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Johann Hari: Dear God, stop brainwashing children

Worship is forced on 99 per cent of children without even asking what they think


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Let us now put our hands together and pray. O God, we gather here today to ask you to free our schoolchildren from being forced to go through this charade every day. As you know, O Lord, because You see all, British law requires every schoolchild to participate in "an act of collective worship" every 24 hours. Irrespective of what the child thinks or believes, they are shepherded into a hall, silenced, and forced to pray – or pretend to.

If they refuse to bow their heads to You, they are punished. This happened to me, because I protested that there is no evidence whatsoever that You exist, and plenty of proof that shows the texts describing You are filled with falsehoods. When I pointed this out, I was told to stop being "blasphemous" and threatened with detention. "Shut up and pray," a teacher told me on one occasion. Are you proud, O Lord?

Forcing children to take part in religious worship every day is a law worthy of a theocracy, not a liberal democracy where 70 per cent of adults never attend a religious ceremony. That's why the Association of Teachers and Lecturers – one of the teachers' unions – has recently moved to ask the Government to stop forcing its members to take part in this practice.

Why does this anachronism persist in this blessedly irreligious country? For all their whining that they are "persecuted", the religious minority in Britain are in fact accorded remarkable privileges. They are given a bench-full of unelected positions in the legislature, protection from criticism in the law, and vast amounts of public money to indoctrinate children into their belief systems in every school in the land.

I can understand why the unelected, faltering religious institutions cling to this law so tightly. When it comes to "faith", if you don't get people young, you probably won't ever get them. Very few people are, as adults, persuaded of the idea that (say) a Messiah was born to a virgin and managed to bend the laws of physics, or that we should revere a man who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year-old girl. You can usually only persuade people of this when they are very young – a time when their critical and rational faculties have not yet been developed – and hope it becomes a rock in their psychological make-up they dare not pull out.

But why do the rest of us allow this fervent 5 per cent of the population to force the rest of our kids to follow their superstitions? Parents can withdraw their children if they choose – but that often means separating the child in an embarrassing way from her friends and exposing them to criticisms from the school, so only 1 per cent do it. Most don't even know it is an option.

More importantly still, why is worship forced on 99 per cent of children without their own consent or even asking what they think? As the author Richard Dawkins has pointed out many times, there are no "Christian children" or "Muslim children". I was classed as "Christian" because my mother is vaguely culturally Christian, although at every opportunity I protested that I didn't believe any of it. Children are not born with these beliefs, as they are born with a particular pigmentation or height or eye colour. Indeed, if you watch children being taught about religion, you will see most of them instinctively laugh and ask perfectly sensible sceptical questions that are swatted away – or punished – by religious instructors.

I am genuinely surprised that no moderate religious people have, to my knowledge, joined the campaign to stop this compelled prayer. What pleasure or pride can you possibly feel in knowing that children are compelled to worship your God? Why are you silent?

The prayer-enforcers offer a few arguments in their defence. At first, they claim it instils "moral values" in children. The scientist Gregory S Paul produced a detailed study in 2005 to find out if rates of murder and rape went up as levels of religion went down. He found the exact opposite. On detailed international comparisons, the more religious a country is, the more likely you are to be stabbed or raped there. There isn't necessarily a causal relationship – but it blasts a bloody hole in this claim.

Of course, if you actually followed the morality explicitly commanded by the Bible, Torah and Koran, you would kill adulterers, gay people, apostates, and disobedient children and be sent to prison. Thankfully, the vast majority of religious believers long since decided to disregard much of "God's word", because it is manifestly appalling, and read it metaphorically. But you have to strip away an awful lot of the texts as metaphor before you get to a few bland lessons about being nice to each other. Can't we get the lessons about niceness from somewhere else, without the bogus metaphysics and endless injunctions to kill our friends?

Once the morality defence dissolves, the religious switch tack, and claim that children indoctrinated into religion perform better academically. As "proof", they point to the fact that faith schools perform somewhat better on league tables. It's true – but look a little deeper.

There have been two detailed studies of this, by the conservative think tank Civitas, and the Welsh Assembly. They found faith schools get better results for one simple reason: they use selection to cream off highly motivated children of the wealthy and weed out difficult, poor or unmotivated students who would require more work. Once you take into account their "better" intakes, faith schools actually underperform academically by 5 per cent (and that's before you factor in all the other problems they cause).

I am absolutely not saying that schools should teach children to be atheists. No. Schools should take no position on religion. They should be neutral, and equip children with the thinking skills – asking for evidence, and knowing how to analyse it rationally – that will enable them to make up their own minds, when they wish, beyond the school gates. How can a religious person object to that, without admitting that open-minded, evidence-seeking adults would see through their claims in a second?

And so, O Lord, I ask you – and the British Government – to set our children free, at last, from being forced to worship You. Amen – and hallelujah.

j.hari@independent.co.uk

More from Johann Hari

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Oh shut up
[info]joshtate90 wrote:
Thursday, 7 May 2009 at 11:53 pm (UTC)
It's no different from being indoctrinated to believe in left wing policies by a heavily politcal teaching profession that is heavily biased in favour of the Left. We should attack them first, because religion is not as influential as you claim. You just like to sound controversial and independent. The secular constituency is a majority in this country. Before you accuse me of being an offended Christian, I'd like to tell people I am an atheist, but a quite one. Most religious people I meet are respectful of my views and don't attempt to change them unless we BOTH agree to a debate. You are as bad as the dogmatic preachers of religion.

We should let children decide their own political views, but statistically, 80% of teachers identify themselves as centre left and learn economics from the Daily Mirror, or from the unbelievable economic illiteracy of Hari's prognostications on his economic policy and its supposed consequences. We should stamp out that bias in state schooling and make sure teachers teach centrist politics when necessary and leave children to make up their own mind. A prayer is not going to turn a boy/girl into a militant ideologue. Militant ideologue's breed their own kind.

So Johann, stop pretending to a radical intellectual. You are neither and fail miserably at trying.
Re: Oh shut up
[info]psimist wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 12:06 am (UTC)
What is a centrist policy? By definition it is not one thing or another. Or do you mean the middle way, or buddhism?
Re: Oh shut up - [info]ron_gusset - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]liars4jebus - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:45 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]luculluscicero - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]supertask - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]pngeek - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]tobz1000 - Monday, 11 May 2009 at 12:45 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]sergio_montes - Monday, 11 May 2009 at 04:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Oh shut up - [info]fakhry - Monday, 11 May 2009 at 05:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Spot on
[info]psimist wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 12:04 am (UTC)
Funny article, I smiled throughout. Totally agree with the sentiments expressed in it. Whilst were at it can we stop allowing religions, cults and sects to claim tax exemption for charitable purposes. here in Australia the Seventh Day Adventists run a food business called Sanitarium which produces breakfast cereals, the business receives tax breaks. I almost feel sorry for Kellogs. We also have a massive faith schools system here which receives state and federal funding. This has led to the situation where for instance the Lutherans who number about 170000 church goers have a network of hundreds of primary and secondary schools across Australia which have about 5% Lutheran children in them. Never mind the opportunity for preaching and converting a captive audience, think about how many less clerics there would be if the school chaplains were not salaried by the schools.
Yes Sir!
[info]kodak321 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 12:25 am (UTC)
One mention of Muslims and a tirade against Christians. You are a strange one. Peter Tatchell would have you for breakfast, but skip (sharp exit), the main course and dessert. He's got balls and knows the enemy, and confronts them on a regular basis. You on the other hand are a privileged hug a muslim, left wing Sophist (modern interpretation). You're attempt at irony-come-comedy (first and last paragraph) is pathetic...cringeworthy. You are one of the finest leftist tossers, I've never had the pleasure to meet.
Re: Yes Sir!
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 12:54 am (UTC)
Mate, I wouldn't even bother after sitting there and sticking up for paedophile campaigning Tatchell lol
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]lah_de_dah - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]ancientoneuk - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 11:44 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]sickofstupidity - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 02:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]steerpike66 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 03:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]celticwelshman - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]floppsiefrog - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]eve_ntual92 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes Sir! - [info]the100thidiot - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:44 am (UTC) Expand
Now lets get the other Indy troll out of the woodwork...
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:05 am (UTC)
It is indoctrination, state controlled mind numbing, zero choice indoctrination.

Week in, week out, our children are forced to pray to a god they don't believe in for the most part, churches and Sunday schools are the place to teach children about religion, schools for everything else that matters.
Re: Now lets get the other Indy troll out of the woodwork...
[info]treenonpoet wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:58 pm (UTC)
The British Government deny the indoctrination, yet admit that they are fully committed to worship in schools. Sadly, such contradictions are filtered out by the religious mind.

I do not agree that churches and Sunday schools are the best place to teach children about religion ? they tend to be biased, and have been known to slip in a bit of indoctrination themselves.
Pic says it all!
[info]kodak321 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:51 am (UTC)
Obvious, twit. A genius. And if you need to fill in the gaps (for future reference), tell us about your retard, functionally deficient, knock on wood brain....well try to...then there is... a capability issue...no forget it...
Re: Pic says it all!
[info]celticwelshman wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 02:08 am (UTC)
What's obvious? only one thing comes over as obvious, that you have the most severely un-likeable, offensive nature. your not one bit amusing, however, it takes all sorts...
Still you have not answered my question, which is, and you are? an answer in honesty without spin would be nice, ........ so?
a message - [info]twelve_three - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Religious teaching in schools
[info]gwilliamm wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:06 am (UTC)
I do not want any religion taught in schools and schools that do teach it should not be funded by the state plus all children should wear exactly the same uniform from the shoes to their headwear.
No signs of ethnic background i.e. no veils, turbans, crosses or knives to be worn or brought to school as a taxpayer I want people to learn the technical aspects of society if they want religion they can get it at home from their parents. Go to New Zealand and Australia where if they do not like it they will be deported not like this shower of clowns that we fund in Westminister who grovel to these insidious individuals. Let us adopt the French attitude to religion in schools.
Re: Religious teaching in schools
[info]tarquintt wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:14 am (UTC)
yeah, that's bs mate

I live in Australia and they are more accommodating to muslims and veils than the British, they're probably both more PC in general - I'm afraid the hard-line racist view of Australia was solely a construct of their last PM, John Howard
Re: Religious teaching in schools - [info]rmcbride05 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 12:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religious teaching in schools - [info]steerpike66 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 03:56 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]tarquintt wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:09 am (UTC)
You make an interesting assertion that all schools follow this old law - most don't adhere to it anymore

While I agree it should be removed altogether, to say 99% are forced into prayer is a massive exaggeration - in 2004 the Chief Inspector of Schools said that "at present more than three-quarters of schools fail to meet this requirement." - it's basically defunct under common law

While we're tackling unused, idiotic laws, you may as well go after the blasphemy laws too

Getting rid of the 'Lords Spiritual' would be a much better use of column inches
[info]the100thidiot wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:49 am (UTC)
Weren't the blashphemy laws repealed during 2008?

Agreed that the bishops in the House of Lords are an anachronism long overdue to be removed.
Refreshing - thanks so much for this!
[info]distaffer3 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:24 am (UTC)
Seneca "Religion is regarded by the wise as false, by the many as true, and by the rulers as useful." Napoleon: "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping the common people quiet." The whole thing's a con, fear of death begs to be exploited - it's so easy. Your own fear's the club they hold over you. If people are so sure someone's waiting on a cloud up there, why do they cry and scream when told they're terminal? Is your inbox cluttered with invitations to celebrate a friend's imminent death? To come to grips with mortality is to grow up, finally. Get your justice here on earth, this notion of karma is dressed up wishful thinking - bad enough Reagan believed the end was near - if he'd faced a missile crisis and woke in a trigger happy mood, it could have been more than inconvenient for us all. Would you want your plane piloted by someone who believes in reincarnation? All superstition exists on the same level. I wear a t-shirt reading "If you believe the meek will inherit the earth you're just where they want you" - you'd be surprised how many people ask where to buy it, whispering "I don't believe that crap anymore, either." Read Bertrand Russell's Best - a tonic. "There may well be a blue china teacup orbiting earth. I cannot prove otherwise, but because I am rational, until someone proves there is a blue china teacup orbiting earth, I prefer to think there is not." Clean your head of religious teaching and you live in a better neighborhood.
[info]pmh200111 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 05:44 am (UTC)
your - possessive adjective - used with nouns to show possession

you're - contracted form of you are.

bring back education.
(no subject) - [info]lah_de_dah - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:12 am (UTC) Expand
what a sad pathetic little person - [info]karachi747 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:37 am (UTC) Expand
[info]llienomot wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 05:25 am (UTC)
Is this the same J Hari who, only a few yearsc ago was calling for the mass killing of Iraqi children?
Yes that's right, that was his position.
[info]maxmillerfan wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:39 am (UTC)
He "called for" the "mass killing of Iraqi children."

That is such a stupid and false calim it almost beggars belief.
Re: Yes that's right, that was his position. - [info]llienomot - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes that's right, that was his position. - [info]peds31 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 11:05 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes that's right, that was his position. - [info]llienomot - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 02:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Bush you idiot!! - [info]hcurtiss - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Religious education is actually child abuse
[info]hcurtiss wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:00 am (UTC)
You have pointed out many of the irrational absurdities of religious education. And in a multi-ethnic society how can we promote one incomprehesible mythology over another.

For many educated in Catholic schools there is often a shared memory of psychological abuse by priests and Christian brothers who often terrorised children a young as five or six with vivid descriptions of eternal hell, unspeakable torment.

Religion has no place in our modern society. The common problems that the entire world face must be tackled with humanity, sympathy and rationality. Perhaps replacing religious lesson for young children with green studies focussing on climate chasnge, biodiversity issues, species exinction, abuse of animals in factory farming, impact of HIV- and for older children an introduction to philosophy, completely neglected in our syllabus would help.
Re: Religious education is actually child abuse
[info]jen_wren_87 wrote:
Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 01:20 pm (UTC)
What an idiotic subject line!

Religion is a source of great comfort and joy to a great many people. Yes, there are people who take it too far, those who promote hate disguised as religion, and yes there are flaws, but the vast majority of religious people educate their children in an open and responsible manner.

"For many educated in Catholic schools there is often a shared memory of psychological abuse by priests and Christian brothers"

And twenty-odd years ago there were a great many people with a shared memory of satanic ritual abuse, which time and time again has been proved false. Memory is not a cut-and-dried thing, it's subjective and falliable.

Religious education is slowly changing, taking on a multi-faith approach, and as such has every place in contemporary society, as does religion itself.
Re: Religious education is actually child abuse - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 01:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religious education is actually child abuse - [info]jen_wren_87 - Sunday, 10 May 2009 at 06:35 am (UTC) Expand
It's about time...
[info]16tim16 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:16 am (UTC)
Calling Johann names doesn't really help the debate, you know. It's a typical Fox News tactic that debases the originator.

The majority of Indy readers will probably have been subjected to this sort of indoctrination, and we can all see the results of twisted faith-based hate. Atheists/agnostics/humanists are mainly quiet thinkers who have reached their own conclusions in spite of parental and state religious domination. Many however now find that the level of religious influence is such that to remain quiet is just too uncomfortable to bear.

To remain silent in the face of such inequality grates against the conscience. Have a look now and again at the religious channels on TV - see the 'sponsored links' at the foot of this page - it's a hair-raising experience for the unindoctrinated.

If you're an atheist/agnostic/humanist then you need to speak up, as you can't possibly be satisfied with the unfair treatment being meted out.
Not just prayer
[info]had_it wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:25 am (UTC)
A small symptom of the arrogance of government, both elected and bureaucratic:
Do pray, Do not use seal skin, Do wear helmet, Do not eat transfat.
Everything not prohibited should be compulsory.

Who are these guys, anyway?
Shut up and pray," You did not listen. See what happened.
[info]famulla wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 06:49 am (UTC)
"Shut up and pray," a teacher told me on one occasion. Are you proud, O Lord? What were you doing?
You did not listen. See what happened. Now are awake for the children, are you.
Dear God, stop brainwashing children. Moreover, you think he will listen to you? I have no idea how many sins we all commit daily.
Worship is forced on 99 per cent of children without even asking what they think
I refuse to believe this statistics. 99%? Kind of skewed. Take the gays and lesbians. They are on the worn path altogether. What are the children, from the age 3 to 17?
When they grow, they see this. What do you think? They will pray. No. They will steal also.
Let us talk of the ministers in UK who refuse to pay back the expense or refuse to look into this issue. If ministers do not pay, corporations will pay. I wonder.
Who created this habit? We as local folks not in the parliaments keep on coughing the tax, come rain or sunshine. There are inspectors, penalties and closures or threats of closure of the businesses. I fail to see why the same is not applicable to the ministers. Are they immune to such avoidance of petty expenses like a taxi ten times a day to the out of London, The children going with them for picnics, the maid pick up, the wife going for shopping. The list can be seen in the papers, as we know, they ought to know. They receive donations on pretext of becoming Parliamentarians when the election loom.
You mean that in short they are the thieves in the Barbie Dolls? dresses.
I hope HE Hears you. Please let me have the recipe.
I thank you.
Firozali A.Mulla

Halleluja !!
[info]brollyspike wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:41 am (UTC)
Yes, wouldn't it be good to teach our children to use their heads to solve problems, nurture friendships to rely on when in need of support and generally respect and celebrate (v. worship) every living thing on earth. In fact, we could even celebrate our soil, rain and sunlight. It's no good asking the British Government to set our children on the right (v. righteous) path. Just look at the gaggle of believers, clergy and bishops we got thronging the corridors of power. However, I struggle to see how one could 'teach' a child to be an atheist. That's like saying one could teach a child not to believe in fairies.
Over-opinionated under-informed
[info]zurruq wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:41 am (UTC)
Mr Hari, your ignorance of the seerah of the Prophet SAWS is tantamount to arrogance. Whilst I do not believe that Muslims have to react to Orientalist prejudice such as your wild statement in line 23, I am compelled to ask you to refer to the key sources on this matter, from which you will derive a more valid understanding, as opposed to peddling base and incorrect accusations set in motion during the Crusades against Islam. Ignorant perpetuation of myths and untruths is one of the contributing factors to the disconnect between Western frames of thinking and the Islamic frame.

You took up a similar though not identical position when commenting recently upon womans rights in Islam. Perhaps you may benefit from analysing your own motives for conveying regular criticism on a subject in which you are clearly no expert.

Peace to all, regardless of religion, colour, creed or culture.

Re: Over-opinionated under-informed
[info]steerpike66 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 04:04 pm (UTC)
No, sorry. I'm sure Mr Hari would like to be well-informed on the dreary tenets of whatever bogus sage, whether Muslim, Catholic or Hindu, you're discussing. But the problem here is that God doesn't exist, that most people vote with their feet on this issue and don't worship the non-existent one, that all His texts are a pile of obtuse, contradictory nonsense written by people whose brains weighed about half what ours do and that these discretied remnants shoudl be kept out of the public sphere.

So please, the seerah of the prophet (no he wasn't he was a charlatan: all prophets are) Saws, the Apocalypse of the nutcase St John, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Dianetics, the Baghavad Gita: all twaddle, all nonsense: all less useful than wheel on a tomato. No respect for any of them: stuff it up[ your arse.
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 11:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 11:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 11:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 12:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 12:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 12:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 01:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 01:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 02:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]samn123 - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 02:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Over-opinionated under-informed - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Morning assembly
[info]cybernaught2009 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:46 am (UTC)
I think that it is a good thing for schools to have a morning assembly, but I would like the religious component to be neutralised. By all means have talks which explain what each religion believes (their metaphysics) and which discuss their moral codes (their ethics). But make these factual and value free, and include talks from atheists (on metaphysics and ethics). By all means have community singing, but ensure that it is diverse and not restricted to the hymns of a given creed.



Don't vote for them
[info]simon_gardner wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:52 am (UTC)
You are calling for the secularisation of British schools. Very good.

But I can't see it happening with so many god-botherers in the House of Commons. So ask them at election time and don't vote for them.
IS ANYONE THERE?
[info]georgesign wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 07:59 am (UTC)
Do contributors to these Comment areas ever wonder if the articles written by Johann Hari and other journalists are ever read by the authors of these pieces? It would be nice to know.

People with strongly held opinions seem to be playing a game with different cards so they can never convince each other of their point of view. The religious play with Faith as their trump card and the non-religious play with Reason as their trump card.

If schools insist on teaching Religion and the Bible then they should also teach Objectivism and the books of Ayn Rand. The philosophy of Objectivism is much more satisfying than Faith.
Re: IS ANYONE THERE? - [info]georgesign - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 11:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: IS ANYONE THERE? - [info]rlwemm - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: IS ANYONE THERE? - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 07:57 am (UTC) Expand
Thank you
[info]xiaoda wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC)

Excellent article.

"I am genuinely surprised that no moderate religious people have, to my knowledge, joined the campaign to stop this compelled prayer"
-Religious christians, even moderate ones, probably don't feel the need to stop the compelled prayer because they -to some extent- believe it is the truth being delivered. The ones that do object are probably somewhat mollified by the fact that as one poster has mentioned, this law isn't strictly adhered to. Instead, even in faith schools, morning assembly is often a weekly event, and often without any prayer.
As for these assemblies, I agree with the above poster entirely. Let the religious component to be neutralised. By all means have talks which explain what each religion believes (their metaphysics) and which discuss their moral codes (their ethics). But make these factual and value free, and include talks from atheists (on metaphysics and ethics). By all means have community singing, but ensure that it is diverse and not restricted to the hymns of a given creed.
Good news
[info]von_mises wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC)
Christ is risen, he is risen indeed!
Re: Good news - [info]von_mises - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:33 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Good news - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:48 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Good news - [info]sickofstupidity - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 02:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Good news - [info]richardm30 - Sunday, 10 May 2009 at 06:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Good news - [info]corporeal4now - Sunday, 10 May 2009 at 11:37 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Good news - [info]simon_gardner - Sunday, 10 May 2009 at 12:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Of course, if you actually followed
[info]larkspur_14 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:16 am (UTC)
Of course, if you actually followed the morality explicitly commanded by the Bible you would not spend billions on armaments and the military, nor would you train people to be affectless killers and send them out to slaughter in your name.
Re: Of course, if you actually followed
[info]northernsaddler wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 11:26 am (UTC)
That's right, because nobody has ever had a war in the name of Christianity have they?
Re: Of course, if you actually followed - [info]hcurtiss - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]opinionated101 wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC)
Excellent article. Religion should be subject to the same legislation as alcohol, that is, one should not be allowed to partake until an adult - by which time they may, one hopes, have more sense.
Stop brainwashing children
[info]antirelon wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:18 am (UTC)
Good for you. More please.
Anti Relon
Strange Suggestion
[info]dickx wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:19 am (UTC)
It is clearly sensible to say that we should all be allowed to openly consider religeous teachings and make up our own minds.
But to say that "if you actually followed the morality explicitly commanded by the Bible, Torah and Koran, you would kill adulterers, gay people, apostates, and disobedient children" is a very strange suggestion. I would welcome comments from those who understand the Koran, but when Matthew Mark and Luke all tell us in the bible that the most important commandment is to love God and to then love our neighbour as ourself - Johann Hari's statement above does not follow the New Testament. There is the occasion mentioned in John's gospel when Jesus is asked what should be done to a woman who had been caught committing adultery - to which he replied that whoever had comitted no sin should throw the first stone - the crowd left, and Jesus did not condemn the woman.
If we are going to make up our own minds on religeous teachings, let's consider the teachings properly.
Re: Strange Suggestion
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:30 am (UTC)
Totally agreed.

If there's one theme that runs consistantly throughout the Bible, it's Grace. What mankind deserves isn't usually what it gets, summed up in the book of Romans:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ..."

Jesus Himself showed this in the example with the adulterous woman, and as deity is meant to be fully embodied in Him, His actions represent God's attitude. But this is often lost on most people and in articles of this kind.
The adulterous woman story is not authentic - [info]rlwemm - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 08:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Strange Suggestion - [info]treenonpoet - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Strange Suggestion - [info]rlwemm - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 08:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Strange Suggestion - [info]manplant - Saturday, 9 May 2009 at 11:18 am (UTC) Expand
The philosophy of objectivism
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 08:22 am (UTC)
This is the, er, philosophy which brought you 9/11/1973 and the replacement of ordoliberlism with neoliberalism.

This is the, er, philosophy which brought you 'no such thing a society', 'greed-is-good-greed-works', 'f*** you buddy', and 28m on food stamps.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/usa-2008-the-great-depression-803095.html

The Good Samaritan has got real, now he walks on by.
Re: The philosophy of objectivism
[info]sheilabogh wrote:
Friday, 8 May 2009 at 09:59 am (UTC)
Hari speaks my mind!
I agree with Simon, how come you want secularism in schools when Britain is not secularist,. i.e. the PM has to be Christain (not Muslim) and Protestant as well?

Sheila Boghossian. (Edinburgh/Beirut).
Re: The philosophy of objectivism - [info]doc_cupper - Friday, 8 May 2009 at 10:39 am (UTC) Expand
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