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Johann Hari: The three fallacies that have driven the war in Afghanistan

Case for escalating the war is based on premises that turn to dust on inspection

51 per cent of Americans polled by the Washington Post say the war in Afghanistan is 'not worth fighting'

51 per cent of Americans polled by the Washington Post say the war in Afghanistan is 'not worth fighting'

Is Barack Obama about to drive his Presidency into a bloody ditch strewn with corpses? The President is expected any day now to announce his decision about the future of the war in Afghanistan. He knows US and British troops have now been stationed in the hell-mouth of Helmand longer than the First and Second World Wars combined – yet the mutterings from the marble halls of Washington DC suggest he may order a troop escalation.

Obama has to decide now whether to side with the American people and the Afghan people calling for a rapid reduction in US force, or with a small military clique demanding a ramping-up of the conflict. The populations of both countries are in close agreement. The latest Washington Post poll shows that 51 per cent of Americans say the war is "not worth fighting" and that ending the foreign occupation will "reduce terrorism". Only 27 per cent disagree. At the other end of the gun-barrel, 77 per cent of Afghans in the latest BBC poll say the on-going US air strikes are "unacceptable", and the US troops should only remain if they are going to provide reconstruction assistance rather than bombs.

But there is another side: General Stanley McCrystal says that if he is given another 40,000 troops – on top of the current increase which has pushed military levels above anything in the Bush years – he will "finally win" by "breaking the back" of the Taliban and al-Qa'ida.

How should Obama – and us, the watching world – figure out who is right? We have to start from a hard-headed acknowledgement. Every option from here entails a risk – to Afghan civilians, and to Americans and Europeans. It is not possible to achieve absolute safety. We can only try to figure out what would bring the least risk, and pursue it.

There is obviously a huge risk in sending an extra 40,000 machine-gun wielding troops into a country they don't understand to "clear" huge areas of insurgent fighters who look exactly like the civilian population, and establish "control" of places that have never been controlled by a central government at any point in their history.

Every military counter-insurgency strategy hits up against the probability that it will, in time, create more enemies than it kills. So you blow up a suspected Taliban site and kill two of their commanders – but you also kill 98 women and children, whose families are from that day determined to kill your men and drive them out of their country. Those aren't hypothetical numbers. They come from Lt. Col. David Kilcullen, who was General Petraeus' counter-insurgency advisor in Iraq. He says that US aerial attacks on the Afghan-Pakistan border have killed 14 al-Qa'ida leaders, at the expense of more than 700 civilian lives. He says: "That's a hit rate of 2 per cent on 98 per cent collateral. It's not moral." It explains the apparent paradox that broke the US in Vietnam: the more "bad guys" you kill, the more you have to kill.

There is an even bigger danger than this. General Petraeus's strategy is to drive the Taliban out of Afghanistan. When he succeeds, they run to Pakistan – where the nuclear bombs are.

To justify these risks, the proponents of the escalation need highly persuasive arguments to show how their strategy slashed other risks so dramatically that it outweighed these dangers. It's not inconceivable – but I found that in fact the case they give for escalating the war, or for continuing the occupation, is based on three premises that turn to Afghan dust on inspection.

Argument One: We need to deprive al-Qa'ida of military bases in Afghanistan, or they will use them to plot attacks against us, and we will face 9/11 redux. In fact, virtually all the jihadi attacks against Western countries have been planned in those Western countries themselves, and required extremely limited technological capabilities or training. The 9/11 atrocities were planned in Hamburg and Florida by 19 Saudis who only needed to know how to use box-cutters and to crash a plane. The 7/7 suicide-murders were planned in Yorkshire by young British men who learned how to make bombs off the internet. Only last week, a jihadi was arrested for plotting to blow up a skyscraper in that notorious jihadi base, Dallas, Texas. And on, and on.

In reality, there are almost no al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. That's not my view: it's that of General Jim Jones, the US National Security Advisor. He said last week there were 100 al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. That's worth repeating: there are 100 al-Qa'ida fighters in Afghanistan. Nor is that a sign that the war is working. The Taliban or warlords friendly to them already control 40 per cent of Afghanistan now, today. They can build all the "training camps" they want there – but they have only found a hundred fundamentalist thugs to staff them.

Even if – and this is highly unlikely – you could plug every hole in the Afghan state's authority and therefore make it possible to shut down every camp, there are a dozen other failed states they can scuttle off to the next day and pitch some more tents. Again, that's not my view. Leon Panetta, head of the CIA, says: "As we disrupt [al-Qa'ida], they will seek other safe havens. Somalia and Yemen are potential al-Qa'ida bases in the future." The US can't occupy every failed state in the world for decades – so why desperately try to plug one hole in a bath full of leaks, when the water will only seep out anyway?

There are plenty of Taliban fighters in Afghanistan – but they are a different matter to al-Qa'ida. The latest leaked US intelligence reports say, according to the Boston Globe, that 90 per cent of them are "a tribal, localised insurgency" who "see themselves as opposing the US because it is an occupying power". They have "no goals" beyond Afghanistan's borders.

Argument Two: By staying, we are significantly improving Afghan human rights, especially for women. This, for me, is the meatiest argument – and the most depressing. The Taliban are indeed one of the vilest forces in the world, imprisoning women in their homes and torturing them for the "crimes" of showing their faces, expressing their sexuality, or being raped. They keep trying to murder my friend Malalai Joya for the "crime" of being elected to parliament on a platform of treating women like human beings not cattle.

But as she told me last month: "Your governments have replaced the fundamentalist rule of the Taliban with another fundamentalist regime of warlords." Outside Kabul, vicious Taliban who enforce sharia law have merely been replaced by vicious warlords who enforce sharia law. "The situation now is as catastrophic as it was under the Taliban for women," she said. Any Afghan president – Karzai, or his opponents – will only ever in practice be the mayor of Kabul. Beyond is a sea of warlordism, as evil to women as Mullah Omar. That is not a difference worth fighting and dying for.

Argument Three: If we withdraw, it will be a great victory for al-Qa'ida. Re-energised, they will surge out across the world. In fact, in November 2004, Osama bin Laden bragged to his followers: "All that we have to do is to send two mujahedeen [jihadi fighters] to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written "al-Qa'ida" in order to make generals race there, and we cause America to suffer human, economic and political losses – without their achieving anything of note!" These wars will, he said, boost al-Qa'ida recruitment across the world, and in time "bankrupt America". They walked right into his trap.

Yes, there is real risk in going – but it is dwarfed by the risk of staying. A bloody escalation in the war is more likely to fuel jihadism than thwart it. If Obama is serious about undermining this vile fanatical movement, it would be much wiser to take the hundreds of billions he is currently squandering on chasing after a hundred fighters in the Afghan mountains and redeploy it. Spend it instead on beefing up policing and intelligence, and on building a network of schools across Pakistan and other flash-points in the Muslim world, so parents there have an alternative to the fanatical madrassahs that churn out bin Laden-fodder. The American people will be far safer if the world sees them building schools for Muslim kids instead of dropping bombs on them.

He can explain – with his tongue dipped in amazing eloquence – that trying to defeat al-Qa'ida with hundreds of thousands of occupying troops and Predator jets is like trying to treat cancer with a blowtorch. Now, that really would deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

j.hari@independent.co.uk

You can follow Johann Hari on Twitter at http://twitter.com/johannhari101

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all smoke and mirrors
[info]someofusknow wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 11:25 pm (UTC)
Since the US was a strong supporter of Osama bin Laden and Afghan freedom fighter is the 80s and 90s, and there never was any connection between Afghanistan and 9/11 -an inside job, orchestrated by Bush and Cheney- - it is now perfectly obvious that it's all smoke and mirrors designed to keep armaments factories busy and keep the heroin trade buoyant.
Re: all smoke and mirrors
[info]rain1950 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:15 am (UTC)
al-Qaeda the Data Base


http://wp.me/p4271-1su
Re: all smoke and mirrors - [info]brother_louis - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: all smoke and mirrors - [info]lesinge1961 - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:00 pm (UTC) Expand
War without reason
[info]marcind wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 11:32 pm (UTC)
I find Johann Hari one of the few jounalists who make sense. Fortunately my advancing years makes my opinion unimportant so may I suggest, that the powers that be, continue to make a wonderfull mess of all they strive to try and control, because they cannot control what they do not understand.
Afghanistan is just a training area for our soldiers and the women and children who suffer would prefer to support their menfolk than anything else. Its not that they are right or wrong, its just that if it was about the bhurka we would have supported the russians.
Al quaida is a name for those who you cannot identify and of whom you are fearful. Its not that they are not a threat, its just that they are not the threat you promote.
Re: War without reason
[info]chris_c_d wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:49 am (UTC)
I am not exactly comfortable to hear a columnist (could it be he is a JOURNALIST?) who repeatedly shows he knows nothing about life, over and above that on "Campus", comment on matters he obviously has no knowledge, but for someone who says they are of "Advancing years" and thereby presumably has experience of life in general, to accept his selective ravings is, to say the least a bit un-nerving, I mean, there is someone out there who has experience real life and agrees with this pratt, come on. Hari is rubbish. Some of his observations could be interesting, and I may even agree with them, but his arrogance and obvious lack of knowledge on subjects on the bottom line finish it for me.

Loser!
Re: War without reason - [info]reinertorheit - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: War without reason - [info]llienomot - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: War without reason - [info]drooosh - Friday, 30 October 2009 at 10:22 am (UTC) Expand
Arguement 4
[info]had_it wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 11:47 pm (UTC)
We gave the Afghani's our word. Oops, sorry, how 19th century of me.
Re: Arguement 4
[info]andrewholt wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:05 am (UTC)
"We gave Afghan our word" ?

Who is this "we" ? Afghanistan was invaded in the teeth of public opposition. The governments of the US & UK made promises on my behalf, promises that I will not be bound to.

Re: Arguement 4 - [info]had_it - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Arguement 4 - [info]andrewholt - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:29 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Arguement 4 - [info]dnmurphy - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Arguement 4 - [info]andrewholt - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Arguement 4 - [info]jimfred - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 06:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Arguement 4 - [info]reinertorheit - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 10:03 am (UTC) Expand
Particularly Stupid War...
[info]infangthief wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:22 am (UTC)

Not a bad article by Mr Hari though he still waddles out the canard of "Muslim terrorists did 9/11".
Re: Particularly Stupid War...
[info]jonswan wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:28 pm (UTC)
Anyone who says that 9/11 was Bush and Cheney are desperate, dreary fantasists - you think they were smart enough to keep thousands of voices quiet? Utter nonsense - there's not much I despise more than glory seeking conspiracy theorists.

And Chris_c_d; saying Hari is a loser is devoid of all logic - a loser at what? That is bizarre coming from someone whose sentences go on for five lines and make no sense whatsoever and don't have the basics of simple punctuation. One thing Hari cannot be accused of is arrogance - I really advise you to seek out a good dictionary.

Mr. Hari, I think you may be right on Afghanistan.
Re: Particularly Stupid War... - [info]llienomot - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:49 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Particularly Stupid War... - [info]filbert8 - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]thomasth wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:33 am (UTC)
Well at last Johann has got it right, and researched it properly - glad he's matured since his overt support for Blair's Iraq fiasco (we can all make mistakes)
[info]chris_c_d wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:57 am (UTC)
Hari, matured, Ha!
[info]laurie58 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:54 am (UTC)
Yes, I think much of what Hari says makes sense. There is no easy answer. Military force has its limitations, especially in a situation like Afghanistan. I would like to see some fresh approaches to this conflict. Otherwise, believe me, we'll be mired there for years to come.
Why not?
[info]tim_bee wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:14 am (UTC)
Why not rope off a safe zone, say in the north, where people can live Taliban free?
This could be a showcase to people of the south of how peace and prosperity can be attained by throwing off the yoke of Taliban and fundamentalist repression. Maybe the safe zone can be enlargened over the years as the population accepts this.
This war will not be won through fighting, it will be won through convincing Afghans that peace and moderation are in their best interests.
Re: Why not?
[info]vangryman wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:19 am (UTC)
Ah yes, the impenetrable barrier that is rope. No jihadist will ever be able to get by that. That's why there's never been a terrorist attack on a bank, those velvet queue ropes scare & confuse extremists.
Re: Why not? - [info]matt_91912113 - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Why not? - [info]vangryman - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:31 pm (UTC) Expand
what took you so long?
[info]a_al_amin wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:15 am (UTC)
All your observations have been true since 2002.

Why do you wait so long, Johan?
In the mean time orders of magnitude civilians died in Afghanistan than in 9/11.
Is muslim blood that cheap?

No need to tell, actions speak louder than a few nice talks by an idol president.

Afghan energy
[info]bamberpanda wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:57 am (UTC)
Brilliantly put, as usual, but avoiding a powerful material reason for the Afghan war: the gas pipe across the badlands from the Kazakh gas fields to the markets of the West. Allegedly, 40% of total gas reserves lie waiting there. The alternative is to pipe thru Russian-dominated territory. Unacceptable? Well, apparently to the powermongering reptiles who make top decisions. Will more troops march in to die? Do Gordon Geckos like sitting on a rock eating flies? Bamberpanda
Re: Afghan energy
[info]brother_louis wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 05:43 am (UTC)
How depressing - whatever the rights and wrongs of the war in Afghanistan I just can't believe that the old gas pipeline baloney is still being trotted out (and still believed). It's a load of old horse manure that has been disproved numerous times - yet it still manages to get an audience.

We must not allow the true debate about the real issues in Afghanistan and elsewhere to be be sidetracked by nonsense like this. Let's have a real debate about the real issues - and gas pipeline conspiracy fantasies are not real issues only distractions.
Re: Afghan energy - [info]bamberpanda - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:17 pm (UTC) Expand
The Reason for the War
[info]martin44 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:39 am (UTC)
The reason is that the Taliban under the still active Mullah Omar refused to give up their guests, al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, to face trial for the mass murder on 9/11. That group was effectively a puppet government of Usama bin Laden but currently are independent from him due to their current willingness to fund themselves un-Islamically as they themselves may see it from poppy earnings. Nevertheless, the group cannot be permitted to benefit from flouting humanitarian law by abetting mass murder. That is one reason why the war should continue and send an explicit message to whoever is currently hiding that man, ibn Laden, and his leadership group that they, too, will be targeted and that he will be made to face trial for his crimes.
Re: The Reason for the War
[info]planetjustice wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:39 am (UTC)

AL QAIDA means the base, fundationor the formula.

not (the database) and their aim was to establich khalifa based on the principal of the islamic culture and law .to be able to get reed of the moslem world corrupt leaders and to be able to join the rest of the developed country based on their own idendity and their aim was never to kill or destroy other culture etc to be able to find a solution to any problem we have to understand it (honestly with the correct information) it is the first step.
do not be fooled bu johan.h his view or analist have been biassed always bleard by his hatered.

the war on afganistan and irak was a revenge before anything else and the economics reason were the bonnus (spoil of war) subjugating the afgani and iraky populas by apouinting a puppet leader
they the U S A has done it in latin and central america and other countries. for a long time
however thank the almighty the waking up of some southamerican leaders put a stop to it
now what will happened in Afganistan and Irak is unknown yet.I hope the USA fail not because they are americain. but because their arrogant and injust governement,lets not forget there is a lot of dicent just humble and honest American like jemmy carter
Re: The Reason for the War - [info]ancientoneuk - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Reason for the War - [info]arthur_ide - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 02:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Reason for the War - [info]catesby23 - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Reason for the War - [info]martin44 - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 03:55 am (UTC) Expand
Hari is missing the point - follow the money!
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 04:25 am (UTC)
The war in Afghanistan has nothing to do with political or military issues, it is economic. The 'military-industrial complex' mentioned by President Eisenhower is the reason for the conflict.

Since 1945 a large part of US industry has found easy profit in making weapons. These weapons must be used frequently to ensure that more can be made and further development funded.

Look at the history of US wars since 1945, Korea, VIetnam, Haiti, Lebanon, Somalia and Grenada. Apart from the last, all were clear defeats despite the overwhelming financial, technical and numerical superiority of the American forces.

The Us must seek conflict in order to sustain such an economic model. Until the US economy changes there will b e no end to such wars.
The biggest fallacy is imagining that you have a choice - I
[info]find_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 05:14 am (UTC)
As Ehud Barak said, you can't win an occupation [much less an occupation against 45 million warlike Pashtuns]. Your only choice is the size of your humiliation.

Berlin 2001: Missed opportunity for zero humiliation

If the Yanks had been less arrogant and greedy during the last Berlin meeting with the Taliban in July 2001, where they insulted them with the "carpet of gold or carpet of bombs" offer, there would have been zero humiliation. The Yanks wanted the Talibs to share power with the leader of the northern alliance crooks, Ahmad Shah Mahsoud, for the simple reason that the Talibs hadn't managed to complete obliterate the Northern Alliance and therefore make the whole of the country safe for UNOCAL's Turkmenistan to Pakistan gas pipeline. Mahsoud, based in the Hindu Kush mountains near the Uzbek border, could still blow up the pipeline if he wasn't offered a piece of the gas pie. The Yanks had refused Mahsoud's pleas for arms until then because they were banking on the Taliban's total victory. When it became apparent that Mahsoud could hold out indefinitely, they started pressuring the Talibs, in a series of meetings under UN auspices, to share power with the hated Tajik and Uzbek bandits. The Pak ISI killed Mahsoud to upset the Yank game-plan but the Yanks simply found another stooge: UNOCAL employee Hamid Karzai.

Was Osama never the issue? Of course he was. Osama was a rogue CIA agent, having been betrayed by the firm after the Soviet pull-out, when the CIA assassinated Pakistan's sharia-loving jihadi dictator Zia and the equally fanatical head of the ISI, replacing them with Yank puppets, who ordered the Afghanistan jihadis to launch a suicide attack against Jalalabad with the sole aim of getting as many jihadis as possible killed. Osama never forgave the Yanks for trying to pull the plug on the jihad and started using his CIA rolodex of jihadis, called "al Qaida" (the database) in CIA-speak, to wreak revenge. He obviously could not be allowed to roam free in the vicinity of a strategic gas pipeline.
The biggest fallacy is imagining that you have a choice - II
[info]find_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 05:16 am (UTC)
October 2001: Missed opportunity for near-zero humiliation

By completely switching sides and backing the Northern Alliance narco-criminals 100% during their invasion of Pakistan, the Yanks missed a second opportunity for near-zero humiliation. In time-honored tribal fashion, a compromise could have been reached after the Taliban rout began under a rain of B-52 bombs. The Yanks did, after all, allow the Pakistanis to repatriate their ISI officers and other evildoers at Kunduz during what the press at the time called "the airlift of evil." If they were able to hold their fire and jaw-jaw with Pak, why not with the Talibs? All the Yanks had to do was talk with Mullah Omar and tell him he had to make peace with the Northern Alliance and make sure nothing happened to disrupt the flow of gas and money. Afghans negotiate all the time when they are killing each other. The shooting is just part of the bargaining. They knew that long before Clausewitz did.

Wouldn't it have looked bad if the Yanks allowed the guys they accused of 9-11 to remain in Kabul? Some sort of fudge could have been achieved, like kicking Osama out - the Yanks obviously didn't want to capture or kill him, as they proved by missing countless opportunities to do so. But in their supreme arrogance and greed, the Yanks thought they could kick around 45 million "towelheads" with a tiny fraction of the troops they deployed to lose the Vietnam war against a far less numerous and less warlike enemy.

Now, with every day that passes without a deal, the Taliban gain more ground and are less willing to settle for anything less than the traditional tribal way of achieving victory, namely by killing their enemy to the last man and torturing as many of them as painfully as they can. The Russians pulled out when they realized that nothing was worth a war against 45 million warriors, not because of the CIA's $50 billion of the Stingers (they licked the Stinger problem in a few months).

When Ehud Barak said you can't win an occupation, he hadn't traded shots with the Taliban or stepped in a Taliban IED field. His experience was limited to the Palestinians and the Lebanese Hezbollah, none of whom learned to fire an AK almost as soon as they could walk and could aim an RPG before they lost their baby teeth. The word "humiliation" somehow doesn't quite cover what the Taliban are about to do to the Yanks, the Brits, and to NATO as a whole.
Re: The biggest fallacy is imagining that you have a choice - II
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:37 pm (UTC)
Hehe it was funny reading about the CIA crawling about the tribal areas asking nicely for their Stingers back to be met with "Stingers... what Stingers? Dunno what you talking about mate" and apparently recovered some 2% overall of the missiles freely given out like sweets...
Quantum Leaps ... already made in HyperRadioProActive IT Head Quarters.
[info]amanfrommars wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 05:18 am (UTC)
Whenever the Phantom being chased, or the One that would imagine itself to be in powerful overall Establishment control rules Hearts and Minds from CyberSpace, and needs do no more than Present from such a Lawless and Uncontrollable Virtual Place, an argument/view that renders transparent and clearly explained, the simple controls used by opponents/competitors to pervert and subvert powers for fabulous personal enrichment with the realisation of their wishes and wildest dreams, are both Wars and Battles lost and their Commanders-in-Chief identified as Unfit for Future Leading and Supporting Purpose in ...... AI Virtualised World Order ProgramMING.

The Money Shot Question is .......... when will you realise that Virtual Machinery has usurped and replaced traditional means of Asset Control without IT having to Mock Stage another Collapse Raid on the Ponzi QEBanking System as a White Hat Red Team Crack CodeXSSXXXX Demonstration of the Abiding Achilles Heel Vulnerability which Attracts All Manner of Life to ITs Artificial, and Intelligently Designed for Man's Weakness, Sticky Sweet Honey Traps.

It is a very Simple and Undeniably Accurate Fact that give a Being what they need and you will Control them Absolutely with their Wishes, and who then would be Leading with such Dream/Wish Control, is a Mutually Beneficial Steganographically Protected SurReal Enigmatic Riddle with Perfect Purple Patch Prose Delivery Systems.
excellent points
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 06:24 am (UTC)
all well made
CERTAIN SUBJECTS ARE TABOO
[info]georgesign wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 06:27 am (UTC)
I'm not interested in the usual waffle from Hari so I apologise for using this space to air a problem. Does anyone else notice that there are certain subjects you are not allowed to comment on? One is Nick Griffin the other is when you criticise Blair especially if it's a John Rentoul piece. The comment just disappears. What is the Independent afraid of?
Re: CERTAIN SUBJECTS ARE TABOO
[info]reinertorheit wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)

John does, indeed, have a "unique" approach to blogging. Since he only ever blogs about Tony Blair, the phenomenon you mention happens frequently.
Afghanistan
[info]rooster281 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:00 am (UTC)
At last, an intelligent article from Johann Hari.
Vietnam again
[info]chiennoir wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:11 am (UTC)
It seems to me that the more military force you use against a people, the more they resist you. The more Western interference in the Islamic world, the more you alienate the goodwill of the people and fuel the rise and support of extremist groups. Newton put it in a nutshell. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sending more troops to Afghanistan will only increase the alienation and resistance of the Afghan people. Did these idiots learn nothing from Vietnam?
Re: Vietnam again
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 10:18 am (UTC)
Sending British troops into France to drive out the Nazi's didn't increase French resistance to the British. care to explain that.
Re: Vietnam again - [info]ancientoneuk - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Vietnam again - [info]matt_91912113 - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:44 pm (UTC) Expand
afganhistan
[info]alanburden wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:13 am (UTC)
A good article by J.Hari.In my opinion he is quite right. I do however dispute an attitude he displays. I do not for one minute argue in favour of Bin Laden but to say he only has to'brag' to alter the course of American policy actually serves to diminish hiis altogether more significant influence. He is adept at this sort of manipulation. The word 'brag' would have been much more appropriately used to describe the asinine behaviour of the previous American president,who, if I remember correctly was a certain G. Twiglet, sorry Bush
Deja vu
[info]exogamist wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:18 am (UTC)
I’m reading James W Douglass’ ‘JFK and the Unspeakable.’ It paints a haunting portrait of a beleaguered John F Kennedy in the run-up to his assassination, facing terrible pressure from the Pentagon and military-industrial complex to ramp up the Cold War; by invading Cuba, confronting the Soviet Union over the Cuban Missiles; and escalating the Vietnam War. Such was his isolation in his desire for peace that amazingly Soviet Premier Kruschchev told his foreign minister Gromyko ‘We have to let Kennedy know that we want to help him.’ Kennedy was poised on a similar brink that Obama stands on now, and no doubt facing similar pressures to make perpetual war. All so depressingly familiar.
Terrorists?
[info]landsker wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 07:29 am (UTC)
Not a bad piece from Mr Hari, but once again following the official line of "19 Saudis with box-cutters did 9/11".

Most other European journalists have given up on peddling that little canard.....,the internet has exposed the facts, and only in Britain and the US does the media continue blaming "the muslims", whereas the rest of the world sees it as an "inside job".
Richard Lyons
[info]linseysdawn wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 08:53 am (UTC)
You want to give up and go home?
You coward.
Our soldiers live to fight, and want our support, not this kind of shit being peddled back at home.

Our country entered this war, and it is up to us to fight to the finish. The situation with the local warlords getting their dirty paws involved on 'our side' is enough to make me want to puke. However this was a just war, enacted for concrete reasons. (unlike in Iraq)
We should broker a deal with unconquered territories, or carry on fighting. The casualty list is small compared to an engagement with a Western power. The losses are piffling. They AREN'T piffling to the soldiers being killed because they have shit equipment, or being told the war is a waste of time. The families are in hell... but Johnny Taliban is having the SHIT kicked out of him, and will continue to do so.

Because our troops (no jingoism just fact) are the finest in the world.
Everyone loves the soldiers when they are winning.
Any chance of peace and they are subject to cutbacks, treated like dirt on civvy street, but as soon as we are attacked, Hurrah for them.

Basically my point is, we have fought to win. The USA would have won in Vietnam if Westmoreland had been given the same latitude as Giap.

Essentially we should listen to the generals and accept their views as to whether they can win. Politicians, and bleeding hearts LOSE wars. If the majority of commanding officers on the ground believe we CANNOT win then we should leave. Until then, it's not for bloody journalists to say.
Re: Richard Lyons
[info]reinertorheit wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:08 am (UTC)

Fool.
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]linseysdawn - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]reinertorheit - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 12:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Warmonger? - [info]linseysdawn - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Warmonger? - [info]reinertorheit - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]corporeal_v001 - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]linseysdawn - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 07:49 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]corporeal_v001 - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 09:29 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]nilcarbarundum - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 01:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]linseysdawn - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 07:48 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]llienomot - Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 03:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]linseysdawn - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 07:48 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]llienomot - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 06:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Richard Lyons - [info]goatbucket - Thursday, 22 October 2009 at 06:56 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]plenco wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:49 am (UTC)
Despite the fact that I disagree with the author on identity politics issues, it seems in this area, at least, he is able to productively piece together newpaper features.

But in the present polemic: although I think Mr. Hari is entitled to his opinion, such superficial musings (which to my mind resemble quite closely the scare tactics of the American right) do little to advance the debate on what the Obama administration should do in Afghanistan.

There were so many vague claims, non sequiturs, and hidden premises in todays 'blog' that I could barely finish it. From boredom more than disapproval.

Please, Independent, give him something else to write about.
Thanks Johann
[info]hodgeey wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 09:49 am (UTC)
It is reading common sense articles like yours that gives me hope that ordinary people will realise what is going on, and depose the crooks who run our Government.
War without reason
[info]ellman_1 wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 10:09 am (UTC)
Thank goodness for Johann Hari. The hundreds of billions we have spent in Afghanistan (and Iraq) have done little more than swell the ranks of the Jihadists. This is becoming increasingly obvious every day. Congratulations Blair, Bush and the rest!

David.
Re: War without reason
[info]jimfred wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 06:12 pm (UTC)
True
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