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Tim Collins: Afghanistan remains a worthy cause

If we shrink from the fight, subversion and chaos will come to the streets of Europe

With 184 men dead as a result of our involvement in the campaign in Afghanistan, many will now be asking: is it worth the effort? The bland riposte is always: "If we don't win the fight there we will have to fight it here." Unlike most spin that flows like a mighty river from the Government, this bit is actually true.

Critics will also point out that we have been engaged in this fight for eight years, and they invoke memories of failed British campaigns of the 19th century and the Soviet failure in the 1980s. One must deal with the facts here, however.

Technically we have been at war for eight years, but in reality this needs to be seen as a series of much shorter but connected campaigns. The first period was overwhelmingly successful. It looked terminal for the insurgents. But any doctor will tell you that if you have an infection – and an insurgency is an infection – you have to finish the course of medication, even if the symptoms disappear. If you do not, the infection will come back, more virulent and now impervious to the medication used previously.

In 2003, the coalition, on the point of annihilating the Taliban and al-Qa'ida, stopped, withdrew massive numbers of forces and support, and threw the lot at Iraq. That was never meant to be a long war. But it was. And as it dragged on, the infection of Taliban and al-Qa'ida stabilised and then once more flourished. This led to the second era where a woefully underfunded coalition tried desperately to pretend all was well even as the Taliban marched back from exile.

The third period began on 31 July 2006 when Nato became involved, taking over operations in the south of Afghanistan. In reality it was the usual suspects – the UK, the US and Canada – taking on the mission, with effective contingents from Holland and Denmark too. The rest of Nato did not stray too far from the relative safety of Kabul and Bagram.

In the war zone, commanders were pressured by government to avoid risking criticism from the media by casualties. This meant a remote, faceless war. Bombing by aircraft, artillery and drones was the order of the day at the least sign of what could be enemy. But it went down badly with the civilian population, and for that reason alone was a losing strategy.

We are now in the fourth period, marked by the election of President Obama and the appointment of General Stan McChrystal. It is what one US general described as the "decisive summer". This is a well-resourced, deliberate campaign with clear aims and objectives.

But it comes at a price. This is a fight to the death with the Taliban and al-Qa'ida. It will be an incremental fight to clear and hold. The Taliban, with its fascist ways, must be driven from the towns and villages, and a permanent presence of coalition-backed Afghan National Police (ANP) and Afghan National Army (ANA) established.

That means no more remote bombing. It is all about protecting, not destroying, the civilian population. To do this we need to get in close. We need to be prepared to take casualties in order to protect civilians. And I mean protect civilians here in the UK as well as in Helmand province, because if we shrink from this fight, the subversion and chaos of Afghanistan will come to the streets of every city in Europe. It will not confine itself to Islamic fundamentalism either; it will result in a tsunami of organised crime too.

We know from experience from Northern Ireland, and now Iraq, that military solutions are ineffective in dealing with a largely a civil problem. It is better understood by what I characterise as a "spectrum of subversion".

Violence is at the centre of the spectrum, the visible light. To the right is politics. To the left, and crucial to the extremely expensive business of violence and politics, is crime. It funds and underpins the rest of the spectrum. It supports and corrupts the political end of the spectrum simultaneously by funding campaigns and corrupting officials. To succeed there is a need to defeat the insurgency across the spectrum. That means tackling the crime that is the oxygen of subversion, taking control to drive the struggle into the political part of the spectrum by encouraging dialogue, rewarding political progress and making violence increasingly counterproductive.

General McChrystal knows this. He well understands the extent to which the poppy harvest funds the violence. He is intellectually beyond the "just burn the stuff" logic that gave no thought to what the farmers would replace it with. He is acutely aware of the nature of Afghan politics. He understands the need to win over the population, and that means not killing them.

The bit of the war we see is the casualties among our soldiers as they liberate Helmand. What we do not see is the efforts to build a bureaucracy and a society, to sustain the gains that have been bought at such a price.

And this leads us to the crucial point. For once we are winning. We are winning the fight and the argument. The UK commander on the ground, Brigadier Tim Radford, has made this clear. Any successful counter-insurgency is not about body counts but about building a secure environment for normality to spread.

"Defeat the ideology and not the insurgent" has been our tactic since Malaya. By the institutions, education and bureaucracy that follow on after our troops, we are making the Taliban irrelevant in the Afghan society. This is a lasting victory.

Militarily the Taliban cannot sustain this rate of attrition. It is losing scores to our every one. Its bank is going bust and terrorist volunteers to go into this mincer are increasingly hard to find. Let's keep faith with our deployed troops. Let's support the judgement and experience of Brigadier Radford and his men. They are on the ground and we are not. If we lose, it will be because we have defeated ourselves by a lack of nerve, and if that happens the sacrifice will be in vain. Keep the faith.

Colonel Tim Collins served in Iraq and elsewhere and is now chief executive of New Century Consulting

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Comments

Rubbish. Sheer neo-con RUBBISH, Collins.
[info]reiksares wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 11:39 pm (UTC)
Tub-thumping balderdash from the C21st's equivalent of Lord Cardigan.

Get British troops out of this yankee-doodle insanity NOW.

If the fat yank neonazis want to fight a racist Crusade against Islam, they can do it without Britain's help.

Re: Rubbish. Sheer neo-con RUBBISH, Collins.
[info]gerry3273 wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:56 pm (UTC)
As stated at the bottom of this article, Tim Collins is the CEO of New Century Consulting. New Century Consulting's web site says that it has "Operational offices in Iraq, Afghanistan and worldwide". In other words, Tim Collins is telling us to continue supporting a war from which his company directly benefits. He has a vested interest in telling us to continue to support this war.
In other words it is an illegal aggressive corporate welfare war
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 04:41 pm (UTC)
justified by wilfully negligent misrepresentations uttered by quisling rat-brains in Westminster and Whitehall
A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]susanlevi wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:15 am (UTC)

This war is about securing a pipeline corridor for US oil companies so that they can control and dominate the sales and marketing of Central Asian Oil . The crusade against islamicists is just a foil. The real strategic war is for control and domination of both the Mid Eastern Oil resources and the Central Asian oil basins; to prevent them from falling into Russian or Chinese hands;and perhaps to also to surround Iran and check any further spread of its influence. Their future prosperity will be at the expense of our current way of life, which is based on cheap oil and gas - Oil and Gas have peaked and new sources of supply need to be secured. The role of these troops is to protect US interests in securing the pipeline corridor through to Pakistan and the Indian Ocean sea lanes. Please lets not insult our intelligence and pretend it is about freedom or about protecting the homeland from disorganized islamicists. Call it as it is - a war to secure cheap oil - and the British Public will lend its support on the basis of self interests and these lads will not have died for nothing. A death a day is a small price to pay for securing oil and gas resources for the future. Perhaps if we had kept our North Sea oil and not let the US Oil giants take it all, we would not have seen any need to go to the other side of the world to secure another oil basin !
Re: A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]westhamsterdam wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:34 am (UTC)
Thanks for hat for the life of me I cannot see any point to this war. The odd thing is this time 20 years ago the U.S. were the Talibans biggest friends. Then 12 years later some one in an Afgan cave masterminds the biggest assult on the U.S. in all its history & now it's war.

The ironic thing is that most of the weapons being used against the British will probably be supplied by the Americans.
Re: A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:06 pm (UTC)
You're wrong: the BIGGEST assault on the US was Pearl Harbour during WWII; around 330 aircraft 2500 people killed and another 1000 to 2000 injured.

Don't believe the hype.

You're perfectly correct about that old friendship between the US and the 'Taliban' (who were called 'Freedom Fighters' back then).

But the 'Taliban' of the 1980s was immensely different to what we have now; they have now been seriously hijacked by foreigh, fanantically religious (similar to the Neo-cons in extremisim) elements.

The point of this war is not a war against Islam (especially as the Taliban have disregarded the Koran's teachings in many facets and many muslims will agree with me that they are not muslims, but criminals & drug lords who are exploiting & inciting other muslims - muslims who are already sensitive over REAL anti-muslim activity such as in Palestine). The point of this war is to stop extremism; just like Neo-conservatism must be stopped. Any extremism is bad.
(no subject) - [info]giuseppesaponi - Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:15 pm (UTC)
Re: A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:29 pm (UTC)
1814? And what relevance does that have in 2009? How is that comparable to the air assault in 9/11? Oh - oops - of course, a tosser like you can no doubt pick something out & tie that in. Go and play in the traffic, please, planet's over-populated as it is - no one will miss you.
Re: A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]johnjackson wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 05:33 pm (UTC)
It isn't meant to be comparable, you retard. You state the biggest (and you use capitals here, again indicative of a moron) assault on the U.S. was Pearl Harbour. It wasn't, and you are an ignorant cretin although that's bleedin' obvious from your posts.
Re: A Death a day for Oil and Gas
[info]cybernaught2009 wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 11:09 am (UTC)
I don't agree. I think that the fighting in Afghansitan is part of a war against fundamentalist Islam in the form of the Taliban and al-Qa'ida. (N.B. it is not a racist war against Islam as some have claimed, nor is it a colonial war of conquest as others seem to think.) The West (and Pakistan, Russia, China, Israel, etc.) cannot sit back and allow al-Qa'ida a secure base for its terrorist training camps, nor can they allow the Taliban to destabilize Pakistan and threaten to gain control of its nuclear weapons.

If the Western coalition is successful, then it is probably true that an oil pipeline through Afghanistan would benefit the West. But I think that this would be a happy side-effect as far as the West is concerned, not its hidden war aim. After all, as a result of the economic downturn there are lots of oil reserves which are not being explored or tapped; e.g. those off Shetland.
Not worthy of British or Afgan civilian deaths
[info]ftgt wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:59 am (UTC)
Nice overview of the stages of the conflict. No doubt we'll eventually stumble on a winning formula for milatary success, but the political objectives for this invasion are non acheiveable. Worse still, the morality and rationale for us being there is just plain wrong. Not worth one British soldiers death nor the countless Afgan civilian deaths and injuries. Trops out now!
Re: Not worthy of British or Afgan civilian deaths
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:15 pm (UTC)
You say, very sweetly, that its' not worth 'the countless Afghan civilan deaths & injuries: Troops out now!'

You do realise that the 'Taliban' are terrorising the local population, killing them? I agree that NATO must REALLY do something about minimising the civilian casualties, but imo withdrawal is not going to achieve security for the Afghans.

So, according to you, what are the 'political objectives' and why are they non-achievable? As far as I know, the political objectives are to stabilise Afghanistan, stamp out the extremism, rebuild the country's institutions: what's so wrong with that?

You speak of our 'morality' being completely wrong: why? Even if you are one of the sceptics (who believes we are fighting there for oil & energy concerns), isn't the 'side-effect' of ridding Afghans of the brutal, demented criminals that call themselves 'Taliban', morally correct?

Don't get me wrong - I am certainly not pro-war: I just don't see what other option we now have in Afghanistan.
And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]solutionsplease wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 03:52 am (UTC)
Easy to say get out now--and who takes over? There are significant problems--for starters an incredibly corrupt civilian government. But at different times most countries have had them. The big problem is when we leave, and Al Quaida and the Punjabi Taliban and other groups have a safe haven again what do we do when they look outward? What if they begin to expand into central asia?

I do disagree on the suggestion that we totally get rid of the use of drones. "up close" fighting also kills civillians. If there is a good liklihood of a drone taking out a major leader of the taliban, why not use it?
Consider if it were your son or daughter that was the squaddie being asked to go in instead. Knowing that their actions would also mean civillian deaths would you say "risk the lot just to say we don't use drones?" It's a bit like saying "I abhor Atomic weapons," without looking at the huge numbers killed with
"conventional" weapons--in the Congo, etc.--you can't just apply a label to one set of weapons without looking at what the real fallout is of the alternative. Conventional "manned" strikes are hardly guarantors that only bad guys die. In Hollywood, perhaps, but rarely in real life. Especially with guerilla leaders who live with famillies.
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]victormc wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:23 am (UTC)
You can never defeat the Taliban - quite impossible. Yes, If the Afghanis want a Taliban regime who are we to argue with these medieval crackpots? Get out now-today.
Afghanistan was never the source of terror it was America's knee jerk reaction to 9/11 which Bliar joined in.
Pakistan is the centre of world terrorism - that is where military and political effort should be concentrated.
I entirely agree with susanlevi posted at 12.15, now THAT is closer too the real mark.
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:21 pm (UTC)
Well, you've make a huge mistaken assumption: that the Afghans want the 'Taliban' in power.

They do not!! Where did you get that from?!!

However, I completely agree (you are one of the few posters that has mentioned it), that Pakistan is HUGE in the game of terrorism; they send hundreds of volunteers to Afghanistan every week to blow themselves up or fight against NATO and to terrorise the Afghans; shut down these terrorists coming to Afghanistan (I know, I know - it's very difficult, porous border and all that), and you'll begin to see a drying up within the 'Taliban' ranks.

(no subject) - [info]victormc - Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:00 pm (UTC)
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:14 pm (UTC)
Your assessment of it is spot on. Limited in scope, but spot on in terms of what you are considering.

Your Q:"...why on earth should we care about their medieval little sand castle?"

I think it comes down to the fact of whether we want to help the innocents caught up in all this crap or not.

And then, we should take our politicians to task for creating all this conflict, for creating the enemy our lads are now fighting, for all the pro-yank policies they adopt without thought or care for the UK.
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]victormc wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:41 pm (UTC)
'Innocents' - it is their world leave them to it. WE cannot change it.
You and I are the 'innocents' here in Britain with a non elected Prime Minister with an ever failing government of daily resigning ministers carrying out extremely unpopular policies which we can do nothing about until June 2010 - they could say the same about US.
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]victormc wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:03 pm (UTC)
To what is happening now - YES!!! See my other post - it's THEIR world not ours.
Re: And would commenters prefer a Taliban society?
[info]damnthestupid wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 02:17 pm (UTC)
Too simple.

It's an interdependent world. If you think we can just ignore what's going on, only a few thousand miles away, you obviously haven't understood the gravity of the situation.
Waste of time
[info]tovasco wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 05:46 am (UTC)
The Afghan National Police and Afghan National Army and are conspicuous by their absence and are too busy looking for bribes at checkpoints (to supplement their meager and often absent pay) to win hearts and minds.The noble concept is a joke. Realistic military planners called for 600,000 troops to invade Iraq, not to defeat Saddam but to control the country. How can 90,000 Afghan troops who are mainly employed propping up the Government in Kabul hold the ground behind coalition forces? The hideous mistake of diverting resources and interest to the reckless war in Iraq has cost us and the people of Afghanistan dearly.
A gallant officer
[info]earl_of_chatham wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 06:12 am (UTC)
"We need to be prepared to take casualties in order to protect civilians. And I mean protect civilians here in the UK as well as in Helmand province, because if we shrink from this fight, the subversion and chaos of Afghanistan will come to the streets of every city in Europe. It will not confine itself to Islamic fundamentalism either; it will result in a tsunami of organised crime too. "

It was Wellington who said that there is nothing stupid as a gallant officer and I'm afraid Collins' article exemplifies this. We are in danger here because idiot and craven governments have allowed Islamic colonisation, with their extraordinary rates of multiplication. What matters is Halifax not Helmand. It is pure folly to fight so far forward, so unprofitably. It must have escaped Collins notice that poppy production has soared since the traitor Blair sent the Army into Helmand

"The Taliban, with its fascist ways, must be driven from the towns and villages, and a permanent presence of coalition-backed Afghan National Police (ANP) and Afghan National Army (ANA) established."

Local forces have often proved themselves worthless in this kind of situation the world over. The Afghan narco-state, if it can be called a state at all, is no basis on which to build

"By the institutions, education and bureaucracy that follow on after our troops, we are making the Taliban irrelevant in the Afghan society."

You are on another planet, there will be no such follow up -we cannot create security and the Afghan state is rotten to the core; in any case the Taliban are an integral part of Afghan society - which is deeply conservative tribal Islamic of course

You say it is "not about body counts" but apparently it is "Militarily the Taliban cannot sustain this rate of attrition".

"Its bank is going bust and terrorist volunteers to go into this mincer are increasingly hard to find. "

We in the west are fine ones to talk of bust banks. Everything we know of the Taliban tells us that they have an inexhaustible supply of jihadis(notably from the tribal areas of Pakistan, and Birmingham) waiting to fight the infidel invader, and their fanatical, fatalistic courage has never been in doubt for a moment. I wouldn't call them terrorists for they are fighting fotr their own country, depressing though their primitive outlook is.

We also know that the Talibs have improved their tactics, that they choose when to engage and when to break off. We have no answer to their explosive devices, the largest of which can destroy a tank

"If we lose, it will be because we have defeated ourselves by a lack of nerve, and if that happens the sacrifice will be in vain."

The same arguments were deployed by Haig during the Somme, and Harris during the Battle of Berlin. The sacrifices are completely in vain, it does not help the living or the dead to compound the folly

Nonsense on stilts
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 06:19 am (UTC)
"If we shrink from the fight, subversion and chaos will come to the streets of Europe"

Your starter for ten, as they say on University Challenge, colonel:

How many bombings did we get from the IRA? How many from all these Moslem terrorists the country is supposed to be crawling with? Slight difference, eh?

What happened at Easter when Brown tried to scare us about the "imminent" threat? A load arrested, not charged, not releaed. That will have had precisely the opposite effect to the one intended.

What supporters of this war don't - won't - get is that the main threat to this country is UK foreign policy, the 'client state of the US' foreign policy as started by Blair.

BTW, colonel, we've been to Afghanistan three times before, and the league table reads:

P3 W0 D0 L3 F0 A3 Pnts 0

And a further BTW, colonel, the Russians got kicked out and they did NOT skimp on troops.

And why did they get kicked out: because the West supported the Taliban.

Just like we supported that criminal Saddam Hussein when he went to war with Iran.

Does our foreign policy ever worry you, Colonel?

What we have here is Vietnam Mark II, colonel.





Tim Collins to challenge Nick Griffin for BNP leadership
[info]giuseppesaponi wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:02 am (UTC)
So the Taliban are a "virus" and "infection". Yes and the Jews were "vermin". Now where have we heard this racist shite before? Collins repeats the Gordon Brown lie that the Afghans would be slaughtering us here if we wern't slaughtering them over there. It was Joseph Goebbels who said if you tell a big lie often enough then people will come to belive it.
Hey, Collins, I hear there is still a pocket of Romanians holding out somewhere in Belfast, so get yourself over there and drive them out before they "infest" are quaint towns and cities!
Killing civilians
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:04 am (UTC)
BTW colonel, did we use drones in Norther ireland?
Afpak...
[info]victormc wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:15 am (UTC)
Mind thrashing drivel. Go join the army Tim Collins - again.
History shows that the decision to follow the Americans in there by Bliar was monumentally stupid. I for one and of course many others have been begging in these sort of columns to get out of that drug-ridden hellhole for years. I am very sorry to say ..we "told yer. so" and the chickens are coming home to roost. Oh! so very very predictable. My deepest condolences to the families of the dead soldiers sent there by our moronic politicians to an un-winnable war. Lions lead by donkeys - in this case the donkeys are the politicians (all parties) and Mr. Tim Collins who presumably has family who lead our armies to our famous 'victory' in 1914-18. Ugh....
'Who has the guts to pull out?'
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 07:32 am (UTC)
You might thin k you've strayed onto the Daily Dacre here this morning.

But the curious thing is that far from publishing this sort of clap-trap, the Dacre covers itself in glory just for once.

Correlli Barnett's dissection of the lies and spin behind this war is superb reading:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1198976/Who-guts-pull-out.html



Re: 'Who has the guts to pull out?'
[info]victormc wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 08:40 am (UTC)
Please please please, everyone read the link referred to above in the Mail.......Has he got it right or has he?
I note the little twerp Miliband spinning like a top this morning...exactly what the Mail article means.
Re: 'Who has the guts to pull out?'
[info]ratcatcher911 wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 09:40 pm (UTC)
It's a good one, spot on.
Reality needed
[info]barncactus wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 08:37 am (UTC)
No, I don't think so. The underlying problem, caused by Blair and Brown and still not admitted is that we cannot under any circumstances win a war in Afghanistan. Against that propositiion are the sheer numbers of potential fighters in Afghanistan and Pakistan, their obvious knowledge of how to fight on their home territory, the quality of their (Iranian?) munitions, the terrain and frankly our lack of a concrete objective. Trying to win the hearts and minds of a quite understandably hostile population is not an achievable military objective. Nether is it achievable by any other short-term means. It could take decades and a quite untenably large sum to win round the non-Taliban element of the whole of that country and a good chunk of Pakistan.
And what are we in fact doing? Playing around with the edges to be 'seen to do something'.
Our politicians (including soldier-politicians) are disengenuous and frankly at times dishonest, not least about the manning and equipment levels required.
We cannot do anything about that part of the world without a huge and very long-term invasion by the combined forces of the EU, who of course know a silly situation when they see one and are keeping the lowest of profiles. I don't blame them, they have seen Blair at work before.
The next government will have to deal with our Afghan involvement, if public opinion and rapidly mounting losses don't force the issue before.
[info]democraticact wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 09:02 am (UTC)
Soldiers need to justify the business of killing. Having seen the horror of the Desert Storm war and heard the terrifying language of "shock and awe", decent people were sickened by Colonel Tim Collin's eve-of-battle speech. The overwhelming majority in this country didn't support the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps the same majority know we shouldn't be fighting in Afghanistan and want us out. Even those who have no concern for the suffering, might understand that like our colonial wars and America in Vietnam; this war can't be won by outsiders. It is a terrible indictment of our affairs that our face could
have been saved if the Generals had refused to fight. As it is we are governed by a Parliament of war criminals that we have no control over ! Go to: democraticbritain.org.uk
It will never be 'won'
[info]allenn007 wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 09:17 am (UTC)
If history has taught us anything then it has taught us that Afghanistan can never be won.

Even recent history when the Taliban were 'defeated' in 2003, they regrouped and in about three years were back. Do politicians have some sort of memory problem? This will be the cycle.

As for an objective to this war, there isn't one. When Miliband was asked on Today 'how will we know when we have won'. He had no answer, because there is no objective.
Let's piss off home
[info]earl_of_chatham wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 09:49 am (UTC)
"He said: We don't care about the future of Afghanistan. We don't care about democracy, clean water, schools for girls or the political overview."

'All we care about now is each other and making sure that our mates get out alive.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198940/Our-darkest-day-war-Taliban-Eight-soldiers-killed-Afghan-death-toll-overtakes-number-troops-lost-Iraq.html

Too bloody right. It is a shame that the senior officers do not display the common sense of this young soldier. Are they blockheads or merely careerists?
Hearts and minds
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 09:56 am (UTC)
It's the Vietnam dilemma again: do you go for military victory, but lose 'hearts and minds'?

Today's disturbing piece in the New York Times might confirm that the bigger war is being lost:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/11/world/asia/11afghan.html?th&emc=th
[info]jimhogg wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 10:22 am (UTC)
Shallow and off target. Mis-identifies the fundamentals, extrapolates from a non-analogous situation, and misrepresents the nature of the conflict and its implications. Imv this war increases the odds of terrorist activity here in the long term. Labelling ideological difference as an "infection" is a major part of the problem. The way to keep our streets free of terrorist activity is to maintain a diversely liberal society, with democratic and judicial institutions that are worthy of respect from the broadest range of opinion, and crucially, to avoid meddling in the business of other nations. At the moment we seem to be failing on all counts and will continue to pay the price. At best what we have here is outsourcing of tragedy.

Correct on the question of resourcing though. If politicians must flex their egos abroad they should at least adequately equip the young people at the business end in order that their lives are not so cheaply thrown away.
War profiteer
[info]vergatario wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 11:32 am (UTC)
Anyone seeking an informed and intelligent analysis of the war in Afghanistan should read Rory Stewart's piece in the Telegraph today. Collins's stuff is rubbish, of course, but most telling is what he does not mention - that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq have created a billion dollar market for Western mercenaries that would be destroyed by Western disengagement from those countries. And Mr Collins's business? Why, he is head of a mercenary army called New Century Consulting, which he formed in 2006 to profit from the very wars that he urges us to continue! A declaration of interest is in order, I feel.
Tim Dim but not very nice
[info]lkdamo wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 12:14 pm (UTC)
So Tim, how's life as a mercenery? I bet the money is good and if this war drags on for years, we will need people like to rip the arse out of it.
If you knew anything about wars, or were honest at least, you would be recommending an exit startegy.
Do you reckon that 16,000 UK and US troops is enough to clear and hold Helmand?
I tought you migh know seen as it says on you website...
"Assessments and appraisals of security-related weaknesses are translated into actionable plans which both mitigate risk and protect against threats"

Or is 16,000 just enough to stop you loosing contracts in the comming years.

For 8 years the taliban have survived the rate of attrition, a whole generation is growing up to become part of that attrition, so you are talking nonsense.
I hope you give better advice to your paying clients, unless that's what they want to hear of course.
Vietnam Mark II
[info]vviittaa wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 01:14 pm (UTC)
Learn from the failures in Vietnam. Right is NOT on our side.
Shameful, shameful spin from politicians (bought and paid for.)
Not fit for publication
[info]robert_hardy wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 01:15 pm (UTC)
It is a sad day for journalism when the Independent newspaper instead of commissioning real journalism, and in recent days we have seen virtually none from Afghanistan, and instead fills its pages with self interested propaganda from a man with a commercial interest in continuing this obscene slaughter.
Playing to our strengths
[info]angrypancho wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 03:43 pm (UTC)
Destruction is SO MUCH easier than the alternative. So why aren't we all trying to destroy religion?
Fight the Taliban here?
[info]richard_kefalos wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 05:41 pm (UTC)
The writer did not explain "'If we don't win the fight there we will have to fight it here.' Unlike most spin that flows like a mighty river from the Government, this bit is actually true."

So if the troops come home, will the Taliban with the beards, turbans, balloon pants, and AK-47s next show up on the Champs-Elysees? Absurd ...
Crap
[info]corporeal4now wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 08:30 pm (UTC)

The soldiers signed up to protect the UK. But instead they are being used as pawns in a political game lead by Bush and his mates.

By signing up with the army, the soldiers forefeit their option to choose between right and wrong and rely on the politicians to act with wisdom and justice in dealing with the world. But justice and wisdom is not at the top of the priority list, sadly.
Tim Nice But Spin.
[info]bavonww wrote:
Saturday, 11 July 2009 at 10:06 pm (UTC)

"Technically we have been at war for eight years, but in reality this needs to be seen as a series of much shorter but connected campaigns."
I'm not a soldier but isn't a war; essentially, a series of campaigns?

Then we move on to: "the Taliban, with their facist ways.."
Ah! No longer fundamentalists, or fanatics, are they?
Tim Collins: Afghanistan remains a worthy cause
[info]famulla wrote:
Sunday, 12 July 2009 at 09:00 am (UTC)
when and when we win>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes yes yes yes we will be heroes
There is no free lunch. We know this and all know this but we cannot face these as the one who is on the top seat covers up the lot.
Pigs, pigs, pigs, pigs, pigs. The hen and the pig. The pig told the hen, ?You are very lucky. You have to stretch your f**** ass to lay the egg. Me. I have to do Hara-kiri to feed the humans and they the ungrateful ones call me Swine. I am sad. They get cows folding and buckle the legs fall. The name is Cow diseases but me. The man very bad. They can have fish wrapped in the paper. I have to fry in the oven or hot oil to be looked down at the pork. I am pink with the curly tail. But they. the human very grateful as they feed me well so they can make a ? then they take a small dot like blood from my blood and show in the TV. This is the swine flue take care even if I am roasted. Very sad .
Let us talk of the spending these days all advocate. Brown says spend, spend to save. I disagree with spending and saving as I think spending is for pleasure, the economic term, my choice. The saving is forced by the government. Is this democracy? I wonder. How will we agree the stock with cash flow?
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla

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