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Leading article: The only way forward

This newspaper opened up an important debate last week with the call for British troops to be withdrawn from combat duty in Afghanistan. Public opinion supported the initial deployment of a small number of soldiers to help secure the country after the fall of the Taliban eight years ago. For most of the time since then, the British people have been prepared to give the mission the benefit of the doubt. But over the past year those doubts have grown, and our ComRes opinion poll today reveals that opposition to the deployment has reached a critical level: 71 per cent of those questioned last week agreed with The Independent on Sunday's argument that we should begin a phased withdrawal, "the aim being the end of combat operations within a year or so".

The state of public opinion is not, in itself, a sufficient reason for pulling out. We have argued our case for the winding down of combat operations because we believe it to be in the national and global interest. But it is also true that a military engagement abroad cannot – and indeed should not – be sustained indefinitely without solid support at home. It says something, furthermore, about the quality of the arguments made by political leaders and military experts, that they are unable to persuade the general public. No doubt, the advocates of "seeing it through" would say that this is because their case is complex: there are many links in the chain of reasoning, from firefights with the Taliban in the desert ranges of Helmand to safer streets in British towns and cities. But it is equally possible that some of those links are weak and unconvincing, or outweighed by other factors, and that the common sense of the non-expert is often a sounder guide to policy. It was, after all, the same politicians and experts who got Iraq so wrong.

In order to test these arguments, we have dedicated most of the coverage in our news and comment sections to examining the case for and against the phased pullback of British forces. Our readers, like the British public generally, are overwhelmingly opposed to what we described last Sunday as this ill-conceived, unwinnable and counterproductive war. Their elected representatives, on the other hand, tend to hold to positions previously adopted. Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, has been brave enough to admit that Barack Obama's adjustment of US strategy is the last chance to make the Nato intervention work – and that, if it cannot be pulled around, "withdrawal will become the only option". But it is not clear how or when Mr Clegg would make that judgement.

There is a similar division of opinion among the military. The commanders in the field and in Whitehall support the mission and say that the war is winnable. Rank-and-file soldiers, on the other hand, tend to be much more sceptical. Historians tend to be most sceptical of all. James Fergusson points out today that, although the Nato intervention is different from the Russian one of the 1980s, it is not that different.

Since last week, when we became the only newspaper to call for an end to combat operations, the reaction to our stand has reinforced our conviction that this is the right course. But there was one response that requires a direct reply – the suggestion that our editorial stance somehow showed a lack of respect for our troops. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Independent on Sunday was the first to press the Government to honour the terms of the Military Covenant, which acknowledges that our troops and their families are entitled to support, especially the equipment and medical care that they need, in return for risking their lives.

There is no contradiction between a free debate about war aims and wholehearted support of, and admiration for, the troops who have to carry out the orders decided by a democratic government. That is why we welcome Gordon Brown's willingness to engage with the arguments, as he did with a new fluency on the radio last Friday, and as he intends to do at the Mansion House tomorrow. And we are not naive about the calculations of crude interest that make a British prime minister reluctant to jog the elbow of an American president.

But we hope that, the more there is an open debate about the Nato role in Afghanistan, the more likely it is that Mr Brown will use the opportunity of Mr Obama's forthcoming announcement to scale back the British contribution to this ill-conceived, unwinnable and counterproductive mission. We believe it is the only way forward.

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Comments

War, terror and Immigration
[info]dinerouk9 wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 08:00 am (UTC)
So the war in Afghanistan is to stop terror on our streets, eh? HYPOCRISY and FLIM-FLAM! If this government was so frightened of this, then they should have done something 12 years ago about the people they allowed in the UK!

According to interviews conducted by NEWSNIGHT with people who worked on the 'coal face' of immigration desks, entry was granted merely on knowledge of the person above them who would made the decision. 'If it was so and so, one said, you knew they would probably go through', so we waved them through'. As it stands, we don't know who the thousands are? where they are and what they are doing now?
Re: War, terror and Immigration
[info]frase33 wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 10:27 am (UTC)
The problem is, once you admit defeat, your "punching above your weight" days are over
[info]find_empire wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 08:09 am (UTC)
Defeat in Afghanistan was a major factor in bringing down the Soviet block, which was already beset with serious economic problems and rumbles of dissent in Eastern Europe. The Yank block is similarly beset with rumbles of dissent in its former Monroe Doctrine latifundia of Latin America, its nuke-bombed-into-submission vassal Japan, etc. Its economic model - liberal Anglo-US capitalism - is in tatters. It needs a major military defeat like a hole in the head. For weak and fragile Britain, whose nulabour misadventure has brought the country to its knees, the consequences of defeat would be even more immediate and catastrophic than for the US.

However, defeat is not an option, it's a mathematical certainty. As Ehud Barak said, your only choice is the size of your humiliation. Do Brits want to see Taliban flags flying over their miserable little sand-bag outposts in Helmand? Do they want to see British corpses dragged behind Taliban trucks? Or would they prefer to stick it out until they have a full-scale re-enactment of the Kyber Pass, with piles of British bodies covering the landscape? Your choice.
okay but don't think this will help
[info]londonrebel wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 09:17 am (UTC)
“I always believe Islam is terrorism. We are told to terrorise the enemies of Islam,” he said. “The world will become a dangerous place. Everybody had better start embracing Islam or people will start flying planes into buildings again.”

This is from Khalid Kelly, an Irish convert to Islam, currently training in the Swat Valley, as reported in today's The Times. With this kind of indoctrination going on, it's only a matter of time before a full-scale global war commences. Mark my words.....

Re: okay but don't think this will help
[info]charlesdanwood wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 12:19 pm (UTC)

"Khalid Kelly, an Irish convert to Islam". Best Irish joke I've heard since the one about "Green Adair"
Terrorism
[info]amvet wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 11:09 am (UTC)
Most acts of terrorism are revenge for something done to the group doing the terrorism, but that is not to be discussed.
Utter waffle, What is the truth?
[info]proximaking wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 11:58 am (UTC)
A lot of waffle. NATO has lost and that is without the Taliban getting access to air missiles that work against NATO aircraft. All this thought should have been written down before NATO became embroiled there. Where was the Indy leader saying that America had no right chasing anyone in Afghanistan when it was and is as clear as the noses on their faces who planned and enacted 911.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

When are British and American troops going to attack the real enemy within?
Re: Utter waffle, What is the truth?
[info]charlesdanwood wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 12:26 pm (UTC)

Not while AIPAC pulls the strings my friend.
Childish nonsense
[info]popskihaynes wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)
Whilst I agree that we shouldn't be there and the sooner we can leave, the better, getting out will not be as simple as this daft editorial suggests.

To make the statement that over 70 percent of people polled want us out is all well and good, probably the same number would want capital punishment bought back, 99 percent would like to go to Heaven but very few would want to die ! All the usual BS and you cannot run any policy, let alone a war based upon the random thoughts of people in an opinion poll, next week X Factor or Strictly Come Dancing will be uppermost in their minds.

The most dangerous thing happening right now is the US President dithering and being indecisive, that will cost many American and British lives, the Islamic Militants including the Taliban keep a watching brief on all Western Media, they are fully in touch with our Zeitgeist and know exactly what strings to pull to demoralise Western public opinion as the Madrid bombings carefully timed just before a Spanish General Election demonstrated. The result was better than 9-11 for them, change of Government and an immediate withdrawal from Iraq.

Personally I hope that for once and all, Americans get the message - No Nation Building ever again in the future. Obama should announce a reinforcement of 40,000 extra troops for Afghanistan phased in over 2010 and, never deploy them. In the meantime, he should get on with mapping out a reasonably dignified exit strategy that will see the NATO Mission over within 24 months and will involve heavy bribing of various key war lords and tribal leaders. When in Rome...

The 24 months is not to train up the Afghan Army and Police to a full ready state, that would take a generation, the time would be to encourage and cement a Civilian Pakistani Government that is securing its borders because it is Pakistan that poses the worse direct threat to the UK, not Afghanistan. If the drugs coming out of Afghanistan are deemed to be the problem, re-introduce hanging for dealing in them within the UK, far cheaper than deploying 9,000 troops plus the aid.
Afghanistan
[info]brianwayne2 wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 03:37 pm (UTC)
More will die
Pull out and let someone follow our lead for once.
Independent agrees with BNP! Shock horror
[info]smithers25 wrote:
Sunday, 15 November 2009 at 10:46 pm (UTC)
I wonder how many of those polled would claim to be totally against all the policies of the fascist, racist BNP?

I bet this posting of an uncomfortable left wing and Far Right agreement on something doesn't last long!

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