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Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Freedom of speech is fine until the invective is against you

More freedom is what we must seek, but lack of restraint leads to dehumanisation

The ship flying the flag for free speech is often unsteady, sometimes leaky, as it sails capricious, tempestuous seas. Sometimes even the captains jump off and struggle to keep faith with its mission. Like the supremely erudite Stephen Fry who has always, to my knowledge, been an uncompromising champion of free expression, keeping watch on deck whatever the provocations.

Yet this Friday came the moment when Mr Fry couldn't abide by his own credo and ferociously assailed the Daily Mail columnist Jan Moir for her freely expressed views on the young pop star Stephen Gately. His gay lifestyle, she suggested, was "more than a little sleazy" and his death was unlikely to have been from natural causes. Now Fry commands a virtual army on the web. He can make or break someone with under 140 characters.

He went for Moir on Twitter, later expanding to full-sail wrath on his blog: "a repulsive nobody writing in a paper no one of any decency would be seen dead with has written something loathsome and inhumane". Other big-name liberals and gays have joined in. Advertisers are, apparently, worried and may abandon the best-selling newspaper.

I can understand their rage. The column was ugly, insensitive and homophobic. However, though I passionately believe in free speech, I am not an absolutist nor a hypocrite. The only real argument is where the line is drawn. Perhaps fundamentalists like Fry will now be more honest and accept that there are limits. Even for them.

Milton, one of the fathers of freedom, brazenly excluded some from this fundamental right: "When I speak of toleration and free expression, I don't mean Catholics. Them we extirpate." Professor Stanley Fish, the American culture critic, is incisive in his analysis. Everyone, he says, in the free-speech zone understands what is permitted: "Everyone has a trigger point, which is either acknowledged at the beginning or emerges at a point of crisis." Opinions are not abstracts, they enter society and have to deal with its needs, too.

Seven events this month reveal the increasing tension between freedom and responsibility. Each case is testing and spawns its own, particular dilemmas. Only libertarian fools and fanatics would give set-piece answers. Test yourself.

First came the national furore over "Pakigate" and Strictly Come Dancing. Then a picture of Brooke Shields, aged 10, nude, was withdrawn from view by the Tate Modern. The photographer had paid her mum $450 for the image. Shields herself has tried to have this object of exploitation removed from the public eye. So a good call, I think, by the Tate.

The BNP's bulldoggish Nick Griffin, a white supremacist, admired by the Ku Klux Klan, opponent of Jews, Muslims and mixed-race families, is invited on to the nation's most prestigious TV programme. He, who would deny millions of us the vote, is an emblem of democracy and his violent thugs who try to silence so many of us black and Asian Britons become beneficiaries of free-speech doctrine.

Hitler won the votes of the majority. Would the BBC have done him the honour, too? I say the BNP should be interrogated on news programmes but an appearance on Question Time is a privilege which the BBC now bestows on racists. It sickens those of us who expect better of the corporation.

Then comes the ghastly Dutch MP Geert Wilder who overturned the order banning him from entering Britain imposed by the former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith. He curses the Koran, damns and insults European Muslims, is a fearless xenophobe and seems to enjoy the hurt he churns up.

Invited by a UKIP MP, they both celebrated their victory for freethinking. So why then didn't Wilder accept any of the invitations from Muslim intellectuals to debate his ideas in public? Because he, like many others of his ilk, appears only to want to incite Muslims into behaving like "savages". How disappointing it must have been for him not to have a fatwa to take back home.

I agree that he should be allowed into Britain and I was proud Muslims responded with good sense. But to see him fêted as a hero in parliament was an affront. This must mean free passage for proscribed hate-makers – rabid imams, anti-Semites, homophobic black rappers. If not, it only confirms outrageous double standards.

The most serious threat to free speech has come from David Miliband, now a skilled double-dealer. He talks the talk on good British values and yet rejects the judgement of two senior judges who demand disclosure of information that could prove our intelligence services colluded with the US and others to torture captured Muslims in the "War on Terror", in particular Binyam Mohamed who was held in Guantanamo Bay for many years.

Next the drama over a scientific study on toxic dumping in West Africa by the company Trafigura, whose lawyers obtained an injunction to keep the information secret, including debates on the scandal in Parliament. The gaggers were duly defeated but commercial confidentiality remains an effective weapon used by big business to keep us in the dark.

Lastly, the scientist Simon Singh (a good friend) is being sued by the British Chiropractic Association which objects to his attacks on the profession. He, who is supported by Fry and others, got leave to appeal against an earlier ruling that went against him. Many of us are silenced by the might of libel law. Money, as Orwell wrote, "controls opinion". Singh wants more "freedom to criticise fairly and strongly" on the blogs and scientific writing. I agree but too many bloggers are mad or malicious. So what to do about them? Not easy.

Libertarian ideologues such as journalist Brendan O'Neill have no such moral conundrums: "Offensiveness is part of life; the politics of inoffensiveness is a threat to free speech and open debate." Yes, until people's deep feelings are roused as were Fry's by Moir.

Any woman who has been sexually abused would not have seen the art in the image of Brooke Shields. And Muslims, Asians and Black people are human, too – experiencing the pain of gratuitous invective piled on us, day after day, by toffs like Martin Amis and Wilder and racists like the BNP. Words do violence to humans, more sometimes than sticks and stones. They can disable you to the point of insanity.

Don't get me wrong. More and more freedom is what we must strive for, but a complete lack of restraint leads to anarchy and dehumanisation. Those who react against one set of expressed prejudices should imagine themselves into the pain of others who feel incensed and violated. People like me want to come here to live and breathe freer than we can in our old homelands.

I vehemently object to the way all legitimate questioning of Israel's illegal policies is stamped out and the way minorities try to silence all those who expose community oppression. But freedom is precious and needs to be protected from dictators and censors, and sometimes from itself. That is something even freedom ideologues seem suddenly to understand. Perhaps now the twittering classes will band together to object to Miliband's dirty secrets or stand by racial groups who are needlessly demonised. Just as Gately was.

y.alibhai-brown@independent.co.uk

More from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown

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Massive misapprehension
[info]davidboothroyd wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 11:30 pm (UTC)
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown seems to be under a massive misapprehension that Stephen Fry was arguing for restrictions on free speech. He wasn't: he just exercised his own freedom of speech to criticize it, and encouraged complaints to the Press Complaints Commission. The PCC is a voluntary system which the Daily Mail voluntarily chose to join. Saying that someone has written something vile and offensive is not restricting their freedom of speech.
Re: Massive misapprehension
[info]bfreesun wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 06:01 am (UTC)
Precisely
Re: Massive misapprehension - [info]tallise - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Massive misapprehension - [info]tallise - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Massive misapprehension - [info]freedon4sale - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 05:36 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Massive misapprehension - [info]corporeal_v001 - Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 03:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Be careful what you wish for ...
[info]john_b_ellis wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 12:00 am (UTC)
Come on, Ms Alibhai-Brown, don't let your passion cloud you. The test of free speech is when we're offended. There's nothing to stretch and challenge in merely supporting and cherishing freedom of expression for people with whom you agree, or whose opinions are expressed on issues that are a matter of indifference to you. Your thoughts and views, and mine, are honed, tested and, sometimes, even modified only by people whose expressed views are radically different - even when they seem to hold no validity, because they still constitute a challenge to defend our own. Communities of the essentially like-minded strike no sparks off one another.

And as a whole variety of significant interests groups are liable to be offended by a whole variety of diverse opinions, the logical consequence of what you seem to be advocating could reduce and restrict public debate to the point of virtual platitude.

Not to mention the people for whom freedom of expression is an irritant, to whom, in passing, you allude. They're happy to see any restriction of the freedom of expression, because it can set a trend; and, indeed, a precedent when some future powerful interest group gets round to considering how useful it would be to curb your own right to speak, and the right of those whom you admire.

I hadn't heard of Brendan O'Neill, but I think he has it just about right.
Re: Be careful what you wish for ...
[info]freedon4sale wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:53 pm (UTC)
Am I free to doubt the holocaust? from point of freedom of speech?
I was not their when HITLER do what JEWS say to us!
Re: Be careful what you wish for ... - [info]john_b_ellis - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Be careful what you wish for ... - [info]hagaon - Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 11:35 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Be careful what you wish for ... - [info]freedon4sale - Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 05:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Solomon.
[info]ron_broxted wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 12:30 am (UTC)
Fry cannot make or break anyone, folks do that themselves. "Spiritual America" is a photograph of a topless ten year old. No pudenda visible. Would the censors then ban nipples? Rupert Murdoch would be penniless overnight. As for the substantive charge (B.N.P) I can only quote Woody Allen (Allen Stuart Koningsburg). "Some say we should approach neo-nazis with tolerance and debate. I say approach them with baseball bats and pickaxe handles".
Re: Solomon.
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 11:56 am (UTC)
Of course Woody Allen would say that!

How would he and his good friend Roman Polanski have approached an under-age Brooke Shields?
Re: Solomon. - [info]ron_broxted - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 02:50 pm (UTC) Expand
It is actually you that want to take Fry right to criticize
[info]okimright21 wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 12:33 am (UTC)
Fry has just used his freedom-of speech via twitter.Why it's so difficult for you to see???it is actually you that want to take Fry right to criticize (free speech) a misleading article, but probably due by your islamic culture I doubt you'll understand something so obvious (by the way I'm only exercising my freedom of speech )
Re: It is actually you that want to take Fry right to criticize
[info]maverickbar wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 10:04 pm (UTC)
Precisely. I hate to have to say it but people from immigrant cultures to the UK simply do not understand.

All you have to do is look at the people convicted for electoral fraud in this country in the last two decades.

Virtually all of them were 1st,2nd,3rd generation 'british'.

Since this country doesn't believe in 'melting pot' assimilation it's not surprising that immigrants from alien cultures never seem to get it.
BNP
[info]colinnnnnnnn wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:13 am (UTC)
I agree that The Tate Modern made a good call on the Brooke Sheilds photo. The Nic Griffin thing is a bit more problematical. Some people may find what Griffin says terrible,me. Any Questions is not a court of law, but of opinion. I suppose what you are saying is that Nic Griffin is a hater and haters should not be allowed to express hate. This site says 'offensive or abusive material will be removed'. What you are saying is Nic Griffin will use offensive material and the BBC must not let him. I think Stephen Fry was wrong to be so incensed, The Mail is anti gay. Nobody takes the Mail seriously. Nobody takes Griffin seriously either banning him will just make him stronger.
And words mean what...?
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:17 am (UTC)
Are we then to be afraid of words and allow the shadows to deepen and the speakers of those words grow in power?

The biggest enemy to the BNP is the BNP and it is crucial to allow them to hang themselves on their stupid policies, stupid as in bigotted, ignorant, playing on the fears of the weak of mind but we only allow them choice moments and the people need to see them in full flow, to hear them talking the abject rot that they do and when that happens the shadows will weaken and the BNP will fall by the wayside.

Of course if emboldened, it is more likely that the BNP will actually grow cocksure and utter something definitely worthy of police action.

And it seems the biggest ally right now to the BNP is New Labour who keep handing them more and more ammunition, you would think after Dagenham at least New Labour would have learned a modicum of wisdom but no, it keeps on drawing the public eye to the BNP, giving them plenty of free advertising and media space and then everyone squeals because the BNP seem to be growing apace...

The best thing right now would be to shut the stupid idiots up in this government as a starter...
Obsession
[info]kobi_simpson wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 05:08 am (UTC)
Wow, another YAB article and she throws in the I-word!!
Re: Obsession
[info]sarahab wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:52 pm (UTC)
"I vehemently object to the way all legitimate questioning of Israel's illegal policies is stamped out"
Huh? Not here or at CIF, that's for sure!
The usual
[info]ubergrump wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 05:51 am (UTC)
I don't know how this woman has the brass neck to condemn anti-semitism. Every column she writes stinks of it whatever the topic is supposed to be. As for Stephen Fry having the power to "break" anybody, perhaps she has not been taking her tablets recently.
Re: The usual
[info]bfreesun wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 06:10 am (UTC)
Opposition to Israeli government actions is not ant-semitism and I'm sick of it being descibes as such
The usual - [info]molitor - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC) Expand
YAB
[info]colinnnnnnnn wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 06:02 am (UTC)
Yes, ans she gets well paid for it, we on the other hand.
who chooses what?
[info]panic2009 wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:00 am (UTC)
the bnp have won seats in the eu parliament. horrific, yes. illegal, no. banning them from anywhere gives them increased publicity. do we want that? no. leopards do not change their spots. there is an old saying, "the truth always comes out in the wash". as it will with the bnp. what is everyone so scared of? does the writer think that nick griffins appearance on question time will lead to more people voting for the bnp? he has a right to be there just as any other party member. it's called politics. democracy is democracy and freedom of speech is freedom of speech. if you stop either it is pretty much facism, which by all accounts the writer of this article seems to be very much against.

i personally cant wait for the programme. i think griffin will make a fool of himself and the bbc too. fantastic stuff
[info]jamie129 wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:02 am (UTC)
"Perhaps fundamentalists like Fry will now be more honest and accept that there are limits." This sentence and its source paragraph are based on a silly parody of a free speech advocate's position.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom to speak without being rebuked. I'm not part of Fry's twitterati, but there's a difference between saying someone's views are abhorrent and saying that they should be suppressed. I would have though Fry would be glad that this person had brought their views into the open where they can be roundly criticised. I'm not a totalitarian or a coward, but presumably you wouldn't rather that this subsection of the community festered away, its attitudes unchallenged because the law prevented them from speaking out?
oh dear
[info]ednawelthrorpe wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:07 am (UTC)
you have had most of the weekend to write this and this is the best you can do?

Jan moir is free to write whatever ill though out homophobic nonsense she wants. however the days of the press media being a one way street without the public being able to air their response unless selected by a letters editor has long gone. write rubbish and expect to hear back from the public.

so far charlie brooker and janet street porter are the ones that have really understood the issues here, and written with clarity.
freedom of speech
[info]bill_havelech wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:21 am (UTC)
These articles are not working honey, unless your agenda is to turn away the readers of this newspaper with something that insults our intelligence. I am happy to see fresh ideas from newspapers fighting for survival, like having a muslim write about freedom of speech in the UK. I would understand if this comment doesn’t get posted, I doubt that many people will read it anyway
Re: freedom of speech
[info]freedon4sale wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:13 pm (UTC)
Hopefully, somewhere deep inside, every Jew of conscience knows that this was no war; that this was not God's restitution of the holy land to it rightful owners. We know that a human atrocity was and continues to be perpetuated against an innocent people who couldn't come up with the arms and money to defend themselves against the western powers bent upon their demise as a people.
We cannot continue to say, "But what were we to do?" Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism. I wholly support the rally of the right of return of the Palestinian people. here.
Freedom of speech is not working with PA Mr Abbass! he put anyone why disagree with him in prison till they die or "commit suicide".
anyone survive Israel torture,for sure Abbas finish the job..!
Every week - poor writing
[info]gdvaluesnakeoil wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:28 am (UTC)
"The ship flying the flag for free speech is often unsteady, sometimes leaky, as it sails capricious, tempestuous seas. Sometimes even the captains jump off and struggle to keep faith with its mission. Like the supremely erudite Stephen Fry who has always, to my knowledge, been an uncompromising champion of free expression, keeping watch on deck whatever the provocations."

Not a massive fan of the High Priestess of Victimhood but what really irritates is that such poor writing can appear in a national newspaper. Dull and cliched imagery every week. Whoever gave this woman an MPhil from Oxford is no doubt ruing the day they sullied the name of the Faculty of English Language and Literature. Editor, surely there are more articulate columists than this!
Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ?
[info]freedon4sale wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:28 am (UTC)
Why the freedom of speech always come to save and diverted the people mind away from some thing?
If we have LTM(long term memory) we will remember when Mr.Wilding came to the capital of freedom of speech when Israel did its shameful crimes in Gaza!
Once again Wilder came to the same city(when he win the court case)surprisingly this come when Israel was condemned by Human right in UN..!
Mr.Wilder is close friend to Zionis....
that is why.
Re: Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ?
[info]ganef wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:57 am (UTC)
The semi-literate freedon4sale still has a one-track mind.
Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ?
[info]freedon4sale wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:42 am (UTC)
"Then comes the ghastly Dutch MP Geert Wilder who overturned the order banning him from entering Britain imposed by the former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith. He curses the Koran, damns and insults European Muslims, is a fearless xenophobe and seems to enjoy the hurt he churns up. !"

Would Geert wilder curses "TALMUD"? for what Joshua Ben Noon said about killing every man,child,mother including the fetus in their womb ?
Re: Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ?
[info]ganef wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:45 am (UTC)
"Would Geert wilder curses "TALMUD"? for what Joshua Ben Noon said about killing every man,child,mother including the fetus in their womb ?"

Try as I might, I cannot find any references to this using Google. Please supply one? Noon should be Nun and Ben should be ben, son of.
Re: Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ? - [info]ganef - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:39 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ? - [info]ganef - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Why thre Freedom of "speech chose" chooses its time ? - [info]ganef - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 03:30 pm (UTC) Expand
Pot calling the kettle black.
[info]terryuno wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 07:54 am (UTC)
How on earth can anyone take YAB seriously when she practices such double standards. Every column she writes has an anti-white invective to it. Her last column vilified white racists for not accepting mixed relationships but made no mention of her own community's almost complete reluctance to accept the same.
Re: Pot calling the kettle black.
[info]jimjanja wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 01:22 pm (UTC)
Yes indeed, she seems to spend a lot of time dehumanising the BNP and Geert Wilders, without giving any examples of their alleged 'hate mongering'. Is that because they are not in fact racists and hate mongers but in fact entirely reasonable people who don't wish their cultures over run by immigrants? Clearly if you are looking for the answers to these questions you won't find them here. All YAB seems to do is launch tirades without facts.
Free Speech
[info]siptrunk wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
Free speech is not just the right to express your views. I would argue that the more important aspect of freedom of speech is the freedom for others to express views that you would spend a lifetime fighting against.
Why do the intelligensia and politicians want to silence Nick Griffin. I say give enough rope and let him do the rest.
My reaction to the Daily Mail's article on Steven Gately was at last it will be seen for what it really is. Would I stop them saying what they did absolutely not.
Once you start to legislate against a minority view it is the thin edge of the wedge.
Re: Free Speech
[info]johnclever wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:33 am (UTC)
Yasmin, free speech is an absolute, we either have it or we don't. We cannot be "fair weather democrats" ; expecting views we don't approve of be suppressed. The BNP's views have to be challenged openly, suppression will merely give them greater strength as many have pointed out above. If the BBC banned every so-called "offensive" view then what else could not be aired; views in favour of abortion would offend Catholics, arguments against climate change would upset Greenpeace, extreme religious believers could stop Dawkins having a view etc etc

One other point I would make: not everything can be blamed on the media or politicians. If the great British public is blind, stupid and ignorant enough to vote for the BNP in large numbers then frankly we deserve the catastrophic division and bloodshed that will follow!
Re: Free Speech - [info]sickofstupidity - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech - [info]kleio_caissa - Monday, 2 November 2009 at 07:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech - [info]ganef - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:52 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech - [info]john_b_ellis - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 10:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech - [info]ganef - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 11:44 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Free Speech - [info]john_b_ellis - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 01:22 pm (UTC) Expand
The art of
[info]astrid_h wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:17 am (UTC)
"Words do violence to humans, more sometimes than sticks and stones."

Absolutely agree. Well written and well argued. It is not a difference of opinion which we should shy away from, it's the way we express those differences without any concern for the other person's feelings. Why? It should be considered an art to express oneself without denigrating another.
Over-identifying
[info]liamvirgil wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:25 am (UTC)
Much as I respect the OP I think that this viewpoint, which she has already outlined several times, derives from her own unfortunate experience of being harrassed by a nutter in the street. Words certainly cannot disable anyone. Who cares what some idiot on the internet thinks?
And Stephen Fry can't make or break anyone. He's just a comic actor who can read long words from a script in an amusing way, not Voltaire for god's sake.
Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years
[info]margaretdavies wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:26 am (UTC)
Freedom of speech has for years been used to insult the white British population by equating patriotism with racism. Its about time someone stood up for us.
(no subject) - [info]amberspyglas666 - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years - [info]margaretdavies - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]amberspyglas666 - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 02:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years - [info]margaretdavies - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 03:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years - [info]rjd8 - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 01:47 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years - [info]faircomment - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 10:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Indigenous Britains Insulted For Years - [info]freedon4sale - Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 06:57 pm (UTC) Expand
Freedom of speech
[info]angela91210 wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 08:50 am (UTC)
Get your facts right, Yasmin, otherwise desist your scribblings.

"Hitler won the votes of the majority." No, he didn't. Not ever. He won rather over 30% at best in the early 1930s, enough to divide and conquer an already fractured political scene, using strong-arm tactics (physically) to complete his job.

"So why then didn't Wilder accept any of the invitations from Muslim intellectuals to debate his ideas in public?" Perhaps because some of those "intellectuals" speak on behalf of self-elected Muslim quangos to whom he does not feel the need to explain himself.

"I vehemently object to the way all legitimate questioning of Israel's illegal policies is stamped out." Are you for real? Go on the Guardian website, and you will see Caryl Churchill's play Seven Jewish Children flagged up without appropriate response, with its 'connection' between the Jews - Jews, mark you, not merely Israelis - as the victims of Nazi genocide becoming the oppressors of the modern Middle East.

Already I can hear you think of me as a reactionary. Not so. I consider your article, with its lazy, knee-jerk mindset left over from earlier decades to betray the really reactionary stance.




Re: Freedom of speech
[info]john_b_ellis wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 11:10 am (UTC)
Another argument for PR?! Though I don't know what electoral system Weimar Germany had ...

Seriously, though, we've had parties proclaim a ringing mandate based on not much more than 30% of the actual votes cast, and not much more than 20% of the potential vote when you take into account qualified electors who didn't vote.

So, however remote its current chances, theoretically, under "first past the post", the BNP might not ultimately have such a mountain to climb to achieve electoral success ... ?
Re: Freedom of speech - [info]freedon4sale - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 04:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Homophobic ?
[info]mwreid wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:00 am (UTC)
Homophobic.

What does it mean ?

Fear of men ?

Not by any stretch of the imagination can ''homophobic'' mean anti homosexual.

Or am I wrong ?
(no subject) - [info]amberspyglas666 - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Homophobic ? - [info]john_b_ellis - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 10:59 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]amberspyglas666 - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 11:10 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Homophobic ? - [info]tim_hinchliffe - Monday, 19 October 2009 at 03:16 pm (UTC) Expand
She's got form
[info]rufusred wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:11 am (UTC)
And since when has racist, monothematic, professional victim YAB given a monkey's about homophobia? Condemned it? Come on YAB, what have you got to say about the gay man kicked to death in Trafalgar Square last week while homophobic abuse was (freely!) screamed at him? If this man had died as the result of racist abuse it's a pretty safe bet we wouldn't have been spared a rant about how all white people are racist murders blah blah. Oh, and YAB, only straight people call gay people 'gays'. Gay is an adjective (Every DPhil always hides a few gaps..)
Re: She's got form
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC)
"Oh, and YAB, only straight people call gay people 'gays'. Gay is an adjective "

If we are being politically correct, then yes, you are right - 'gay' is an adjective, and should never be turned into a noun, because this conveys the same rather simplifying and derogatory overtones that the heterosexual equivalent, 'straights', does.

The problem with rejecting 'gays' as a collective noun is that one must then replace it with 'gay men, lesbian women, bisexual and transgender people', which is a bit of a mouthful (although bisexual people, because they are the least visible and least persecuted, seldom feel the need to identify themselves as a political grouping, and transgender people might object to the implication that their condition also implies something about their sexual preferences, which is not always the case).

'GLBT' (or 'LGBT') is a convenient contraction of this, except that people might not know what it stands for if they are not conversant with the language of sexual diversity politics - which is the (disinterested heterosexual) majority, I suspect.

The terms 'parasexual and 'paraphile' already have specific medical connotations not related to homosexuality, so we can't use these either (their straight rquivalent being 'orthosexual' and 'orthophile' presumably). All the other collective nouns for non-heterosexuals are generally offensively to one degree or another, usually deliberately, so these are also ruled out.

All this basically reveals how complicated the whole area of human sexual and gender identity really is, and how any attempt to capture it with mere language always runs the risk of causing offence, however unintended.

Perhaps the simplest, and most inoffensive terms would be 'sexual majority' for the heterosexual population, and 'sexual minorities' for the rest, though I'm sure that even these terms could be seen as implying certain contentious value judgements.
Re: She's got form - [info]freedon4sale - Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 06:37 pm (UTC) Expand
DavidMWW
[info]davidmww wrote:
Monday, 19 October 2009 at 09:19 am (UTC)
"Muslims, Asians and Black people"

Note the odd one out.
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