocities against defenseless Palestinians including women and children which are committed in front of live cameras. The Israeli atrocities are worst than the Nazis because they shamelessly commit them in front of live cameras without shame or remorse.
Re: Nutcases like Tom Hurndall are just misguided pawns for islamic fundamentalists
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:59 pm (UTC)
Israel was not created "illegaly."

Israel was created as legally as most countries on this planet.

A Solution to the Conflict
[info]highstreet44 wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 08:51 pm (UTC)
I was watching Press TV online earlier today. And they had a "debate" between a Palestinian human rghts lawyer and a member of the U.K. Zionists Assoc.

Once again, the Jewish side did themselves no favours. Time and again, he kept throwing out talking points (approved in advance by the Foreign Ministry) and tried to shout down the attorney. Do any Israeli supprters realize that this does nothing to help their cause?

No. Instead, it's the same standby lines. How dare you talk to me about suffering? Were 6 million of your people killed? What the hell do YOU know about "suffering"?

Since when do all Zionists have a monopoly on suffering? The cynical part of me knows that in this global soundbite age, various governments will spew this stuff out. On the other hand, if they actually stopped to listen and have a real debate about this, wouldn't that help both sides? But do the Zionists listen? No. And meanwhile the same people have the same pointless "debates" that the MSM promotes as REAL TV!

No it's not. http://globalcomedy.wordpress.com has some good ideas about this. I found it pretty enlightening.
Re: A Solution to the Conflict
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:05 pm (UTC)

That's fascinating. I'm sure Press TV, an Iranian news outlet, is very fair and unbiased.


Re: A Solution to the Conflict - [info]chesscheckers - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: A Solution to the Conflict - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC) Expand
A good Man
[info]amvet wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:13 pm (UTC)
Thanks, Mr. Fisk. A pity that Israeli criminals receive money from the US Government instead of prison for life. Amvet
Re: A good Man
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:15 pm (UTC)
I see amvet is another bigot who takes an individual example and uses it against the entire country.

Re: A good Man - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: A good Man - [info]exec_ceo - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 09:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: A good Man - [info]goatbucket - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:10 pm (UTC) Expand
How Fisk cynically turns an obituary to an Israel-bash
[info]fiskisadisgrace wrote:
Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 10:14 pm (UTC)

It's very sad to hear of Tom Hurndall's death. But he knew full well the danger of colluding with militants and stone throwers, lived a very risky life knowing full well the dangers. The soldier who shot him, an Israeli Bedouin, was convicted for manslaughter and sent to prison.

Mr Fisk has a very high sensitivity for Palestinians, pro-Palestinians, and members of the press. And that's fine.
But I'd also like to hear from him, once, ONCE, about Israelis who threw themselves at suicide bombers to save those around them, about families that lost their loved ones to terror and expressed their support for the peace process and for reaching out to the Palestinians. About the hundreds of victim of Hamas and Hizbolla terror who Fisk blatantly ignores, week after week, year after year.

"If only the world had listened to him." But what was he saying? Really?

Re: How Fisk cynically turns an obituary to an Israel-bash
[info]britfree wrote:
Monday, 30 March 2009 at 11:57 am (UTC)
there are NO isre***is , just theives that currently squat on the stolen lands of the palestinian people . i wish they would ALL throw themselves on top of bombs . either that or go back to poland or elsewhere in europe where they belong ./ oh no they made them selves so hated there , that they had to go and cause trouble to a whole new lot of people , curse all zionists to hell
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