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Leading article: Mass arrests have no place in a democratic country

The police must use their pre-emptive powers with extreme care

More than 100 people were detained before the power plant protest

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More than 100 people were detained before the power plant protest

There are times, and they seem to be growing more frequent, when the civil liberties we still associate with life in Britain suddenly start to look dangerously fragile. Yesterday was one such occasion. We woke up to the news that 114 people had been arrested on suspicion of conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass and criminal damage. This deserves to be spelled out. More than 100 people were arrested in the Sneinton Dale area of Nottingham not for committing an offence, but for allegedly planning to do so. In other words, they were arrested pre-emptively.

Now pre-emptive arrests may sometimes be justified: for instance, if there is evidence that an act of terrorism or other major life-threatening crime is nearing execution. But the evidence has to be persuasive, and it is often hard to convince a jury that a conspiracy to commit a crime existed, as acquittals under such circumstances show. People tend to be uncomfortable with the idea that someone can be arrested before a crime has been committed – and rightly so. It smacks of totalitarian regimes and the thought police.

The full facts of the Nottingham case have not been easy to assemble. But what is not disputed is that a large number of officers swooped on school premises where a meeting was in progress after midnight. A police spokesman said they found "specialist equipment" at the site and believed there was a serious threat to the coal-fired power station at Radcliffe-on-Soar.

An early assumption was that the school was the rendezvous point for a protest planned by climate change activists. The police described the operation as "intelligence-led", fuelling suspicions that the group might have been infiltrated. A city councillor said that if police had information that there was some kind of danger to the East Midlands power supply, then they needed to take action.

Yet however the raid came about, it should prompt questions. There is in this country, as in most democratic states, a right – express or implied – to free assembly. The mass arrest of more than 100 people gathered in the same place comes perilously close to infringing on that freedom.

There is also, and always must be, freedom to protest. The police made their arrests, citing conspiracy to commit aggravated trespass and criminal damage. The councillor hazarded that the planned action might have endangered the power supply across the region. The reference to equipment doubtless had a purpose, too.

But, if we have learned anything in recent months and years, it is that early accounts by police spokesmen to justify particular actions are not always to be relied upon. We saw this only 10 days ago after the death of Ian Tomlinson during the 1 April protests in the City of London. The police account of what happened in Nottingham in the early hours of Monday morning needs to be treated with similar rigour. Simply planning, or engaging in, a protest is not, and should never be, a reason for arrest.

The policing of climate change protests has often left a bitter taste. A Liberal Democrat report on the policing of last year's climate camp, at Kingsnorth power station in Kent, condemned the vast police operation for tactics designed to intimidate and provoke. At power stations, as at airports, conflicting rights and interests converge: the commercial rights of the owners and operators, the rights of the paying customer, and the right of protesters to make their case. If our civil liberties are to be preserved, the right to protest is as important as the other two.

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Thank you for saying so.
[info]imogenlucy wrote:
Monday, 13 April 2009 at 11:48 pm (UTC)

What with this and the attacks on Ian Tomlinson and on G20 protesters, the requirement to obtain permission to protest within a mile of parliament, the new law against photographing police, over 1000 deaths in police custody in the last 30 years, mass surveillance of all our communications and travel, the impending ID cards which they have admitted they would like to make compulsory, the huge databases storing all our personal details, the 20 trillian CCTV cameras which, strangely, seem to show no footage when the police may be at fault .... one could be forgiven for thinking that Britain is no longer a place that is safe or free.

And who actually still believes the old "terrorism" story? A lie sold to justify heaps of repressive anti-democratic laws, which will probably now be used against these activists.


Re: Thank you for saying so.
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:55 am (UTC)
We need to do what the Red Shirts have been doing in Thailand. Same problem: democracy has been destroyed and they want a fight.
Re: Thank you for saying so. - [info]nickalito - Friday, 17 April 2009 at 04:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Thank you for saying so. - [info]tominlondon - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC) Expand
i disagree
[info]dangriff wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 01:31 am (UTC)
I live the area concerned i am glad this has happened. Whilst i respect their opinion they however respect no other opinion to the point whereby they believe they have the right to stop or prevent others from living by their values. thats fascism. The first to cry censorship and the first to instigate it when they have any amount of power.
Re: i disagree
[info]billybobber1 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 02:25 am (UTC)
gay gay gay gay!
Re: i disagree - [info]comradekaff - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:00 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]billybobber1 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 02:35 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]jeanshaw - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 06:12 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:21 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]thomasth - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 03:41 am (UTC) Expand
Caught in the act v 'conspiracy' - [info]cronyblatcher - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:16 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Caught in the act v 'conspiracy' - [info]shoelauncher - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:51 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Caught in the act v 'conspiracy' - [info]sportingmac - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:03 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Caught in the act v 'conspiracy' - [info]ancientoneuk - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:18 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]colinru - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]tominlondon - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:56 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]ebbi581 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:04 am (UTC) Expand
Re: i disagree - [info]bowesy - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:10 am (UTC) Expand
direct action is not fascism - [info]brightbird1 - Wednesday, 15 April 2009 at 03:01 pm (UTC) Expand
re above
[info]jonpaulr wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 04:44 am (UTC)
It seems to me the protestors weern't arrested for protesting but under the criminal attempts act of beleiveing to be about to commit criminal danmage

it the last 41 year there have been a 1000 deths in cutsody not 30 years
as for not believing that in ademocracy this action should take placeif there was a gang of organised pick pockets meeting ina warehouse to plan their morning job and were jst about to do it if the police swooped in and nicked them ,are you saying in a democracy that the polcie should n't do such a big job all at once
re: 'shouldn't do their job'
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:21 am (UTC)
By no means - starting with conspiracy to perpetrate illegal aggressive war, there is prima facie evidence of the crime, for perpetration of which the Nuremberg defendants were hanged. Mis/malfeasance in office is also a prosecutable offence and conspiracy to perpetrate is also - punishable by up to life imprisonment.
lawful protest yes but this was not going to be lawful
[info]jeanshaw wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 06:10 am (UTC)
I am all for lawful protest e.g the marches against G20, the Countryside Alliance marches but this was clearly going to be direct action protest and as such should be stopped.
A minority ,however vocal , has no right to stop by violent means a lawful activity which is necessary for the majority of us. This group are similar in outlook to the extreme left animal rights activists as they believe right is on their side and anyone who disagrees with their approach is consigned to the outer darkness. Fortunately the animal rights activists are now in jail and this is where this bunch should go.
Re: lawful protest yes but this was not going to be lawful
[info]sara_sense wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:01 am (UTC)
Jean, it would appear that you are one of the group who gives unquestioning belief that what the police say is correct. That is the problem. Even when they have been shown to lie on several occasions to save their own bacon ('scuse the pun) and justify their heavy handed actions.

Just to be clear, what you are saying with regards to your 'they should be in prison' comment is that these people should be locked up for doing, literally, nothing.
Climate protest arrests
[info]throbgoblins wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 06:11 am (UTC)
Wire cutters are now classed as WMDs ?
[info]johnsmith007 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC)
Thw weapon of mass destruction found in the search was a pair of wire cutters. We can all now get a good night's sleep, we have been saved once again from this Global threat.
Re: Wire cutters are now classed as WMDs ?
[info]contrastcolour wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:10 am (UTC)
I had a very strong feeling when I read the words "specialist equipment" that the equipment in question would turn out to be as mundane as a pair of wire cutters. I'm just glad it wasn't my first suspicion, that it would just be some wooden poles with boards attached to them, commonly used to disseminate opinions over a wide area in a scatter pattern.

But yes, this is a very worrying development. Yes, think "1984", or "Minority Report": pre-emptive arrests only serve to further entrenched power interests.
Politicians are to blame
[info]ptstroud wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:49 am (UTC)
I am afraid the government and official opposition have brought this situation on themselves by their own acceptance of beliefs of extreme environmentalists. Just a few weeks ago they allowed Dr James Hansen head of the NASA GISS into the UK to address an anti coal protest meeting and encourage direct action. Whether or not you believe in anthropogenic global warming, Hansen's views are becoming more and more shrill. For example he has told Obama that he has only four years to save the world from a catastrophic run away rise in global temperature. Yet we all know that there has been no increase in global temperatures for ten years and recently other scientists from NASA have discovered that half of the late twentieth century warming in the US was natural. Furthermore, some US NOAA scientists have forecast a decadal cooling phase.

Earlier Hansen acted as an expert defence witness at the trial for criminal damage by Green Peace activists at the Kingsnorth power station and was supported by Zac Goldsmith the Tory environmental adviser.

If the arrested activists were planning to disrupt power output from this station then it is tantamount to an conspiring in an act of terrorism, and Hansen must take some responsibility. Furthermore, how was it that protesters got access to a publicly funded school?

Danish and German experiences with wind power are disappointing to say the least and they have had to continue with coal fired generation to offset the variability of wind power. The UK is approaching a dire shortage of electrical power and it will be years before nuclear power stations come on line. Therefore it is necessary that some more coal fired generators are constructed as a stop gap.

The politicians cannot go on praising Hansen and his ilk by accepting the more extreme views of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change if they wish to keep the lights burning in what might be a rather cool period.


You're p.ssing into a stiff breeze pal
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:10 pm (UTC)
and not only massively outvoted but massively outvoted by pertinent specialists who disown a small minority of cerebral prostitutes
How long before people start to disappear?
[info]sunday1morning wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:50 am (UTC)
I don't believe a word of what the police say any more.

They confiscated someone's SOAP at Kingsnorth and tried to claim it was about to be used for something nefarious....yeah right. They raid the kitchen and claim they've found knives.....

Pre-emptive arrests, very dangerous territory. We have freedom no more.

They will come at night and take your loved ones, under the pretext that they might possibly be about to do something wrong.

I really never thought that this could happen here, but after Kingsnorth, the G20 and now this, where they always come at night, normally with violence, it's Orwellian, I'm sure most South Americans and Eastern Europeans will recognise this behaviour.
Power station terrorists
[info]rooster281 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:53 am (UTC)
Protest is one thing, sabotage of public services is quite another, especially when the rationale for their actions are based on such misguided information about the impact of fossil fuels on the climate.
"terrorists" - err...
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 08:18 am (UTC)
'scuse one, somehow managed to miss a (presumed) substabtiated report about "terrorist .. sabotage" having been committed. Pls point to your source, there's a sweetie.
Re: Power station terrorists - [info]sara_sense - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:09 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Power station terrorists - [info]colinru - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:14 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Power station terrorists - [info]tominlondon - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:43 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]doug_piranha wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 08:27 am (UTC)
I sympathise with the tone of the article - and would support peoples' right to protest , of course.
I have been at many "famous" protests in the 60s and 70s.

But you do have to get the facts right before you get up on that high horse -
it's long way down if you fall off that big old nag !

Conspircay IS a crime - I make no comment on whether they were conspiring or not.
Dont' we all applaud if the police can prove they actually prevented a crime,
instead of turning up a day late ?

It always makes me smile when people are willing to break the law - because of their " beliefs" -
but then immediately demand the protection of the law. All a little selective isn't it ?

I can remember people moaning about the police banging their shields in the Notting Hill riots
( oo err ! ) and yet supporting people who threw bricks (??)

Direct action is - as someone says - a type of fascism. If you believe in something strongly enough -
and you think you are right - you have to campaign and convince other people .

Direct action is a symptom of lazy, middle class frustration.
It's counter productive - just ask the people in the street .
forget politicians and newspapers, just ask the people if this type of action makes them feel strongly about environmental issues -!!

revolutionary it ain't !
[info]sara_sense wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:13 am (UTC)
Conspiracy is defined to be a secret agreement between two or more people to commit an unlawful act. The police should really be able to prove that an unlawful act was going to be commited, because protesting or holding assembly is not unlawful.
(no subject) - [info]uanime5 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:38 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]sara_sense - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:55 pm (UTC) Expand
WHAT PROTEST?
[info]zanulabour wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:03 am (UTC)
I suppose they have all the evidence they need,after all some one was talking about protesting at a power plant,I think.
On the way to dictatorship
[info]ariadne2102 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:17 am (UTC)
I completely agree with what is being said and as previously stated thanks for pointing this out. It's extremely worrying when you think of the security infrastructure that this country possesses. If ever there was a political coup in this country, the potential dictator would have all the tools to arrest the 'subversives'. They are talking about monitoring facebook, msn etc. Why? And why should the population accept this? It is unthinkable! The same goes for these mass arrest and constant reminders to the population that one of these days we will be attacked by terrorists. So what's new, it's pathetic coming from a country which was always under threat from the IRA only a few decades ago! Everything that is fed to people is pure propaganda and the incident mentioned in this article is the same, it sends the message: if you don't agree with things we do, you shouldn't protest, you should just accept and don't you dare have an opinion...

It makes me very sad that this is the very country where in the 70s people were protesting constantly so their voices could be heard, then Thatcher came and what we read and see now is a direct result of the destruction of the country's soul. At least there are still people planning protests, even if they do get arrested...
[info]adhrose wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:21 am (UTC)
I feel that this is a disturbing Minority Report style of policing. Can we look forward to everyone with a driving licence being arrested if they drink too much at home? One positive is the climate change protesters are probably getting more publicity than they otherwise would.
[info]sara_sense wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:29 am (UTC)
That happened to my brother. He clipped a curb and an idiot reported him to the police. Two hours later on a friday night they turn up at his house (where he had had some beers with friends) and they arrested him for being over the limit. Unbelievable.
Drunk in the vicinity - [info]tominlondon - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Bring out the liver salts.
[info]blastarrbxiii wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:25 am (UTC)
Suspicion of conspiracy to commit loitering near a pedestrian crossing will be another arrestable offence soon. [As R. Atkinson would say].
Out comes the DNA swabs, another 100+ new files on the 'Subversive' database.

Totalitarian Britain, Fascist Britain.
Both liebour and the Police are all part of it.
One using the other, with us the public coming out the worse for it.

Not a Police state?, it is when this sort of thing starts....but where does it end?

I've had enough of it,
this Country needs a complete 'flush out' of it's system from top to bottom,
including the Politicians and the Police, especially them.
There is only one Political party that will do this.

Harman et al, are almost 'performing a bowel motion' just thinking about them, very much scared of them.
Even the majority of the Police are!!.
What these two institutions have been up to against the British Public needs reconciling.

Bring out the liver salts, come June we might get our first taste!.
[info]ajwimble wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:38 am (UTC)
To my mind it is wrong to arrrest someone simply for attending a meeting, regardless of what the meeting was about. Even if some individuals at the meeting were advocating illegal action, that is not the same as evidence that everyone at the meeting was planning illegal actions. It is quite likely that some people there could in favour of a legal protest, which is their democratic right, and had no intention in taking part in or even supporting any illegal activities.

The arrests that tok place can only be justified if there was evidence that every single indivudual arrested was planning to take part in an illegal act. Otherwise it is a large step down the very dangerous road of guilt by association,
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:46 pm (UTC)
Do you really believe that people who attended a meeting to plan an illegal act were going to protest legally? They were there because they wanted to act illegally. Just because a lot of people were involved does not mean that most were innocent.
If this was a democracy the moaners may have a point!!
[info]glennin wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:39 am (UTC)
As long as we leave it to small groups to protest against the headlong rush over the social, political, environmental and economic cliff the UK is heading for, people will always say 'oh its small groups forcing their agenda down our throats' etc. Obviously, the whole idea of democracy is that people are INFORMED and make choices. In this country the truth is kept a million miles away from Joe Public by big corporate interests (biznss, media etc) so sometimes we have to trust 'specialists in the field' to make a judgement and sometimes to make a stand for us. To those moaning about this - how about getting off your own arses and doing something about the creeping police state instead of slagging off those who do?
big brother can see you
[info]garydumbill wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:47 am (UTC)
red tape labour have robbed us of our civil liberties. soon you will have to have a useless and expensive ID card to prove who you are. I already know who i am thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbRL5YGZ3tI&feature=channel_page
They had better be right!
[info]hodgeey wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:47 am (UTC)
The police will need to demonstrate that there was a real and immediate threat to the public to justify their having taken such action.

If they cannot, then there will need to be an inquiry at all levels, as the police will have committed the offence of illegal arrest and imprisonment.
Re: They had better be right!
[info]themartindale wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:37 am (UTC)
Looks like we could solve the unemployment problem (2m and counting...) at a stroke with all the extra people needed to sit on all these inquiries we're going to need?
Suggesting that some people
[info]larkspur_14 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:05 am (UTC)
are more deserving of assault by the police than others surely also has no place in a democracy. You should tell your editor-at-large, who seems to think that newspaper sellers with alcohol problems who live in bail hostels are "asking for it".
conspiracy
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:15 am (UTC)
in law the actus reus, (the prohibited act)of conspiracy is the agreement if x, y and z agree to omit a crime on a given day then they HAVE committed a crime by agreeing.
with respect to the writer of the article, the function of the police is to keep the peace and prevent crime not catch criminals AFTER they have omitted it, better to prevent a murder than catch a murderer
Re: conspiracy
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 04:48 pm (UTC)
also 'with respect' , as I have already said : what about evident conspiracy to perpetrate aggressive war, misuse taxes to prop up economic crime syndicates, etcetera.

If major conspiracies were prosecuted, the the small fry would not fall into the (prepared) 'conspiracy' trap, becauae they would not be driven to 'conspire' against an anti-democratic fascist State that has concocted enough defensive 'laws' (aka traps) to prosecute almost any and all of of for 'conspiracy'.
Re: conspiracy - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: conspiracy - [info]bowesy - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: conspiracy - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: conspiracy - [info]bowesy - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:06 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: conspiracy - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:29 pm (UTC) Expand
The good old days.
[info]llienomot wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:21 am (UTC)
Remember the good old days, when after every demonstration of popular dissatisfaction with the government of the day (CND, poll tax etc) there would be a loud chorus from the right about how luck the demonstrators were? Oh, that familiar refrain, how lucky to be allowed to demonstrate, how lucky not to be arrested, how lucky not to live in a police state. Not forgetting the loudest cry of all, brave men died on foreign fields to secure these rights.
Where are these voices now? Is this what they secretly wanted all along?
Re: The good old days.
[info]cruise4 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:06 am (UTC)
Democracy is tyranny. The idiot ruling the wise. Slaves that don't know they are slaves don't revolt and you are all slaves and liking it. Mind controlled by TV, MSM, Magazines, Books and the mis-education department. Poisoned with additives, sprays, vaccines. Fooled into an economic system that is actually a scam, voting for false parties who give an illusion of choice, but the agenda continues regardless. Free energy is a reality. They keep getting killed or threatened. CO2 Global warming is TOTAL nonsense and is easily disproved. Terror is carried out by the Controllers and the Secret Service minions. The Police are the mob enforcers for a criminal gang. It's not protest we need, it's wholesale jailing of the establishment and this latest keystome Cops affair just shows what a bunch of traitors all these scum are. Keep being idiots... you are to be amongst the first to be taken out in the coming eugenics sweep and I hope you remember how you voted for these filthy disgusting humans (perhaps).
Re: The good old days. - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:18 pm (UTC) Expand
Just thinking about it...
[info]jimmiethe1 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 10:51 am (UTC)
I'm no legela expert, but I always thought it was an offence to plan to commit a criminal act> And I don't mean just fanatsizing or wishful thinking, but to gather together to constructively plan how to go about said nefarious deed(s).
That being so, I'd certainly expect the police, if they have foreknowledge of such a conspicracy, to arrest said conspirators. nad not just where Ratcliffe/Sora os concerned, but if they had good reason (aka intelligence) that a group of bad men were planning to do me or my familiy harm. In fcat I think I'd thank them for their prescience. Wouldn't you?
Re: Just thinking about it...
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC)
it is an offence to agree to commit a crime if the plan includes an agreement to do acts which are crimes that is a conspiracy and hence crime
Re: Just thinking about it... - [info]bowesy - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:01 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Just thinking about it... - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Just thinking about it... - [info]bowesy - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 09:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Well done Independent
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:11 am (UTC)
It seems to me this paper is beginning to get where it should be, its original remit when it first started publishing...

The police are acting very much out of control and something has to stop it, the last time we were in a position like this was back in the eighties and it took a week of mass rioting to force the government to rein in the police and that lasted pretty well until Blair took over.

I think conspiracy cases are very Orwellian, we have a situation where the judge (a mason) is more inclined to believe a policeman (a mason) than the eco-warrior in the dock, the judge has the power to direct and steer the case and not because the police are to be trusted, to be believed in but because they are the police despite the fact that statistically, the police having lied and covered up so many times are the last people to trust to tell the truth.

But what next for Britain? Are we going to see the 4 weapon pointed, razor wired camps outside London be used at some point? Is Alan Moore's vision of a 21st Century Britain going to materialise?

Mass arrests are the tool of the fascist, as Cronyblatcher says, the banana republic, not the tools of the founder of modern democracy, law and justice.

But as Britain and America found in Iraq and Afghanistan, they will find out so here, that they are their best recruiting sergeants for opposition and currently there are 114 families out there with anti-state malevolence and it will grow...
Re: Well done Independent
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:31 pm (UTC)
fortunately judges do not decide all criminal cases, with some exceptions all common law offences are triable by jury at the option of the defendant. trial by jury IS YOUR ONLY protection from an over mighty executive and Zanulabour in cahoots with the fascist cabal in the home office wish to abolish your right to elect to be tried by your peers(jury) OONLY the Tories are adamant that it must be preserved
YOU CAN ONLY GET A FAIR TRIAL WITH A JURY and a good fair judge- who gives a toss if he's a mason?
Re: Well done Independent - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:33 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Well done Independent - [info]ancientoneuk - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Well done Independent - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Risks
[info]forlonehope wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC)
The author of this piece and some of those commenting, seem to have little idea of the nature of a large power station. These are machines which generate large quantities of high pressure steam and use it to produce massive amounts of electricity at very high voltage. While it may be great fun to break into the site, this is to put the protesters, the operators and the general public at very severe risk. The idea that the police should wait for this to happen before acting is ludicrous. People who get a thrill out of this type of protest are the worst enemies of real action to address climate change. They are masturbating their consciences in public and as a direct result allowing the issue to be written off as the concern of irresponsible cranks. This nonsense has to stop. Climate change will only be dealt with by scientists and engineers supported by a well developed economic framework.
Re: Risks
[info]hodgeey wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:32 pm (UTC)
You obviously believe that there was a imminent threat to break in to the power station; we shall see.

Unfortunately, climate change will not be dealt with by scientists or engineers even with a well developed framework, any more than anything else is. Climate change will be ignored by politicians, business and the media; mother nature will take care of it and our species will suffer along with the rest
Re: Risks - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 05:43 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Risks - [info]vhawk1951 - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:50 pm (UTC) Expand
Freedom of Assembly
[info]asurbanipal wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 11:13 am (UTC)
You write "The mass arrest of more than 100 people gathered in the same place comes perilously close to infringing that freedom". Try to be a little less mealy-mouthed about it. The police action is nothing more nor less than a blatant infringement of a democratic right. Daily the country is being edged closer and closer to fascist totalitarianism; mainly by the police. Is that what the English want ? Time to wake-up and consider effective alternatives.
Re: Freedom of Assembly
[info]climatewarrior wrote:
Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 12:01 pm (UTC)
"The author of this piece and some of those commenting, seem to have little idea of the nature of a large power station. These are machines which generate large quantities of high pressure steam and use it to produce massive amounts of electricity at very high voltage."

That may be true of some of those commenting, on all sides, but not all. Some of us do know what such places are like.

"While it may be great fun to break into the site, this is to put the protesters, the operators and the general public at very severe risk."

The evidence is that nobody intending to enter such a place for climate change reasons thinks it is fun. They would rather the government was doing something effective on climate change, in which case they could get on with doing other things. Instead they place themselves in some danger because of the threat of climate change. Protestors may endanger themselves, but that is their choice. The protestors understand what the mechanical and electrical risks are. They are very careful to minimise the risk, but it can never be reduced to zero.

The operators and general public are not put at any measurable risk by protestors, let alone very severe risk. Why not back up your assertion by telling us what very severe risks the protestors cause the operators and general public?

Re: Freedom of Assembly - [info]colinru - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 01:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Freedom of Assembly - [info]powerengineer - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 04:38 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Freedom of Assembly - [info]ancientoneuk - Tuesday, 14 April 2009 at 07:35 pm (UTC) Expand
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