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Johann Hari: Why should I respect these oppressive religions?

Whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents say they're victims of 'prejudice'

The right to criticise religion is being slowly doused in acid. Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism – giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds – are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion. A historic marker has just been passed, showing how far we have been shoved. The UN rapporteur who is supposed to be the global guardian of free speech has had his job rewritten – to put him on the side of the religious censors.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights stated 60 years ago that "a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief is the highest aspiration of the common people". It was a Magna Carta for mankind – and loathed by every human rights abuser on earth. Today, the Chinese dictatorship calls it "Western", Robert Mugabe calls it "colonialist", and Dick Cheney calls it "outdated". The countries of the world have chronically failed to meet it – but the document has been held up by the United Nations as the ultimate standard against which to check ourselves. Until now.

Starting in 1999, a coalition of Islamist tyrants, led by Saudi Arabia, demanded the rules be rewritten. The demand for everyone to be able to think and speak freely failed to "respect" the "unique sensitivities" of the religious, they decided – so they issued an alternative Islamic Declaration of Human Rights. It insisted that you can only speak within "the limits set by the shariah [law]. It is not permitted to spread falsehood or disseminate that which involves encouraging abomination or forsaking the Islamic community".

In other words, you can say anything you like, as long as it precisely what the reactionary mullahs tell you to say. The declaration makes it clear there is no equality for women, gays, non-Muslims, or apostates. It has been backed by the Vatican and a bevy of Christian fundamentalists.

Incredibly, they are succeeding. The UN's Rapporteur on Human Rights has always been tasked with exposing and shaming those who prevent free speech – including the religious. But the Pakistani delegate recently demanded that his job description be changed so he can seek out and condemn "abuses of free expression" including "defamation of religions and prophets". The council agreed – so the job has been turned on its head. Instead of condemning the people who wanted to murder Salman Rushdie, they will be condemning Salman Rushdie himself.

Anything which can be deemed "religious" is no longer allowed to be a subject of discussion at the UN – and almost everything is deemed religious. Roy Brown of the International Humanist and Ethical Union has tried to raise topics like the stoning of women accused of adultery or child marriage. The Egyptian delegate stood up to announce discussion of shariah "will not happen" and "Islam will not be crucified in this council" – and Brown was ordered to be silent. Of course, the first victims of locking down free speech about Islam with the imprimatur of the UN are ordinary Muslims.

Here is a random smattering of events that have taken place in the past week in countries that demanded this change. In Nigeria, divorced women are routinely thrown out of their homes and left destitute, unable to see their children, so a large group of them wanted to stage a protest – but the Shariah police declared it was "un-Islamic" and the marchers would be beaten and whipped. In Saudi Arabia, the country's most senior government-approved cleric said it was perfectly acceptable for old men to marry 10-year-old girls, and those who disagree should be silenced. In Egypt, a 27-year-old Muslim blogger Abdel Rahman was seized, jailed and tortured for arguing for a reformed Islam that does not enforce shariah.

To the people who demand respect for Muslim culture, I ask: which Muslim culture? Those women's, those children's, this blogger's – or their oppressors'?

As the secular campaigner Austin Darcy puts it: "The ultimate aim of this effort is not to protect the feelings of Muslims, but to protect illiberal Islamic states from charges of human rights abuse, and to silence the voices of internal dissidents calling for more secular government and freedom."

Those of us who passionately support the UN should be the most outraged by this.

Underpinning these "reforms" is a notion seeping even into democratic societies – that atheism and doubt are akin to racism. Today, whenever a religious belief is criticised, its adherents immediately claim they are the victims of "prejudice" – and their outrage is increasingly being backed by laws.

All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do. I don't respect the idea that a man was born of a virgin, walked on water and rose from the dead. I don't respect the idea that we should follow a "Prophet" who at the age of 53 had sex with a nine-year old girl, and ordered the murder of whole villages of Jews because they wouldn't follow him.

I don't respect the idea that the West Bank was handed to Jews by God and the Palestinians should be bombed or bullied into surrendering it. I don't respect the idea that we may have lived before as goats, and could live again as woodlice. This is not because of "prejudice" or "ignorance", but because there is no evidence for these claims. They belong to the childhood of our species, and will in time look as preposterous as believing in Zeus or Thor or Baal.

When you demand "respect", you are demanding we lie to you. I have too much real respect for you as a human being to engage in that charade.

But why are religious sensitivities so much more likely to provoke demands for censorship than, say, political sensitivities? The answer lies in the nature of faith. If my views are challenged I can, in the end, check them against reality. If you deregulate markets, will they collapse? If you increase carbon dioxide emissions, does the climate become destabilised? If my views are wrong, I can correct them; if they are right, I am soothed.

But when the religious are challenged, there is no evidence for them to consult. By definition, if you have faith, you are choosing to believe in the absence of evidence. Nobody has "faith" that fire hurts, or Australia exists; they know it, based on proof. But it is psychologically painful to be confronted with the fact that your core beliefs are based on thin air, or on the empty shells of revelation or contorted parodies of reason. It's easier to demand the source of the pesky doubt be silenced.

But a free society cannot be structured to soothe the hardcore faithful. It is based on a deal. You have an absolute right to voice your beliefs – but the price is that I too have a right to respond as I wish. Neither of us can set aside the rules and demand to be protected from offence.

Yet this idea – at the heart of the Universal Declaration – is being lost. To the right, it thwacks into apologists for religious censorship; to the left, it dissolves in multiculturalism. The hijacking of the UN Special Rapporteur by religious fanatics should jolt us into rescuing the simple, battered idea disintegrating in the middle: the equal, indivisible human right to speak freely.

An excellent blog that keeps you up to dates on secularist issues is Butterflies and Wheels, which you can read here.

If you want to get involved in fighting for secularism, join the National Secular Society here.

j.hari@independent.co.uk

More from Johann Hari

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Another excellent article
[info]ourmaninferney wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 12:29 am (UTC)
Once again Hari has hit the nail on the head in the fight against religious extremism.

Which means the nutters will probably be out in force over the next few hours. And each and very one of them will prove his point.
Re: Another excellent article
[info]thapasan wrote:
Monday, 16 February 2009 at 11:42 am (UTC)
Hope the purpose of the article is to reform religious institutions around the world not to deny/oppose them. Some belief system is better than nothing. It would add colours to our life - by rituals, traditions, value systems and a lifestyle. The same is the case with ethiest movements - they will fuel logical thinking to the religious philosophy (in an ideal world).

Such an ideal world existed in India, Kerala - where people were religious and logical. That is fast changing in this new world order of religious fundamentalism. Very sad.

I am observing the developments and shall put more comments, later.
Re: Another excellent article - [info]simon_gardner - Monday, 16 February 2009 at 12:49 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another excellent article - [info]beddingsquire - Wednesday, 18 February 2009 at 03:10 pm (UTC) Expand
6 out of 10, Johann! - [info]hectagon2 - Wednesday, 18 February 2009 at 07:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Great article
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 12:57 am (UTC)
Terrific article.
Re: Great article
[info]fakhry wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 05:41 pm (UTC)
no one can ignore the Holocaust but you can attack religious profit.should insrution from its origen not from example here or there..
Re: Great article - [info]johnmc09 - Monday, 2 February 2009 at 02:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Monday, 2 February 2009 at 08:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 05:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]simon_gardner - Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 05:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 07:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 06:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 07:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:40 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]ameenaman - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]lkdamo - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]jamesengland - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 01:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Great article - [info]fakhry - Tuesday, 10 February 2009 at 07:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Another athiestic callousness
[info]knessa wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 01:17 am (UTC)
It is very difficult for atheists to understand or respect religion and religious sentiments. Do you know why religion should be respected? Because it hurts when it isn't -plain and simple. It is a genuine hurt that affects the soul --if they can know what a soul is. So when Mr Hari in his pomposity cites a few examples of religious extremism --which may or may not have anything to do with the teachings of the religion itself --and condemns the entire religion, he genuinely hurts people --and if he enjoys that then let him look to his soul.
Re: Another athiestic callousness
[info]bretttgaskin wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:30 am (UTC)
Great article Johann.

Knessa - Your post displays the most obvious trait of religion - the ability to stick one's head firmly in the sand.

Religion is simply a tool for the annoited to control the religious population. It works OK with benevolence, unfortunately all we have is a bunch of voilent nutters on all sides.

Bretto
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]cresur - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 05:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]groveller - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 04:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 08:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]bulawayobob - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 04:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]spnfl - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]fdskhdfsk - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]knessa - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 07:18 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 06:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]ashstuff - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]knessa - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]pw201 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 10:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]knessa - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 07:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]pw201 - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 08:48 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]forwardplanning - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 10:30 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]joyced12 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 10:55 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]timmsywimmsy - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:16 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]dllucien - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]knessa - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 07:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]joyced12 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 03:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]rainsong23 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 06:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]matunos - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]blathra - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 10:27 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]rainsong23 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:00 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]parlourtrick - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]mattashby1974 - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]jjdoole - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 12:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]caribscape - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 05:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]rainsong23 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 06:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]sentinel74 - Sunday, 1 February 2009 at 01:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]powertrustfast - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 02:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]asrop - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 01:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]jbrown01 - Tuesday, 17 February 2009 at 12:27 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Another athiestic callousness - [info]jhaybarker - Tuesday, 17 February 2009 at 04:11 am (UTC) Expand
[info]nullius123 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 01:20 am (UTC)
"All people deserve respect, but not all ideas do."

Some ideas are more respectable, more useful, more *valuable*, than many people's beliefs. The idea of intellectual liberty is one of them.
The Shallow Thinking of Athiests
[info]knessa wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 07:20 pm (UTC)
When will you athiests admit that there are people who use religion to advance political agendas? Religion for them is a tool. Do you think even for one moment that political agendas will change if you take away the tool? While you carelessly omit the great social works---past and present-- that have been undertaken in the name of religion --and refuse to credit religion for it --you reveal yourselves, like your great hero Mr Hari there, nothing more that then your blinkered prejudice.

Thank you --I infinitely prefer my religion, to your ill-mannered, uncultured and uncouthness that have no respect for people's beliefs
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]nullius123 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 07:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]knessa - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]nullius123 - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 12:36 am (UTC) Expand
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 08:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]powertrustfast - Wednesday, 11 February 2009 at 02:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Religion does advance political agends - [info]arthur_ide - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 01:53 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: The Shallow Thinking of Athiests - [info]jbrown01 - Tuesday, 17 February 2009 at 12:37 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]knessa - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: No subject - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 08:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Free Speech and its potential targets
[info]in_honour_of wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:14 am (UTC)
So free speech to attack crazy, evil religious monsters currently risking life and limb to help Gazans but apply it to say hmm homosexuality which is backed up by science just as loose as most religions and your a bigot. Oh sorry i forgot animals do it just like eating there young. Anyway lets hear it for free speech and those homophobic rappers, racist BNP councillors, and good ol fashioned sexists because every offensive xenophobic word they spit is a blow for freedom of speech just like this article. The trick is differing between freedom of speech and humanity and respect that should stop people like yourself referring to my beliefs as belonging "to the childhood of our species" just as it should stop people like Eminem referring to your private life as the acts of societies sexual deviants. But the irony of a homosexual using free speech as a way of insulting the personal inclination of billions of people is likely to be lost on the radical left.
Oh and why do indie writers always start a logical argument about the radical religious blocking censure and then quickly apply the understanding of their behaviour to moderates such as myself who have not so much raised a hand to a woman let alone stoned one.


"Once again Hari has hit the nail on the head in the fight against religious extremism.

Which means the nutters will probably be out in force over the next few hours. And each and very one of them will prove his point." Ourmaninferney

The colossal arrogance of this statement, i'll remember to refer to every person who makes reference to love, fate or any kind off providence as a nutter. Hubris, hypocrisy I just dont know any more.
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets
[info]fdskhdfsk wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 07:02 am (UTC)
Nonbelievers have the right to subject religion to hateful and unfair criticism.

Conservatives have the right to subject homosexuality to hateful and unfair criticism.

This is not hard to understand.
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]freeethinker - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 10:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 06:49 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]ameenaman - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 10:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]mary_clifford - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]tim_hinchliffe - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 10:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]in_honour_of - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech and its potential targets - [info]ourmaninferney - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 05:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Religion or its Subjects
[info]candice1 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:18 am (UTC)
Dude! All that writing. There is no religion that is repressive. Have you ever read the Bible? the Koran? Nothing repressive about these religions. How about blaming sects of these religions. You spent maximum time on Islam. Did you forget ihe inquisisions? And remember that the Bible states that a woman should be stoned to death if caught in adultery. Lay off the religions and be fearless and go after the extremists.
Re: Religion or its Subjects
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:20 am (UTC)
Extremists have a bigger influence in Islamic areas. It's been a recurring problem in many parts of the world lately.
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]obamaman - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:44 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]stevie895 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]infidel99 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:45 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]mj0911 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]romanysue - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 03:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]sickofstupidity - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 04:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]matunos - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 12:52 am (UTC) Expand
Why should we cower before ILLOGICALITY - [info]dostoyevsky01 - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 02:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Religion or its Subjects - [info]pakguy - Monday, 16 February 2009 at 07:35 am (UTC) Expand
Why should I respect religion
[info]chrismac1 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 03:30 am (UTC)
Great article Johann. I always get angry when I hear religious people say that I should respect their crazy beliefs and that I shouldnt judge religions by the views and actions of the extremists of their particular religions. If extremists can point to passages within their religious text of choice that are clearly uncivilised, contradictory and insane then that is exactly why religion should be consigned to the dustbin of history. If it says in the bible or quoran that adulterers and homosexuals should be stoned to death then if you are a muslim or a christian then that is what you must believe or accept that believing in bronze age nonsense whether good or bad is extreme. Mainstream Christianity now seems less extreme because secular values such as democracy, human rights, equality and tolerance has forced them gradually since the enlightenment to be so not because they wanted to themselves. When religion fights back and wins against these values you get fascism as we did in the 20s, 30s and 40s in europe, 60s, 70s and 80s in south america and as we have today in much of the muslim world in Asia and Africa. Secular values are a threat to the powers that be anywhere religion is in power and nobody can deny that in the absence of secularism in any society there is only religious fascism . Chrismac
Ignorance about religion
[info]khobar wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:15 am (UTC)
Mr Hari may be a good writer but his ignorance about Islam is obvious. There are extremists who must be condemned. Quran is a divine book and guides Muslims. Sulman Rushdie is a heretic who keeps changing his religion.
Re: Ignorance about religion
[info]fdskhdfsk wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 07:53 am (UTC)
You have the right to criticize "extremists" and "heretic[s]".

I have the right to criticize the Qur'an as a foolish book.

Neither one of us has the right to make death threats.
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]capt_j_kirk - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:24 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]matunos - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]sickofstupidity - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 04:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]parlourtrick - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]rainsong23 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:22 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]simon_gardner - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]arthur_ide - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 02:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]drillmash - Sunday, 22 February 2009 at 01:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]arthur_ide - Sunday, 22 February 2009 at 01:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]drillmash - Sunday, 22 February 2009 at 03:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Ignorance about religion - [info]arthur_ide - Sunday, 22 February 2009 at 04:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Ignorance and reality--the myth of religion - [info]arthur_ide - Sunday, 22 February 2009 at 01:53 am (UTC) Expand
Legal Ways
[info]mackname wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:18 am (UTC)

you are right. we need however, to prevent this miscarriage of justice by law.

my suggestion is that whoever who comes with the idea of religious rights has to prove the existense of their supreme leader(s): god or gods, and why its rules are necessary to be applied to all.

if they can prove it then they have the right of beeing heard, and if not, then they have no legal rights to be accepted or be influential to be overheard or accepted to any local or general decision-making.

The bottom line is that an insane person(s) has/have no legal rights to sign or contributed in any type of contracts.
Well, obviously!
[info]flibbly wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:27 am (UTC)
No-one in their right mind could possible disagree with a word you say Johann. Unfortunately of course there are multitudes of people out there whose mind's are hampered by a serious infection of superstitious dogma. As predicted by ourmaninferney, and as already demonstrated, they will no doubt feel the need to prove that very point on this thread.
Re: Well, obviously!
[info]notacrook_uk wrote:
Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 01:15 pm (UTC)
Exactly how old was Aisha when she consumated her marriage with Mohammad?
[info]stopzionists wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:35 am (UTC)
Ridiculous article - at least have the balls to actually read up on the bizarre quotations you profer in your writing Johann. Referring to the prophet as a man who had sex with a nine year old is not only hugely offensive to the Muslims amongst us, but also absolutely incorrect.
You need to start reading more objectively and rigorously, rather than jumping on the propaganda bandwagon...
Daft writing by a daft man.
[info]fdskhdfsk wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:54 am (UTC)
"[A]bsolutely incorrect"? I acknowledge that there is some controversy over this point. However, the claim that Aisha was nine when the marriage was consummated can be found in Sahih al-Bukhari, which is a very well-trusted and authoritative source within Islam. It hardly deserves the name "propaganda".
Re: Well, obviously! - [info]justeju - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 07:38 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Well, obviously! - [info]joyced12 - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 03:47 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Well, obviously! - [info]fdskhdfsk - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 06:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Well, obviously! - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 09:21 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]exec_ceo - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:22 am (UTC) Expand
Child abuse. - [info]richardep - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 01:53 pm (UTC) Expand
stopzionists > stopcrazymullahs - [info]harimyhero - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 02:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Glad you're offended - [info]parlourtrick - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Reality check - [info]mahoneko - Friday, 30 January 2009 at 11:38 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]simon_gardner - Saturday, 31 January 2009 at 12:29 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]saraal65 - Saturday, 14 February 2009 at 09:16 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]jbrown01 - Tuesday, 17 February 2009 at 12:43 am (UTC) Expand
Ignorance about religion
[info]wadan wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 06:59 am (UTC)
Hi Hari, by reading this article, it's obvious that you have become an extrimist of your own ideas...you just can't blame religion for being missinterpreted by someone or some people.....we just small creatures with full of weakness.
Re: Ignorance about religion
[info]joyced12 wrote:
Friday, 30 January 2009 at 03:17 pm (UTC)
wadan, you can. Religions are invented by small creatures full of weaknesses. This much is obvious from a dispassionate reading of their texts.

What is glorious is that most of us small creatures who subscribe to those texts choose, in a very human way, to ignore or reinterpret most of the nasty bits. Otherwise they'd still be dashing babies' heads and smiting the necks of unbelievers. They don't. It is the books that are bad, the people who are good. Don't try to pretend it's the other way round.
"Opressive religions"
[info]victormc wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 07:35 am (UTC)
There is only one - Islam. It's not 'just a religion' it's a way of living it brooks no interference nor criticism and is run and controlled by raving nutters. There are no moderates it's a myth. We here in Britain and the rest of Europe have pandered to these people far far too long and are now reaping the rewards for our stupidity and believe me when I say they are laughing at us with their 3.6 birthrate compared with ours of 1.6. The so called 'Liberal classes' (a euphemism for stupid naive little twerps) got us into this mess now let them get us out without a war. I doubt it, don't you? The only country in the world who have got the message is Israel certainly not 'Europe'.
Re: "Opressive religions"
[info]lovnpeace wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC)
i think you have issues and problems and need to see a specialist regarding all that hate that you have locked inside you which is obiously directed towards the non English and non Christian

I belive in respect towards another regardless of their faith, language or background. if you dont like the religion Islam, Christianity etc then i guess you are in for hard time as they are the most followed practices

I also can't understand your problem with birthrate are you able? If so maybe you like a small family and some like larger families

I am born and bred in this country, actually a Yorkshire man, im a practicing Muslim and love and respect people forom other backgrounds and religions.

I think you have you opinion on this topic which should be respected but you should not offfend someone just as they should be respected and their opinions
Re: "Opressive religions" - [info]carla60 - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: "Opressive religions" - [info]mj0911 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:26 am (UTC) Expand
Re: "Opressive religions" - [info]jacqueline_bo13 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 12:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: "Opressive religions" - [info]ziva10 - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 01:07 am (UTC) Expand
Re: "Opressive religions" - [info]jrlmail - Sunday, 8 February 2009 at 06:15 am (UTC) Expand
Re: &quot;Opressive religions&quot; - [info]victormc - Sunday, 8 February 2009 at 07:17 am (UTC) Expand
As a liberal atheist
[info]steve_wilds wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:00 am (UTC)
As a liberal atheist I don't have a problem with people's own religious beliefs, except where they infringe upon other, non-believing people's lives and that is down to individual, human interpretation and should be challenged. And by non-believing people I mean people who follow different religions.

Ultimately, all religions, and humanism for that matter, seek to achieve the same thing: to provide a way for very different people to identify with the world and with each other. And people are different, which means the world they percieve is different to that of others and that's the thing that we very often forget. To some logic and reason is the only way, to others there is an invisible, spiritual element that they can no more deny than athiests can deny the colour blue.


Excellent
[info]nataliesmillie wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:12 am (UTC)
Another fantastic, well balanced article. Hari doesn't attack religion, or atheism - and even if he did, it's his right to. You don't have to listen to him. And isn't that the point of the article?
Re: Excellent
[info]fakhry wrote:
Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 04:38 pm (UTC)
can he question the Holocaust in the same way? without been in trouble ?
Re: Excellent - [info]pw201 - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 12:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Excellent - [info]fakhry - Friday, 13 February 2009 at 11:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Excellent - [info]sp7986 - Sunday, 1 March 2009 at 10:41 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Excellent - [info]fakhry - Sunday, 1 March 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC) Expand
superb piece
[info]hongkersdon wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:27 am (UTC)
Knessa,

Just how insecure about your religion are you? Many Muslims do not like criticism of their faith because fundamentally they feel deeply insecure about it. Just because you feel something strongly doesn't make you right.

This is a very well-worded piece and hits the nail on the head. It is vital that the West wakes up to the creeping dangers of a loss of freedom of expression.
Freedom of speech includes the right to offend. If Muslims are so sure they are right, why all the fuss?

And Candice1, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Hari isn't defending the Bible, it's just at the moment Islam is a bigger threat than conservative Christianity. Muslim nations are setting the agenda. Have you read the Koran? It talks of hellfire on every other page!

A breeze cannot uproot a well rooted oak.
[info]gr8r_g8r wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:33 am (UTC)
It looks to me as if everyone writing here has the situation skewed. I have no obligation to respect another person's ideas and neither do you. We are obliged, however - by natures laws - to respect his/her right to hold and express those ideas. I expect no less in return. If, perchance, my expressing the tenants of my beliefs draws a gratuitous attack, so be it! A belief system that is so weak as to be threatened or insulted by criticism or contentious arguments, is fatally flawed and almost certainly indefensible. On the other hand. however trite, superstitious or shallow my faith may be, if it is truly and deeply believed, neither you nor your disdain can cause me to waiver by attacking it.

As with sexual orientation, those who are unsure of their theology invariably wax defensive and become angry in the face of adverse questions.
FAITH IS NOT THE SAME AS RELIGION
[info]lustyglaze wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 08:39 am (UTC)
We all have faith in something - that our mother loves us, perhaps. It does not bear scientific scrutiny, and yet we know, believe, it is true. The science we believe today may, in future, prove to be untrue - a flat world seemed logical at the time, given the extent of man's knowledge. But human beings, for their own warped reasons, sometimes take advantage of those with faith in order to manipulate and control They create laws and rules and punishments and call them instruments of faith - they are not. Faith is essential if a society is to live through disasters and aspire to better things, and the genuine faithful must not be crushed by religious extremists. I would go further and say that true faith has nothing to fear from free speech.
Who's daft now?
[info]hongkersdon wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:08 am (UTC)
stopzionists, I'm not really sure where you're coming from. Hari doesn't actually quote from the Koran at all, merely makes reference. And why is it daft to write seriously about a serious subject? Hari makes a very strong case backed up by facts. Of course, it's your right to ignore the facts but it's an odd choice to do so.
the silent generation
[info]agnen wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:12 am (UTC)
I can't believe this is happening again. I grew up in the Soviet Union where freedom of speech was absent. We were not allowed to speak about certain subjects - the danger of not complying was very real. As a child I knew that, so I got used to leave my thinking to myself - even one's best friends could not be trusted. My generation grew up used to this kind of behavior and still today we do not speak - it would be impossible to organise a discussion among thirty-year-olds from the former Soviet Union, we would just sit silently. At the same time we observed how language was detached from reality, and people were thinking the thoughts that were not allowed, artists found a way of expressing them in a round-about way, so that their audience would understand, but the censors could not get to them. It was fun, in a way. But it was such a relief when finally the ban on free speech was lifted and we could speak freely. Still now I feel every day how wonderful it is to be able to say what I think and not be afraid to break the rules. And lo and behold - this is happening again, just now on the international level! I hope they will wake up sooner rather than later, because when it happened late enough in the Soviet Union the fake country vanished very very quickly.
Re: the silent generation
[info]twb103 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:57 am (UTC)
As much as I want to agree with you there is no freedom of speech in the Soviet Union.
Re: the silent generation - [info]agnen - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 11:02 am (UTC) Expand
[info]gerard1904 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:15 am (UTC)
you have made a point that it is wrong for a 53 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl. Would it be more acceptable in your mind if the man had been say 23 years of age?
[info]romanysue wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 03:39 pm (UTC)
of course it wouldn't! It's not the age of the man, it's the fact that he IS aman, and she is a child. A CHILD. Paedophilia anyone?
ageism
[info]gerard1904 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:15 am (UTC)
you have made a point that it is wrong for a 53 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl. Would it be more acceptable in your mind if the man had been say 23 years of age?
Re: ageism
[info]bracestower wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 01:04 pm (UTC)
I think the key point is that the girl was 9. The fact that he was 53 merely accentuates the obscenity.
Re: ageism - [info]jrlmail - Sunday, 8 February 2009 at 06:30 am (UTC) Expand
Johann is right
[info]andrea_2 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:22 am (UTC)
I don't respect religion and have no intention of doing so. I do, however, always try and treat people respectfully, regardless of who they are and what they believe.

The religious are in chains, captives of their ritual treadmills. By carrying out rituals, either physical or verbal, they are trying to control their own fate. Others on here have pointed out that Faith and religion are not necessarily one and the same thing. To have faith that the sun will rise in the morning, is not the same thing as spending the night in chants and rituals in the hope that it will rise in the morning. Religion ties the religious into a set of thought and behaviour patterns which they hope will keep them safe. Faith is the belief that they are safe.

Some on on here has said that Christians believe in stoning adulterers. Actually, Christ stepped in between Mary Magdalen and those who would stone her to death. He taught against such practices. So stoning is not a Christian practice.

Free speech should be exactly that. The freedom to speak out and criticize, assess and discuss any subject, including all religions and religious practices. They are not above srcutiny and it is vital that oppression, agressiveness, injustice, cruelty and control is fought against by each and everyone of us.
Re: Johann is right
[info]in_honour_of wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 03:12 pm (UTC)
Although i would argue my religion makes me happier, more comfortable within myself and most importantly comfortable as a Christian following Christ's example and doing good for others free of modern day cynicism and would point to the exceedingly high proportion of charitable works carried out by religious groups in comparison to secular to show this from youth work to aid work and lastly to respect others especially those i disagree with and refrain from calling them nutters, and thus would disagree with your belief i'm in chains and would point to the high rates of depression, criminality and lack of fulfilment that a life of total secularism is a set of chains even heavier to bare. Apologies for the run on sentence. I would say i respect the fact you do not indulge the rampant misinterpretation of Christianity that has occurred here by correcting the stoning assertion wildly indulged and act with equality in saying free speech is at all times applicable even if it is trained on liberal dogmas.
Re: Johann is right - [info]andrea_2 - Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 03:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Johann is right - [info]the100thidiot - Thursday, 29 January 2009 at 09:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Johann is right - [info]nickynysmon09 - Thursday, 12 February 2009 at 07:16 am (UTC) Expand
"Islamic Declaration of Human Rights"
[info]the100thidiot wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:24 am (UTC)
"Islamic Declaration of Human Rights"

Oh, my aching sides. That's got to be a joke, hasn't it?

Or is it just a short document saying, "You haven't got any. Now get back in that hole in the ground so we can stone you to death."
Why Should I Respect Oppressive And Dysfunctional Homosexual Rights?
[info]tarquinfarquhar wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:30 am (UTC)
I tolerate practicing homosexuals but I do not accept their dysfunctional practices.

I tolerate Islam but I do not accept [as holy] their violent and sexually corrupt prophet.

I tolerate secularists but I do not accept their close-minded and dismissive rationale.

I tolerate criminals but I do not accept their aberrant behaviour.


Yours sincerely


Cuthbert Smythe-Jones
Re: Why Should I Respect Oppressive And Dysfunctional Homosexual Rights?
[info]ziva10 wrote:
Wednesday, 28 January 2009 at 09:34 pm (UTC)
Cuthbert Smythe-Jones I'm not sure grouping homosexuals, Muslims, & secularists with CRIMINALS demonstrates your alleged tolerance at all. And quite frankly who cares about who you "tolerate", a trivial comment.
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