Commentators

Mostly Cloudy with Showers 14° London Hi 14°C / Lo 8°C

Patrick Cockburn: In Israel, detachment from reality is now the norm

All these years on from Sabra and Chatila, has anything changed?

I was watching the superb animated documentary Waltz with Bashir about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It culminates in the massacre of some 1,700 Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps in south Beirut by Christian militiamen introduced there by the Israeli army which observed the butchery from close range.

In the last few minutes the film switches from animation to graphic news footage showing Palestinian women screaming with grief and horror as they discover the bullet-riddled bodies of their families. Then, just behind the women, I saw myself walking with a small group of journalists who had arrived in the camp soon after the killings had stopped.

The film is about how the director, Ari Folman, who knew he was at Sabra and Chatila as an Israeli soldier, tried to discover both why he had repressed all memory of what happened to him and the degree of Israeli complicity in the massacre.

Walking out of the cinema, I realised that I had largely repressed my own memories of that ghastly day. I could not even find a clipping in old scrapbooks of the article I had written about what I had seen for the Financial Times for whom I then worked. Even now my memory is hazy and episodic, though I can clearly recall the sickly sweet smell of bodies beginning to decompose, the flies clustering around the eyes of the dead women and children, and the blood-smeared limbs and heads sticking out of banks of brown earth heaped up by bulldozers in a half-hearted attempt to bury the corpses.

Soon after seeing Waltz with Bashir I saw TV pictures of the broken bodies of the Palestinians killed by Israeli bombs and shells in Gaza during the 22-day bombardment. At first I thought that little had changed since Sabra and Chatila. Once again there were the same tired and offensive excuses that Israel was somehow not to blame. Hamas was using civilians as human shields, and in any case – this argument produced more furtively – two-thirds of people in Gaza had voted for Hamas so they deserved whatever happened to them.

But on returning to Jerusalem 10 years after I was stationed here as The Independent's correspondent between 1995 and 1999 I find that Israel has changed significantly for the worse. There is far less dissent than there used to be and such dissent is more often treated as disloyalty.

Israeli society was always introverted but these days it reminds me more than ever of the Unionists in Northern Ireland in the late 1960s or the Lebanese Christians in the 1970s. Like Israel, both were communities with a highly developed siege mentality which led them always to see themselves as victims even when they were killing other people. There were no regrets or even knowledge of what they inflicted on others and therefore any retaliation by the other side appeared as unprovoked aggression inspired by unreasoning hate.

At Sabra and Chatila the first journalist to find out about the massacre was an Israeli and he desperately tried to get it stopped. This would not happen today because Israeli journalists, along with all foreign journalists, were banned from entering Gaza before the Israeli bombardment started. This has made it far easier for the government to sell the official line about what a great success the operation has been.

Nobody believes propaganda so much as the propagandist so Israel's view of the outside world is increasingly detached from reality. One academic was quoted as saying that Arabs took all their views about was happening in Israel from what Israelis said about themselves. So if Israelis said they had won in Gaza, unlike Lebanon in 2006, Arabs would believe this and Israeli deterrence would thereby be magically restored.

Intolerance of dissent has grown and may soon get a great deal worse. Benjamin Netanyahu, who helped bury the Oslo accords with the Palestinians when he was last prime minister from 1996 to 1999, is likely to win the Israeli election on 10 February. The only issue still in doubt is the extent of the gains of the extreme right.

The views of these were on display this week as Avigdor Lieberman, the chairman of the Ysrael Beitenu party, which, according to the polls will do particularly well in the election, was supporting the disqualification of two Israeli Arab parties from standing in the election. "For the first time we are examining the boundary between loyalty and disloyalty," he threatened their representatives. "We'll deal with you like we dealt with Hamas."

Post a Comment

View all comments that have been posted about this article.

Offensive or abusive comments will be removed and your IP logged and may be used to prevent further submission. In submitting a comment to the site, you agree to be bound by the Independent Minds Terms of Service.

Comments

Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>
The Reality
[info]greg_dingo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 12:41 am (UTC)
Thanks Patrick

This article helps explain a few things;

The unreasoning hatred of many of the pro-Zionist comments seen in papers like this recently. They attack even neutral commentators if they dare criticise Israel or the IDFs actions on purely humanitarian grounds.

Why it is so hard to hear or see coverage of the dissadent Israeli voices of late. I don't hate all Israelis, I just hate the intolerant, vicious, inhuman criminals that seems to make up so much of their leadership and command these days

Israel may have actually done itself a service this time, by buring the moderate voices and allowing the right-wing extremists to slate their bloodlust they have lost more than just a propaganda war. This may lead to even the USA criticising their conduct and not vetoing a UN resolution calling for War Crimes Trials (though I won't hold my breath on that one). Either way Israel may have just gone one step too far this time and it's collective conscience might experience some of the guilt familiar to that experienced by the Post WWII German Society. This may in turn lead to a Reality Check and some real progress towards Peace.
Israel and Gaza
[info]calgramps wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 03:03 am (UTC)
When I was boy in the USA during WW II, there were photos and newsreels of Russian, Polish and other moms with their dying kids, of blown up people with their destroyed homes in the background, and more coutrtesy of the Nazis who loved pummeling helpless people. Later, the good people of the world including the USA, got busy, the Russians regrouped, and soon there were photos of German soldiers decorating the Berlin lampposts courtesy of the Red Army. Then came Nuremberg and about 20 top Nazis were dispatched in one day.

People get beat up, but later they come back at you with lots of big angry friends who want to and do kill you. Good luck Israelis and Israeli enablers.. you're going to need it ...that's just the way it works..
Patrick Cockburn, another dishonest, anti-Israel liar?
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC)
Why do all the Independent antisemites keep trying to blame Israel for what Christian Lebanese people did? Lebanon was in civil war, and Christians and Muslims were killing tens of thousands of each other. But you keep referring to an isolated event where Israelis were nearby, and trying to cast blame on them, as if they were sitting watching the killing on sofas eating popcorn. What sort of mental disease do you anti-israel bigots have that you continue to do this?
Re: Mental Disease
[info]saraal65 wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
The only people with MENTAL DISEASE are people like yourself who can't accept the fact that Israel is founded on terrorism..is a bloodthirsty out of control country with a nation that is mostly completely deluded, and those Israelis that have a conscience..not many of them, but some nevertheless possess some kind of humanity ,are going to be silenced by the vicious Zionist Nazis.

Writers such as Patrick Cockburn and Robert Fisk will not allow themselves to be silenced while Israel commits atrocity after atrocity. Good on them for voicing what so many millions around the world feel about Israel's crimes against the Palestinians and humanity.
Re: Mental Disease - [info]exec_ceo - Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Mental Disease - [info]rowan_berkeley - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 06:14 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Patrick Cockburn, another dishonest, anti-Israel liar? - [info]las202 - Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Patrick Cockburn, another dishonest, anti-Israel liar? - [info]nav01 - Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Patrick Cockburn, another dishonest, anti-Israel liar? - [info]maigoro - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
Patrick Cockburn, exec_ceo wr, and anti-semitism
[info]tonyf12 wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 07:59 am (UTC)
Why do we get this endless wah-wah anti-semitism rant every time anyone dares to say the current Zionist Israeli government might have gone even the slightest thing wrong? I see no evidence of Patrick Cockburn or anyone else at the Independent being institutionally anti-semitic, which is a grave and unfounded accusation.

Give us a break Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms exec_ceo wr. Come up with something more intelligent to justify the hundreds of dead children in Gaza and the piles of rubble.

Worst enemy own - rearrange these three words to define Israeli policy towards its neighbours.

Obama did not get into the White House by wailing on about slavery, he got in by positive thinking - good luck to him. Time for exec_ceo wr to learn a new tune.
Re: Patrick Cockburn, exec_ceo wr, and anti-semitism
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:49 pm (UTC)
Positive thinking is great, but good luck trying to be 'positive' while dreaming with insane palestinian terrorist organizations with millions of palestinian supporters who think that never-ending war against israel's very existence is a sane idea.
Human shields don't seem to go away.
[info]barren_2 wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:28 am (UTC)
During WW II, Jewish people were hidden among the civilian population of The Netherlands and other German occupied countries to possibly save their lives at great risk. Civilians acted as 'human shields.'

Today, we see the Israeli government, one or two generations later, accusing Hamas in Gaza of using civilians as 'human shields' as an excuse for having killed so many.

Have words become empty?
Re: Human shields don't seem to go away.
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:37 pm (UTC)
It says a lot about you that you see Hamas, an insane islamic terrorist organization that is so crazy they are willing to blow themselves up, and yet you refuse to believe they're willing to sacrifice other arabs too
Re: Human shields don't seem to go away. - [info]sketchley - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 11:25 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Human shields don't seem to go away. - [info]nos235 - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 01:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Human shields don't seem to go away. - [info]dad_2 - Saturday, 24 January 2009 at 09:12 pm (UTC) Expand
israeli attitudes
[info]davidmorpurgo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 09:52 am (UTC)
I have not got a particular insight into what Israeli,s believe but i can say that however flawed ,Gaza and parts of the west bank have been handed back to the Palestinians .
This is more than Egypt and Jordan ever did .Since Gaza was handed back violence has increased can you not understand why Israeli,s may have given up on peace now Hamas is the government.


"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our nation was tested by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation... Be certain that America is on its way to utter destruction, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine... Make us victorious over the community of infidels... Allah, take the Jews and their allies, Allah, take the Americans and their allies... Allah, annihilate them completely and do not leave anyone of them."
(Sheikh Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, April 20, 2007; as reported by Palestinian Media Watch, April 23, 2007)


"[Hamas] will not change a single word in its covenant [which is calling for the destruction of Israel]."
(Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas leader, after casting his vote in the Gaza Strip, January 25, 2006, Ha'aretz


"The vanquishing of the enemy in Gaza does not mean that this stage has ended. We still have Jerusalem and the pure West Bank. We will not rest until we liberate all our land, all our Palestine. We do not distinguish between what was occupied in the 1940s and what was occupied in the 1960s. Our Jihad continues, and we still have a long way to go. We will continue until the very last usurper is driven out of our land."
(Sheik Nizar Rayan, Hamas "political" leader, at a rally in Gaza, Al-Jazeera TV on September 16, 2005, MEMRI)


She [first Hamas woman suicide bomber] is not going to be the last because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only over the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe."
(Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, at funeral of Reem Raiyshi, who murdered 4 people, January 15, 2004, AP)"


Perhaps Hamas and its aims have pushed Israeli,s regretably to the hardliners.if anti-judaism is at the heart of Hamas is it suprising more Israeli,s have become anti-Palestinian.
Anti-Semitism
[info]oldskald wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 09:58 am (UTC)
Just to make the debate clearer, please could we clear something up about the use of the highly charged term "anti-semitism"? Anti-semitism refers to the irrational hatred of Semitic peoples. The Jews are, by and large, Semitic people. But so are the Arabs. Anti-semitism can refer equally to them. It is possible to accuse Jews themselves of being anti-semitic, therefore, although I wouldn't - more like anti-Arab. And please, in future, can we use "anti-Isreali", or "anti-Jewish" as casually hurled insults to those who disagree with IDF and Isreali Govt policy? Just to avoid the impression that the majority of folk outside Isreal and the USA actually approve of Isreali policy towards the Palestinians. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, as we have found over the last decades with regard to US sponsored foreign policy....
Re: Anti-Semitism
[info]isnado1 wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 05:50 pm (UTC)
Most Israelis are hardly semitic. They're white and of European descent. Remember, most of them originated from Europe after the war and then setup the Jewish state. Most of the charges of anti-semitism are ridiculous especially coming from someone who's white. The people who closest resemble anyone semitic are the Israeli Arabs. These charges are usually a red herring meant to shut someone up rather than actually dealing with the issue. That I may disagree with Israel's foreign policy doesn't immediately make me an anti-semite. I still respect Jewish people but I just don't agree with some of the things they do. Does that make me a Jew hater? What utter nonesense. If I'm American and disagree with US foreign policy, does that make me an anti-american? Sounds absurd. During the cold war, I disagreed with the Russian communist government, but I didn't hate it's people. People are people and don't equate to state government. And what really gets to me is the shear hypocracy of some Jews. They lambast someone for disagreeing with them but in the next sentence go and rant how the Palestinians ought to be destroyed.
What?!
[info]dg14_shibby wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 11:11 am (UTC)
Detached from reality? You sure that isn't you? At least the Israeli government doesn't murder the opposition once it's elected. Get a grip of the situation and I'll respect your views.
Re: What?!
[info]oldskald wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 12:48 pm (UTC)
Sorry, but don't you mean "agree with me and I'll respect your views"? This article is about the hardening of attitudes on both sides of the divide. I remember when there was a crebile opposition in Israel. This opposition seems to have been sidelined, both by stupid Hamas actions in forcing Israel's hand (intifada is vastly different from indiscriminate rocket fire, it shows a willingness not to accept injustice rather than furthering the same), and by its coup against Fatah, and also by a shift to the right in Israel itself.

Israel DOES play the martyr. But this is the same Israel that conducted massive land-grabs, and still occupies land acquired in a very "old Europe" style. But this isn't the 18th or 19th century. The world has moved on and people have learnt from each other (not enough it seems). Occupied land now triggers passionate, militant reactions both from the occupied and the occupiers. Hence the current situation. Lastly, let's not forget that for all Israel screams about terrorists, they founded their state on terrorism. One of the prime-ministers was directly responsible for terrorist acts - but oh! Sorry! They were "freedom fighters" weren't they, not terrorists? It all depends on where you stand, and I don't expect anyone supporting Israel to acknowledge this, but you have to understand that large parts of the rest of the world understand that there is no real distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters except "victory".
Re: What?! - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:11 am (UTC) Expand
Pro Zionists
[info]bundubasher wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 12:08 pm (UTC)
Being anti Zionist mindless violence is quite different to being anti Semite which belongs in history, and the worst of those were never Islamic but Christians.!! Do get a grip all you pro Zionists only prove how far removed you are from reality when attacking someone who writes an article saying you are.!! You witter on and on and on about the Holocaust too ,as if Jews were the only race inside concentration camps when they were not. West has been held to ransom on some "guilt trip" ever since.Enough already.! If it is "never to happen again" as they so love to preach they could set an example by not behaving like murderous thugs with American weapons.
Re: Pro Zionists
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:46 pm (UTC)
It's 2008. Israel was being constantly attacked by gaza, so Israel went into gaza and smacked them around. Hamas have sworn to destroy Israel. If they ever become sane, and call for a permanent peace, both sides will have peace. But anti-Israel bigots like Cockburn want to use every excuse in the book to hurl criticism for every single thing humanly possible at Israel, while barely uttering a word about the fact that the Palestinians are lead by crazy people who could have settled this decades ago but would rather just attack Israel forever.
Re: Pro Zionists - [info]mikisit - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 05:07 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Pro Zionists - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC) Expand
Patrick Cockburn, another dishonest, anti-Israel liar?
[info]donnacdh wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 12:29 pm (UTC)
The pro-Israeli comments on this thread are beautifully consistent with Cockburn's argument that propaganda is believed most intensely by the propagandists. Don't the posters realise how they are confirming his opinion ? They should attack it instead: aren't they supposed to be opposed to him, not on his side ?
Indoctrination
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC)
To understand some of this, you also have to understand the whole concept of some parts of Judaism too.

Jews consider themselves the "chosen ones" and this never really impacted on other people or faiths much until Israel was formed, Jewish communities tended to be closed and secular but at peace for the most part with their neighbours.

However religion attracts extremism and through this, Zionism reared its head in the late Victorian era and by the time of WWII it had become quite powerful and used what happened to the European Jews to its own uses to justify its goals.

However if you look through the Talmud itself, the old one not the later "fit for public scrutiny" one that is, you would begin to see why the Israeli's do act as they do, decades long indoctrination has led to a mindset so assured of its own superiority, its invulnerability but it also shares a lot of fundamental common issues as the mantra of the Soviet, the Aryan, their way was the ONLY way and anyone else was worthless.

I don't have the various tenets and their authors to hand but when you see such passages that say its OK to lie, cheat and swindle non-Jews, its OK to steal from non-Jews, that 10,000 non Jewish lives aren't worth a finger of a Jew etc etc, using these as a filter on reality it is more apparent why the Israeli's feel quite at ease at the human destruction it metes out against its neighbours, they simply do not see them as people, they have been indoctrinated and brought up that such as the Arabs are simply animals walking around in human form or savages with animal mentality intent on killing them all.

You can see this at work when Olmert off-handedly claims he told Bush what to do, or on YouTube where Israeli youths are attacking a BBC film crew and their remarks about killing Christ amongst things.

But the loyalty credo has also been the marching banner for the Soviets, the Aryans and it seems that bad times are ahead for people in Israel that are not Jewish, to question the Reich was certain death as was questioning the Supreme Soviet would lead to a long time in a slave camp if they were lucky, the loyalty chant is the chant of the extremist and it bodes ill for peace in that region.
Re: Indoctrination
[info]mikisit wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 11:11 pm (UTC)
Neither the text of the Talmud nor the tenets of Judaism explain anything about Israel's behaviour. Deranged colonial and racist violence has been committed by Christians, atheists - just about any religion you care to name. Imperialists are all the same; if Palestinian refugees were forcibly deported to, say, Madagascar, told to set up their homeland there, and given nuclear weapons and trillions of dollars to act as a colonial garrison there, after a while they would behave in a manner indistinguishable from the Israelis. Israel's brutality is not to be accounted for by poring over ancient texts, which few Israelis care about (Israeli Jews are not particularly religious). Any explanation must also account for the fact that, throughout history, people of all races and religions have become enthusiastic racist murderers once they saw it as a way to turn a profit. Israel is just one of the most extreme examples still in operation: extreme because of the extreme disparity in military strength between oppressor and victim, and because of the incredibly quick turnaround of so many European Jews, from persecuted diaspora to blood-and-soil racists. The problem isn't in Judaism -- it is in the incredible psychological power of imperialism to make people forsake international solidarity and betray any distort they may once have held, so now Israelis can engage in racist, anti-democratic violence, all allegedly in the name of peace, democracy, and racial equality.

If France still owned Algeria it would look just like Gaza does now. So would an Italian Abyssinia...
Re: Indoctrination - [info]mikisit - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 12:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Indoctrination - [info]maigoro - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 02:53 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Indoctrination - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:15 am (UTC) Expand
Gaza Genocide
[info]philipshahak wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 01:33 pm (UTC)
Hundreds of lawyers specialising in International law are queuing up to bring prosecutions against the war criminals of the Israeli government. They will be hunted down in the same way that the Nazi war criminals were hunted down by the Jews.
Re: Gaza Genocide
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:48 pm (UTC)
Of course, I bet none of those lawyers want to do anything about insane islamic terrorists who wage nonstop war on other countries and launch daily rocket attacks against civilian populations
Fairness
[info]ehross wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:06 pm (UTC)
There is only one issue of importance here and that is

"When will the World insist on the Palestinians right to return to their homes/homeland".
Re: Fairness
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:40 pm (UTC)
Oh, you're one of those ridiculous people who thinks that refugees from 1948 are magically going to get their homes back? The answer is never, just like the 800,000 Jews who fled from Arab countries in the mid 1900's aren't getting their homes back, either.

It's 2008. Get a grip on reality. Israel exists, and it isn't shutting down, contrary to the manic dreams of many Independent columnists and readers.
Re: Fairness - [info]thisismatty - Saturday, 24 January 2009 at 12:06 am (UTC) Expand
Pat Cockburn and the other dishonest anti-Israel columnists here are the ones detached from reality
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:35 pm (UTC)
If you'd like an actual realistic, honest, sane view of recent events, rather than the dishonest, exaggerated, biased, anti-Israel froth that comes from fools like Cockburn, read this Jerusalem Post article:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292929480&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Detached from reality are idiots who refuse to recognize that Hamas have sworn to destroy Israel
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 04:44 pm (UTC)
and want to spend the next billion years leading the Palestinians to idiotic, self-defeating, pointless attacks on Israel. THe day that the Palestinian leadership, with majority support, declares a permanent peace with Israel is the day that peace comes. You can yell and scream against Israel all you want, but as long as lunatic Palestinian extremists are obsessed with attacking Israel and refusing to even recognize Israel's existence, the conflict will continue.

As for Gaza, if they didn't want to get smacked down like they just did, they should maybe have not fired thousands of rockets into Israel every day for the last few years.

Israel hasn't attacked the west bank lately. Why? Because the west bank isn't firing rockets into Israel.

And if the palestinians ever declare a permanent peace with israel, Israel will pass control of those areas over to people.
Re: Detached from reality are idiots who refuse to recognize that Hamas have sworn to destroy Israel
[info]anti_zionist wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 05:43 pm (UTC)
Its said that nearly 1500 Palestinians, most of them civilians, had to die for the world to realise how big of a terrorist israel really is, but what goes around, comes around, we helped them and they spat in our faces so its time for the world to stand up to israel and remove them from power.
I am happy how everyone has realised how evil israel really is now thanks to their bloody actions they can see that no one really likes them anymore
Nazi Israeli War Criminals and how we can beat Israel.
[info]fumanchuria wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC)
There is clearly a ground swell of World wide shock and indignation about the offensive and Fascist Israeli government's action in Gaza as well as many other places and times. Yes, the Israeli war Criminals from Gaza and elsewhere should be indicted and pursued by all mean possible to put them in the dock, just like the Nazi War Criminals were. That will probably mean that these Israeli villains will stay inside Israel and/or the USA, although it wouldn't be the first time that an airliner has been made to land to capture somebody travelling on it.
What people need to do is to DISINVEST in and BOYCOTT all things ISRAELI or having an Israeli connection. Please look to the PSC (Palestine Solidarity Campaign) for details and think of giving aid to INTERPAL.
I have no connection with any faction in the Middle East just a disillusioned Englishman who wants my government and the EU to denounce Israeli atrocities.
Lots of propaganda
[info]dicksonator wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 05:33 pm (UTC)
To exec-ceo,

You are an example of all that is wrong with Israel. For setting such an great example, you should be commended.

What you write about the Palestinians not wanting to recognise Israel's right to exist is nonsense, as many commentators (surprisingly not Israeli or US) have long made clear, and democratically elected Hamas has been seeking a two-state solution for some time. The US has helped Israel block this repeatedly. The truth is out there, take off your blinkers.

The real problem is Israeli, who just can't wait to get their hands on the West Bank, while maintaining a Gazan concentration camp (term used deliberately).

The quote below is one of many that can be found;

"I believed, and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land," Prime Minister Olmert

So stop invading Palestine and your problems will be solved, directly killing (war), indirectly killing (though only just) through the siege unleashed on Gaza and harassing them will not work. Leave the land you have stolen, THEN you'll have peace - but you don't dare want that eh?

I thought this was clear to everyone with any morality or common sense.
Re: Lots of propaganda
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:18 am (UTC)
Hamas have not been seeking a two-state solution for some time. Hamas calls for Israel's destruction and considers every single inch of Israel to be "occupied" land. They want one state, an islamic one, and Jews and Israel dead or gone.
Re: Lots of propaganda - [info]famulla - Saturday, 24 January 2009 at 02:42 pm (UTC) Expand
I see that AIPAC/Israeli apologists are out in force.
[info]fumanchuria wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 05:35 pm (UTC)
How can these morally bankrupt types support Nazis in the racist and apartheid state of Israel with such aplomb? The IDF are a cowardly bunch of delinquents and we know what they do, shoot unarmed babies, children and women waving whit flags.
Their day will come; hopefully when they stand in front of a judge, if not THE JUDGE, but it might be when the World finally has enough of their ant Semitic whining and they get the comprehensive thrashing they so richly deserve. Unfortunately, it is likely that many fine Jewish/Israeli people will also get hurt.
Hypocrites Memorial Day
[info]tomhmacf wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 05:48 pm (UTC)
This is the day that was instituted to ensure continuing guilt about the holocaust silences even the most moderate criticism of the Zionist state which was founded on Irgun terror.

In that context, it should not perhaps surprise us that it was OK to use phosphorous, and tungsten-based weaponry on civilians in Gaza.

Most interesting of all is the fact that no one seems to have noticed that the IRA bombing campaign of the 1970s did not provoke RAF raids on Derry - or Dublin (when Charles Haughey was openly supporting the PIRA). Nor were tanks used. The force used was proportionate to the threat.

British soldiers did not hide in tanks, emerging to open fire on children. We leave that sort of atrocity to people who picked up their ideas about warfare in Warsaw in 1944.
The ranting anti-israel people
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 06:07 pm (UTC)
You ranting, frothing, anti-israel loons are funny. If you support the palestinians having freedom, you should urge them to stop supporting insane islamic fundamentalists who have sworn to continue their eternal war on israel's very existence as a jewish state. You should also wonder why Kuwait kicked 400,000 palestinians out in the early 1990's, you should wonder why the hundreds of thousands of palestinains who live in Lebanon are still treated like unwanted 'refugees' even though it's been 60 years now, you should wonder why the 80% of Palestine which became Jordan wants nothing to do with them, and why they continue to care more about attacking israel than being sane and reasonable. Gaza kept firing rockets into israel, so gaza was attacked. The West bank hasn't been attacking Israel, so the west bank isn't being attacked. And if Palestinians, via their leadership and majority, ever declare a permanent peace with israel, this whole thing will end and both sides will have peace, just like israel has with egypt, just like israel has with jordan.
Re: The ranting anti-israel people
[info]oldskald wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:10 pm (UTC)
Sorry mate, but I think you've inadvertantly shown the true face of Zionism here. You correctly point out that Israel was founded in 1948 as a Jewish state. Let's note the religious dimension in that statement. A Jewish state. So the Jews in Israel are in control. They will stay in control. It will be run for them. Forget anyone else who may be there - they are unimportant. Sadly, the Jewish state decided to appropriate the choice resources for themselves. It was they, during the late 1990s, that extended the settlements in contravention of international agrreements they themselves signed up to, stalling on a deal with moderate Palestinian voices, that left them then facing the radicals. Many Palestinians seem to feel that they have no choice but to violently resist Israel. This may be morally wrong but in the current climate is it understandable? Put yourself in their place; what would YOU do? Israel has the de facto power, the tanks, the jets, the helicopters. They have the power to make peace, but they are obstructive. Why? Security must be an issue, but is another issue the consequent loss of "power", the potential loss of the best resources? The hideous realisation that they may actually be forced to share in more than just name?

Finally, to make something abundantly clear: I am not an anti-semite. To make it clearer, I am not anti-Jewish or anti-Arab (both largely Semitic peoples). I am anti-Israel and will remain so until Israelis can admit that their state was founded on terrorism, and has treated the Palestinians as, at best, second class for sixty years, and then offers them some meaningful redress. Having said that, I see no value in rocket attacks and suicide bombings on discos, coffee bars and bus stations. Yet neither do I see value in white phosphorous and tungsten bombs, and flattening the homes of people who have next to nothing, let alone setting UN compounds full of humanitarian supplies ablaze. Peaceful civil disobedience can achieve so much more...
Re: The ranting anti-israel people - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: The ranting anti-israel people - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: The ranting anti-israel people - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:26 am (UTC) Expand
Well said Tom; the hypocrisy of the Israeli Nazis is staggering.
[info]fumanchuria wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 06:36 pm (UTC)
I would like to attend the Holocaust Remembrance Day, mainly to show even handedness as I always support demonstrations against the Nazi occupation of Palestine by the Israelis; BUT, the hypocrisy of some Israelis and Jews is mind boggling and would probably make it very difficult because it is impossible to debate sensibly with MORONS who just will not accept the most obvious of facts.
We MUST bring their ATROCITIES to book and BOYCOTT ALL ISRAELI COMPANIES everywhere.
Check out the PSC and INTERPAL sites.
Re: Well said Tom; the hypocrisy of the dishonest anti-israel loons
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:19 pm (UTC)
Israel wants peace with its neighbors. As long as the people on the palestinian areas keep trying to attack and destroy Israel, there won't be peace. There is nothing 'racist' about it. Stop attacking israel, then there will be peace. If you care about the palestinians, convince them to stop supporting irrational, psychotic, lunatic religious fundamentalists.
exec_ceo you're a mindless bigot; FACE THE TRUTH.
[info]fumanchuria wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 07:18 pm (UTC)
GET OFF THEIR LAND YOU MORON; ISRAEL WAS SET UP ON THE BACK OF TERRORISM, THEY INVENTED IT. THE IRGUN AND STERN GANG ARE SYNONYMOUS WITH COWARDLY ACTS AND THE IDF HAVE FOLLOWED THEIR EXAMPLE.
GET OFF PALESTINIAN LANDS;
STOP BULLYING EVERYBODY;
STOP IMMOLATING AND KILLING DEFENCELESS WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AND MEN AS WELL.
Re: exec_ceo you're a mindless bigot; FACE THE TRUTH.
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 08:17 pm (UTC)
Israel won the west bank and gaza from egypt and jordan. Israel will give full control of all of gaza and most of the west bank over to palestinians when palestinians declare a permanent peace with the Jewish state of Israel. As long as the Palestinian leadership and much of the palestinian population supports destroying Israel, undoing Israel, not recognizing Israel's existence, or attacking Israel in any way, it is SILLY and IRRATIONAL to expect Israel to hand land or control away.

Deal with reality.
Re: exec_ceo you're a mindless bigot; FACE THE TRUTH. - [info]racehorseluva - Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 09:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: exec_ceo you're a mindless bigot; FACE THE TRUTH. - [info]exec_ceo - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:24 am (UTC) Expand
Hardening
[info]yambas wrote:
Thursday, 22 January 2009 at 11:33 pm (UTC)
I am afraid that Israel is becoming more paranoid about it's neighbours and will ultimately use the nuclear weapon.
the truth
[info]truthneverdies wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 01:26 am (UTC)
I like the ways the pro israeli 's have to attack everyone who speaks the truth. Ultimately if you blockade a population of 1.5 million as punishment for voting Hamas and then don't like rockets, you must stop the blockade. You are treating the crime not the causes of the crime; which is your blockade as collective punishment. Pro Israeli's will alway distort the truth and this is a long term historical norm. The best way is not to rise to it. Most people can see how the poor palestinians have been slaughtered and the lies and excuses used to portray this as a two way conflict. Israel started the slaughter and stopped the slaughter. It is still firing from the sea to provoke more Hamas rocket fire so that it can blame Hamas for breaking it's unilateral ceasefire. The vast majority of the western press would say Hamas breached the ceasefire, even though it was not party to it! This is the same game played by Israel for 60 years. to play it does need support from The US and EU and many of the media in these countries. The general populations can't be bothered, hence the status quo and slaughter continues.............
No meaning for the "anti-Semitic" argument!!!
[info]power_of_facts wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 02:45 am (UTC)
The "anti-Semitic" argument never made any sense and still doesn't. Both Arabs and Jews are "Semites" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic#Ancient_Semitic_peoples.... This means that anyone voicing his/her opinion either way would be "siding" with "Semites" against "Semites". Isn't it about time to drop this "non-sense" argument?
Re: No meaning for the "anti-Semitic" argument!!!
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
Try opening a dictionary someday and seeing what the term "anti-semite" is understood to mean. If you aren't too busy cheering palestinian terrorists on, that is.
Re: No meaning for the "anti-Semitic" argument!!! - [info]maigoro - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 05:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: No meaning for the "anti-Semitic" argument!!! - [info]power_of_facts - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 10:39 pm (UTC) Expand
Anti-semites
[info]jlee3793 wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 05:31 am (UTC)
Let's all just admit that the word doesn't mean anything any more. It's used to describe anything and everything and anyone who might comments about the Zionists the jews and Israel and who isn't a member of their "race." Where is George Carlin when we need him? Remember back in the 70's (was it?) that he had his routine on words you couldn't say. So of course he said them over and over and over and after a while they just turned into sounds without meaning. That's what has happened with the word anti-semite. It has been used for so long in so many inappropriate ways that it is simply meaningless today. Go ahead call Cockburn, Fisk, Said, Hari and the rest of the world anti-semites. In fact let's say it again. And again. Even if they are all raging anti-semites it still doesn't mean anything anymore. Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite, Anti-semite ...
Re: Anti-semites
[info]exec_ceo wrote:
Friday, 23 January 2009 at 08:07 am (UTC)
It still has a clear meaning. It means people who discriminate against Jews because they're Jewish. And the way many of you rabid anti-israel freaks exaggerate so much against Israel leads some to conclude that you're only doing it because Israel is connected to Jews.
Re: Anti-semites - [info]power_of_facts - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 03:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Anti-semites - [info]deji0 - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 04:07 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Anti-semites - [info]isnado1 - Friday, 23 January 2009 at 06:26 pm (UTC) Expand
Page 1 of 2
<<[1] [2] >>

Columnist Comments

brian_viner

Brian Viner: Sorry, Roy, but Ireland played like superstars

It would be nice if Roy Keane could show some generosity of spirit.

christina_patterson

Christina Patterson: What we learn from the Sikh in the BNP

For ethnic harmony, you can go the route of a Tito or a Saddam Hussein.

andrew_grice

Andrew Grice: Blair beaten, but a coup for PM nonetheless

Mr Blair would have loved to become a powerful figurehead for Europe.


Loading...


Most popular in Opinion