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Letters: The Burqa

Women should be free to wear the Muslim burqa

I write further to the recent comments made by the French President, Nicolas Sarkozy, regarding the wearing of a veil and burqa by Muslim women.

His comments are extremely unhelpful, coming from the Head of State of a country in which there are around 5 million Muslims. They directly contradict comments made by President Barack Obama recently: "It is important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practicing religion as they see fit – for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear. We can't disguise hostility towards any religion behind the pretence of liberalism."

It appears that this is exactly what President Sarkozy is doing. Moreover, his views on the burqa are factually wrong. The burqa is an item of religious dress which many Muslim women choose to wear. However no Muslim woman should be forced to wear it because a fundamental teaching of Islam is that "there shall be no compulsion in religion".

France should adopt the policy of Britain, which is not to interfere in an individual's personal matters . Muslims in Britain are extremely fortunate that they can practice their religion freely – a right which is not even enjoyed in some so-called Muslim states.

There is no punishment in Islam for not wearing the veil yet here a so-called enlightened state is attempting to punish its citizens for the clothing they wear. What a tragedy.

Farooq Aftab

London NW3

I concur with M Sarkozy and Sophie Morris (24 June); the sight of a woman in a burqa simply gives me the creeps and I suspect most Sixties feminists would have a similar reaction. Furthermore I would maintain that it is an essential part of western civilisation that an individual should at all times show their face or be judged a criminal or an outcast.

However I remember that some 30 years ago I was pinched on my bare upper arm by a woman in a rural village in Egypt. She was affronted by the bare flesh I had on display. Would westerners therefore be prepared to cover up in Islamic and other countries where a display of legs and arms and bosoms and hair is unwelcome?

Certainly some Brits are culpable of gross misconduct and insensitivity, but the burqa is a horror and should be banished from our streets.

P A Mackay

Wantage, Oxfordshire

King of Pop's reign was already over

Even though Michael Jackson had 50 sell-out concerts booked at London's O2, his time at the top had been and gone. Ticket-holders for his concerts probably consist of life-long loyal fans, the curious, and those as desperate to recapture their youth as Jacko himself was. I fail to understand why the media is devoting so much airtime and print to the once "King of Pop".

There's no doubt that he was a hugely influential star in the 1980s and early 90s, but for the last 10 years he had been more like a king in exile. His contribution to pop music deserves to be recognised, but the tributes are getting out of all proportion to his achievements.

I disagree with those who say that his legacy will be his music. Regardless of how many millions of records he sells in death, it won't be to the teen market. Much of his music was of its time. I believe his legacy will be to provide a lesson as to what happens when people have enough money to surround themselves with sycophants and divorce themselves from reality.

Alan Aitchison

Wakefield, West Yorkshire

Michael Jackson did more than "clutch his crotch and twizzle to the beat" as Peggy Kay suggests (letter, 29 June). He broke 13 Guinness world records, contributed to 39 charities and won 19 Grammys.

I can agree with some aspects of the "bizarre and sad life" view: his constant need to redefine his face to the point where he became unrecognisable. Why? Maybe he never thought that he was good enough to be accepted, who knows? None of us who did not know him personally can ever really know the person he truly was.

His lifestyle was eccentric, true, his own home like a fairground. Very probably he simply wanted to create some fun and freedom in his life, and the lives of other children too, denied in his own restricted upbringing. He was basically a young boy stuck in a grown man's body and needed professional psychiatric help, as would anyone who had his kind of childhood.

I will for ever remember Michael Jackson for his moonwalk, the charity work he did and the fact that he was an extremely talented musician who wrote almost all of his songs. He deserves our respect, and may he rest in peace.

Emilie Lamplough

Trowbridge, Wiltshire

I am led to believe that I will be refunded for the Michael Jackson tickets that I purchased. But for each of the four £75 tickets that I bought from the O2 there was a £9 service charge. I had not been sent my tickets yet, only a confirmation email. I certainly don't think this email was worth £36 in "services" and sincerely hope that the O2 do include this charge in their rebates

I believe that the service charge added to ticket sales needs an overhaul, as it is just a way for venues to make more money. If not, what is to stop my milkman charging a service charge, or shops adding a fee for getting something off a shelf and passing it to the customer?

Julian Sutton

Richmond, Surrey

What does it say about our culture when a quality newspaper feels it must publish no fewer than four obligatory letters (29 June) complaining about media coverage of Michael Jackson's death? One would have done: surely there is a form letter for this kind of thing.

Peter McKenna

Liverpool

Conflict in Iran and in Israel

Robert Fisk's comparison of the revolt in Iran and the Israel-Palestinian conflict is disingenuous (23 June). Whereas debate and opposition are stifled and crushed in theocratic Iran, in democratic Israel, citizens are empowered to speak their mind.

In the territories under Palestinian control, Israel acts only when there is violence directed at its citizens. A better comparison would be Hamas-controlled Gaza, where the authorities regularly stifle their fellow Palestinians who support Fatah.

The Iranian mullahs who are beating their own people in the streets also fund the likes of the suicide bombers and rocket launchers of Hamas and Hizbollah. So the only thing that the Iranian situation has in common with Israel is that a free Iran would bode well for both countries.

Michael Dickson

Jerusalem

BNP left to express people's unease

Your correspondents misunderstand a key reason for the rise of the BNP (letters, 26 June). Apparently immigration from the Normans, Romans, Danes all contribute to our great mix of races so we should all accept of mass immigration now. Hold on a moment. The infusion of other races and tribes into this country would have been greatly resisted at the time, before life settled down once more.

Now we have mass immigration, there is once more mistrust and misunderstanding of different races. That is natural, and has happened throughout time. What is unnatural, is there isn't now proper conduit to express that unease. The BNP has seen this gap and taken it on. The main parties have to allow people to express unease, and encourage integration, instead of brushing the issue under the carpet.

Graham Howson

Brighton

Getting noticed in a wheelchair

I can add to Simon Icke's experiences of people's reactions to a wheelchair (letter, 15 June). My mobility scooter, which is quite nippy, attracts admiring comments from all ages, and many people would like to have a go themselves. My party piece, however, is to use a stick which opens into a tripod seat; I get lots of interest from older people who would like a sit-down.

My independence is somehow visible with these gadgets. When using a wheelchair, I make eye contact and speak to people more, so they have to notice the wheelchair user. I think it would be a good idea for everybody to have a go at both pushing and being pushed in a wheelchair.

Pat Williams

Faringdon, Oxfordshire

On the road to climate chaos

Michael McCarthy's articles on the climate crisis and the worldwide destruction of biodiversity have made an important contribution to raising awareness of these issues in the UK. This makes it doubling perplexing to read (23 June) that he drove 722 miles from his west London home to see three rare butterflies. By choosing to travel by car he emitted 259kg of CO2. Wikipedia states that the annual per-capita emissions in Bangladesh are 250kg.

If we environmentalists are not putting our own houses in order, what hope is there for the billions who have not Michael's level of awareness of the urgency of the catastrophes bearing down not only on us but on the innocent Bangladeshis on the front line of the drowning seas?

Donnachadh McCarthy

London SE5

The prejudices of the past

David Usborne's review of the latest release of the Nixon tapes (June 25) makes a perfectly valid point in that the former President's views on "modern society" were not, well, modern. Indeed so, this befitting a man born into relative poverty in 1913 in a shabby part of small-town California, replete with all the received prejudices from that era.

As an avid reader of published diaries, I can testify that it is rare not to have occasionally winced when chancing upon some remark or phrase that would never pass muster in today's offend-nobody society; that is their delight. What is wrong is to assume that our present-day beliefs will not receive similar maulings in 40 or 50 years' time. Each generation manages to embarrass its successors.

John Axon

Petts Wood, Kent

Ordinary MPs

Some MPs are defending their right to have second jobs on the grounds that it keeps them in touch with real life. But what are these second jobs? Almost all seem to be consultancies or directorships. These are hardly typical of the everyday jobs that most people do to earn their living. I would be more impressed about the value of the experience of external jobs if these MPs undertook such tasks as cleaning moats, installing bathrooms or gardening.

Paul Burall

King's Lynn, Norfolk

Non-violent?

From the lyrics of Florence and the Machine's "Kiss with a Fist": "You hit me once/ I hit you back/ You gave a kick/ I gave a slap . . .A kick in the teeth is good for some / A kiss with a fist is better than none.". This is "emphatically" not about domestic violence according to Tim Walker (Independent Magazine, 27 June). Regardless of what the "silly rhyme" meant to the 18-year-old composer, I suspect some may get the impression it is about domestic violence.

David Boardman

Hebden Bridge, west Yorkshire

Doorstep chuggers

I have read the recent coverage about chuggers. I live in Islington – and do not have to leave my house to be accosted by them. I have received three visits from chuggers representing the same charity in the past four days. I have complained to the charity because in my view this verges on harassment. I support a number of charities via CAF online – a simple, tax-efficient way of making donations that does not involve revealing bank-account details to strangers who arrive on one's doorstep – but I shall never make a donation to this charity.

Rita Hale

London N1

Flooded out

The 25th of June was the second anniversary of the terrible flooding of Hull, Doncaster and Sheffield – with all the destruction and loss of lives and livelihoods caused. Coincidentally, that week was also the first of Gordon Brown's premiership. What a chance he missed! How the north of England, that day, needed a hands-on Prime Minister, visiting the affected communities and offering them immediate compensation and rehousing, no strings attached. Two years later, I wonder: was that first challenge for Gordon totally beyond him?

Godfrey H Holmes

Chesterfield

No medals

Liz Finlay (letter, 26 June) objects to "medal" as a verb. Perhaps she has never milked a cow; she has, probably, booked a holiday, dreamed a dream; she may have cycled to work, even booted a ball into the net. All nouns used as verbs. What's the problem?

Fred Sedgwick

Ipswich

Any noun can be verbed.

Michael A Isserlis

Northwich, Cheshire

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Comments

Though I dislike
[info]andrea_2 wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 06:54 am (UTC)
the burqa and do not like to see it worn, I would question how a ban would be enforced? Will there be on the spot fines for women wearing it in public? Will they be forced to disrobe? Haven't the police got better things to do than arrest people on the grounds that their mode of dress is repulsive?

A ban is not the answer. Sadly, if women want to wear this mode of dress then I see no way of stopping them and can only hope that one day they have a change of heart and mind.

Though something that I feel should be legislated for is the face being covered by a mask when entering certain buildings, such as a school, or bank, or a shop. It is not reasonable to have the face covered in some circumstances and institutions should have the right to request that the face is uncovered before an individual is allowed to enter the premisis.
Re: Though I dislike
[info]uanime5 wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 02:47 pm (UTC)
We can enforce it the same way Muslim countries force a woman to wear a burqa, a fine for first time offenders, jail for persistant offenders.
Re: Though I dislike
[info]belfastboy wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 04:55 pm (UTC)
I gather there is a law in Italy forbidding anyone to be out in public with their faces concealed. Such a law here would deal with both the burqa and the hoodies. Bring it on!
Bizarre charges
[info]ganef wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC)
Julian Sutton asks "what is to stop shops adding a fee for getting something off a shelf and passing it to the customer?" Julian, they already do, in some cases.

My car was overheating and needed a new radiator cap. I was amazed when the garage asked if I wanted it fitted (turn the old one anticlockwise and lift off; put the new one in place and turn clockwise), a ten second job. Curiosity got to me and I asked "how much?" The charge was for 15 minutes and included someone raising an invoice and finding the item on the shelves. I enquired how they might deliver the said item for me to fit myself; guess what? The same.

Many bills include a service charge or they expect a tip, just for doing what they are paid (or underpaid) to do.
Flooded out
[info]stephengash wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 11:25 am (UTC)
When fires devastated Greece EU Commission President Barroso went there and promised 405 million Euros for reparations, in addition to the Solidarity Fund money already assigned. Barroso never came to England for the floods and certainly promised no extra money. That the 405 million to Greece was almost exactly the amount England was fined for late distribution of single farm payments was, no doubt, pure coincidence.
Carlisle, Boscastle, York and elsewhere never received any Solidarity Fund money for their floods. This was due to lazy politicians in England not applying for the money. Maybe they were too busy flipping their properties at the time to be concerned about English voters. However, after much lobbying, Hull and elsewhere received about 162 million Euros Solidarity Fund money, two thirds of which promptly disappeared into the Treasury, probably ending up in Scotland via some obscure payments to top up the Barnet Formula largesse.
It is increasingly apparent that the EU and UK exist for the sole purpose of robbing England.
Re: Flooded out
[info]belfastboy wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC)
"It is increasingly apparent that the EU and UK exist for the sole purpose of robbing England"

Paranoid rubbish.
Re: Flooded out
[info]stephengash wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 11:30 pm (UTC)
Is that the best you can do? Pathetic. Both the UK and the EU rob England blind.
Re: Flooded out
[info]belfastboy wrote:
Friday, 3 July 2009 at 09:57 pm (UTC)
Your original suggestion was that the EU has, as its sole purpose, the robbery of England. I repeat - paranoid rubbish. Console yourself with the thought that the Germans are robbed more. (Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the Germans. You just know that they are out to get you!)

And if the UK is doing likewise, console yourself with the knowledge that England is not only part of said UK but it is the most numerous part. Maybe you meant to say the REST of the UK is robbing you? Oh dear! Was it for this that Edward I expended so much time, money and manpower to bring about the conquest of Wales? Was it for this that the Scots parliament was bribed to vote itself out of existence in 1707?

Actually I recognise that England has genuine grievances regarding state expenditure within the UK, but statements like yours are wide of the mark. They seem, however, to be fairly common, and they come over as a trend in English opinion to wish to shut out the outside world. It almost suggests a collapse in national self-belief. I hope that is not so.
King of pop
[info]martyn14 wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 12:22 pm (UTC)
I'm sure I saw Michael Jackson in Tesco this morning.
Re Burqas
[info]parodyofvirtue wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 12:33 pm (UTC)
Isn't women's appearance policed enough? You can start with saying women shouldn't veil their faces, but tomorrow is set to be 30 degrees so maybe they shouldn't wear long sleeves or headscarves that wrap around their necks either. Then of course it's so warm that those long skirts and dresses can't be very comfortable.

P A Mackay, just because someone's choice of clothing creeps you out doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to wear what they want. All clothing subcultures in the UK creep out somebody but they please the people who wear them. I too am a feminist and I believe a woman should be allowed to wear whatever she feels comfortable in, be it a burqa or a string bikini.
Brits covering up abroad - why not?
[info]frwilliams wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 12:48 pm (UTC)
P.A. Mackay asks "Would westerners therefore be prepared to cover up in Islamic and other countries where a display of legs and arms and bosoms and hair is unwelcome?" Well, I don't see why not. Western women are not required to wear a veil in a Muslim country as far as I know, but I notice that female reporters often wear a headscarf when reporting from such places. A certain young man I know was repeatedly asked by members of the public in Spain to put his tee shirt back on when he insisted on showing off his tanned torso away from the beach. In my opinion - and in the opinion of the locals - he showed extreme rudeness and lack of consideration by going topless I understand he could have been arrested for it, though I'm not sure about this. Actually, I find topless males in this country, in the supermarket or just in the street, pretty unpleasant and vulgar, and I find the increasing vulgarity of the British public obnoxious. We could learn a lot about modesty from the Muslim women amongst us.

People often say that Muslim women in this country should be prepared to follow 'our' ways and wear western dress - miniskirts, crop-tops etc. I see absolutely no reason why they should, and in any case, we don't complain about nuns covering up everything but their face. The difference between this and a burqa is slight.
BNP and 'mass immigration'
[info]frwilliams wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 01:08 pm (UTC)
Nobody is saying we should accept 'mass immigration'. In fact all the political parties - except the BNP and perhaps UKIP - are falling over themselves to advocate restricting immigration without being accused of being un-PC. In fact we do not have 'mass immigration' and there are already quite stringent controls. Even the recent wave of migrant labour from within the EU has begun to go into reverse. Further controls on immigration from outside the EU may be necessary, and there are problems with illegal immigration, but none of this means that we need to return to the "overwhelmingly white population in the UK that existed before 1948" to quote the BNP constitution, or that one can't be non-white and considered to be British.

Nick Griffin ridiculously referred to protecting the integrity of the indigenous population of the UK "as it has been for the last two thousand, three thousand, fifteen thousand years". The composition of the UK changed enormously during the several thousand years prior to the 20th Century, with the main difference since 1948 being that many incomers have been of a different skin colour. The BNP have no problem with the white immigrants and refugees and their descendants that came here during the mid-late 2oth Century. What's wrong with a bit of skin pigment?

Much of the 'unease' is stirred up by the BNP themselves. For example, the myth that immigrants jump the queue for council housing. An item on BBC news last night about Barnsley showed that although many residents believed this to be the case, all but one of the 1500 or more council house places recently allocated had been given to locals.
Complaints about Jackson coverage
[info]belfastboy wrote:
Tuesday, 30 June 2009 at 04:49 pm (UTC)
To Peter McKenna - the 4 letters complaining about saturation coverage of Michael Jackson were directed not at "the media" but specifically at the Independent, which purports to a serious paper.
modified burqas?
[info]jaffgyp wrote:
Wednesday, 1 July 2009 at 08:04 am (UTC)
the sight of another woman, especially one well past her youthful prime, exposing bare flesh often gives me the creeps - of embarrassment for her ignorance of how repulsive she will appear to many, including to the many non-any-religion-of-any-kind ordinary and aspirationally tolerant folk like me;
however i am sure that P A Mackay must be lithe and sweet and about sixteen years of age to be so confident that her fleshy exposures give no offence;
there are however times when a burqa might be dangerous: as a past science teacher i was quite often troubled by thoughts of headscarves and gowns going up in flames if wafted too close to a bunsen burner, but the same applied to inflammable floppy ties, wide sleeves and floaty tops- not to mention the possibilities of seared naked middles and frizzled eyebrows and hairstyles; and i still shudder for the possibilities of stuff getting caught up in car and train and lift doors, and bicycle wheels and chains...
clothing should not raise real health and safety issues at study or at work, especially if it also raises insurance problems for teachers or employers; but surely there is room for a range of modified burqas, allowing for essential health and safety, and/or communication-friendly, adaptations as more and more women go out into all the new opportunities open to them?
ps- again as a scientist, i often welcomed having a white coat to cover up with at work- it said something positive and important about me as well as protecting my 'good' clothes, and, more often, hiding shabby ones...



I concur with M Sarkozy and Sophie Morris (24 June); the sight of a woman in a burqa simply gives me the creeps and I suspect most Sixties feminists would have a similar reaction. Furthermore I would maintain that it is an essential part of western civilisation that an individual should at all times show their face or be judged a criminal or an outcast.

However I remember that some 30 years ago I was pinched on my bare upper arm by a woman in a rural village in Egypt. She was affronted by the bare flesh I had on display. Would westerners therefore be prepared to cover up in Islamic and other countries where a display of legs and arms and bosoms and hair is unwelcome?

Certainly some Brits are culpable of gross misconduct and insensitivity, but the burqa is a horror and should be banished from our streets.

P A Mackay
Re: modified burqas?
[info]jaffgyp wrote:
Wednesday, 1 July 2009 at 08:10 am (UTC)
sorry, the quotes from the original letter, from 'I concur....'.to.'..Mackay' should of course not have appeared in the comment of mine
Re: modified burqas?
[info]ap_upadhyay wrote:
Thursday, 2 July 2009 at 02:36 pm (UTC)
The Burqa /Hizb or even veil or Ghunghat are the things of the antiquity when women were not equal partners. Following a diktat by some cleric in Great Britain, I saw even medico-women driving in burqa to attend the duty in hospitals. Burqa is also widely misused by men to disguise their identity. The chief cleric of the Lal Masjid in Pakistan had misused Burqa in trying to escape away from Police.
Great, so when you all go on your holidays to Egypt & Morocco
[info]reiksares wrote:
Saturday, 4 July 2009 at 10:31 pm (UTC)
I want to see you get locked-up for wearing your chav beach-shorts and hawaian shirts.

I hope they give you five years in solitary.

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