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Johann Hari: The truths Copenhagen ignored

The politicians have chosen low taxes and oil money today over survival tomorrow

So that's it. The world's worst polluters – the people who are drastically altering the climate – gathered here in Copenhagen to announce they were going to carry on cooking, in defiance of all the scientific warnings.

They didn't seal the deal; they sealed the coffin for the world's low-lying islands, its glaciers, its North Pole, and millions of lives.

Those of us who watched this conference with open eyes aren't surprised. Every day, practical, intelligent solutions that would cut our emissions of warming gases have been offered by scientists, developing countries and protesters – and they have been systematically vetoed by the governments of North America and Europe.

It's worth recounting a few of the ideas that were summarily dismissed – because when the world finally resolves to find a real solution, we will have to revive them.

Discarded Idea One: The International Environmental Court. Any cuts that leaders claim they would like as a result of Copenhagen will be purely voluntary. If a government decides not to follow them, nothing will happen, except a mild blush, and disastrous warming. Canada signed up to cut its emissions at Kyoto, and then increased them by 26 per cent – and there were no consequences. Copenhagen could unleash a hundred Canadas.

The brave, articulate Bolivian delegates – who have seen their glaciers melt at a terrifying pace – objected. They said if countries are serious about reducing emissions, their cuts need to be policed by an International Environmental Court that has the power to punish people. This is hardly impractical. When our leaders and their corporate lobbies really care about an issue – say, on trade – they pool their sovereignty this way in a second. The World Trade Organisation fines and sanctions nations severely if (say) they don't follow strict copyright laws. Is a safe climate less important than a trademark?

Discarded Idea Two: Leave the fossil fuels in the ground. At meetings here, an extraordinary piece of hypocrisy has been pointed out by the new international chair of Friends of the Earth, Nnimmo Bassey, and the environmental writer George Monbiot. The governments of the world say they want drastically to cut their use of fossil fuels, yet at the same time they are enthusiastically digging up any fossil fuels they can find, and hunting for more. They are holding a fire extinguisher in one hand and a flame-thrower in the other.

Only one of these instincts can prevail. A study published earlier this year in the journal Nature showed that we can use only – at an absolute maximum – 60 per cent of all the oil, coal and gas we have already discovered if we are going to stay the right side of catastrophic runaway warming. So the first step in any rational climate deal would be an immediate moratorium on searching for more fossil fuels, and fair plans for how to decide which of the existing stock we will leave unused. As Bassey put it: "Keep the coal in the hole. Keep the oil in the soil. Keep the tar sand in the land." This option wasn't even discussed by our leaders.

Discarded Idea Three: Climate debt. The rich world has been responsible for 70 per cent of the warming gases in the atmosphere – yet 70 per cent of the effects are being felt in the developing world. Holland can build vast dykes to prevent its land flooding; Bangladesh can only drown. There is a cruel inverse relationship between cause and effect: the polluter doesn't pay.

So we have racked up a climate debt. We broke it; they paid. At this summit, for the first time, the poor countries rose in disgust. Their chief negotiator pointed out that the compensation offered "won't even pay for the coffins". The cliché that environmentalism is a rich person's ideology just gasped its final CO2-rich breath. As Naomi Klein put it: "At this summit, the pole of environmentalism has moved south."

When we are dividing up who has the right to emit the few remaining warming gases that the atmosphere can absorb, we need to realise that we are badly overdrawn. We have used up our share of warming gases, and then some. Yet the US and EU have dismissed the idea of climate debt out of hand. How can we get a lasting deal that every country agrees to if we ignore this basic principle of justice? Why should the poorest restrain themselves when the rich refuse to?

A deal based on these real ideas would actually cool the atmosphere. The alternatives championed at Copenhagen by the rich world – carbon offsetting, carbon trading, carbon capture – won't. They are a global placebo. The critics who say the real solutions are "unrealistic" don't seem to realise that their alternative is more implausible still: civilisation continuing merrily on a planet whose natural processes are rapidly breaking down.

Throughout the negotiations here, the world's low-lying island states have clung to the real ideas as a life raft, because they are the only way to save their countries from a swelling sea. It has been extraordinary to watch their representatives – quiet, sombre people with sad eyes – as they were forced to plead for their own existence. They tried persuasion and hard science and lyrical hymns of love for their lands, and all were ignored.

These discarded ideas – and dozens more like them – show once again that man-made global warming can be stopped. The intellectual blueprints exist just as surely as the technological blueprints. There would be sacrifices, yes – but they are considerably less than the sacrifices made by our grandparents in their greatest fight.

We will have to pay higher taxes and fly less to make the leap to a renewably powered world – but we will still be able to live an abundant life where we are warm and free and well fed. The only real losers will be the fossil fuel corporations and the petro-dictatorships.

But our politicians have not chosen this sane path. No: they have chosen inertia and low taxes and oil money today over survival tomorrow. The true face of our current system – and of Copenhagen – can be seen in the life-saving ideas it has so casually tossed into the bin.

'You can watch Johann explaining some of the appalling loopholes being smuggled into the Copenhagen treaty here

j.hari@independent.co.uk

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Tame the Beast
[info]bamberpanda wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:50 am (UTC)
Copenhagen; a kick in the teeth for hope. The Beast will not heed reason. It will not reform or be reformed. Only revolution can tame it.
It's hardly even political; we adapt to changing environment & circumstances, or we go extinct: simple.
Re: Tame the Beast
[info]taost wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:54 am (UTC)
Adaptation, extinction, or revolution? I say the latter...
Re: Tame the Beast - [info]taost - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Tame the Beast - [info]yosemitejoe - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:35 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Tame the Beast - [info]up_till_late - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Tame the Beast - [info]ripsnorter757 - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 04:27 pm (UTC) Expand
OUR FAULT - [info]demofriendly - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:05 am (UTC) Expand
Truth
[info]heidi_stevenson wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:31 am (UTC)
Thank you.
Copenhagen Flop
[info]margaret222 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 02:08 am (UTC)
This is the high water mark for AGW proponents.

The "settled science" is about to become seriously unsettled.

There are four separate enquiries into "climategate", and the Russians have just alleged that their climate data has been seriously cherrypicked by CRU.

Furthermore, the CLOUD experiment at CERN is just getting under way. If the results from this are positive, it will invalidate every computer climate model in existence for having ignored a major physical effect.
Re: Copenhagen Flop
[info]icf01 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 03:28 am (UTC)
All true, but don't bother to mention it here, you'll just get a tirade of poisonous insults. The 'science' of AGW is unravelling fast but the inhabitants of Planet Indy have their fingers firmly in their ears.
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]richardcarter - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]yosemitejoe - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]raybeds - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]richardcarter - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]raybeds - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]cylusys - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 06:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Copenhagen Flop - [info]raybeds - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 07:50 pm (UTC) Expand
But it isn't...
[info]thomasgoodey wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 05:33 am (UTC)
"The rich world has been responsible for 70 per cent of the warming gases in the atmosphere – yet 70 per cent of the effects are being felt in the developing world." But they are not. The sea level is not rising significantly. The world is not warming significantly. It's all BS. And I would point out that the currently rich world has historically emitted all those gases, while putting forth efforts to build modern civilization, which the developing world did not bother to do, primarily through laziness.
Re: But it isn't...
[info]thesociologist wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC)
"And I would point out that the currently rich world has historically emitted all those gases, while putting forth efforts to build modern civilization, which the developing world did not bother to do, primarily through laziness"

This is truly one of the most ignorant and offensive things I have ever read in my life. Please crawl back to the daily mail.
Re: But it isn't... - [info]summermir - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 04:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: But it isn't... - [info]ourmaninberlin - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 07:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: But it isn't... - [info]jl3793 - Sunday, 20 December 2009 at 10:56 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]gorio123 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 06:19 am (UTC)
Johann, you eedjit! When will eedjits like you understand that the minscule have no effect on the greatness of Mother Earth and the fu**ing Soalr system? the sun has depleted in recent years and volcanic activity has increased. But, more importantly, due to these effects the Earths Core under gravitational pull from both the Moon and the Sun is no longer centered in the earth's core. it is bulging toward the edges of the mantle and eventually , we will all be blown to smithereens because there will be nothing left once the earth has lost its equilibrium and vascillates to the end of days... Be thankful, you will not live to see this occur. but your ass will be floating in space once she blows her wad. Just like the reast of us........
Hahahaha
[info]zappazappa wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:18 pm (UTC)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaah
let's
[info]panic2009 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 06:19 am (UTC)
ban volcanoes.

hari, you are a complete joke. do some research, man.
Re: let's
[info]yosemitejoe wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:40 am (UTC)
Oh yeah, the old "volcanos emit most of the CO_2" delusion? Debunked in the first 5 minutes after you hear it.
Re: Copenhagen Flop
[info]david_fta wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 06:43 am (UTC)
I'm delighted and reassured by margaret222's news that the science of global warming is about to be refuted.

That means that the entire edifice of 19th and 20th century thermal physics, from Joseph Fourier and George Tyndall, Svante Arrhenius and Ludwig Boltzmann onwards, that the entire edifice of all technological progress to date, is about to be knocked over.

What this means, oh dear margaret222, that at leaswt one of the following four statements.
1. Earth is heated by sunlight (300-8000 nm), and stays the same temperature by giving off earthlight (3000-50000 nm).
2. CO2 doesn't stop sunlight getting in.
3. CO2 does stop earthlight getting out.
4. The more CO2 the less earthlight gets out.

Tell us, margaret222, o dear enlightened one, which of these four statements is not correct.

You and me, babe, let's move to Bangladesh, or Alaska, and see who's right.

thomasgoodey, mate, you're welcome to join us.
Re: Copenhagen Flop
[info]summermir wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 05:04 pm (UTC)
I think you will find, my sarcastic friend, that the sham-science that sits behind the 'religion' of man made global warming is being examined by scientists and exposed for the fraud it is. The so called concensus is nothing of the kind. The people promoting the 'science', have got their fingers in all sorts pies with very vested interests. You and people like richardcarter, have been taken for a ride by quacks, and you still do not see it !!!
[info]abushams wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 07:47 am (UTC)
Obama did exactly what he was paid for , create the impression that the "powers that are " have some willingness to end "The age of Stupid "all smoke of Mirrors ..
Now his senate will do what special interests paid them for : Shoot anything reached in Copenhagen , no matter how small, down...
Well said
[info]kat_ali_oop wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 08:21 am (UTC)
Excellent article.
colder and colder
[info]tph197 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 08:51 am (UTC)
Its getting colder and colder. Time to laugh at the loonies.
Re: COPENHAGEN FLOP
[info]margaret222 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 09:27 am (UTC)
david_fta wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 06:43 am (UTC)
"I'm delighted and reassured by margaret222's news that the science of global warming is about to be refuted.

What this means, oh dear margaret222, that at least one of the following four statements.
1. Earth is heated by sunlight (300-8000 nm), and stays the same temperature by giving off earthlight (3000-50000 nm).
2. CO2 doesn't stop sunlight getting in.
3. CO2 does stop earthlight getting out.
4. The more CO2 the less earthlight gets out.

Tell us, margaret222, o dear enlightened one, which of these four statements is not correct."

1. More or less correct

2. Correct

3. Incorrect

4. Grossly oversimplified. CO2 absorption of radiation in its absorption bands declines logarithmically. From memory, the first 20ppm absorbs more than 50% of the total. We are now in the area of tiny changes for any increase. Think dark screens being placed over a window, where the first absorbs say 50% of light, the second half the remaining 50% , the third half the remaining 25%, and so on.

Anyhow, given a choice between 2 degrees of warming and two degrees of cooling, I know which one I would choose every time. The Mediaeval Warm Period was great for humanity, the Little Ice Age was'nt.
Re: COPENHAGEN FLOP - [info]up_till_late - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: COPENHAGEN FLOP - [info]david_fta - Monday, 21 December 2009 at 08:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: colder and colder - [info]richardcarter - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: colder and colder - [info]raybeds - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 02:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Crystal balls and chicken entrails in science
[info]econyonium wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 08:59 am (UTC)
Destroying our society today will leave nothing for the future.

Do you realise Mr Hari, we are back in ancient times when the High Priests who advised Caesar sacrificed animals and read their entrails to divine the future? Today of course the High Priests use computers, but still hide behind their baffling rites and rituals and interpretations of the Natural World.

If "science" could predict the climate, a dynamic, multi-elemental, chaotic system, and its efect on Nature, another multi-elemental, dynamic, chaotic system, with any degree of certainty, it could also predict winning lottery numbers. It cannot do the latter for exactly the same reasons it cannot do the former.

What is so tragic about this is "leaders" and journalists seem totally taken in by it all, whereas the People see it for what it is. Even Caesar knew it was all a set up.

Time to deal with real problems in the present than plotting to slay imagined dragons in a far off, unknown realm.

Read my lips. There is NO scientific evidence that a single trace gas has taken control of the climate.

Stop, please, presenting evidence of warming as evidence of cause. You just look silly.
Copenhagen
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC)
Now this expensive nonsense is over perhaps our politicians (even this current moronic lot of self-servers) would convene a world conference on what really matters - world (over) population. There IS something they could do about this which they never could on so called 'climate change.'
World population when I was born in 1938 2 billion - now in 2009 - 6.7 billion and rising and I'm not even dead yet.
Global Warming Myth
[info]ian_essex wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 09:44 am (UTC)
One word, Bunkum! 'Climate Change' has been going on since the beginning of time so forget that word. 'Global Warming' is not proven to be principally attributable to carbon dioxide in the first place, it is not the only 'greenhouse gas' and attributable to human activity in the second place, furthermore is it really detrimental to World populations in the third place. Droughts in Africa are due to many complex reasons, storms in the Atlantic the same, China had the coldest winter for many years last year, the USA the same! The latter effects cannot be attributed to 'Global Warming'.

In a word Global Warming hysteria is a diversionary tactic on the part of unscrupulous politicians, funding hungry scientists and very unscrupulous financiers like Gore who is making billions out of carbon credit trading. The sensation seeking media are complicit in this fraud as they love controversy, sensationalism and scare stories. In the case of the deluded, social engineering Left and all other assorted Trots and Marxists, they will automatically gravitate to any 'issue' which tends to demonstate the evil of capitalism, they would have us all back in the stone age, by the way at the end oif the stone age 12,000 years ago the last ice age came to an end! Carbon Footprint - rubbish!
Truths that climate scientists must not ignore....
[info]rhysjaggar wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:19 am (UTC)
1. If you want trillions spent on the back of your research, you open it up to the most critical validation by allcomers possible. You don't obfuscate FOIA requests, nor do you subvert the peer review publication procedure.
2. You use PRIMARY DATA, not 'homogenised' data.
3. You minimise the urban heat island effect by only using rural stations or at the very least mirroring the ratio of urban to rural landmass in the temperature station dataset.
4. You present the science honestly, including oceanic modulations, explaining yo-yo effects etc and you don't scaremonger incessantly.
5. You engage pragmatically with current energy suppliers to negotiate a phased change-over.
6. You don't engage in a 'world communism must beat world capitalism' political diatribe.
7. You ensure that money pledged is real money spent on real projects benefitting real people.
8. You don't take orders from Robert Mugabe.
9. You spend the next 30 years continuing to collect data professionally whilst initiating the green economy in a pragmatic, stepwise manner.
10. You come up with a global climate model which integrates solar inputs, lunar oscillations, oceanic modulations, earth tilt and earth geomagnetism as well as greenhouse gases.
11. You ensure that you do not modify data to fit models, you modify models to fit data.

In short, you engage like an adult. To fellow adults.

Socialists unfortunately believe they are a superior species who must keep the rest under control.

You are not. You are like everyone else. Power hungry, ruthless and manipulative.

Never forget that.
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore....
[info]ourmaninberlin wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:27 am (UTC)
That's the shame rhys, if I change your last few lines it pretty much sums up the whole 'debate'.
Conservatives unfortunately think they are smarter than everyone else. They will do anything to ensure that their current privileged position is not threatened.
They are scared that everyone is like them. Selfish, arrogant, ruthless and paranoid.
Never forget that.
Other than that I pretty much agree with the points listed. We need more independent science. Even if it turns out there is little we can do I'd rather know for sure. What a lot of people seem to forget is that this is the most complex scientific issue we have ever tried to get a grip on and no one set of data is going to either prove or disprove the climate model. Not until we've figured out how all the factors influence each other can we say we've solved it, if that day ever comes.
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore.... - [info]summermir - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 05:20 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore.... - [info]ourmaninberlin - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 07:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore.... - [info]celticwelshman - Sunday, 20 December 2009 at 04:15 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore.... - [info]dinsylwy - Sunday, 20 December 2009 at 06:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Truths that climate scientists must not ignore.... - [info]celticwelshman - Sunday, 20 December 2009 at 08:33 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]john_levett wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:06 am (UTC)
"Discarded Idea Two: Leave the fossil fuels in the ground"

As ideas go, that's right up there with square wheels. At a stroke, destroy western economies (where will the 'brave, articulate' Bolivians get their handouts then?), shut down hospitals, condemn the elderly who created our wealth and prosperity to a precipitate, freezing death, litter the country with useless planes, trains buses and cars (and G-Whiz's), shut down TV, radio, the internet and printing presses and completely destroy any means of creating the technology to realise alternative energy sources.

Of course we're still digging it up! If you feel so strongly about it, do your bit and reduce demand. Cut off your electricity and gas supplies, don't use technology at all and for pity's sake, stop wasting energy delivering this sort of drivel.
In the meantime, outside ...
[info]edjzet wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:29 am (UTC)
Johan, look out of your window.

You may notice that the snow is early this year.

Re: In the meantime, outside ...
[info]borrowed_din wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:51 am (UTC)
Now who's cherry-picking data?
Re: In the meantime, outside ... - [info]zappazappa - Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 10:22 pm (UTC) Expand
50 Days
[info]bignose1985 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:32 am (UTC)
According to Broonie we had "fifty days to save the world" so now that there has been no deal at Copenhagen I guess we're all doomed.
It is hyperbole like Broonie's "fifty days" statement that disconnect voters from politicians (although I sometimes think that this is exactly what politicians want so as they can act without any democratic accountability).

The ruling classes have always tried to rule using fear. In this so-called post-Christian era it is now the politicians who threaten us with a fire and brimstone ending if we don't mend our ways.

Thomas Jefferson once said "When the people fear the Government there is tyranny. When the Government fear the people there is liberty" and truer words have seldom been spoken.

p.s. does anyone remember the very first Earth Day? Weren't we told that we faced global destruction due to a coming Ice Age?
Re: 50 Days
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:30 pm (UTC)
I think he thought that B'liars phrase "48 hours to save the world" (or some such claptrap re: Iraq) was such a goodie, the nerk thought he would copy. Something gruesomely typical about that.

OMG......these dreadful people in charge of us now worldwide....I am very very sorry to say the world needs another war.
Karl Marx was right and I am certainly no communist. "When you can't sell your goods- you give them away- when you can no longer give them away you have a war."
Re: 50 Days - [info]bignose1985 - Monday, 21 December 2009 at 10:23 am (UTC) Expand
Carbon foot print of War?
[info]sycoohm wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:41 am (UTC)
Whats the carbon foot print of the War in Afghanistan? Lets stop that, save the money and use it for something useful like reducing CO2. Win win situation.
Locusts
[info]00simian wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 11:47 am (UTC)
I fear we are like a plague of locusts; procreating and ravaging all the natural resources available until there will be nothing left. We just can't stop ourselves.

Is it not a law of nature that a species will expand and 'fill' its environment, even if, through lack of predators, it eventually to leads to population collapse and all that that entails. Do we as a collective have free will or will we just follow nature's course?
Re: Locusts
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:49 pm (UTC)
Absolutely- see my post 12.30pm about another proper war.
The true face of our current system
[info]gonzologist wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:05 pm (UTC)
"The true face of our current system – and of Copenhagen – can be seen in the life-saving ideas it has so casually tossed into the bin"

In a nutshell.

Excellent work Johann
THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT A MORIBUND MESS
[info]e_paul_imhof wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC)
What else is new? Adolf Hitler's slogan VOLK OHNE RAUM killed millionsa of people swiftly. Pax Americana and half a century of prosperity unfortunately fostered VOLK OHNE TRAUM. Wealthy nations incapable of dreaming about a sane and safe future are doomed. Twittering on a volcano componuds rather than resolves the ecological dilemma. Only the poorest nations reproduce fast enough to pick up the pieces after global threats deadlier than the holocaust decimates a generation ignoring ominous handwriting on the wall.
A simple question
[info]raybeds wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:02 pm (UTC)
Leave all the source of hydrocarbons in the ground. OK then where will you get your toothbrush from when the plastic ones run out? Will you be able to make one yourself, say of wood and bristle?

Get real there is no way this will happen.
[info]rozr wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:11 pm (UTC)
Our politicians lie to us and are caught out. They claim outrageous expenses and when caught out, many of they are going to court to try to avoid paying back. They are only it seems to me interested in getting a cushy job that allows them to satisfy some urge to be either little Hitlers or force their trendy or authoritarian ideas on us. Our schools and the NHS and police are all in crisis. Vast numbers of our population are on benefits - some really are trying to find work, but where is it? Who created the gigantic black hole in our country's finances? Not just the bankers but also our saintly PM who is currently spending our money and hiring private aircraft and along with umpteen thousands of others creating I understand a carbon footprint equal to that of Malawi.

And these politicians expect us to believe anything they say?

In future, send the scientists only, say 100 experts, that's enough. Let them decide what's needed. Then send a simple email to each national leader telling them what's needed. And let's ensure the science is right - not controversial, not rocky, not hysterical, but backed up by proper proofs, so the so-called deniers must be included in this.

I'm not sure if the majority opinion is right or wrong although I expect it's a bit of both, but no way will I have sanctimonious our unelected PM Gordon Brown and his type playing games with us and our taxes - and that's what it's all about at this conference. He's over there to avoid the chaos back home that he's helped to create, looking to be another "world leader" like Blair....... and passing out billions of our money as well. Time the amount offered suited exactly to the GDP of each country.
Strange comment
[info]jolrog wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 01:18 pm (UTC)
Mr Hari, which conference, exactly, did you watch? Was it the one at which China, the world's largest polluter, stood in the way that might have been made? The European nations have been relegated to the status of bystanders, with the US and China running the show and pursuing their national self interests, which override anyone else's environmentals concerns and stifle initiatives. Ms Merkel was barely able to conceal her disappointment at the obstructionism Europeans encountered.
The beach front house next
[info]dumbganda wrote:
Saturday, 19 December 2009 at 02:31 pm (UTC)


To Al Gore's has just gone up by another million.
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