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We must not forget the real causes of the war

It was Hitler’s invasion of Poland that set off the Second World War war, argues Norman Davies, one of our leading historians. But their suffering and Russia’s part in their fate afterwards still goes unrecognised

One might have thought that 70 years was time enough to work out what really happened in 1939. It isn't the case. Misunderstandings and misinformation abound.

The British media is all geared up to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the declaration of war on Thursday 3 September. Once again, we shall hear Neville Chamberlain's prim radio announcement, since Germany had not withdrawn its troops from Poland, that "this country finds itself in a state of war with Germany". He inimitably accentuated the "Po-" of Poland. And his words clearly indicated that fighting had already begun.

But British people recall it differently. They are convinced that the declaration of 3 September was followed by months of a "phoney war", in which nothing really happened. Every nation remembers the past in its own way. Russians, who still revere their "Great Patriotic War", grow indignant if reminded of their involvement before 1941. They tell you how many men they lost "liberating you from fascism". Americans, too, have been drilled to think of 1941, not 1939, as the date to remember. And they, too, think that their "Band of Brothers" brought freedom to Europe.

Next week, the most extensive ceremonies to mark the outbreak of war will be held on Tuesday 1 September, at the Fort of Westerplatte in the harbour of Gdansk (the former Danzig). The host will be Donald Tusk, Poland's Prime Minister, a native of Gdansk and a good historian. The chief guests will include Angela Merkel, Bernard Kouchner, David Milliband and, barring surprises, Vladimir Putin. Gordon Brown and President Barack Obama have declined.

The guests will be told in the clearest possible terms how Adolf Hitler gave orders on 31 July 1939 to attack Poland at dawn, by land, sea and air, and how the cruiser Schleswig Holstein, moored in the harbour on a self-styled friendship visit, suddenly fired broadside against Westerplatte at exactly 4.45am. They will also hear how the heroic defenders of Westerplatte held out for days against the point-blank salvoes, and how Hitler had given special instructions to his generals to subject the Poles to "ruthless cruelty". Hitler's notorious rhetorical question, "Who remembers the Armenians now?", had been uttered a few days earlier as he pondered the coming slaughter in Poland with relish.

If anyone cares to pay attention, the Polish government will go on to use the occasion to tell its own version of the war, emphasising the unprecedented losses which flowed from the decision to fight and resist. Premier Tusk's pre-war predecessors were impressed by the pathetic fate of neighbouring Czechoslovakia, whose leaders had been persuaded not to fight. And they had felt reasonably confident. Believing that Hitler's fascism and Stalin's militant communism were equally dangerous, they had signed pacts of non-aggression both with the Third Reich and with the USSR. What is more, they had received a formal guarantee of their country's independence from Great Britain, reputedly the world's leading power, and they enjoyed close military ties with France, whose army was still thought to be Europe's finest. They had been told by General Gamelin, in the event of a German attack, that their role would be to hold up the enemy's forces for 15 days until France threw le gros de nos forces (the bulk of our forces) against Germany in the West.

In the event, the Poles did their duty. Indeed, the performance of the Polish army was rather better than that of the British and the French in the following year, when blitzkrieg was turned on them. Yet all was to no avail. By 1945, more than six million Polish citizens had been killed (18 per cent), almost half of them Jewish. Nearly half of Poland's territory had been forcibly annexed by the Soviet Union. The country's capital, Warsaw, was a desert of ruins, more completely destroyed than any European city. And Poland's precious independence, so rashly guaranteed by Britain, had sunk without trace, not to resurface until 1989. It would be surprising if the guests at Westerplatte on Tuesday can avoid hearing the word "betrayal".

The Polish government will also use the occasion to unveil the foundation stone of a Museum of the Second World War. The initiative is long overdue. But it may not pass off smoothly. The text of the museum's founding act will state, quite accurately, that Poland was the victim of "two totalitarian aggressors". Russian sources have let it be known, however, that if anyone dares to hint at Soviet complicity in the outbreak of war, Mr Putin may not show up. By Monday evening, the suspense could become unbearable.

Winners of wars get a standing start in the post-war stakes of remembrance. And Poland, as the only Allied nation to be treated as a loser, is still losing out. The Western powers, for instance, enjoy the rare luxury of possessing war cemeteries scattered throughout Europe, where almost all their fallen receive an honoured grave, where the rose gardens continue to be tended, and where the blood price of their noble cause continues to be advertised. What is more, by adopting the Holocaust as the supreme symbol of the evil against which they fought, they have inadvertently cast several other mass tragedies into the shadows. The Russians, too, who were the principal victors of the land war in Europe, were able to promote an effective post-war narrative. By publicising the slogan of "20 million Russian war dead", they gained enormous international sympathy, while successfully expunging Soviet crimes from the record, and masking the fate of the millions killed by Stalin. Information has circulated more freely since 1989. But even today, few people realise that the losses in Belarus, the Baltic states and Ukraine, which bore the brunt of the Nazi onslaught, were greater than those in Russia.

In Poland as well, a curious hierarchy of disputed war memories persists. One of several disaffected groups comes from the small town of Wielun, which before the war lay close to the German frontier. On 1 September 1939, the Luftwaffe targeted Wielun for its very first bombing raid. The bombs started falling by some accounts at 4.30am and by others at 4.40am; at all events several clear minutes before the opening salvo at Westerplatte. About 1,290 townspeople were killed in their beds. Three-quarters of the town was pulverised. The casualty rate was more than twice as high as Guernica or Coventry. But hardly anyone outside Wielun recalls it. The 50,000 people killed by German bombs in Warsaw in September 1939, and the 200,000 killed in similar circumstances during the Warsaw uprising of 1944, serve as Poland's major memories of bombing. For whatever reason, Wielun – to use the technical phrase – is not a lieu de mémoire.

In this war of war memories, few things compare in scale and determination to the massive propaganda offensive which Moscow has unleashed this week in anticipation of Mr Putin's journey. The Polish Foreign Minister, Radek Sikorski – a graduate of Pembroke College, Oxford – has made a significant diplomatic gesture by praising Mr Putin's courage. In spite of everything, Mr Putin has agreed to attend an anniversary that all Russian leaders have previously ignored. It will indeed be news in Moscow if the Russian media have to report that war did not break out in 1941 after all.

Nonetheless, no effort is being spared to reinforce the old Soviet assertion that Stalin acted wisely in 1939 (as he always did), and that the Soviet authorities can in no way be held co-responsible for the political manoeuvres leading to war. No embarrassment is shown for treating the "near abroad" as a zone where Russia can rightfully behave with impunity.

Nowadays, it is no longer possible to maintain that the Nazi-Soviet pact of 23 August 1939 was a fiction invented by bourgeois-imperialist enemies. Everyone has seen the film clips of Herr Ribbentrop landing in Moscow, and of Stalin smiling broadly as Ribbentrop and Molotov signed up side by side. But it is perfectly possible to resurrect the arguments which Soviet propagandists once kept in reserve for foreign audiences and which present the German-Soviet rapprochement as the work of a peace-loving, time-winning, defensively minded statesman. What is more, there is nothing to stop Kremlin-inspired publicists from casting the blame for the war on unspecified villains, usually Poles, who were allegedly raring to do Hitler's bidding.

Last week, two state-controlled Russian TV channels screened a film called Secrets of the Secret Protocols. Contrary to what the title might suggest, its main revelations did not deal with the secret protocols of the Nazi-Soviet pact, but with lesser known machinations behind the Polish-German non-aggression pact of 1934. Alexander Dyukov, who is associated with the film and who has authored a book of questions and answers about pre-war politics, was unable to give journalists hard evidence for his contentions. "We assume," he said, that the pact of 1934 "contained secret protocols against the USSR". And he gave an assurance that all would be substantiated in due course. His presentation was not burdened by discussion of the Polish-Soviet pact of 1932 , nor by the very real episode in 1934, when Poland's Marshal Pilsudski was rebuffed by the French after floating the idea of a preventative war against the Third Reich.

Revelations, each more shocking than the next, are growing to a crescendo. Russia's President, Dmitry Medvedev, has formed a commission for historical truth. One of its first members to speak out, Professor Natalia Narochnitskaya, chose last week to reject the well-documented admissions by Presidents Gorbachev and Yeltsin about the Katyn massacres of 1940, when Stalin's security forces murdered 25,000 Polish officer-prisoners in cold blood. Instead, she threw up a fabricated tale about 100,000 Russian POWs had been murdered by the Poles in 1920. Attack, it appears, is the best form of defence.

The Novosti press agency chimed in. It announced the publication of a collection of documents on Soviet-German relations, whose full contents will be unveiled on 31 August. It has been joined in the chorus by ambassadors, academicians and assorted commentators, all singing from the same sheet. The Soviet Union must not be blamed for the crisis of 1939. The Poles were "Hitler's first ally" (despite being the first ally of Great Britain). And the Western powers, by their duplicity and complacency, were happy to connive in Hitler's lust for war.

One of the clearest statements of Russia's apparently official line appeared on the website of the Ministry of Defence. Sergei Kovalev, from the Institute of Military History in Moscow, submitted a text entitled "Falsifications and inventions in interpretations of the Soviet Union's role...". His analysis offers the opinion that Hitler's demands on Poland in 1939 were "moderate" and "justified", and hence that responsibility for the war must be laid at Poland's door. His style, complaining about the "falsifications and inventions" of others, is highly reminiscent of Soviet times. But his logic is not. No one in Soviet Moscow would have dreamt of describing Adolf Hitler's policies as "moderate".

The newspaper Pravda (which means truth) went one better. An article written under the name of Lisa Karpova states that Poland from 1926 was a fascist state like Mussolini's Italy. Poland attacked all its neighbours in turn. And Jews in Poland were able to survive only thanks to the concentration camps. Polish agents organised a bandit attack on a German convoy carrying an Enigma machine. So, Karpova concludes, the cause of the Second World War lay in "a Polish intrigue supported by the British".

What exactly has sparked off Moscow's phrenetic interest in history can only be guessed at. It may have less to do with the approach of 1 September than with the recent anniversary of 23 August. In relation to the latter, the assembly of the Vienna-based Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) passed a resolution condemning the Nazi-Soviet pact and giving equal blame to Stalin and Hitler. A proposal was framed to turn 23 August into an international day of memory "for the victims of Stalinism and Nazism".

Still worse, a large group of distinguished German historians and intellectuals published an open letter which amounted to an apology to Poland. For the past 50 years, Moscow has benefited greatly from the Germans' guilt-ridden eagerness to take responsibility for everything and anything. But things are changing. Angela Merkel has been persuaded to support a museum in Berlin recalling the suffering of many millions of German expellees, who were driven out of their homes in the east by the Red Army, by Soviet-sponsored regimes, and by the Allied conference at Potsdam. Public opinion in Germany is maturing towards the realisation that some members of a nation may be criminals, while others may be victims; even that the same people can be regarded as criminals in one context, and victims in another. Russian public opinion lags far behind.

To date, the Polish government has kept its cool. Premier Tusk repeated yesterday that he wanted to make Poland's wartime experiences widely known, but also that he wanted to improve relations with Russia. In another interview, he said that some of the charges will be taken up by appropriate Polish advisers. He knows that the Kremlin's present exercise is a scam, and that critical voices in Russia can still be heard. Some officials in Russia are for rowing back. Kovalev's article, for example, has been withdrawn.

The Polish media are less restrained. Excited discussions are taking place on radio and television. Total disbelief is the commonest reaction. Behind the talking heads of its panellists, one TV channel has been running non-stop documentary film sequences. They show Ribbentrop and Molotov in Moscow, huge columns of Soviet tanks and cavalry rolling across the Polish frontier and the scenes from the town in central Poland where on 23 September 1939 German and Soviet forces staged a joint victory parade.

As the Russian government must realise, however, Poland will only be the start of a long, uncomfortable season. After Poland, it will be Finland's turn, and the 70th anniversary of the Winter War. Stalin's aggression against Finland in November 1939 was every bit as blatant as his actions against Poland. His German partner was not involved, and the despatch of a million troops into a neighbouring country to deport the entire population of the frontier area can hardly be described as the doings of a neutral well-wisher. It led to the expulsion of the USSR from the League of Nations. And after Finland, there will be Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Romania. At every stage, there will be scenes of peace-loving tanks, of executions and deportations, and of weeping patriots.

So Vladimir Putin has some explaining to do next Tuesday. It is interesting to think how he might go about it.

Norman Davies is a Fellow of Peterhouse, Cambridge. His Europe at War: No Simple Victory is published by Pan-Macmillan (UK) and by Penguin Books (US)

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We must not forget the real causes of the war
[info]famulla wrote:
Friday, 28 August 2009 at 11:27 pm (UTC)
An American service member died Friday when his vehicle struck a bomb in eastern Afghanistan, making August the deadliest month for U.S. forces in the nearly eight-year war.
The grim milestone comes as the top U.S. commander prepares to submit his assessment of the conflict — a report expected to trigger intense debate on the Obama administration's strategy in an increasingly unpopular war. Afghanistan – The U.S. Marines came uninvited to Abdul-Hamid's home in this southern Afghan town and made their presence felt.
They blew holes in the mud walls that surround the several small buildings in his family's compound, broke through rooms hunting for weapons and militants, and handcuffed and blindfolded the men. Their main target: Abdul-Hamid's neighbor and the neighbor's sons, all suspected insurgents.
The Secretary of Defense is briefing President Bush on Iraq. "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."
"Oh no!" exclaims the president, "That's terrible!"
His staff is stunned at this unprecedented display of emotion, watching as Bush sits, head in hands.
Finally, he looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"
"If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it"
I thank you
Firozali A Mulla
Re: We must not forget the real causes of the war
[info]freethinkin wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 12:06 am (UTC)
Thanks for copying and pasting a wall of text.
other stuff
[info]1maia wrote:
Friday, 28 August 2009 at 11:54 pm (UTC)
Have just seen Katyn. Can recommend, apart from usual problem that nobody is dirty or thin despite living in a camp, etc. But, no mention of the Jews, which is a problem because the whole film is about the Poles being screwed over by the nazis and the soviets, and the film is most reminiscent of The Pianist, a more realistic film (but Katyn is much better-directed and, being fictional, rich). But it does hint at resistance group infighting. USA refused partisan refugee status (communist resistance persecution of other resistance, as usual, but think communists were largest group).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronim_Dekutowski
If you go to Xi'An (town near the terracotta warriors) in China, one youth hostel shares a building with the 5th(?)army museum, recommend (and all the other museums there, not just the warriors, for which you will need binoculars they're so far away). They have 'the great war against the japanese' with longer dates than our WW1, and i forget the name of WW2.

Re: other stuff
[info]magdalenepe wrote:
Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 04:05 pm (UTC)
I am confused. Did you say that 'Katyn' is fictional? I think it is more real than you might think. Andrzej Wajda, director of this film, made it very personal, since his father was one of those murderd in Katyn forest.

Your comment: 'But, no mention of the Jews, which is a problem because the whole film is about the Poles being screwed over by the nazis and the soviets...' is a bit weird, since a lot of Polish citizens were Jewish. They were among the university professors being arrested and sent to the labour camps. They were members of the Polish army. They were just regular people living in Poland. And all the other countries in the occupied Europe for that matter. Where did you think the Jews killed in the holocaust came from? Israel?
Go and read some more books.
Madeleine
Re: other stuff - [info]1maia - Wednesday, 2 September 2009 at 10:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: other stuff - [info]magdalenepe - Thursday, 3 September 2009 at 12:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Roman Catholic church - [info]1maia - Wednesday, 2 September 2009 at 10:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Enigma Machine
[info]theprogramme wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:23 am (UTC)
Who really broke the cryptology of the Enigma Machine?

Three Polish Mathematicians. I Thank You. Apart from the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, by the Polish Cavalry.

Let us give thanks to the Polish victory against the Ottoman advance!

Let God bless these places of sacrifice, let the ground on which people be murdered on be sacred ground.

Auschwitz, oh how I remember the atmosphere. Let us hope and prey it never happens again.

Peace be upon us us
l
Re: Enigma Machine
[info]fin_d_empire wrote:
Wednesday, 2 September 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC)
Bullshitter, the Poles never got anywhere with their "bomba." It was Alan Turing who cracked the Enigma code with his Colossus computer, which the British government destroyed along with Turing himself as soon as the job was done.

This is another example of the Polish Dubrovka school of history.

Poland is a useless and parasitical creation of Versailles to cut Germany off from Prussia, a simple job it failed to perform in 1939 because its thieving politicians left the army an antiquated, underequipped 19th-century anachronism, and were so moronically Russophobic that they were left without any allies when Hitler's patience ran out.

It's no wonder that the Poles have never managed to ever form any semblance of a working government. Even today that Vodka-soaked nation of pig farmers make fools of themselves with their Katzenjammer twins, their CIA torture prisons, their Yank missiles, their support for the Yank stooge Yushchenko, their readiness to supply cannon fodder for Yank adventures in the Stans, their sabotaging of the EU constitution, their locking horns with Germany over North Stream, the solution to the EU's Ukrainian gas bottleneck.

The Soviets did the world a favor by keeping Poland and other East European fascist countries (the Balts, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria) safely under custody. Now they are the EU's problem. No wonder Putin managed to revive Russia so fast, without all these basket-case bunch of misfits to drag him down. No wonder the EU can't get its nose out of zero-growth stagnation and now recession.
Re: Enigma Machine - [info]dasonen - Thursday, 3 September 2009 at 12:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Enigma Machine - [info]magdalenepe - Thursday, 3 September 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC) Expand
re: fin_d_empire - [info]marcokrk1 - Saturday, 5 September 2009 at 05:08 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Enigma Machine - [info]towerlight1 - Tuesday, 6 October 2009 at 11:02 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Enigma Machine - [info]fin_d_empire - Wednesday, 2 September 2009 at 07:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Russian complicity and war crimes must be condemned
[info]armijkrajowe wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 03:33 am (UTC)
An excellent article by a excellent historian. Its time that the myths were dispelled for once and for all. Norma Davies has omitted to mention the two million Poles (some of who were to go o to form the 2nd Polish Army) exiled to Siberia for the "sin" of being Polish. One million of those Poles did not survive the brutal conditions.

The show trials and persecution of AK fighters (Home Army - Polish resistance fighters an army that numbered 500,000) as the Red Army advanced on Poland is nothing short of an absolute dusgrace from the Nazi collaborater Stalin.

Stalin of course already had the blood of many millions of Russian Kulaks on his hands, so what did a few more million Poles matter to him?The man ( I use that word loosely) is as disgusting as his Hitler.
Re: Russian complicity and war crimes must be condemned
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 11:56 am (UTC)
Excellent comment!

There is a European Arrest Warrant issued for a Polish woman, Helena Wolinska Brus, for her complicity in the trial and execution of General Emil Fieldorf, an AK leader, in a show trial after the war. The Soviet Union and Polish Communist movement wanted to ensure the removal of all potential challenges to their authority and so he was executed.

She came to the UK many years ago and now lives in Oxford. She refuses to return to Poland to account for her role in this affair.
Re: Russian complicity and war crimes must be condemned - [info]laura988 - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 11:08 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Russian complicity and war crimes must be condemned - [info]aqura - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 10:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Wall St. & Hitler
[info]bamberpanda wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 04:28 am (UTC)
WWII was the outcome of careful planning by a group of Wall St. financiers. Fantastic? Sounds it, but Antony Sutton was a formidable researcher. Read all about it in 'Wall St. & the Rise of Hitler' - available even as a download. The truth about WWII has not been forgotten, just buried. The kind of people most responsible are still doing much the same kind of thing. Wars are terrible, but terribly profitable.
Wall St. & the Rise of Hitler
[info]bamberpanda wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 04:37 am (UTC)
Anyone seeking the 'real' cause of WWII should read Antony Sutton's 'Wall St. & the Rise of Hitler'. You can even download it, free. It was a group of Wall St. financiers wot done it. Fantasy? To reach that conclusion, you have to dismiss Sutton's indomitable researching. He was a real historian, not a mind-whore of the Establishment, as are so many academics. Bamberpanda
Rewriting history
[info]49niner wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 05:48 am (UTC)
Well, we all know John Wayne in his various movie persona won the war, don't we? But then the US sat on its hands until the Japanese gave them a big wake up call in December 1941.

Nobody comes out of the period leading up the 1st September 1939 very well. Hitler was bent on a war of revenge, the Soviets had a score to settle with the Poles for 1920, and anyway before 1914 Poland had been divided between Germany, Tsarist Russia and Imperial Austria-Hungary. So in signing the non-aggression pact in August 1939, Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were merely taking back what they had held for over a century from the Partition of Poland in the 18th century.

Meanwhile, Britain and France blustered ineffectively. It's often forgotten that a lot of people in Western Europe were persuaded that Hitler was a useful buffer against the Bolsheviks and were prepared to turn a blind eye to some of his other activities as a result. We are fortunate, firstly in being an island, and secondly that Churchill, who was discredited on most issues in the 1930s, got the threat of Nazi Germany right, and proved stubborn and resolute enough to lead the nation to survive.

It's one of our abiding myths that we won the war. Rather, we were on the winning side. The real winners were firstly the US, and secondly the Soviet Union, who then embarked on a 44-year struggle by proxy which we call the Cold War. The US won this war of attrition, but in the meantime, that sleeping giant China, emerged from the shadows and may come to dominate the 21st century.

In reality, Britain was one of the big losers when the conflict ended in 1945. The British Empire was no longer viable, and the country had used the wealth of centuries fighting two world wars. Almost 65 years on, we have yet to come to terms with our loss. We retain delusions of grandeur by pretending we can still send our forces round the globe to sort out "the natives", hence Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet to many, we are little more than America's tame poodle.

History often descends into myth and WW2 lends itself to those who would use history as propaganda. Now, 70 years on, we are likely to be "treated" to a series of anniversaries all used to effect for current political ends. It is the job of historian to explore the "myths" and try and present the facts of the events described from long ago.

The number of people alive who actually remember the events of 1939 is dwindling fast. So we rely on the evidence they left behind. As a distinguished historian, Prof Stone has played his part in trying to strip away the bluster to lead us to the truth. But what is the "truth"? No doubt that will be the stuff of controversy for a long time to come.
Russian and German atrocities.
[info]oldandbold wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 08:56 am (UTC)
It was interesting and unusual to see Belarus mentioned as a country which has suffered greatly. One person in four died between 1937 and 1939 as a result of Stalin's purges amd then when the Russian's invaded, the SS divisions treated the local inhabitants with unimaginable cruelty. At a small museum about half an hours drive outside Minsk is a small wooden building. It is one of the few from the pre war period and has a haunting room full of photographs of all the intelligentsia and kulaks and teachers who were murdered by Stailin. It is very moving. Belarus still has not found freedom as it is still not under a modern democratic system.
England's responsibility for war and Holocaust
[info]sentjao wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 10:50 am (UTC)
England shares responsibility for the war and for the Holocaust. Those, who blame Russia for Molotov-Ribbentrop pact conveniently forget, that it was England, which signed Munich agreement with Nazis and allowed them to swallow Czechoslovakia. It was England that refused to sign military deal with USSR in order not to enrage Hitler. It was England, that bowed to the pressure of Arab terrorists and issued the White Book, which, in violation of England's prior commitments, banned Jewish repatriation to Palestine/Land of Israel, which was then a British colony. Thus, Jews remained with no refuge, even their own country was closed for them by the colonial administration.

Appeasement of aggression was one of the central reasons for the WWII. W.H.Auden called the thirties "low, dishonest decade".

Today is another "low, dishonest decade", today the appeasement policies are very popular in Britain again and The Independent is the paper, which actively promotes such policies.
Re: England's responsibility for war and Holocaust
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 01:36 pm (UTC)
Actually, England does not share any responsibility for the Holocaust whatsoever, any more than England is responsible for the Armenian genocide, the Katyn massacre or "The Devouring" of the Roma people during WWII.

The UK was not the policeman of the world and nothing the UK could have possibly done would have prevented the Holocaust.

As an aside, you may wish to visit Liverpool Street station in London and see the memorial to the Kindertransport campaign that saved tens of thousands of Jewish children prior to the outbreak of WWII.
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]sentjao - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 01:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]mannygoldstein - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&amp;#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]sentjao - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 03:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&amp;amp;#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]sentjao - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 10:49 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]chanch5 - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 03:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]tap_code - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 03:40 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]sentjao - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: England&#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]minineme - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 01:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England&amp;#39;s responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]sentjao - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 01:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: England's responsibility for war and Holocaust - [info]past123 - Friday, 11 September 2009 at 08:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Deaths
[info]marcokrk1 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 11:00 am (UTC)
Russians very often whine that they lost so many more lives than the Jews, Poles, etc. etc. However, it must be remembered that Jews, Poles, Brits, Americans and many others - I won't try and list them all lest I inadvertently omit a nation - died because: they had no choice; for honour; homeland; for what is right. Russians, however, I'd say the majority of Russians died because of their vicious imperialism.
Causes of war
[info]petergauhar wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 11:09 am (UTC)
The facts behind Hitler’s rise to power in Germany—ugly facts that some would like to expunge from the history books. In May 1924 the Nazi Party held 32 seats in the German Reichstag. By May 1928 these had dwindled to 12 seats. However, the Great Depression engulfed the world in 1930; riding in its wake, the Nazis made a remarkable recovery, gaining 230 out of 608 seats in the German elections of July 1932. Soon after, former chancellor Franz von Papen, a Papal Knight, came to the Nazis’ aid. According to historians, von Papen envisioned a new Holy Roman Empire. His own short tenure as chancellor had been a failure, so now he hoped to gain power through the Nazis. By January 1933, he had mustered support for Hitler from the industrial barons, and through wily intrigues he ensured that Hitler became Germany’s chancellor on January 30, 1933. He himself was made vice-chancellor and was used by Hitler to win the support of Catholic sections of Germany. Within two months of gaining power, Hitler dissolved parliament, dispatched thousands of opposition leaders to concentration camps, and began an open campaign of oppressing the Jews.
On July 20, 1933, the Vatican’s interest in the rising power of Nazism was displayed when Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) signed a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany. Von Papen signed the document as Hitler’s representative, and Pacelli there conferred on von Papen the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius. In his book Satan in Top Hat, Tibor Koeves writes of this, stating: “The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source.” The concordat required the Vatican to withdraw its support from Germany’s Catholic Center Party, thus sanctioning Hitler’s one-party “total state.” Further, its article 14 stated: “The appointments for archbishops, bishops, and the like will be issued only after the governor, installed by the Reich, has duly ascertained that no doubts exist with respect to general political considerations.” By the end of 1933 (proclaimed a “Holy Year” by Pope Pius XI), Vatican support had become a major factor in Hitler’s push for world domination.
Yes the real causes of war lie at the feet of Christendoms religios leaders.
Re: Causes of war
[info]bamberpanda wrote:
Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 01:56 am (UTC)
Petergauhar, certainly the Vatican had an unholy concordat with Hitler. Pope Pius XII turned his deaf ear to the screams, the appaling events in catholic Croatia under the nazis. But largest money support for Hitler's huge National Socialist election & propaganda campaigns came from Wall St., according to Antony Sutton. The route was from US multinationals like Ford, GM, Standard Oil, du Pont, & General Electric. It was channeled into their German subsidiaries-cum-partners, such as AEG, or I G Farben. From there it was directed to Hitler's election machine. It was purposive funding for war. Sutton uncovered the money trail. The majority of historians have been studiously ignoring it since. Cui bono? If you look for who benefits from a crime, you are much more likely to find your culprit. Bamberpanda
What about the Polish-Russian war 1920-22?
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 11:47 am (UTC)
How is it possible to discuss Polish-Russian relations without reference to this conflict where the Poles defeated the Russians?

Stalin was closely involved in the war as a political commissar and was incensed by the Polish victory.
What If?
[info]thorntongate wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 12:33 pm (UTC)
Also buried in the past is the support in the upper echelons of British life for the man who, in the word's of Moral Re-Armament's founder - Frank Buchman - "had erected a frontline against Godless, atheist, communism".

One of the more intriguing "what ifs" of this period, is the "what if Hitler had invaded?" and how many from the 'upper crust' would have come out in support?

We will never know.

One thing is certain, the UK owed Stalin no favours in June 1941.

But that's an entirely different "What if?"
Half a continent of aggressors
[info]cynic20 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:07 pm (UTC)
Half a continent of aggressors

IMHO, the whole CE in the interbellum period consisted of non-democratic state entities based on the ideas of 1) ethnic homegenity (as a proof of ultimate loyalty) and 2) aggrandizment ("reclaiment") of lands to be ethnically homogenized in turn, with the sole exception of USSR that replaced ethnic homogenity with the class one. In essence, it was Lebensraum-light from all side. Of course, there were mega-bullies (like Germany and USSR) and micro-bullies (like Latvia), but size doesn't matter here. Behavioral stereotype does. Days after Austria fell to Hitler, Poland issued ultimatum to Lithuania massing 50k troops along the border, Latvia pressured its 'Baltic sister' into acceptance, siding in this with Germany. Lithuania gave way. Several months later Poland, after chipping its chunk of dismembered Czechoslovakia (with a blessing from Berlin, Paris nad London), promised its military support to Germany in the event of military operation to retake Memel\Klaipeda from Lithuania, effectively planning dismemberment of Lithuania (with some bits and pieces along the border going to Latvia, namely, Muravjeva). Lithuanians were not saints either, capturing Memel\Klaipeda earlier and denying even earlier Latvian claims on neighboring lands to the north (Polangen). Estonia and Latvia gleefully cleansed out their Ostzee minorities in 1939 by revoking their all and every minority rights (and eventually citizenship). Lithuania gratefully accepted chunks of Polish territory from the Soviets etc... etc... etc... None of the states mentioned was a functioning democracy. So, many hands, huge, medium and tiny, are guilty in unleashing WWII. No clear distinction between victims and perpetrators is possible. No state evokes sympathy, unlike dozen of millions lives lost to chimeras of Communism, Nazism and host of ethnic nationalisms.
Real Causes of WWII
[info]maggie300 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:13 pm (UTC)
I see nobody has mentioned the dreadful Treaty of Versailles that the defeated Germany was made to sign at the end of WWI. This mean and vindictive Treaty certainly helped kick things along to WWII, and helped ease Hitler's rise to power.

We were just told at school that Germany invaded Poland to start WWII but as an adult I have been able to read much more about some of the causes of WWII. Something else that is overlooked is that East Prussia (part of Germany) had to be reached by rail travelling through the Polish corridor. Poland also wished to show its authority over that disputed area and had cut off rail connections a number of times for short periods but had finally made a stand to close down the rail link from Germany to East Prussia. With no other land route available, I think Poland must have known Germany would react against these measures.

Of course there were myriad causes all bound up like a twined thread that finally snapped.
Re: Real Causes of WWII
[info]longer888 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 05:59 pm (UTC)
Do you really believe in what you write here? It's nazi propaganda, the corridor was only pretext. The problem is that european society is misinformed and is prone to russian lies about soviet participation in WWII. Stalin is responsible for the beggining of war in the same scale as Hitler. But Stalin was'nt able to forecast that his buddy Hitler would turn out against him. Jelcyn tried to account withe the past, but Putin is heir of sovietism and nowadaus is leading huge campaign of the lies, russian lies.
Re: Real Causes of WWII - [info]magdalenepe - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]tap_code wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC)
Excellent article.Russia must come to terms with her past if she does not want to be treated with mistrust by other states.
Poland suffering
[info]frenchreader wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:29 pm (UTC)
Poland has been the worst seat of antisemitism in whole Europe since the 19th century and long before Germany, with such intensity as there were pogroms in Poland even after the end of the second world war like in Kielce in 1946. Poland suffering has to be measured in this perspective.
Re: Poland suffering
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 03:12 pm (UTC)
What is this 'perspective' that you talk of, that the suffering of the Polish people must be viewed in some fashion relating to anti-semitism?
Re: Poland suffering - [info]es_flores - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 10:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: And... - [info]es_flores - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 10:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: And... - [info]laura988 - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 11:07 am (UTC) Expand
Re: And... - [info]longer888 - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 08:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: And... - [info]laura988 - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 09:05 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poland suffering - [info]minineme - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 01:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poland suffering - [info]sunflowers89 - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 09:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poland suffering - [info]aarii - Monday, 31 August 2009 at 01:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Poland suffering - [info]annalisa222 - Sunday, 22 November 2009 at 02:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Another Thaw
[info]radson wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 02:35 pm (UTC)
The prelude to the 70th anniversary of WWII has been relatively quite internationally ,with the exception of Poland ,Russia and to a certain extent Germany.Professor Davies has once again written
an eloquent essay in order to put the negative rhetoric in perspective.The US decision not to send any high ranking Gov't officials to Gdansk may be a sign of the times with regards to relationships between
the US ,Germany and Russia-I have omitted Poland because the US missile defense shield proposal seems to be fizzling out.PM Putin's expected participation in the ceremonies is highly anticipated and
it's interesting to note the level of negative press in Russia at the moment regarding the accuracies or perhaps lack of ,with reference to WWII,yet there is an excellent article in Ria Novosti,written by
Vladimir Ryzhkov.Some European politicians are not to keen on the idea of the continual American hegemony in Europe and perhaps PM Putin will initiate another Thaw to thwart the supporters of the
Status Quo ,those that maintain manipulation of history as their raison d'ętre.

Stef R.
Logic?
[info]patyleblanc wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 04:22 pm (UTC)
One interesting fact about the beguinning of WWII: I am a citizen of a Latin American country, of Jewish religion. My particular field of interest is art. I read in a famous book about the looting of works of art by the Nazis in Europe. There I learned that when the Germans invaded Poland they burned many (Catholic) churches and killed many priests. On the other hand, when they conquered Paris... The Nazi comander ordered a mass to be held at Notre Dame (Our Lady, the Jewess Miriam / Mary). There is no logic. Kill the priests and burn the (beautiful) churches in the East while in the West they pray in a Catholic cathedral, to a Lady and Her Son, Jesus, both belonging to that untermënschen "race".
Re: Logic?
[info]stettiner wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 05:27 pm (UTC)
@patyleblanc
You have to realize that German had quite different policy in the East and in the West. I hope you know what does "Lebensraum" mean. Hitler's army introduced in the East a "burned soil policy". So there was no place in the East for any religious or culture objects that could remind of eastern nations.
(Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, etc.)
The same with educated people of those nations. Do you know what was "Sonderaktion Krakau" in November 1939? Germans wanted to change people of the East into slaves.
So that is why Nazis behaviour was quite different in the West compare to the East. If you read little more about german occupation of Poland (and wider - a war in the East) , you will understand it.
It is no question of LOGIC, it is question of the PLAN of destroying those people who were living in the East. Everybody : a man , a woman, a child , a newly born baby... Think about it that way - you'll find a Logic of Evil. Evil that nobody before WWII could even realize.


Umm...
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 04:52 pm (UTC)
The real reason behind World War II was that the American monied elite saw an opportunity and financed a complete psychopath and his friends into power,

At this time, the aforementioned elite were very enamoured by the fascist ideals and the same people that put Hitler into power also in 1933 tried to install a fascist government into the US.

So lets make no bones about it, the responsibility for World War II, the destruction, the human cost and misery that spanned from it for decades after was solely the people that financed Hitler into power and made a fortune from his way of government.

And remember too that the Bush family made its fortune from such places as Auschwitz and Belsen and that these people involved in supporting Thyssen, I G Farben etc were very very aware of what went on at these plants as much as Henry Ford was fully aware that forced labour was being used at Ford plants in Cologne and elsewhere, indeed our own Margaret Hodge's father Hans Oppenheimer turned a very blind eye to the same sort of camps at his steel plants during that period too.
Poliander
[info]poliandro wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 05:27 pm (UTC)
I'm no historian, but the story seems to be rather more complicated than the article suggests.
Alexander Werth in Russia at War starts by explaining that the Russians (or Stalin, if you prefer), before signing the pact with Von Ribbentrop, asked for the Poles' permission to send a massive attack against the Germans through the Brest-Litovsk corridor (in Polish territory), in case Poland suffered a Nazi invasion.
Of course, the Russians were interested in avoiding an invasion of the USSR, and they preferred to make of Poland the war theater. But the Polish refusal meant that the two countries couldn't cooperate against the Nazis, so each had to see by themselves. According to Werth, Stalin thought that with the treatise he was buying time, before his own unavoidable war with Hitler started.
Re: Poliander
[info]magdalenepe wrote:
Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC)
Well, according to most of the historians, Stalin was sure that Hitler would respect Ribentrop-Molotow pact. That is why Russia was taken by surprise by the German invasion in 1941.
Why would he be surprised if he expected it already in 1939?
World War II
[info]changechange2 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 06:30 pm (UTC)
"By 1945, more than six million Polish citizens had been killed (18 per cent), almost half of them Jewish." I wonder why no one ever mentions the reasons why Hitler started the war and why he started it in Poland. As the writer said six million Poles were killed, half of them Jewish. So I have to believe that three million (out of the holocaust six million) were killed in Poland, or should I take it that in total, the holacuast and the Polish Jews Killed totalled 9 Million. Wow, that is a lot of Jews killed in just two countries???
Re: World War II
[info]tea_who_you wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 08:35 pm (UTC)
Read carefully. Six million Poles (citizens of Poland, to be precise) lost their lives during the WWII, half of them were Jews. Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust, and half of them were the Jews from Poland.
Re: World War II - [info]lg1979 - Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 08:47 pm (UTC) Expand
We must not forget the real causes of the war
[info]witoldzk wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 09:00 pm (UTC)
Many thanks to the author for this article. The truth should be repeated over and over again, like the Jews never let us forget about the Holocaust. But although I am grateful, I can't help thinking it's more than a British historian, albeit a very distinguished one, who should be recounting these hard to deny truths at such critical moments. This is above all the job of the Polish government, of the foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, or at least the minister of national heritage and culture, Bogdan Zdrojewski, for instance. And with Putin's popularity apparently flagging at home (none too soon, IMHO) I suspect his much trumpetted visit to Poland is more for his benefit than Poland's.

Well, that's what I think as a Pole and your former history student.
[info]zer0interest wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 09:35 pm (UTC)
Ten years ago;confronting the pope in a rare exchange:poland's chief rabbi,pinchas menachem joskowicz,surprised john paulII during a visit to warsaw by requesting the removal of a 26-foot cross outside of Auschwitz.Despite the rabbi's blunt address to "Mr.Pope",the pontifflistend politely.A vatican spokesman said it was a local issue-but that most Poles want the cross to stay..!




Jews is positions of power mistreated (and still misttrat) ordinary Jews. seems to be just the exercise of social control and power, especially of women. Hypocrisy and lies are endemic almost everywhere in the world.

There is much evidence that wealthy Jews were party to the transportation of middle class and poor Jews to the death camps of Poland. Some people say all the anguish Jews suffered over the centuries was God's punshment for disobedience, and that a final confrontation between good and evil will occur at some stage (soon).

I do know that none of what is currently happening around the wolrd can continue for much longer because the money system that is used throoughout most of the world is a fraud (based on the mathematically impossible perpetual expansion of debt), the world is close (or past) peak of many resources (oil, fresh water, soil, forests, fisheries etc.) and the world environment is moving rapidly towards collapse, via abrupt climate change and acidification of the oceans -all a consequence of excessive population growth and industrialism.

To say that debt expansion, poplation growth and industrialism are the major the problems we have to fix is regarded as heresy by the establishment, since people at the top are obtaining huge short term benefits from all of them, whilst wrecking things fopr everyone on the long term.

[info]magdalenepe wrote:
Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 05:23 pm (UTC)
Please don't write about 'death camps of Poland'.
Concentration camps were located in many occupied countries as well as in Germany, but they were built by Nazis and so you should write about 'Nazi concentration camps in Poland' or France or Germany.
That is also how history gets twisted.
(no subject) - [info]zer0interest - Sunday, 30 August 2009 at 06:44 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]luka_kuzmich - Tuesday, 1 September 2009 at 06:06 pm (UTC) Expand
what about Israel in Gaza2008/09 - [info]zer0interest - Friday, 11 September 2009 at 08:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Great article
[info]ciaran036 wrote:
Saturday, 29 August 2009 at 10:24 pm (UTC)
A very interesting read thanks!
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Columnist Comments

andrew_grice

Andrew Grice: Enough of the philosophy, Mr Cameron.

Think-tanks play an important role in politics. But they have their limits.

christina_patterson

Christina Patterson: Very nice - but forgiveness is overrated

Sometimes, as Lydon sang, in his post Sex Pistols band, ‘anger is an energy.

mary_dejevsky

Mary Dejevsky: Why not call Blair now and wrap it up?

The enquiry already seems like a sideline as the queues dwindle.


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