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Mary Dejevsky: My generation has failed to promote vision of Europe

We knew the EU was a good thing, but did not realise we had to 'sell' it

Two weeks on Thursday a disgracefully small number of Britons will go to vote. The low turnout will be partly because this is not the contest the country has an appetite for just now. If your council is not up for election this year, your only vote will be for the European Parliament and – to be realistic – this will be no substitute for what many people feel like doing with their MP.

Which is a pity, because the way many European countries conduct elections and run their politics – and we don't have to restrict ourselves to Scandinavia – offers lessons we could learn; lessons in representative democracy, transparency and, not least, civic engagement. The turnout in the last general elections in Germany, France and Italy came in at or near 80 per cent.

It will be lower for the European Parliament, because it always is. But in most EU countries the turn-out will still exceed ours, because voters are less cynical there, not only about the democratic process, but also about what has come to be termed the European project. They see benefits where we see mostly liabilities. And this reflects a huge political failure, for which my generation – the first European generation – bears a heavy responsibility.

If you frequent foreign policy discussions anywhere in Britain, you will quickly appreciate how stratified foreign policy concerns are by age. If the theme is defence or the cold war, the audience will be male, grey-haired and rooted in war memories. If the theme is development or global warming, scarcely a soul will be over 40; the dress code will be jeans and T-shirts, and there will be plenty of young women with impressive records of charity work in difficult places, and informed views about how aid could be done better.

And if the discussion is about Europe, well, there are the pros and the antis and never the twain do meet. If the gathering is largely hostile to Europe, there will be a mix of ages and genders, you will hear many impassioned views, and a lot about accountability, red-tape and referendums.

But if the crowd is sympathetic to Europe, you will meet my, "sandwich", generation. The audience will be more male than female, greying, if not yet grey and dominated by white professionals, with a smattering of Continentals. It will be earnest and convinced, but rarely outgoing, excited or, indeed, messianic in the way of the others. We presumed that the European Union was a good thing, in the way that peace is self-evidently better than war. We did not realise we had to "sell" it.

The result is that we have lost the argument before one has even really taken place. For the post-war generation, there was an ideological and strategic battle to be won, which many are psychologically still fighting. You can see this in how the defence establishment clings to Nato, long after its purpose has been served. They have shifted ground, but they still have a coherent cause to represent.

You can see it in the younger generation's concerns with poverty and the future of the planet. They are intent on bringing change, and they believe it can be done, if they put the work in and campaign. They are confident and they do their homework; they don't take No for an answer. There are internal debates about how things should be done, but not whether.

We have arguments on our side, too. But we rarely marshall them to convince. We know that the EU has improved life across Europe in almost every sphere; it is so obvious we almost hesitate to put it into words. But we should try.

The EU is a new form of organisation, in which a little sovereignty is sacrificed, by consent, to the greater good. We Europeans can live, work and travel with a freedom not experienced except by the rich in the days of the Grand Tour. Most internal EU borders have melted away, while a common sense of security has given each individual nation the security to be itself.

Our regulatory standards are becoming a model for the world. The euro has survived its first, exacting test, while the economic crisis will cause less damage to most European families because of the social safety-net. This displeases many Euro-sceptics, who argue that the price of more security and greater job protection is low growth. But which, I wonder, would your family choose?

The EU is in desperate need of the manifesto my contemporaries and I failed even to formulate, let alone get across. We can only hope that the next generation of today's aspiring EU citizens will do it for us, along with those further afield who repeatedly beg the EU to be less sparing with its collective diplomatic might. They all know why the European Union is valuable and what it is for. Did we not understand that even the best ideas need defending?

m.dejevsky@independent.co.uk

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oh dear.....
[info]blobbox wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 05:11 am (UTC)
Heartfelt and I truly do sympathise which much of your reasoning BUT this isn't about some nice utopian cosiness with our neighbours, job security and economic growth - all far-too rose-tinted an outlook for what is nothing more than a long-term project aimed at reducing the individual's right to personal freedom and liberty and increasing their dependence for everything onto a european, and eventually a global, military super state.

Your championing of the euro's success at it's "first, exacting test" is very sweet but do you HONESTLY believe that this financial crisis is over already? and that the euro has, or will escape unscathed?

And haven't you heard? There's social unrest across europe at the moment that looks like it's going to brew-up alongside the weather into a very long, very hot and very bothersome summer. The Euro may well not survive that for starters never mind the economic war that's going-on.
Re: oh dear.....
[info]steve_wilds wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:32 am (UTC)
"far-too rose-tinted an outlook for what is nothing more than a long-term project aimed at reducing the individual's right to personal freedom and liberty"

Is there a European country that has less personal freedom, liberty and fewer rights to privacy that Britain? Is there a EU country that enforces EU laws with anything like the same kind of vehement authoritarianism than Britain?
Re: oh dear..... - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: oh dear..... - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: oh dear..... - [info]blobbox - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 03:09 pm (UTC) Expand
Stuff the EU
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:31 am (UTC)
"Two weeks on Thursday a disgracefully small number of Britons will go to vote"

If the political class (and their journalistic toadies) don't trust the people then dissolve them and elect a new people.

If anyone, politician, journalist or commoner wants to live in the corrupt European superstate they are, under current rules, allowed to relocate to the European province (formerly country) of their choice. Ms Dejevsky, for example, could continue to write her anti-British drivel from anywhere in Europe. And the Independent (if it survives) could continue to publish it.

Best to make your move soon, though, because once the UK is a nation again the European superstate won't want you.
Re: Stuff the EU
[info]hcurtiss wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:46 pm (UTC)
Corrupt European superstate???? Have you been reading the news lately, chum? Our MP troughers could teach the European MPS how to combine fraulent expenses with total incompetence. Anti-British drivel?? Why is prosperity anti-British?
Re: Stuff the EU - [info]auntyeunice - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:56 pm (UTC) Expand
The EU
[info]sandn09 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:47 am (UTC)
Vote for Europe is an interesting idea but for whom. If there was an investigation of claims for "expenses" as in the UK it is highly likely that the numbers involved would be even higher. And how much money is used by the lobbyists to change the texts in their companies favour? If we are to believe in the EU is it not time that Brussels published how much money and favours are used to swing votes, who pays and who gets it?
COMMON MARKET
[info]indypen wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:53 am (UTC)
What was originaly voted on as a trading market has morphed into something faustian
Re: COMMON MARKET
[info]pete_s wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:30 am (UTC)

Because the European Market, as it was sold to us, is a European Lie. Having watched the socialists in this country cock it up time after time, I see no reason why European socialists, who are constructing a European superstate, doing any better.

The evidence for NO is, a Parliament with bigger pigs troughs than our Parliament. An executive that takes less notice of Parliament then our one does. A professional ruling class that thinks it has a GOD given right to rule and the party of choice merely a vehicle.
Re: COMMON MARKET - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: COMMON MARKET - [info]indypen - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: COMMON MARKET - [info]pete_s - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:43 pm (UTC) Expand
No to Federalism.
[info]saynoin2010 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:24 am (UTC)
European integration as a trading partnership is desireable. A 'United States of Europe' absolutely is not. For justification of an anti-federalist view one only needs to study the excesses and blatant neo-colonialism of the US. It is eveident that the European clone will not ultimately improve the lot of ordinary people.

I would strongly recommend any journalist bent on writing about the benefits of federalism to understand the motivation of the elite in establishing a european behemoth before singing it's praises to the skies.

Yet more elitist propaganda, shameful in a paper called 'The Independant'.
People say NO to superstate.
[info]scousekraut wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:04 am (UTC)
Most people in most European countries do not want a Federal State of Europe, with one government, one army, one currency, one President, one Foreign Policy, etc. This is not what we were sold and we want our money back.

In my view it is part of a much bigger plan to an eventual world currency, and world superstate. In such a world big corporations, financed and run by big finance, would hold the upper hand, and most of us would just be cogs functioning in a machine, even more than we are already.

There is a battle taking place between those that want to control us and those of us who do not want to be controlled, with the majority of people not having a clue and watching footbal and going shopping. Gradually they are getting their fat backsides up from the TV and taking a look outside.
Europe
[info]devoniam wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
I'm afraid that sadly this is too late. The British electorate does not even have the vocabulary to discuss the issues, let alone understand them: thanks largely to the failure to defend the European idea and to an ignorant press which have fed the public with the Eurosceptic propaganda of the newspaper owners, many of whom do not even pay tax in the UK. I am afraid that once the Lisbon Treaty comes into force and William Hague threatens to denounce it, our European partners will invite us, politely, to leave. Membership of the European Economic Area will be as expensive as our membership of the EU and we will have no say over the EU legislation which we will have to enact. Once we are out of the EU, watch out for the mass exodus of industry: Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW and Rolls Royce, I would put my money on leaving.
Re: Europe
[info]auntyeunice wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:27 pm (UTC)
Typical Europhile trading in fear. Was it fear that had us all out voting in favour of Maasstricht or Nice, was it the sheer delights of the possibility of federal super state that had us flocking to vote in favour of Lisbon?
Silly me, they never thought to ask me did they. I'm too stupid to ask my opinion on issues such as these, still I'm smart enough to tax me to penuary to sweeten the ever open hands in Europe.
These friggers have been building this entity for 50 years with little consultation of the great unwashed, and when they do ask they don't like the answer so go away sulk and then ignore it. This lack of acknowledgement of the electorate should be a marker for all the yawning Europhiles out there who haven't the energy to get out and vote for something that is completely without democratic foundation.
I heard on the Euro news channel today describe abstention from voting, not as complacancy or apathy but contentment. So for those who couldn't be bother to get out and spoil your vote in disgust of the stealth used to squeeze us into Europe and the greed of our MP's, just remember you are now considered content. Keep up the contentment and they will deside you don't need to vote at all.
Bless
[info]peersrogue wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
No do not feel 'European' never did and now certainly do not want to. Soviet Republic of Europe? No thanks, got enough scrounging MPs and a strange PM all of our own.

Looking forward to watching the social unrest and European meltdown this summer. Cynical - too right!
We were never asked about the EU, only about the Common Market
[info]robertclondon wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:11 am (UTC)
The first question I have is: why on earth do we vote on a Thursday. Why not at the weekend, when people have got more time and don't have to rush to and from work? That in itself may help increase turnout.

The second point is, Mary Dejevsky may, rightly, say: "We know that the EU has improved life across Europe in almost every sphere", but has it improved life in the UK? After all, we were not the cause of war in Europe, we were, in WW2 at least, the solution, so that undermines a fundamental part of her argument.

The reason the debate has been lost is because the British people were asked whether they wanted to join the Common Market, sold as a free trade area. They have never been asked whether they wanted to share sovereignty with other countries in a political project called the European Union. It may well be the case, that all things considered, we do want to do that. But politicians have done us the courtesy of asking us. That is why people are cynical about it. Why debate something where you don't have a choice anyway?
Re: We were never asked about the EU, only about the Common Market
[info]popskihaynes wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:37 pm (UTC)
Absolutely right.

Mary Dejevsky writes along the lines "Oh we forgot to make our case..." which frankly is like an MP saying "I forgot to stop claiming for the mortgage I paid off 18 months ago..." and about as plausible.

No you didn't and the total proof is that despicable creature called Gordon Brown sneaking in the back-door to sign the Lisbon Treaty. If he believed in it, he should have stood up for it and explained it, if he was ashamed of signing it then clearly "Death before dishonour" is not his family motto.

The problem with you Mary and the whole EU is identical to the demented Brown clinging on to Office:

He somehow imagines that eventually we will all see the light, with one bound he will be free, we will all see him for the hero he always was, choirs of angels will burst forth in song !

For the EU, it is if they can tie everybody up in red tape, destroy their national democracy whilst feeding the citizens bread and circuses, they will all realise how being ruled by unelected bureaucrats as Benign Despots, is all they have ever wanted, choirs of angels will sing Ode to Joy !

You are stark staring bonkers, I and a lot of people want that Referendum and I will abide by the decision of my fellow British citizens, I want out but even if it is our last democratic act, I want the Referendum and I want you and your fellow travellers to explain exactly why this 3rd rate Hapsburg Empire is anything of benefit to the UK.

Finally in all your words above, I never saw one attempt to even try to explain to a British audience just why the EU is so good and we all know why - there just isn't a case. Daft Labour Ministers talk about 3 million British jobs reliant on us being part of the EU when it is patently obvious given our trade deficit that at least 6 million EU jobs depend upon us and even EU Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:48 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]popskihaynes - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: What have the EU Romans done for Us ?? - [info]hcurtiss - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 07:47 pm (UTC) Expand
I jumped on the
[info]l3enz0 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:13 am (UTC)
Euro bus for improved shopping and nothing else , now the ticket inspector wants to dictate when and where and for how long I shop and what I do when I get home . I want to get off this bus now . I'll be voting UKIP in the upcoming Euro elections for the first time ever .
Move and let me take your place. I am a very good plumber.
[info]famulla wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:36 am (UTC)
Mary Dejevsky: My generation has failed to promote its vision of Europe
Mary, Mary, Mary, and Mary you seem to be everywhere even where the bids do not perch.
Here I see you in the Russia with the ice cubes and the cold wars. Whatever happen to the hot I seem to have lost track after the Iraq and Afghanistan. ,
I do not overlook the Israel?s strength,. Here are the facts. Obama's message to Israel: seize this moment
Behind the diplomacy, an uncompromising message from President to Netanyahu
From 1950s we have failed in this, why, why, why, why we promise all the good news today.
President Obama tells Israel: stop expanding settlements President Obama yesterday embarked on his most daunting diplomatic challenge yet by telling Israel to take ?difficult steps? towards peace, allow a Palestinian state and halt settlement expansion on occupied land. His talks with Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel?s hardliner( I have no idea what the soft and hard line mean as I play the golf that has holes), Prime Minister, marked the start of an intensive focus on the Middle East. Mr Obama hopes to re-start a peace process that has stalled under a succession of US presidents.
Is There a New Cold War with Russia? | Standpoint.Online
Mary Dejevsky is chief editorial writer of the Independent. ... Archive of Mary Dejevsky's articles at The Independent ? Edward Lucas' website ...
www.standpointmag.co.uk/is-there-a-new-cold-war-with-russia-october - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
Mary Dejevsky: Don't overlook Israel's vulnerability - Topix
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New Statesman - Britain's award-winning current affairs magazine.
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Now how on the earth on the moon do we have unity. You are spoiling the fun Mary. Move and let me take your place. I am a very good plumber.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
Rose-Colored Recession What Does it Mean?
[info]famulla wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:43 am (UTC)
Mary Dejevsky: My generation has failed to promote its vision of Europe
We knew the EU was a good thing, but did not realise we had to 'sell' it
Rose-Colored Recession What Does it Mean?
The unexpected optimism market observers sometimes experience during a recession. A rose-colored recession reflects the sometimes unwarranted positivity of the general public following news or data released during a recession; it is still considered bad news, but is better than expected.
The term rose-colored recession was coined during the financial crisis of 2008-2009 in reference to optimism shown by market observers and government officials following bad economic data, such as corporate earnings announcements and unemployment numbers, that were "not as bad as feared" or "bad, but not that bad". Quite often these events led t
I thank you
Firozali A Mulla

[info]dogsolitude_v2 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 08:50 am (UTC)
Any chance of an investigation into MEP expenses?
the euro con
[info]hammy82 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:08 am (UTC)
Mary, you like all the other socialsit dreamers are over, your dream is over.... the whole thing was a lie, the rules and regs were obscene, bent bananas ??? a euro councill that picks it self, some democracy, accounts books that no one will write off, the OUTRAGES corruption and the black hole of BILLIONS. and to the others on here who say the UK doesnt have the intelligence or words to comprehend, read the above and try and justify that........... and the point about the rerendum where at least the euro politicians where more honest about what it was................if its all good and opn/honest why do so many people in europe vote against it .... GAME OVER YOU HAVE BEEN SUSSED OUT.
Europe go go!
[info]helsingborgtown wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:17 am (UTC)
I want us to join the Euro so We don't have to fill the banks pockets when we go abroad, charges when we buy euros. I think we could save our money if we had one integrated armed services. We can rid us from NATO. We could cut back on numbers of members of parliament! Now we have the right to move freely around Europe which is great. Trade efficiency common product standards make everything easier and cheaper for us. Best of all we might avoid armed conflicts within Europe.
Re: Europe go go!
[info]popskihaynes wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:59 pm (UTC)
Jolly good, off you go then, bye !

Unless you travel very frequently and spend vast amounts of money whilst doing so, I'm not sure what your problem is. Our currency has devalued against the Euro so you are 30% worse off anyway.

As for integrated Armed Forces, they would have to be French led, likely only the British, Dutch, Danes and some of the newer Eastern European countries would ever do any fighting. But then again Germany wouldn't allow the United States of Europe to ever go to war if only because they wouldn't spend the money on Armed Forces. It would be more para-military riot police than army after all, that is all you need to suppress internal rebellions isn't it ?
Re: Europe go go! - [info]auntyeunice - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:07 pm (UTC) Expand
It's more than complacency
[info]larkspur_14 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:42 am (UTC)
it is moral cowardice. Politicians have been afraid to confront the core of opposition to the EU - the blinkered, jingoistic mob which hates foreigners and nurtures dreams of Empire still, which sees freedom as the unregulated, individualistic right to trample, oppress and dominate, to take without respect for others or concern for their rights. We have let these thugs define the EU on their terms, as we have let them define freedom and responsibility on their terms, and the result is a degraded, impoverished, reductive "debate" not merely devoid of idealism and vision, but hostile to them.
Re: It's more than complacency
[info]indypen wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:21 am (UTC)
Everyone who opposes the EU is labeled as an extreme, little Englander, all brown shirts and funny salutes. An opponent of the stalinist superstate, is in reality a freedom lover, wanting true democracy. Ireland voted against the Lisbon treaty, but they must vote again until they get the right result. Uk not allowed to vote even though the citizens were promised a vote- smacks of democracy does it? And what is the EU if not a vast empire? A debate-- all opposition is stifled in the superstate.
You want more of the current politics we have seen on dispaly in the past few weeks. Talk about corruption, when was the last time the EUs auditors signed off the acounts? Get over you naive student right on politics and put your brain into gear.
A LITTLE SOVEREIGNTY SACRIFICED
[info]indypen wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 09:59 am (UTC)
How do you measure sovereignty? In pig troughs I presume. We have sacrificed more than a little.
Euroland in recession
[info]penruddock wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC)
Whatever else may be said about this article, it's sadly off beam as regards its view of the effects of the recession on continental Europe. The testing of the euro has only just begun, and if any of the East European or Mediterranean countries default on their debt payments, the euro could take a terrible battering. Figures released by Eurostat last Friday suggest that many of the continental European countries have been far more deeply affected by the recession than Britain. The German economy is contracting at the fastest rate since 1945, and other euroland countries, including Spain and Ireland, are facing something akin to an economic slump. So far, Europe's response to the recession has been slow, weak, and hesitant, and suggests that "united Europe" is a sham that disguises the existence of several conflicting European nationalisms. Before we get excited about it, let's see if "united Europe" actually works, especially when times are bad.
Europe
[info]len46 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:11 am (UTC)
No sovereignty is sacrificed ! Where now are the majority of laws affecting the UK made ? Not in the UK parliament, but in Brussels.
Re: Europe
[info]devoniam wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:33 am (UTC)
The majority of UK laws are not made in Brussels. Most EU legislation is about technical matters and is designed to facilitate trade by eliminating barriers. Even if the UK were not in the EU we would have to comply with its laws in order to trade with the other Member States (particularly if we joined the EEA), but we would have no say whatsoever in their adoption. I cannot see why the UK people are so frightened of the EU. The UK has been a disappointment to many other States in the EU, who had hoped that its inlfluence would be for the good. The other countries are no less nation States for having agreed to pool certain limited areas of sovereignty. As for Europe being a socialist super-State, it is only necessary to read the Treaty in order to see that it is based on the market economy. If the UK leaves the EU, it will have to take the consequences in terms of jobs and lack of influence in the world. Its departure, however, may well be a good thing for the EU in the longer term.
The UK a disappointment??? - [info]robertclondon - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 06:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Euro elections/democratic???
[info]habook wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 10:31 am (UTC)
My euro constituency, the East Midlands, has around 4 million voters. It is impossible to meet prospective MEPs, or go to public meetings or for even the big parties to afford to post literature during the selection process. Prospective candidates are chosen by a tiny handful of activists, and nothing in the entire process has anything to do with democracy. Voting hardly works fairly in the national elections where the numbers of registered voters per constituency are much less than 10% of the euro farce. If you don't like the candidate at the top of the EU list, hard luck, he/she will get in anyway. The EU parliament is a talking shop, with the real power held by appointees, whose edicts they rubber stamp, which we are forced to swallow without comment.

Many things are better in France, Germany and Scandinavia, but that seems to be more about, more effective, more honest and more people-centred policies locally than by interferrence by Brussles. Its great to have one currency and to be able to pass freely from Poland to Germany to Austria to France etc without showing passports and avoiding the absurdity of paying extortionate fees to banks every time, but we, the UK, have gained none of these benefits.

Stansted now feels like Check Point Charlie, complete with machine gun holding police, and even though I am an indiginous white national I have a lurking fear of arrest without charge and being 'disappeared'. The uk border feels heavy and the regime feels pernicious. Like a third world dicatorship, with this mixture of inefficiency and spite, corruption and inquisitiveness, behind the polite smiles. I wonder if I should put a $20 note in my passport, as I would do entering Nepal, for example, to speed up my entrance. Or maybe $100 following Brown's trashing of the value of the pound. Cynicism aside, its only time before we are charged to come in and out. The columnist is right, the EU sure needs selling! But if we want a better life, we should start at home.
Referendum please.
[info]ptstroud wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:22 am (UTC)
I voted for the Common Market and even accepted some centralisation and standardisation as the EU progressed. I was even prepared to accept some rules and laws being imposed on us from Brussels. In fact until very recently I was nearly as pro EU as Ken Clarke and most of the LibDems. But no more.

The behaviour of the EU politicians over the Constitution and its dratted treaty successor has made me realise just how much democracy we have lost over the years. Furthermore, the disgusting behaviour of Brown and his morally bankrupt government over the referendum was the last straw.

I just hope and pray that Brown is forced to go to the country and Cameron gives us the referendum we need when he wins.
NOT LIKE CHURCHILL YEARS IS IT
[info]famulla wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 11:48 am (UTC)
THOSE WERE THE DAYS
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
European Security
[info]richard213 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:13 pm (UTC)
So Europeans have a common sense of security?
Wasn't this provided mainly by the Nuclear Powers, the UK, France, and most of all the USA via that "outmoded" institute NATO?
[info]dan667 wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:38 pm (UTC)
Mary - don't you concede it seems immensely arrogant of you to think that your view on Europe is automatically correct and you shouldn't have to justify it to anyone? Why should your view alone be exempted from debate? I cannot quite believe you felt it was a good idea to admit this in print. Most people see nothing but liabilities in Europe - this is true. So why does that automatically mean they must simply accept it, without it being "sold" to them?
A very bizarre argument, and a presumptious and condescending column.
[info]hcurtiss wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 02:56 pm (UTC)
Mary simply states an axiom so fundamentally obvious that most intelligent people don't actually need to be convinced. The alternative isolationist independence is the real 'BraveHeart' myth- to use an example. Scotlands victory at Bannockburn ensured 6 centuries of freedom, isolationism and of course - total poverty as they were excluded from the rich wool trading wealth of UK. When Scotland joined this 'proto' Euro common market their fortunes changed and Scotland emerged as a foremost wealth generator.

Trading partnerships either as CommonWealth or Euro Market have always been the key to our prosperity. In all cases harmonisation of rules rarely infringes on personal freedom. Infact, on the contrary, it engenders and defines common freedoms in the same way the American constitution defines freedom for its states. America is the best example of a free superpower engineered from disparate states (hence the name STATE!)with different customs and interests. This was as obvious to President Lincoln prior to the civil war as it is to Gordon Brown trying to waken our nation of Sun readers to reality!
HISTORY SCHMISTORY - [info]indypen - Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 04:26 pm (UTC) Expand
GLOBALIZATION
[info]kellymontieth wrote:
Tuesday, 19 May 2009 at 01:57 pm (UTC)
The fundamentals of the European Economic Community were a good idea.
Member countries being able to freely trade on a level playing field with economic policies in place
to protect member states from adversaries like famine and shortages.
As the EEU evolves, it becomes more apparent their hidden agenda is much more sinister.....

Quote "Our regulatory standards are becoming a model for the world. "

Once a Federal States of Europe has evolved, it will self promote further enlargement.

Is this a belief of an Utopian World's future or simply a POLITICAL GLOBALIZATION attempt?

For one reason or another, I cannot see a peaceful means to achieve this form of globalization.
My vision of an Utopian World disappears when one size fits all and everyone WILL comply.

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