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Rupert Cornwell: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

Barack Obama has committed America to the long haul in Afghanistan – but heavy losses and mounting dissent are forcing him to consider turning the strategy on its head

Public support for the war in Afghanistan is dropping sharply in the US

AFP/GETTY IMAGES

Public support for the war in Afghanistan is dropping sharply in the US

Six months after proclaiming a new commitment to the war in Afghanistan, President Barack Obama is under growing pressure to make what would amount to a U-turn in US policy and scale back America's commitment to a conflict that many experts – and a majority of the public – now fear may be unwinnable.

The debate, which divides Mr Obama's most senior advisers, was thrown into stark relief by the leaked report of General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of US and allied forces in Afghanistan, warning that the war might be lost within a year without a further boost in troop strength and a major change in strategy to combat the spreading Taliban insurgency.

General McChrystal's bleak assessment coupled with Washington's frustration with the Afghan leader Hamid Karzai and the fraud-ridden election over which he presided, has reignited a rift between Vice-President Joseph Biden and Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State, over how the war should be waged. It has also left Mr Obama facing a fateful choice: whether to go along with his generals and send yet more troops, or stand current policy on its head.

Spoken or unspoken, behind the debate lurks the shade of Vietnam. It emerged yesterday that The Washington Post, the first to report General McChrystal's devastating 66-page memorandum, agreed to delay publication by 24 hours, omitting elements relating to future tactics that the Pentagon and White House said might endanger American troops on the front lines in Afghanistan.

Bob Woodward, the paper's investigative reporter, who broke the story, compares the document to the secret history of the Vietnam war that caused a sensation when it was obtained in 1971 by The New York Times. The so-called Pentagon Papers "came out eight years too late," Mr Woodward says.

The stakes are now huge – so huge that the President barely mentioned Afghanistan in his address to the United Nations General Assembly yesterday. If Washington is perceived as opposing a further troop build-up, or leaning towards a reduction, then other countries in the coalition, where the eight-year-long war is even more unpopular than here, will rush for the exits.

Hitherto, the issue of the war in Afghanistan has seemed straightforward. In contrast to Iraq, Afghanistan has been the "good war" – a war of necessity, fought to make sure that a repeat of the 9/11 attacks, directed from Afghanistan by an al-Qa'ida sheltered by the Taliban, would never occur again.

Underlining this reinvigorated commitment, Mr Obama authorised an increase in US strength in Afghanistan to 68,000 by the end of the year, and named General McChrystal, previously in charge of US special forces, as his new commander on the ground. But the latter's recommendation of a boost of 30,000 to 40,000 confronts this president with a dilemma akin to that facing his predecessor over Iraq three years ago: to surge or not to surge? And views within the administration differ sharply.

Essentially the choice, in strategic jargon, is between counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency. The latter, implying a broad war against the Taliban to prevent it returning to power, seems to be what General McChrystal has in mind, and has long been backed by Mrs Clinton. Only this week, she had scathing words for those who argued that al-Qa'ida was no longer a factor in Afghanistan. "If Afghanistan is taken over again by the Taliban, I can't tell you how fast al-Qa'ida would be back."

The Vice-President, on the other hand, wants a narrower focus on al-Qa'ida itself, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where security forces have scored some important recent successes against the terrorist organisation and its Taliban allies. Under this approach, the US would require fewer forces in the field.

Instead of trying to protect the general population from the Taliban and operating a "hearts and minds" policy to win over civilian support, it would concentrate on targeted strikes on al-Qa'ida operatives, relying on umnanned drones, missile attacks and the special forces where General McChrystal is an expert. Simultaneously the training of Afghan government forces would be speeded up.

A third faction advocates a compromise, either scaling back the requested troop increase, or even starting to reverse it, while at the same time ensuring that the country does not collapse into chaos.

The White House and Pentagon are now studying the report, and it will be "weeks" before a decision is made, administration officials say. But Mr Obama, once so trenchant on the subject, is now hedging his bets. All options are on the table, he indicated during his blitz of the Sunday talk shows last weekend. "The first question is, are we doing the right thing?" he told CNN.

As it is, public support for the conflict is dropping sharply, too. According to a Wall Street Journal/NBC poll yesterday, 59 per cent of those surveyed were now "less confident" that the US could achieve a successful end to the war. More than half opposed an increase in American forces, while a third wanted an immediate pullout.

This growing pessimism is visible on Capitol Hill, too. Earlier this month, Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, warned that neither Capitol Hill nor ordinary voters are in the mood for sending more soldiers to a war that has already taken almost 900 American lives – and 51 in August alone. Then Michigan's Carl Levin, chairman of the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee, declared that the US should send no more troops before a "surge" in Afghan security forces. But as even Pentagon officials concede, training Afghan forces up to the required standard of competence – not to mention loyalty – will be even more difficult than it was in Iraq.

Complicating matters further, Congressional leadersare now demanding a personal accounting from General McChrystal on how the war is going. For the moment Robert Gates, the Defense Secretary, has resisted the pressure, insisting the commander will only appear on Capitol Hill when a new policy has been decided. But if US casualties continue to grow, he may have little choice in the matter. In the meantime, Mr Obama is increasingly in a corner.

As Republicans constantly remind him, for the US to wind down its commitment would send a message of weakness and inconsistency to friends and foes alike. But to press on with a long, inconclusive war in a distant corner of Asia carries well-known and equal perils.

Once again, events are bearing out the famous aphorism of Mark Twain, that "while history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes".

What would happen if he changed course now?

Joel Brinkley, US foreign correspondent, author, and academic

For most Americans now, Vietnam isn't a particularly powerful image. But policy- makers in charge now had some sort of role in Vietnam; and in Congress the lessons of recent history lay pretty heavily. I'm not sure America is at breaking point, but it does seem as if there is a heated discussion within the administration. Obama is a realist. He inherited this war and he proffered an approach that would reprioritise Afghanistan. But I think he's realised that it's probably too late.

Julian Thompson, Ex-Marines commander

The problem with switching to countering al-Qa'ida will be Pakistan, who will say: thank you, but we're not all that keen on having you guys operating in our patch. Perhaps if you're the US government you say you don't care, but that makes it much more difficult to sell. In a sense we're back to where we were in 2001. You can pour in more troops, but you have no guarantee of success. But I honestly don't see it as being parallel to Vietnam. In that situation, America was alone. Here, one of the most crucial things is for them to persuade Nato to share the load.

Karin von Hippel, Post-conflict expert

I think ultimately they'll give McChrystal what he needs – he's their man. But first they will have a debate. Before Iraq we didn't have a public debate, and Obama's very conscious of repeating that mistake. He knows he needs to regain waning support. Don't forget that this approach is basically what Obama said would happen in March, when he was trying to dampen expectations – and at the same time on the ground things were ratcheting up. At the moment, there's confusion out there.

Tim Cross, Major General (Retired)

The question is, what is the strategic intention in Afghanistan? Is it to enable the emergence of a democratic and stable nation? If that has been the intent, then this would be a serious change. It suggests that our intent is purely to deal with a perceived terrorist threat – but I'm not convinced that is right. So far, the UK has emphasised a comprehensive approach, using our non-military as well as military capability. And if Obama's approach changes, the UK would have to rethink its commitment.

More from Rupert Cornwell

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I don't give a flying *fart* what O'Bomber has decided, he can go to HELL
[info]luka_kuzmich wrote:
Wednesday, 23 September 2009 at 11:24 pm (UTC)

It's not Britain's job to bail-out some idiot yankee warmonger when he gets in over his head. Obama wants to send yankee troops to Afghanistan? Fine, I hope each single one of them comes home DEAD.

When did Britain become the 51st State? Why do British soldiers have to go and work as mercenaries in this yankee atrocity??? With British tax-payers picking up the bill?

O'Bomber can go to hell in a handcart, with his stinking yankee war. Time Britain grew a SPINE and got out of this illegal and barbaric conflict. Time to show the yankee retard SCUM the middle digit, Close their Embassy and throw that fat lump of lard off the White Cliffs of Dover.
(no subject) - [info] - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 12:11 am (UTC) Expand
More incompetence from "progressives"
[info]funkonaut wrote:
Wednesday, 23 September 2009 at 11:31 pm (UTC)
Every Democratic candidate for President ran on a platform of ending the war in Iraq claiming it was a "distraction" from the real war in Afghanistan. They vowed to "redeploy" the troops from Iraq and back into Afghanistan to "win the war" and find Osama Bin Laden.

Now they're going to pull out of Afghanistan. So they either lied about their determination or they're just plain incompetence. (The latter wouldn't surprise me since most Socialists have never had jobs outside of government.)
POOP OR GET OFF THE POT
[info]blabberface wrote:
Wednesday, 23 September 2009 at 11:45 pm (UTC)
bring them home or give them what they need....quit playing politics with our armed forces....they have been abused quite enough!!!
(no subject) - [info] - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 12:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War
[info]rossolimo wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:22 am (UTC)
The Taliban were not responsible for 9/11. Remember, even the official story says they were all Saudis. And how do you explain the fact that the Taliban only came to power in the first place because the American government, along with a few other international governments supported them? Groundhog Day. Why was Saddam Hussein there? Because it suited America for a time. Why did the Taliban get to government? Because it suited America for a time. Why was Saddam attacked? Because it suited America for a time. Why is the Taliban now the bad guys (however unpleasant they may be they were just as unpleasant when the Americans backed them into government in the first place)? Because it suits America.
Which other nation has the Taliban attacked? None. Which other nation has America attacked? Let me count. Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Palestine (through Israeli proxies), Lebanon (through Israeli proxies), Syria (through Israeli proxies), various South American countries etc. etc.
On the world stage which country in the past century has been the major attacker? Right. The USA. Hardly surprising that most people in the world consider the US to be the greatest threat to world peace.
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]martin44 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]ancientoneuk - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:33 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 05:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]nutty16 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:47 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 08:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 08:16 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]corporeal_v002 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:40 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Win the Afgan War - [info]vhawk1951 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC) Expand
Obama the man of Many WORDS AND NO BALLS !!
[info]usagirl2009xx wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 01:07 am (UTC)
Obama is over his head ....everyone knows it except Obama and the Chicago THUGS he brought to Washington D.C !!

HE HAS MADE A MESS OF EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS HAD HIS HANDS ON !!

Obama is a JOKE not only in the USA but on the World Stage as well !!

HE IS DANGEROUS BECAUSE HE IS SO NAIVE !!

Sit back all Nations .....and get ready for another Jimmy Carter but this one with ARROGANCE !!
Win the War
[info]longun45 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 01:11 am (UTC)
Or get out. It's that simple. Make a choice and then back that choice.

But get all of the facts, get goals clearly defined, and stop the cruel rules that plague our troops.

The Taliban goal is nuclear weapons in Pakistan. They are currently financed by extortion and drugs. You do not negotiate with them.
US military victories since 1945?
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 01:41 am (UTC)
Of course the US are going to lose in Afghanistan, just look at their activities since 1945.

Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, Haiti are all examples where the US committed ground troops, received casualties and went home in defeat.

The first Gulf War left Saddam Hussein in power and the second led to the de facto partition of the country and increased the influence of Iran in the region.

In Afghanistan today the US is in the familiar position of supporting a corrupt politician who has rigged an election to give the semblance of democracy. That is the realiy of eight years of war and billions of dollars spent.
Re: US military victories since 1945?
[info]fourechodog wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:11 am (UTC)
When the Muslims push you out of what's left of your country and you need help; call France. Twice in one century is enough, you don't want us loosers around anyway...
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]mannygoldstein - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:40 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]fourechodog - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]ancientoneuk - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:47 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]rossolimo - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]ancientoneuk - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:43 am (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]dubld - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 05:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: US military victories since 1945? - [info]van_nostrand - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Impossible to win
[info]rossolimo wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:17 am (UTC)
Cut and run is the only answer. You cannot win a war of occupation in the modern age. The only way it was ever done in the past was to kill the inhabitants and colonise with your own. That, thankfully is no longer possible.
Whatever fantasies the 'invaders' may have the reality is that American led forces invaded Afghanistan and continue to occupy it through the use of a puppet government. For anyone who does not think that is the truth then ask any Afghan other than those who are a part of the stooge government.
The Afghans will win because they have time and right on their side. No army has ever defeated a resistance movement and never will. The Afghans are fighting for the land and their lives and the occupiers are fighting for government lies and propaganda. Who do you think derives the greatest moral, emotional, psychological and physical strength from the fight? Those who are occupied of course. Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians and even the Tibetans will triumph because such immoral wars make them stronger.
Sorry?
[info]famulla wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:24 am (UTC)
Stay and fight – or cut and run?
Barack Obama has committed America to the long haul in Afghanistan – but heavy losses and mounting dissent are forcing him to consider turning the strategy on its head
The issue most dear to many participants, but not to us civilians, is the future global financial architecture. Should the G-20 become a permanent steering committee for the global economy, replacing the old G-8? Should the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank be given new responsibilities and be forced to give greater governing power to the emerging new economies, especially China, India and Brazil? Should they meet more often? Less often? Never again in Pittsburgh? There might be some signs of progress on this issue, with at least lip service given to the new entrants in the global picture. But of course the real question is whether any of these groups will ever have any power to do anything about the global economy, as opposed to rearranging the deck chairs on the international financial institutions that failed to foresee the crisis this time around.
The main issue. The men are the economies and not the guns and tanks. Some politicians sitting in the A/C rooms like to talk of pointing fingers and all are pointing one to another.
UN speech going on now from G2, G4, G8 , G20 going to G100???
FORT RILEY, Kansas (CNN) -- They are lined up neatly, but casually, waiting to be outfitted for another trip to the place they call "The Sand Box." Snug new undershirts to wear under a newer, updated combat protective vest. New desert fatigues, even new battlefield identification cards. Several stops along the way, and then at the end of the line a briefing on how the new vest works -- and how it is different from the one many of these soldiers wore on their last deployment.
Yes, the United States is in the early stages of its plan to withdraw its combat troops from Iraq by the end of August 2010. But rotations still mean more troops are needed, and as Fort Riley prepares to welcome one unit home from Iraq in the days ahead, another is preparing to head out. "I hate to say we get used to it, but we know it is part and parcel, and so we just accept it," Tricia Verschage said in an interview on base this week. "And we meet it as a challenge."
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla

We Broke it We Bought it
[info]martin44 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:35 am (UTC)
So until Afghanistan and ISAF troop and other resource contributing nations and UNAMA can get reparations from Bin Laden himself for starting the war it is not up to us to effectively walk out on the people of Afghanistan (who want a satisfactory end to this including by the defeat of the Taliban and a final end to the war).

It's also slightly offensive of Julian Thompson to say that America was alone in Vietnam and must rely on NATO in Afghanistan. As an Australian I know that many Australians fought bravely and died in Vietnam and around 1,500 are also fighting or contributing mainly in southern Afghanistan while Italians, Germans and Spaniards prefer not to venture into fighting zones of the country.
Here We Go Again
[info]il_767 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:50 am (UTC)


counter-insurgency. The latter, implying a broad war against the Taliban to prevent it returning to power, seems to be what General McChrystal has in mind

It's also what Obama had in mind when he replaced McKiernan with McChrystal last spring. McChrystal's report is no more than taking that directed policy change and translating it into actual requirements.

Now Obama wants to stall & study it to death which just sends (more) signals of weakness to the enemy, not to mention the parallels with LBJ's disastrous dithering post-Tet.

All the while the soldiers on the ground will be in greater danger because of the politicians.
Afghanistan
[info]sadie_kate_08 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:47 am (UTC)
The problem with our so called leaders is that they don't enter a war to win it anymore. They pussyfoot around and let the "bad guys" off the hook. I say, do it right or get the hell out and quit putting our men and women in harms way!
Re: Afghanistan
[info]matt_91912113 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:58 am (UTC)
No it isn't, they enter into wars with the poorest most vunerable countries in the world to steal their wealth. They parade around armed to the teeth covered in body armour and when they encounter ANY resistance from the improverished locals they call in a massive air strike where a man sitting in a plane 30,000 feet above them drops tonnes of explosives on the peasants below. Hardly the definition of bravery is it?
Re: Afghanistan - [info]van_nostrand - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:12 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Afghanistan - [info]matt_91912113 - Friday, 25 September 2009 at 08:03 am (UTC) Expand
Politicians never learn because they don't want to
[info]elevengoalposts wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:52 am (UTC)
Forget the stark differences with the Vietnam war, but see the similarities.
Before the onset of Afghanistan, many warnings were given from a whole spectrum of experts to sensible, ordinary people. All people who had knowledge and experience, and weren't seduced by the power provided by the relationship with the Bush administration.
Objectors were ridiculed and humiliated - giving succour to enemies was a recent commentary (by that idiot, Foulkes), but was at least an implicit view of this government for this whole decade.
Vietnam escalated and escalated, militarily. Dire warnings were given continuously about the consequences of withdrawal. Chicken Little went hoarse with his cries. Then, what happened? I wouldn't call it a "cut-and-run" - it was a necessity and an inevitability in the end.
But when politicians have painted themselves into a corner, with a contractor operating to keeping painting around the clock, they will never change direction. In their stupidity and self-preservation, they've forever persuaded themselves about a humiliation which will follow if they change tack. The loss of life and permanent damage done by continuing means nothing to them compared with their own personal consideration. Excuse after unsupportable, illogical excuse is always trotted out, mantra fashion, until the current situation arises.
What's that? It's that the majority simply stop listening to the government and await their opportunity to evict them at the next election. They do not want to know what they propose about anything - they've made up their minds that incompetence and dissembling, combined with hubris, has become intolerable.
Politicians never learn because they don't want to - EDIT
[info]elevengoalposts wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:11 am (UTC)
Sorry, I called Chicken Little "him"...meant "her" - must edit better!
War on Terror, Afghanistan, and the Narcotics Trade
[info]regaleagle12 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:30 am (UTC)
The United States seems to be losing ground against the narcotics cartel of Al Queda and the Taliban.
Afghanistan provides 93% of the globes heroin product and while under U.S. military occupation increased substantially even bypassing Columbia as a record distributor. The Pharmacuetical industry relies heavily on the poppy crop that provides opium used in a wide variety of medications now in use. The United States is the biggest consumer of illicit drugs as well as the pharmacuetical variety. Afghanistan is big business, it would allow the United States and probably Britain to have firm control over the illicit drug trade and utilize this cash crop for pharmacuetical production and distribution resulting in a double profit margin. The War on Terror is a front for the C.I.A. and their mercenary affiliates such as Blackwater (Xe) to control the distribution and transport of narcotics into Europe, Asia, and the United States. A loss of control in Afghanistan is a good thing, it would mean our soldiers could return home and no longer give their lives to benefit the largest drug dealers on the planet that being the U.S. and U.K. governments exclusively.
(no subject) - [info] - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:32 am (UTC)
Re: luka stupidkuzmich
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:49 am (UTC)
Keep taking the tablets mate...
Get out now
[info]johnnywi wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 04:58 am (UTC)
Obama should just get out of both Afganistan and Iraq. He would have the support of most americans. It will never happen. His Israeli handlers run him with tight reins. We must fight endless war against anyone Israel deems a threat. That means at present Iran and Pakistan. Iran because it has a lot of potential for leadership of the Persian Gulf. Pakistan because it has dozens of atomic weapons.
Get out now
[info]niroses wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:13 am (UTC)
Get out now and save your asses ..................... more you wait more coprpses will come as gifts from Talaban to the orphaned American children .... what do Americans gain by bombing the poorest of the poor Afghan civilians ..... hundreds at a time ..... let them live their own way ... if Amazonians are left to live naked in their tribal lands why don't you let the Afghans live with their bodies covered ...... what is the logic ..... what did the children deserve to be orphaned in America or in Afghanistan ..... isn't this a brutal savage occupation by criminals ..... what did Afghans do on 911 .... though it was the work of Dick Cheney and CIA .... let us assume it was a conspiracy by Muslims ..... but not one Afghan was implicated in it .... but all 19 of the supposed suspects were Saudis or Egyptions ..... why didn't America attack Saudi and Egypt ...... do you see where the fault is ..... hope the Americans will be wiser from now on .....
9/11 nonsense again, and again, and again, and again
[info]someofusknow wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 05:57 am (UTC)
'Afghanistan has been the "good war" – a war of necessity, fought to make sure that a repeat of the 9/11 attacks'

How much longer are we going to be subjectedf to this drivel about 9/11?

The evidence is irrefutable that 9/11 was an inside job, a false flag operation designed to make suckers of the American people and the world, and provide a pretext for invasions to control oil supplies.
Re: 9/11 nonsense again, and again, and again, and again
[info]niroses wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:44 am (UTC)
The twin towers were demolished by controlled demolition. If a tower collapsed due to its beams failed then there wouldn't be debris flying upwards like dust ..... explosions took place floor by floor as confirmed by the fire fighters ..... There was no Boeing 767 fallen at Pentagon ..... why wouldn't US Govt produce one of the surveilance vedio clips of the tens of cameras pointing to the location of the crash .... they used to boast that every inch of Pentagon was under surveilance .... so produce one picture of the fateful huge 767 flight which left no debris outside. They even said the plave evaporated... wow what a lame excuse.... but why .... simply produce one vedio and prove to us that it was the Boeng .... then let us look in to the other evidences ..This one single point is sufficient to prove the case against Dick and Bush ..... along with Robert Juliani ..... the master minds of this conspiracy ... which cost the Muslim world a million and a half innocent lives .... and rapes and torture .... but Allah will bring them all to justice .... insha Allah ....
Re: 9/11 nonsense again, and again, and again, and again - [info]il_767 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 02:36 pm (UTC) Expand
It's all about Israel
[info]drjinnah wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 06:29 am (UTC)

After PNAC/Israel attacked the US on 9/11, GW Bush and his Israel Firster handlers had to lash out at someone as they had not fabricated the evidence at the time to attack Iraq.
I can't believe that people are unaware that Bush and Cheney were part of an organisation controlled by fanatical Zionists who planned to use the US to fight Israel's wars in the Middle east and even further afield - just read "A Clean Break".
When Bush launched his "Crusade" against Islam/Israel's enemies, he let the cat out of the bag. The US were never going to win in Afghanistan or Iraq because the American people know in their hearts that these are unjust wars just as was Vietnam. The difference, this time is that instead of dying to stop communism, our troops are dying for Zionism - the racist ideology that states that Jews are superior to Gentiles and Gentiles have to be cleansed from Eretz (Greater) Israel.
Israel's tentacles have a stranglehold on the U.S. and increasingly on other Western powers, especially Canada and the U.K.
Remember Benjamin Notayuman's comment when asked what he thought of 9/11? "Its very good. It will create immediate sympathy for Israel". Go figure, as our American cousins say.
Vietnam parallels
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:00 am (UTC)
Vietnam was attacked to prevent Southeast Asian states from falling "like dominos" under Soviet and Chinese influence. Result: The only domino that fell was Cambodia, but only with the help and blessing of the US, to the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. By then Nixon had made friends with Mao and turned China and the USSR against each other. China also unsuccessfully attempted to invade Vietnam after the US defeat.

Afghanistan was invaded to "eliminate al Qaeda." It turned out that al Qaeda was actually the name of a CIA database of international jihadis used by the US to attack its enemies, principally the Soviet Union. Moreover, as India knew well before 9-11, the center of Jihadi terrorism was Pakistan, a US ally, and not Afghanistan, which was then merely a Pak colony controlled by the Pak-indoctrinated Taliban and the ISI. While the Yanks got bogged down in Afghanistan, Jihadi terrorism continued unabated from Pakistan, based mostly in Pak-occupied Kashmir, notably with sophisticated 9-11-type coordinated attacks in Madrid, London, and Mumbai. Jihadism also spread from Saudi Arabia, another US ally (and one that funded Pak terrorism), to Iraq, from where Jihadi terrorist attacked Istanbul (just after the Turks refused to allow the US to invade Iraq from their territory). The US "war on terror" spread terrorism and chaos everywhere.

The Yanks used the fabicated "Gulf of Tonkin incident" to invade Vietnam.

The Yanks used the unproven allegation that a rogue Saudi CIA agent hiding in a cave in Afghanistan ordered the 9-11 attacks to invade the country. Shortly after the 9-11 attacks, it looked like a toss-up between Afghanistan and Iraq, as Cheney and Wolfowitz pushed hard to pin the attacks on Saddam, but the Afghanistan option prevailed in the end. It was later revealed that the Yanks had, early in 2001, threatened to shower the Taliban with "a carpet of bombs" should they continue to refuse to accept the construction of a strategic gas pipeline through Afghanistan. The Pak foreign minister Niaz Naik revealed that when the "6+2" meetings in Berlin in July 2001 between the Taliban, the US, Russia, and Pakistan fell through, the US openly stated its intention to attack the country "in mid-October at the latest, before the first snowfall." In the same month that the Berlin meeting was being held, the CIA station chief in Dubai paid a courtesy visit to Osama bin Laden at the American Hospital there, where the wanted terrorist was undergoing kidney treatment.

Militarily and strategically, the parallels are harder to see, but stunning when you do discern them. For example what's the equivalent of North Vietnam for Afghanistan? It's the Pak ISI of course, protecting what it sees as Pakistan's national interests above and beyond whatever the US stooge-du-hour in Islamabad may declare as being Pakistan's official policy. The ISI feels that Pakistan needs to control both Afghanistan and Kashmir in order to keep them out of India's hands, which is why it continues to support its proxy forces there, namely Kashmiri terrorists like Lashkar-e Taiba who attack overseas targets in the UK and India, and the Taliban who are at war with NATO.

There are many differences of course. In Vietnam the US had mere air superiority, not air supremacy, as it does in Afghanistan, where lumbering fat C-130's loaded with heavy guns and artillery can rain destruction on sleeping villages with total impunity. There are no US pilots being held in bamboo cages by the Taliban, no volleys of SAM's greeting every US air strike.

Paradoxically, in Vietnam it was the US that bombed the enemy's supply lines - namely the Ho Chi Minh trail - whereas in Afghanistan it's the Taliban that bombs and takes a levy from NATO supply lines, both through the Khyber Pass and in the northern provinces bordering Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.

One of the biggest differences is in the sphere of news and propaganda, where the Yanks and their vassals exercise unprecedented, quasi-totalitarian control, keeping the worsening state of the Yank and NATO war effort away from public view whereas the Vietnam shambles was exposed daily on TV screens by omnipresent war reporters.
Re: Vietnam parallels
[info]corporeal_v002 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 07:52 am (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed info. Sadly as its factual history, most warmongers are going to ignore it, they are unable to handle this much truth in one go.
Re: Vietnam parallels - [info]niroses - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:29 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Vietnam parallels - [info]uanime5 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:30 am (UTC) Expand
in or out of Afganistan
[info]pittos wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 09:11 am (UTC)
your commentator from the US who said the UK had pulled the fat out of the fire twice is common argument. for a start, he is so wrong. first; the US was helping because of stratetgic economic self interest; the US refused to sponsor the UK economically, concentrating on Europe only for it's own benefit. The US used the UK for a jump of point. second; if the US did not enter into Europe we would be all speaking german, including the US. thirdly; The Germans declared war against the US and the Japanese declared war against the US, so the US was forced to go to war. fourthly;the UK is no longer a world power, it's a European state. and the the UK understands this the better. fifthly; Great Britain GAVE the continent of America to European settlers, so you should be thankful, you typical yank blow hard. read your history.
ps. I am half greek half brit, so I am a typical European.
Taliban cannot win unless we surrender
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 09:42 am (UTC)
"The debate, which divides Mr Obama's most senior advisers, was thrown into stark relief by the leaked report of General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of US and allied forces in Afghanistan, warning that the war might be lost within a year without a further boost in troop strength and a major change in strategy to combat the spreading Taliban insurgency."

Unless the Taliban has enough soldiers and weapons to defeat all the Coalition soldiers the war will not be lost ever, it will be fought to a stalemate. The Taliban lacks the resources to defeat the Coalition, so they're fighting a guerilla war and hoping that the Coalition soldiers will eventually leave because lack the ability to remove them.
AFGHANISTAN WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED ....
[info]niroses wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 09:47 am (UTC)
The Mujahideen will eventually be victorious ..... with more corpses of coalition forces ..... for what gain did those dead sacrifice. They ended as criminals who raped and murdered innocent civilians. We Muslims know their pain of slaughter in the hands of Mujahideen will be multiplied a trillion times in their graves and in the hereafter ..... We go our way and you go yours ... we know JIHAD can never fail ..... it is powerful ..... forces of the unseen wages alongside of the slaves of Allah. One should read the Qur'an carefully when Allah sent His Angels to enhance the Muslim forces and the kuffar had no control in it ..... it began with "Badr" and continued through ..... even today .... Americans nor Neocons, nor the Free masons can stand this super Power ...... world knows the culprits of 911 headed by Dick Cheney ..... truth stands clear ..... Allahu Akbar ....
Win the Afgan War
[info]niroses wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 09:56 am (UTC)
Win the Afgan War by retreating from that holy land ...... though with humiliation .....get lost you coalition criminals ..... save some American/ coalition asses from the butts of the Mujahidden ..... Afghanistan is unwinnable ..... Allah and angels are on their side ..... oSama will definitely replace oBama .... very soon ....
funny feeling
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:12 am (UTC)
I have a funny feeling that in 30 years' time historians will look back on the American defeat in Afghanistan and will note the the beings of the planet Earth never learn and they will refer back to the period of reciprocal destruction of beings similar to themselves that took place in that part of the said planet now known as Vietnam
Re: funny feeling
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 10:32 am (UTC)
Why? The US has fought a lot of wars since Vietnam where they have been bogged down for years and no one ever mentions them.
Re: funny feeling - [info]vhawk1951 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 11:19 am (UTC) Expand
Re: funny feeling - [info]dydor - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: funny feeling - [info]vhawk1951 - Thursday, 24 September 2009 at 03:39 pm (UTC) Expand
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