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Johann Hari: Despite these riots, I stand by what I wrote

The answer to the problems of free speech is always more free speech

Last week, I wrote an article defending free speech for everyone – and in response there have been riots, death threats, and the arrest of an editor who published the article.

Here's how it happened. My column reported on a startling development at the United Nations. The UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights has always had the job of investigating governments who forcibly take the fundamental human right to free speech from their citizens with violence. But in the past year, a coalition of religious fundamentalist states has successfully fought to change her job description. Now, she has to report on "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets." Instead of defending free speech, she must now oppose it.

I argued this was a symbol of how religious fundamentalists – of all stripes – have been progressively stripping away the right to freely discuss their faiths. They claim religious ideas are unique and cannot be discussed freely; instead, they must be "respected" – by which they mean unchallenged. So now, whenever anyone on the UN Human Rights Council tries to discuss the stoning of "adulterous" women, the hanging of gay people, or the marrying off of ten year old girls to grandfathers, they are silenced by the chair on the grounds these are "religious" issues, and it is "offensive" to talk about them.

This trend is not confined to the UN. It has spread deep into democratic countries. Whenever I have reported on immoral acts by religious fanatics – Catholic, Jewish, Hindu or Muslim – I am accused of "prejudice", and I am not alone. But my only "prejudice" is in favour of individuals being able to choose to live their lives, their way, without intimidation. That means choosing religion, or rejecting it, as they wish, after hearing an honest, open argument.

A religious idea is just an idea somebody had a long time ago, and claimed to have received from God. It does not have a different status to other ideas; it is not surrounded by an electric fence none of us can pass.

That's why I wrote: "All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him. I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade."

An Indian newspaper called The Statesman – one of the oldest and most venerable dailies in the country – thought this accorded with the rich Indian tradition of secularism, and reprinted the article. That night, four thousand Islamic fundamentalists began to riot outside their offices, calling for me, the editor, and the publisher to be arrested – or worse. They brought Central Calcutta to a standstill. A typical supporter of the riots, Abdus Subhan, said he was "prepared to lay down his life, if necessary, to protect the honour of the Prophet" and I should be sent "to hell if he chooses not to respect any religion or religious symbol? He has no liberty to vilify or blaspheme any religion or its icons on grounds of freedom of speech."

Then, two days ago, the editor and publisher were indeed arrested. They have been charged – in the world's largest democracy, with a constitution supposedly guaranteeing a right to free speech – with "deliberately acting with malicious intent to outrage religious feelings". I am told I too will be arrested if I go to Calcutta.

What should an honest defender of free speech say in this position? Every word I wrote was true. I believe the right to openly discuss religion, and follow the facts wherever they lead us, is one of the most precious on earth – especially in a democracy of a billion people riven with streaks of fanaticism from a minority of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs. So I cannot and will not apologize.

I did not write a sectarian attack on any particular religion of the kind that could lead to a rerun of India's hellish anti-Muslim or anti-Sikh pogroms, but rather a principled critique of all religions who try to forcibly silence their critics. The right to free speech I am defending protects Muslims as much as everyone else. I passionately support their right to say anything they want – as long as I too have the right to respond.

It's worth going through the arguments put forward by the rioting fundamentalists, because they will keep recurring in the twenty-first century as secularism is assaulted again and again. They said I had upset "the harmony" of India, and it could only be restored by my arrest. But this is a lop-sided vision of "harmony". It would mean that religious fundamentalists are free to say whatever they want – and the rest of us have to shut up and agree.

The protestors said I deliberately set out to "offend" them, and I am supposed to say that, no, no offence was intended. But the honest truth is more complicated. Offending fundamentalists isn't my goal – but if it is an inevitable side-effect of defending human rights, so be it. If fanatics who believe Muslim women should be imprisoned in their homes and gay people should be killed are insulted by my arguments, I don't resile from it. Nothing worth saying is inoffensive to everyone.

You do not have a right to be ring-fenced from offence. Every day, I am offended – not least by ancient religious texts filled with hate-speech. But I am glad, because I know that the price of taking offence is that I can give it too, if that is where the facts lead me. But again, the protestors propose a lop-sided world. They do not propose to stop voicing their own heinously offensive views about women's rights or homosexuality, but we have to shut up and take it – or we are the ones being "insulting".

It's also worth going through the arguments of the Western defenders of these protestors, because they too aren't going away. Already I have had e-mails and bloggers saying I was "asking for it" by writing a "needlessly provocative" article. When there is a disagreement and one side uses violence, it is a reassuring rhetorical stance to claim both sides are in the wrong, and you take a happy position somewhere in the middle. But is this true? I wrote an article defending human rights, and stating simple facts. Fanatics want to arrest or kill me for it. Is there equivalence here?

The argument that I was "asking for it" seems a little like saying a woman wearing a short skirt is "asking" to be raped. Or, as Salman Rushdie wrote when he received far, far worse threats simply for writing a novel (and a masterpiece at that): "When Osip Mandelstam wrote his poem against Stalin, did he ‘know what he was doing' and so deserve his death? When the students filled Tiananmen Square to ask for freedom, were they not also, and knowingly, asking for the murderous repression that resulted? When Terry Waite was taken hostage, hadn't he been ‘asking for it'?" When fanatics threaten violence against people who simply use words, you should not blame the victim.

These events are also a reminder of why it is so important to try to let the oxygen of rationality into religious debates – and introduce doubt. Voltaire – one of the great anti-clericalists – said: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." If you can be made to believe the absurd notion that an invisible deity dictated The Eternal Unchanging Truth to a specific person at a specific time in history and anyone who questions this is Evil, then you can easily be made to demand the death of journalists and free women and homosexuals who question that Truth. But if they have a moment of doubt – if there is a single nagging question at the back of their minds – then they are more likely to hesitate. That's why these ideas must be challenged at their core, using words and reason.

But the fundamentalists are determined not to allow those rational ideas to be heard – because at some level they know they will persuade for many people, especially children and teenagers in the slow process of being indoctrinated.

If, after all the discussion and all the facts about how contradictory and periodically vile their ‘holy' texts are, religious people still choose fanatical faith, I passionately defend their right to articulate it. Free speech is for the stupid and the wicked and the wrong – whether it is fanatics or the racist Geert Wilders – just as much as for the rational and the right. All I say is that they do not have the right to force it on other people or silence the other side. In this respect, Wilders resembles the Islamists he professes to despise: he wants to ban the Koran. Fine. Let him make his argument. He discredits himself by speaking such ugly nonsense.

The solution to the problems of free speech – that sometimes people will say terrible things – is always and irreducibly more free speech. If you don't like what a person says, argue back. Make a better case. Persuade people. The best way to discredit a bad argument is to let people hear it. I recently interviewed the pseudo-historian David Irving, and simply quoting his crazy arguments did far more harm to him than any Austrian jail sentence for Holocaust Denial.

Please do not imagine that if you defend these rioters, you are defending ordinary Muslims. If we allow fanatics to silence all questioning voices, the primary victims today will be Muslim women, Muslim gay people, and the many good and honourable Muslim men who support them. Imagine what Britain would look like now if everybody who offered dissenting thoughts about Christianity in the seventeenth century and since was intimidated into silence by the mobs and tyrants who wanted to preserve the most literalist and fanatical readings of the Bible. Imagine how women and gay people would live.

You can see this if you compare my experience to that of journalists living under religious-Islamist regimes. Because generations of British people sought to create a secular space, when I went to the police, they offered total protection. When they go to the police, they are handed over to the fanatics – or charged for their "crimes." They are people like Sayed Pervez Kambaksh, the young Afghan journalism student who was sentenced to death for downloading a report on women's rights. They are people like the staff of Zanan, one of Iran's leading reform-minded women's magazines, who have been told they will be jailed if they carry on publishing. They are people like the 27-year old Muslim blogger Abdel Rahman who has been seized, jailed and tortured in Egypt for arguing for a reformed Islam that does not enforce shariah law.

It would be a betrayal of them – and the tens of thousands of journalists like them – to apologize for what I wrote. Yes, if we speak out now, there will be turbulence and threats, and some people may get hurt. But if we fall silent – if we leave the basic human values of free speech, feminism and gay rights undefended in the face of violent religious mobs – then many, many more people will be hurt in the long term. Today, we have to use our right to criticise religion – or lose it.

Postscript: If you are appalled by the erosion of secularism across the world and want to do something about it, there are a number of organizations you can join, volunteer for or donate to.

Some good places to start are the National Secular Society, the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Science and Reason, or – if you want the money to go specifically to work in India – the International Humanist and Ethical Union. (Mark your donation as for their India branch.)

Even donating a few hours or a few pounds can really make a difference to defending people subject to religious oppression – by providing them with legal help, education materials, and lobbying for changes in the law.

An essential source of news for secularists is the terrific website Butterflies and Wheels.

More from Johann Hari

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[info]jonswan wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:03 am (UTC)
I am 1000% behind you. This utter lunacy must be held up to reasoned argument and seen for what it is; retarded, dangerous fantasy.
Re: Despite these riots, I stand by what I wrote
[info]dpleigh wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:18 am (UTC)
I would just like to give you my full support for writing this article and the previous one in question. You are certainly not alone in your thoughts. Can you become a fan of Johann Hari on facebook?
Re: Despite these riots, I stand by what I wrote
[info]ameenaman wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 09:31 pm (UTC)
that is why Hari is looking for Celebrity ?to start the3 book?
Why It's Okay to "Offend" the Religious
[info]sumyumgai wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:33 am (UTC)
Compared to the fate that religions reserve for non-believers of eternal damnation and death for blasphemy, non-believers are merely using words. Who should really be offended? From the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/the-atheist-bus-campaign_b_162844.html
Freedom of Speech yes mindless generalisation not so much.
[info]crazy_so_and_so wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:38 am (UTC)
I agree pretty completely accepted for the nonsensical belief that religion is some kinda brain dead indoctrination, its the equivalent of saying a pianist with classical training will NEVER be able to play jazz. If anyone here actually got talking to a run of the mill religious family rather than the caricatures you love to sustain with the air of your attenton you would see that most Christians are taught tolerance even when they disagree (this is not the same as religious organisation, which occasionally just like atheistic organisations hold radical ideas). As well as tolerance a healthy questioning and debate exists and is encouraged in religious circles, which shock horror why many religious people leave there religions or adapt there views against their basic orthodoxy. If you disagree visit a history book and take a spin through all the radical ideas that were initiated by those who grew up with religion and its focus on academia (DARWIN anyone). Religion isn't an indoctrination its a set of ideas ones you may consider crazy but provide a counterpoint. one might ask why in their fury against religion, why religious folk dont find living in a world with homosexuality and radical atheism so easy. After all succesive liberalising of laws regarding homosexuality and free speech have happened under Christian leaders most recently a catholic.

Oh just before someone quotes some horrible thing a Christian did let me add there are likely alot more christians than atheists in the world yet any time an atheist rapes his wife all a metal head blows through his school with a machine gun listening to alice n chains i dont blame it on there godlessness. Bad eggs, bad organisations, bad communities etc. Rwanda genocide nothing to do with religion, Russians, Chinese, even to an extent Nazis atheists who murdered the religious because they were intolerant. Something worth remembering.
Re: Freedom of Speech yes mindless generalisation not so much.
[info]hoody_youth wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 12:48 pm (UTC)
Atheist do not demand the silence of those who believe, we do not call for the head of the Pope if if he speaks out against homosexuality and if you look at the majority of major conflicts and wars in the past 2000 years you will find they were sparked by religous differences. Christianity itself was born due to religous hate and the matyr it created.
Re: Freedom of Speech yes mindless generalisation not so much. - [info]tgroves - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Freedom of Speech yes mindless generalisation not so much. - [info]blathra - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 06:21 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]zuccinho wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:43 am (UTC)
Watch what you say, Labour will revoke your passport if you get too "offensive". Nice touch that on QT tonight, the Labour Minister said he couldn't comment on past inconsistencies of letting people with fanatical views in because there was a rule about not commenting on individual cases, yet thought it was fair enough to comment about the Dutch MP. Strike me down with a feather, but have we got to the stage where the only (effective) party for one who believes in these things, the blinking Tories?
Factual Inaccuracies in this article
[info]plkjmdhfg wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 04:30 am (UTC)
While I agree with the general points in this article there are a number of inaccuracies which need to be adressed. The Egyptian Regime is a militanly secrular country that doesn't follow sharia law, Abdel Rehman was arrested for his social work. The Prophet Muhammad did marry Aisha when she was 9 (A common custom at the time) but the marriage was not consummated until she was 16. The tribe of jews who were executed were not killed because they did not follow him (Forced conversions are illegitimate in Islam) whilst they were under his protection the muslim community of medina was under seige and they defected to the other side and killed those who had given them protection. It is also important to note that the Prophet did not order this and in fact was away when this happened
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article
[info]monty_stalpiday wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:29 am (UTC)
"Factual" eh? Not only are your corrections inaccurate (though it's understandable to try to revise away a kiddy fiddling Master of the Universe), but you also seem unaware that the historical content of religious texts is less reliable than a Landrover Discovery. We might as well argue over the precise history of Santa Claus or the Balrog (though they both almost certainly existed at some time).

If you want to believe in allegory as fact, go nuts (it's probably inevitable). Just don't expect anyone else to drink your brand of cool aid. Especially your brand, since it seems to cause you to deny What Is Written.
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]hallamrebel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:18 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]hallamrebel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 03:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]anat123 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 03:49 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]hallamrebel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 04:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 03:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]praestans - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]benqurayzah - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 03:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Factual Inaccuracies in this article - [info]blacksturgeon - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 04:36 am (UTC) Expand
British Free Speech
[info]jlee3793 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 05:14 am (UTC)
It is not just in those nasty countries that we need to be vigilant about free speech. Right here in the UK we have a current example - Wilders. And the UK government is bound and determined to prevent him from entering the country - to speak. He is not being prevented from entering because he is carrying WMD, or anthrax, or a loaded 45, but simple to prevent him from speaking about his film and his ideas. It doesn't matter whether his ideas are good, bad or indifferent, that is not the issue. And it certainly doesn't matter whether I agree with his views. What matters is his right to say his piece; because I too want to say my piece. Let his arguments be presented in the light of day so that we can listen to them and refute them if we can. Again I say it's not a question of whether I like his ideas or not, or whether they are popular or not but it is a question of his right to say them. And this right is being abused this very day in the UK. And when his rights are abused mine are too.
Re: British Free Speech
[info]ameenaman wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 09:38 pm (UTC)
I feel that the Complex is the heart of hate to church is history,and wanted to practice and Muslim ?same like Hitler complex.?
I feel sad ?
[info]jilltraffs wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 05:58 am (UTC)
I completely agree with all your arguments, and appauld your decision to not apologise, for merely stating an opinion. The orginal article was brilliant and thought provoking.
Support
[info]francetta wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 06:58 am (UTC)
Take or give a few bits and pieces, I am in agreement with Johann and his views.
We live at a time where to be afraid; to be very afraid is highly relevant, what with the mad religiousty of increasingly more people. Be this Islam, Christian, judaism, etc. At the root of all this, is a shared limited and punative desire to dominate all people who do not share their form of madness.
Write on JH, please.
[info]chuck47 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:10 am (UTC)
Well and truly spoken. You have my full support. People who commit inhumane acts should be roundly criticised no matter what cloak, religious or otherwise, they hide under.
Johann Hari, let's be honest, Islamic fundamentalism is the problem, not from other religions
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:28 am (UTC)
Johann Hari: Let's be totally honest. If we are going to generalize accurately about the world right now, the problem, by and large, is islamic fundamentalists.

Not christian fundamentalists. Not Jewish fundamentalists. Not Hindu fundamentalists.

Islamic fundamentalists.

Sure, there are crazy people of all races and religions.

And yes, extremists of any kind are usually bad and negative in one way, or many ways.

But if we're going to BE HONEST and talk about a LEGIT GROWING PROBLEM in much of the world as far as religious fundamentalist wackjobs go, the problem is mostly muslim extremists.

Re: Johann Hari, let's be honest, Islamic fundamentalism is the problem, not from other religions
[info]nickynysmon09 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:01 am (UTC)
you must make a clear unequivocal distinction between common humanity and the behaviour of, I agree, fanatics. many who are Muslims are fanatical, many simply clinging to a belief system out of the wretchedness of their life. as with Christians in some barrio. we all need consolation of sorts. if the Palestinians were given their land back, and the Israelis accepted them with compassion and not from some fanatical adherence to their own superstitious religion, most of these problems would cease to exist.
The crazy type of islamic extremists who rioted, those are the insane loons Israel has to deal with
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:31 am (UTC)
When people criticize Israel all the time because they don't know how to handle the palestinians, well, the totally insane islamic extremist lunatics who rioted in india over this, well, those are the type of people that israel is up against. Yet people are still unfair and blame israel for it, which is ridiculous
Re: The crazy type of islamic extremists who rioted, those are the insane loons Israel has to deal w
[info]freethoughts99 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC)
It's interesting that you have brought this around to Israel and the 'loons Israel has to deal with' yet again. The original article did not put blame on anyone, just stated the fact that religion is now being used as the excuse to destroy the right to freedom of speech, a right any free thinking person should be able to stand up and defend.

In other posts you have repeatedly defended Israel's actions and brought your argument around to Israel always being blamed for the problems in the Middle East, whether the article references Judaism or Israel or not, or even articles that defend Israel. While frequently using language that expresses your belief that the writers are being Anti-Semitic (We can talk about that phrase another day if you want).

Since you appear to know so much about this issue could you please explain to me the difference between an Islamic Fundamentalist and a Zionist Settler? Do they not both profess extreme versions of their respective religions? Are they so different that should someone comment that 'Zionism is a 'lunatic' corruption of Judaism' a Zionist Settler will not riot in the same way as the 'insane islamic extremist lunatics' you seem to know so much about? If they are forcibly removed from their homes - do they not riot and defend their homes the same way 'insane islamic extremist lunatics' do? (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/07/israel.olmert.pogrom/index.html)

Extremism of any religion is a very dangerous thing. But to attempt to restrict another persons view of religious extremism to any one group is as much an attempted repression of free speech as those 'insane islamic extremist lunatics' rioting in India were demanding.
My support of Hoiahann hari, unequivocal
[info]nickynysmon09 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:39 am (UTC)
unequivocally, i agree with Johann Hari on all these points made in the article. what this whole situation of voicing ones opinion of Islam and any other religious viewpoint shows is the sheer irrationality of all religion. I think the situation can be summed up in a few words. religion, and I would say Islam more than most, takes on the mental and emotional characteristic of its adherents. those who think in brief emotional spasms, are swayed by their lower minds, will interpret their religion accordingly, thus as with much of Christianity in the past, one is hide bound by theology, and the rational mind is given little sway.
a person more in tune with violence and easy answers, will take on a fundamentalist viewpoint, and become fanatical about his or her beliefs. these are the ones who are opposed to rational thought and use easy quick solutions that bypass societies rules, . also they seek refuge in silly texts, things written long ago, and see the conundrums in these texts as proof of higher things, when in fact all that is being seen are contradictions. thus Christians often believe that Jesus was some aspect of the so called godhead. and Muslims seem to think the Koran was given by Allah. both highly irrational ideas. they should be condemned.
in summary, all religion is simply a manifestation of the mind of those who prefer to believe in it. it is the sum total of the contents and workings of the human mind. this is the simple truth and the reason we have so much religious conflict. we project our own mental workings on the religion we seek to follow unless we are mature enough not to need a religion.
as for Johann Hari and those like him, his simple courage in putting forth his viewpoint on all this should be congratulated.
[info]mr_cardiacs wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:04 am (UTC)
I have nothing special to add, but just wanted to voice my 110% support for your decision not to apologise. I wish you and everyone involved in this dire, sickening mess all the best.
some afterthoughts - [info]nickynysmon09 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC) Expand
Thought worth fighting for; the article though....
[info]bilalnawaz wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:46 am (UTC)
Intellectual essays on religion, society, atheism etc should be well balanced; something which is lacking in the current article. Using specific examples to come to generalizations; the pen is the most powerful weapon Johann. Treat it with the same respect that you fight for people being subjugated by arcane religious beliefs.

And let us be frank about one basic thing: not all critique of religion, whether it comes from Salman Rushdie, Geert Wilders or Johann Hari is based on sound academic knowledge. Saying an incorrect thing with righteous fury is just as bad as a religious fanatic's hate talk!

I have been agnostic and believe in islam again now but have always respected others' pseudo-intelligent talks about religions. Johann has noble aspirations and he does make one thing about the evolution of religious laws with times but there is an element of intellectual coarseness about the essay that does take the sting off it. A pity!

Re: Thought worth fighting for; the article though....
[info]nickynysmon09 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:03 am (UTC)
very very shrewdly put!!!!
Re: Thought worth fighting for; the article though.... - [info]jack_knightley - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Thought worth fighting for; the article though.... - [info]damianphipps - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Mumbo Jumbo
[info]zansal wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 07:55 am (UTC)
What's the difference between a Psychotic a Neurotic and a Theist?

A Psychotic believes 2 + 2 = 5 and is obsessed with this discovery.
A Neurotic believes 2 +2 = 5 but hates it.
A Theist believes 2 + 2 = 5 and will stone, hang, burn at the stake, imprison, persecute, condemn to hell anyone who thinks otherwise or even suggests there may be a different answer.

The human race faces a stark choice today : whether to return to the darkness of religious bigotry or fight free of these ancient mysticisms and embrace tolerance, free thinking and creativity.
Tolerance
[info]1101frettchen wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:00 am (UTC)
"No man truly obeys the Masonic law who merely tolerates those whose religious opinions are opposed to his own. Every man's opinions are his own private property, and the rights of all men to maintain each his own are perfectly equal. Merely to tolerate, to bear with an opposing opinion, is to assume it to be heretical, and assert the right to persecute,if we would, and claim our toleration as a merit."

Freedom of speech must be preserved
[info]impikey wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC)
Well done Johann, thankfully someone with sense and understanding of humanity exists in a position to be heard. People should be uniting, not dividing - we are one race living on one planet - we must get on if we are to progress.
freedom of speech
[info]indiereader wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC)
I agree totally with Johann, and I always enjoy reading his articles, even when I don't agree with them. That puts me (us, I suspect) in a minority; most people don't like having their views challenged, being much more comfortable to have them endorsed, which may explain why some people don't seem to value free speech as much as they ought to.

I would take issue when Johann says he gets 'offended' sometimes. I think we should expunge this word from the media as much as possible because its use has degenerated into a political tactic exploited by those who want to suppress the views of others. The moment you claim to be 'offended' you have moved from rational thought to emotional thought and, often, into the realms of self-righteousness, victimhood, apecial protection, coercion, redress and compensation. It's no surprise that religious fundamentalists do that because they really have no rational arguments to offer. But that's no reason for the rest of us to roll over in the face of demands for 'respect'.

The word 'offensive' should be reserved for ad hominem attacks, or bad smells.
110% support for jihann hari
[info]ebbi581 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:24 am (UTC)
i personally fully and unconditionally support his views regarding the special privileges that religions and islam specifically are enjoying in europe. it is enough and this appeasement by the authorities would only escalate the situation.this problem only need open , honest debate as its the culture of uk and europe.
totallt agree with johann hari.
NEVER apologise
[info]selfish_gene36 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:26 am (UTC)
I think it is essential that everyone who agrees with and supports Hari should express their support.
[info]stevie_eons wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:28 am (UTC)
Hey Johan

Can't disagree with some of your conclusions, but in the interests of free speech, perhaps the fact that atheism has shed a whole of blood in the past 100 years precisely because it stretched beyond itself into political ideology has to be explored. Free speech means allowing your own opinions to come under scrutiny. Despite Dawkins' delusions there IS a causal link between atheism and the gulags in the former Soviet Union. The lack of freedom of speech and a single-minded commitment to atheism as been a marker of every Marxist regime. There has yet to be an avowedly atheistic regime that has ever allowed its opinions to come under scrutiny in the public marketplace. Whilst much of the adverse reaction to your article, which as I said contained some kernels of truth, came from the "bottom up", almost all restriction of religion comes from the top down. Every time a group attempts to universalise atheistic beliefs in any country the result has always been misery and a shutdown of free speech, just as it is any time any group times to universalise its religious beliefs. Atheism has as bad a track record as everything else in this regards
[info]triestine wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:04 am (UTC)
As an atheist, I must agree with this comment: religion or lack thereof do not give much of an indication of a person's moral worth.
(no subject) - [info]fdskhdfsk - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:56 pm (UTC) Expand
re: Comments - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 09:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Comments - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 03:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Comments - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 05:21 am (UTC) Expand
Historical revisionism doesn't help. - [info]damianphipps - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:32 pm (UTC) Expand
In support of Hari - NEVER APOLOGISE
[info]selfish_gene36 wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:35 am (UTC)
I'm behind you with every single part of my being. I think it's essential that others who agree should express their support for Hari.
Still doesn't get it
[info]plenco wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:44 am (UTC)
I'm impressed by the clarity and passion of the comments here, but depressed by their fear and aggression which Johann's article seems to promote.

I think the problem here is that Johann will not admit (and is not trying to admit) that his ideas about free speech are every bit as arbitrary (and historically, currently, and in the future will surely cause as much suffering in the world) as religious beliefs or any number of secular and scientific 'truths'. When he writes that "A religious idea is just an idea somebody had a long time ago, and claimed to have received from God" he shows that he does not understand what ideas are. His lack of respect for ideas and his arrogance are thus simply offensive.

I believe we should, ideally, be able to discuss (not broadside) religion in a public forum, but sadly Johann Hari is another example of liberal piety gone very wrong. His views are not the pinnacle of human enlightenment and should be treated accordingly. I'm not a journalist, so I cannot understand those particular beliefs in professional integrity and so on, but nevertheless I think the Independent should simply get rid of Mr. Hari.
Re: Still doesn't get it
[info]louise_hitchin wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 09:02 am (UTC)
Lack of respect for ideas?!! What a load of rubbish! Why should anyone have respect for ideas which lead to human beings suffering, being persecuted, tortured, intimidated and even murdered? Why does religion deserve any respect? Do you respect people who believe that the earth is flat, simply because it's an idea?
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]ms_juris - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]triestine - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:07 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 03:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 12:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 03:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 10:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Monday, 16 February 2009 at 08:31 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]aegistx - Sunday, 8 March 2009 at 07:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]tobyandtoby - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 03:14 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]damianphipps - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:49 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 12:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]damianphipps - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 03:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Monday, 16 February 2009 at 08:18 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]dinsylwy - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 08:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 08:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]brackenberry - Monday, 16 February 2009 at 08:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]pw201 - Tuesday, 17 February 2009 at 09:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]plenco - Thursday, 19 February 2009 at 09:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]pw201 - Friday, 20 February 2009 at 03:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Still doesn't get it - [info]tobyandtoby - Sunday, 29 March 2009 at 03:50 am (UTC) Expand
The world would be a better place without religion...
[info]louise_hitchin wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC)
JOHANN HARI IS SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I only wish there were more people like him speaking up for all of us atheists.
Religion
[info]geofffree wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 08:47 am (UTC)
Ban ALL religion...........it's a daft idea.
Geoff Powell
Re: Religion
[info]omarbatistuta wrote:
Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:42 am (UTC)
Mate, religion is a way of life. So, you are unknowingly following a religion as well, whatever it is. Could be worship of money, your desires, power, etc.
Re: Religion - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 10:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion - [info]bbc4israel - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion - [info]arthur_ide - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Page 1 of 9
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Columnist Comments

andrew_grice

Andrew Grice: Enough of the philosophy, Mr Cameron.

Think-tanks play an important role in politics. But they have their limits.

christina_patterson

Christina Patterson: Very nice - but forgiveness is overrated

Sometimes, as Lydon sang, in his post Sex Pistols band, 'anger is an energy.'

mary_dejevsky

Mary Dejevsky: Why not call Blair now and wrap it up?

The enquiry already seems like a sideline as the queues dwindle.


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