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Last Night's Television - Deborah 13: Servant of God, BBC3; Horne & Corden, BBC3

Too many belly laughs

Reviewed by Tom Sutcliffe

One wonders how the first instalment of Horne & Corden would have managed without James Corden's belly, a comedy prop so central to the first episode of their new sketch series that it surely deserved a billing of its own. It was, after all, the indispensable star of the first filmed sketch in last night's show, in which Bloke One and Bloke Two wandered up to a burger van chatting idly about last night's match, until suddenly Bloke One noticed that Bloke Two was carrying enough around his middle to warrant an excess-baggage charge on a Ryanair flight. Bloke Two screamed appalled – as if the blubber had suddenly appeared without warning – and proceeded to berate Burger Van Man for the effects of his merchandise, while Bloke One got a strong grip on the overhang and proceeded to jiggle it wildly, to demonstrate the scale of the problem. The studio audience, as far as one can tell, went wild for this gag, though judging from their hysterical behaviour when Horne and Corden danced down the studio stairs, they were predisposed to like whatever came next.

The sketch show, one takes it, is a reward for Gavin & Stacey. Or what marketeers like to call a brand extension, venturing out from straightforward sitcom into Morecambe and Wise territory (or Alas Smith & Jones, or perhaps, if things go very badly, Little and Large). In the studio, Corden played the silly, over-excitable one, prone to bouncing around in a Tiggerish way, while Mathew Horne did the straight-man stuff, trying to stick to the script in the teeth of his co-star's excesses. In the sketches – both filmed and performed live in front of the audience – they shared things out a little more equitably. In a foreign-correspondent spoof, for example, it was Corden who played the sober anchor and Horne who took the part of a wildly camp and flamboyantly highlighted reporter. "What can you tell us about the present situation?" asked Corden gravely, brow furrowed to convey the gravity of the story they were covering. "Oh, it's mental!" fluted our man in Basra. "Honestly, it's all going off here... It's nuts!" Asked about the current climate, he replied, "It. Is. Baking!... Honestly! It's sweltering out here!"

They're both talented comic actors (Corden, in particular, did a note-perfect piss-take of Ricky Gervais, scene-stealing shamelessly as he performed in a remake of The Karate Kid), so where there were dips, it was usually the result of material rather than delivery. And, though it would be ridiculously early to write it off, it was worrying that their opener should have been so reliant on material that struck you as a bit end-of-term-revue in character. Corden's naked body was treated as a kind of get-out-jail-free card, with no less than three sketches in which he got his kit off and at least one more in which the only gag derived from his weight. They clearly know their audience, though, because in every case the studio laughter spiked as the clothes were peeled off. I hope subsequent episodes will conduct a bit of comic liposuction, and lose the belly in favour of the stuff they actually require a keyboard for.

Deborah 13: Servant of God, a film about a devout evangelical teenager, began with a scene in which the offscreen director exposed just how sheltered she and her siblings were from the modern world. Deborah had no idea who Victoria Beckham was and she politely asked for Britney's surname in the style of someone asking for an extra clue. Deborah won't be watching Horne & Corden, which is a mercy, really, since it's pretty filthy at times, and Deborah thinks that even white lies are deserving of an eternity in hellfire. Shortly after failing her A-list identity parade, she launched into the film's director, claiming that she was a "lying, thieving blasphemer" and thus on a fast-track to damnation.

There are a lot worse things than not knowing who Posh Spice is, of course, and there are a lot of people – not just the devout – who might think that not knowing who Posh is is actually a good thing. And as you looked at Deborah's life – home-schooled on a Dorset farm and preternaturally detached from anything that might count as typical teenage life – I found it hard to get very worked up about her faith, even as a hair-trigger atheist. Yes, she was a bit dreary when she pulled out her tracts and started to preach, but then a lot of teenagers go through sanctimonious phases. And yes, she was horribly ignorant about science and evolution, swallowing Creationist gibberish without a second thought. But when she went out for a night on the town in Derbyshire with her student brother, and a young fresher staggered up and asked, "Does someone want to write on my boobs?" you couldn't help – for one flickering moment – seeing the world through her eyes. Buxton, the Gomorrah of Derbyshire.

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Comments

[info]lebagshoppe wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 10:32 am (UTC)
regarding the young innocent girl deborah, i couldnt help but piity her, its no wonder she is totally oblivious to the out side world having god rammed down her throat every minuite of the day. i could only see sadness in her young eyes, no other outside influences to broaden her out look on life. as for her saying we will all go to hell, well, i certainly do not come close to rotting in hell as a dirty child abuser just because ive told the odd white lie. perhaps her parents and deborah should spend som time with people who hav been abused and see how it has messed up their lives, then maybe they will think different about who goes to hell. if there is a god where is he.
a message about hell, or about rescue from hell?
[info]mikeg_s wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 05:38 pm (UTC)
I wonder what was going on in terms of editorial license. As one who would believe the same gospel as Deborah, but would certainly want to emphasise the cross as the solution to the problem of hell, it seemed clear to me from the closing moments of the documentary that she was most concerned about sharing the good news of salvation from hell through the cross. I found it quote moving when she teared up in gratitude that all her sins had been forgiven. But it plays into the hands of the BBC to cut the message short of the cross wherever possible, and continue to perpetuate the myth that Christians are all about judgement and nothing about grace.
deborah. servant of god
[info]chaplin64 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 10:44 am (UTC)
i loved this programme, i wished i had lived this way, during my childhood, my parents were not religious, however i was. but i was exposed to all this rubbish, in magazines and quickly followed the route that led into smoking and drinking and having loads of sex with different men, which i deeply regret, these days i'm a mother and wife who is very much on the straight and narrow, i am still a strong believer in god and jesus, the only difference being i now live my life by the bible. my husband and children are not believers and i never force my beliefs on them, i just pray they will know whats right and wrong, and listen to what we as parents teach them. i admire and respect deborah and her family, and although i deeply regret the route i took in life when i was younger, my husband very kindly points out that by living that life has made me the better person i am today, i think in a way hes right, but i know in my heart it was wrong, and i should stayed away from such things. good luck to deborah and her family.xx
Christian faith
[info]lamywhite wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 10:46 am (UTC)
Hi everybody,
I am a 'born again' christian and saw and watched last night's programm with interest.
My husband and I are both involved in our local church and we do live our lives with the guidance of the Bible but we also live a normal life!

I think that Deborah was very brave in her speech and yes what she was saying is the truth and we shouldn't compromise that but it needs to be balanced with the fact that the reason Jesus came to the earth is because and foremost that He loves you and me.
Everybody knows that scripture in John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life!'
So, yeah : there is a recognition of sin but it doesn't stop there with condemnation but with love ...

If tomorrow one of my child is condemmed to a life time suffering through an illness and I have the tool to help that child then I would sacrifice my life for my child so that he could live a happy life ... why? because I love my child!

God saw our sins, recognized them and thought: I love my creation so much that I am not going to let them suffer but I will sacrifice myself for them so they can enjoy a beautiful life! that is what the cross is all about!

While Jesus was on earth, he was friend with sinners: prostitutes, liars, thief ... He was among them not to condemn them but to love on them and show them that there is another way...

Although the Bible is clear about the destination of the sinners (which we all are ) there is also a clear path that leads to the way out from that destination and that way is: the love of God for the sinner ...

God says if you believe in me (that is all it take) and follow me .... then we will be with Him for eternity ... and God is a gracious loving God who is 'slow to anger and abouding in love and faithfulness' Exodus 34 v 6

I hope that has helped ... From personal testimony: me and my husband have prooved and seen God move in our lives ... helping us to live a peaceful, full of joy (even in hard times!), full of excitement life! God has helped my husband come out from 10 years of heroin addiction and has helped me through my insecurities and neglect. He has truly given us LIFE. We have a normal happy carry on ... something that we couldn't have even dreamt about few years ago!

So just believe in Him... get to know Him and see your life (as you follow Him) change and transformed for the better (If your life is good now then trust me ... it can be even better: somethings you can't purchase in a store but with God you have access to them!)

Love you ...

xxx
Re: Christian faith
[info]javier75s wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 11:21 pm (UTC)
Hi: lamywhite. I'll Be brief. I read other comments, but yours made me think a bit. I think you say you a born againg christian. But where did you get that the cross is about living a happy life? don't you realized that The cross is an offence to those who live a HAPPY AND BALANCED LIFE. Concerning your husband let me tell you that out there i know of people who came out of a worse state than his. Jesus did not die on the cross four you to have a balbanced and happy life but rather for your sins and eternal life. surely than you may think that the apostles and Jesus himself had to live a balanced and happy life. I would recomend that you read your bible once and ask God at least to give a pinch of what that 13 year old has!!!
Re: Christian faith
[info]lamywhite wrote:
Monday, 16 March 2009 at 10:05 pm (UTC)
The apostle Paul went through a lot! but he still wrote in Philipians that we need to learn to be content in lack or in plenty (not just financial but in every area) 1 John teaches that He wants us to be properous in every area of our lives... this means soul prosperity not financial prosperity. The aposle John also teaches that in Him (Jesus) we have life and Jesus taught in john 10 v 10 that He came to give us life and life to the full = this shows His intention for us to live in the joy of the Lord for the 'joy of the Lord is our strenght' in Nehemiah.
Blessed = from the Greek = Happy!
In Psalm 1: 'Blessed is the man who does not walk in the councel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinner or sit in the seat of mockers but his delight is in the law of the Lord and on His law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water which yealds its fruit in season (...)
We haven't had an easy carrying on and even now we go through trials but Jesus did say 'in this world you will have trouble (so I am not surprised with the trials) but take heart I have overcome the world' (john 16 v 33) So even through the trial we and you can enjoy/ learn to enjoy the journey with Jesus and in His presence there is fullness of joy (Psalm 16 v 11). So: I do understand your comment but as I read my Bible I can see and know that God and the purpose of the cross is to give life. And I am determined to enjoy the life that He has died for. For better for worse! I know that Jesus has died for my sins and for me to be with Him for Eternity but in that knowing I rejoice while I am 'waiting' and I have peace knowing that I will see Him one day and I enjoy telling others about Him and about the fact that they can have their sins forgiven but I tell them that they can enjoy their life with Him while here on earth. Yes persecution and hardship is a reality but again: Jesus says: take heart I have overcome the World.

Thank you.
Where is the balance of life in that?
[info]maweea79 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 11:12 am (UTC)
Loved to hate this program really.
I did respect the choices that Deborah's parent had made, to have as many children as 'god wanted' and to teach the children at home. Its a difficult thing to do, and I believe they have made a pretty good job of most of it.

On the other hand, what a sad way to feel the world when you are 13! She is completely isolated from the rest of the world, with no balance to how it feels in the real world. No particular friends her own age to speak of. No experience of interacting on many levels to girls and boys her own age. No other interests as a natural teenager should have, other than one rather punishing and scary God figure.

Her father stated on the program that neglect is a form of training. They are training their children with God rammed down their throats, which is fine... but where is the balance. You can tell your children all about God, and creation, but you also need to give them the opportunity to find their own opinion, through the use of scientific facts. Its a form of training to raise your children in such a way, but its also a form of propaganda to avoid topics of science because its convienient for you to forget.

They may have created a servant of God, and brought her up in a very healthy lifestyle, but the extent of denial will have a knock on effect, and has the potential to hurt her deeply... God or no God.
Deborah 13
[info]mrbaker wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 12:27 pm (UTC)
I agree that it's probably a good thing to not know who Posh Spice is. I think I'd rather not know. The portions of the film at university showed the typical self-centredness and mindlessness of many people today. I am a student and see this kind of thing almost every night.
Tom Sutcliffe, as a writer for the Indipendent I would have expected you to be less of an extremist ('hair-trigger atheist') and write more indipendently of world-views which for all we know were 'shoved down your throat' as a child. But such is society now that atheists think they can say that they are absolutely correct and think everyone else are deluded, when they themselves take an equal (and opposite) standpoint to those they are berating.
I am a Christian but grew up in a household very connected to society, none of my family are Chrisitan and I didn't become a Christian until my late teens. I would therefore argue that it would be foolish to dismiss Christianity because of a very closed-minded view that Christians are somehow all like Deborah's family in the film.
Concerning little white-lies: I'm sure we have all done much worse than this, this is just an extreme example given by a young teenage girl, we know that little white lies are not the worst which we have done. We have all hurt people physically and emotionally at some point in our lives. Therefore, if we were to add together all the little times when we hurt people in just little ways, it would result in one big crime. So, maybe the punishment does fit the crime - I would want to see people punished for such hurt of others and so would you. So all the hurting of others throughout our lives adds to to being as if we have actually killed someone, so hell is about right for all of us.
If all you have done if told a single little white lie, I apologize, but I'm sure I am apologizing to very few people in the world.
The emotion she showed at the end of the film was obviously tears of happiness, not of sadness. She has a genuine belief in what she is saying. I personally have never seen an atheist cry with happiness over their beliefs (I am not saying that atheists beliefs are not genuine, just that it must be a very sad life to be an atheist... the drunkards and others in the film go to show the sadness of their lives, craving sexual and consumer pleasures to fulfil themselves in a very temporary way.)
Perhaps she was also crying with happiness at how free she is of the mindlessness she witnessed at her brother's university. Call her mindless and brainwashed if you like, but surely so too are the others who crave their next fix of drink, drugs, sex, arguments, shopping, etc.
Re: Deborah 13
[info]xandrani wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 11:47 pm (UTC)
The reason Atheists don't cry over their beliefs is that they aren't brainwashed by abusive doctrine that manipulates through fear.

The message is effectively "Believe and be perfect, or you go to hell".

This is proof that God (if he exists) is pretty nasty and unforgiving. If a person said to you "If you aren't kind to everyone I will torture you for the rest of your life", would you think they were loving or perhaps psychotic? Well God is a complete psycho... but Christians fail to see this.
Don't judge
[info]eddjcaine wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 12:33 pm (UTC)
Deborah 13:
I agree with this article - She'd obviously grown up in a loving, caring, wholesome environment and had her own opinions and views associated with it. The beginning, in which the interviewer asked her whether she knew who the spice girls and britney spears were and presented her with an alien and trashy looking girly magazine and appearing shocked when deborah didn't know what to make of them - I felt I was being handed a picture of our own cultural bigotry. She has her own set of views, and we have ours. To claim that she's in any way sheltered or detached from "real life" is as abusive as for her to tell us we're going to hell. I am no religious person, but I'm no big fan of our trashy and bigotted culture either. And as for being evangelical - all teenagers are like this, whether it's about god or shoes or what music you listen to. I applaud Deborah for standing up for what she believes in. After all - she's not doing any harm is she? If anything I'm jealous of her privileged upbringing.
Re: Don't judge
[info]zander469 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 01:45 pm (UTC)
This made me feel quite sad last night and i couldnt help but cringe at some of the moments in it. I felt so bad for her at the end when Deborah cried. Although i believe in God too, i am not of the "religious" type of God belief and you can see how arrogant her comments and that of the other guy who was at university (dont recall his name) were. Arrogant, but understandable. It was interesting to hear her say she "chose" to live this way. I would ask her, if she was brought up by a Muslim or Hindu or Aethist family would she have also "chosen" this Christian way?
[info]valesgirl wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 01:55 pm (UTC)
I sat with my mouth open the whole way through this show.. This young girl has got serious issues about people going to hell. You could see in her eyes that she was always thinkin - prob about hell. Is this healthy - I don't think so, like her big brother said she should concentrate on the positive side of being a christian person and not the negative.

I couldn't believe that she has such strong views for someone so young - her obsession with hell is unhealthy and I think her parents should do something but then agin they are training their children????
weird
[info]valesgirl wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 01:59 pm (UTC)
what a weird little girl - she has an unhealthy obsession with hell!!!!!!! I think her parents are to blame for constantly ramming the bible and prayers down her throat.
I saw a look in her eyes and it wasn't normal - I have to say this programme shocked me - especially the 'Puppet Show' yeah right, just another chance to 'witness' - hilarious and cringworthy at the same time.
Poor Thinking
[info]dave_j_l wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 02:53 pm (UTC)
lamywhite: "God has helped my husband come out from 10 years of heroin addiction and has helped me through my insecurities and neglect."

There is a difference between God as a being and a belief in God, which does not in itself require that God exists. Your faith has helped you and your husband through all these difficult times, which is good for you, but a belief in God, no matter how strong, in no way reflects on the probability of God's existence, an important distinction to make but one which is made all too rarely by the religious. There is a difference between faith and fact.

mrbaker: "But such is society now that atheists think they can say that they are absolutely correct and think everyone else are deluded, when they themselves take an equal (and opposite) standpoint to those they are berating."

Religious people are easily the worst offenders worldwide when it comes to thinking about themselves as absolutely right and everyone else absolutely wrong, and what's more they not infrequently have the clout or political power to actually affect society with these opinions, unlike atheists, who tend to be unorganised by nature. Besides which, the standpoints are opposite, but not equal: theists and atheists operate in two opposing ways, one on faith, the other reason, and it is the refusal of religious people to accept not just atheists' arguments, but the very foundational way of thinking for their arguments, that means debates seem to end up in stalemate. This possibly wouldn't matter if such arguments were purely abstract, but they have real consequences when the religious try and use these teachings in the public arena: ideas impervious to reason being used to justify laws are very dangerous ideas indeed.

"So all the hurting of others throughout our lives adds to to being as if we have actually killed someone, so hell is about right for all of us."

That's one of the most absurd things I've read in a long time. Can you not see what is profoundly wrong with this way of thinking? In what sense do bad things accumulate until we've all essentially murdered someone over the course of our lives? Can you not see that these things are simply not equivalent - even if you're not thinking in the secular sense of principles of harm, compassion and altruism and are thinking in religiously-proscribed terms of 'sin' I still can't imagine that makes sense within Christianity. So a lifetime of complex, fallible human beings making mistakes, trying to make amends, and being as good and happy as they can still warrants an ETERNITY of punishment? It's one of the most disgusting doctrines I know of.
cont...
Poor Thinking 2
[info]dave_j_l wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 02:55 pm (UTC)
"I personally have never seen an atheist cry with happiness over their beliefs (I am not saying that atheists beliefs are not genuine, just that it must be a very sad life to be an atheist... the drunkards and others in the film go to show the sadness of their lives, craving sexual and consumer pleasures to fulfil themselves in a very temporary way.)"

The first part of this statement, is both entirely irrelevant to the probability of God existing and irrelevant to your larger point about happiness - why would I 'cry with happiness' about being an atheist, any more than I would about enjoying certain foods, or types of music? It simply isn't that sort of belief; perhaps it is more coolly rational rather than sentimentally emotional, but it doesn't reflect on whether I am happy being an atheist or not.

Besides all this, the rest of the statement entirely misses the points most atheists make about ethics and belief in God. It is in the nature of religious belief to create false dichotomies for everything: absolutely right/wrong, true/false, good/evil, for God/against God etc. but there is an important distinction to be made between theists, atheists, and those who tend to muddle through life without giving such matters much thought. It is a tendency of the religious to categorise those who aren't religious as atheists, but a more apt term would simply be 'non-religious'. The atheists you read about in papers, the ones who teach philosophy, who write books, who appear on radio and television (and who make the time to comment on newspaper websites), are intelligent people who reasoned that God probably doesn't exist, that belief in God is therefore pointless and potentially dangerous, and that it is up to ourselves to work out ethical systems to live by, drawing on critical thinking and millennia of philosophical thought. This isn't an amoral system of absolute relativism and a shallow, 'anything goes' hedonism as often characterised by the religious, but rather an intelligent way of thinking which takes in, for example, the idea of universal human rights, principles of fairness and justice, and, crucially, a flexibility to adapt notably absent from religious doctrines, which are forever crippled by the need to declare certain ancient, divisive and ridiculous dogmas unchangeable, despite the lack of good reason to believe them in the first place. It's easy to declare oneself an atheist without any thought, of course, just as there are many who characterise themselves as Christians merely because it was the way they were brought up, regardless of their adult lack of church attendance or consideration of Christian doctrine, but I think 'atheist' ought to be, and certainly is for those whom the religious most like arguing against, a positive term which requires thought about the subject before it can be applied.

The problem with those who do live their lives solely to pursue material gain (and maybe those in the film are perfectly ordinary and nice people who were actually just having a good time - are you not judging a little too much on a selective piece of footage?) is not simply that they are 'godless', but that they haven't given any broader thought to ethics and what makes a good life. This is something that could be changed by teaching philosophy and critical thinking from an early age, an approach similar in style to a religious upbringing but with the added bonus of being reasonable and not teaching likely falsehoods, as well as without the need to instill superstition and narrowing the mind - indeed the very opposite being the modus operandi of philosophy, in fact.

I love being an atheist. I believe it is the only reasonable stance and that the idea that we alone have to work out the best and fairest ways to live is exhilarating. I also believe that the idea that we collapse into an amoral anarchy if we don't have parochial and primitive religious texts telling us what to do is frankly insulting; biology, physics, music, family, the universe... all these are fascinating and awe-inspiring - "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" (Douglas Adams)
Re: Poor Thinking 2
[info]rais760 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 05:33 pm (UTC)
Sadly, what is truly insulting is the inability to acknowledge how truly amoral, primitive, anarchic, selfish, self serving, deceitful, lazy, materialistic and hateful we have become due to the steady decline of any sort of moral compass. Look at what our liberal, free thinking,anti life, anti religious society is producing; self obsessed, shallow, unaccountable social misfits whose only goal in life is to be famous....History speaks for itself, look at the Egyptian, Ottoman, Roman empires...; they all fell under the weight of their self indulgence and Godlessness...And the saddest thing of all is how we as mere mortals could ever think that we can or should be able to comprehend the mysteries of God and his awesome creation when we don't even know whats going on inside our own bodies, under our own skin, the mechanics and composition of our cells and their composites and on and on and on...pride before the fall and all the jazz. May God bless and enlighten.
Re: Poor Thinking 2
[info]dave_j_l wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC)
It must be awfully tiresome spending your whole life obsequiously going on about how unworthy of any respect humans are in the face of your almighty creator, constantly grovelling pathetically at the feet of someone who surely, being the creator of the entire universe and all, is a bit above that sort of thing? But then consistency and logic have never been religion's strong points have they? It must be nice having such a simplistic, done-and-dusted view of history and morals; thinking is such hard work after all.
Re: Poor Thinking 2
[info]pw201 wrote:
Monday, 16 March 2009 at 02:21 am (UTC)
History speaks for itself, look at the Egyptian, Ottoman, Roman empires...; they all fell under the weight of their self indulgence and Godlessness

Yeah, Scandanavia, it's a doomed hellhole. Or not.

Rome was Christian when it fell, see Gibbon.

Edited at 2009-03-16 02:21 am (UTC)
Deborough 13 servant of god
[info]roy_of_dorset wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 05:25 pm (UTC)
I found this programme disturbing. I am an atheist by observation of my environment and not through some dogmatic approach. I started to watch the program with interest of how do believers see the world. However as soon as I heard that children had to be "trained" and people need to be "trained", I felt my hackles rise. Deborahs"training" was a myopic view of the world seen through the bible and god. All of her daily conduct was tied to a book that was written by people who lived in a time of ignorance. Woe betide anyone who steps out of gods word. Deborah obviously is an intelligent girl, however she has become a zealot or potential fundamentalist for christianity. Her terror of straying outside of the 10 commandments was so apparent that I fear for her future sanity, for she surely has had her childhood stolen by her belief. I was so disturbed by this programme I wanted to call social services
Re: Deborough 13 servant of god
[info]rais760 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 07:37 pm (UTC)
Realistically though, did she say or do anything wrong, hateful, spiteful or harmful. As far as she was concerned, the only reason she wanted to spread the 'Word', was to help get others to a 'better place'. What's so bad about not lying, cheating, thieving, etc etc. Besides how can one take offense or be hurt by her words or evangelizing if there wasn't the slightest grain of truth in her observations. Surely her life and preaching would be of no concern or of consequence to someone who denies the existence of God? Her motivation is a little off key perhaps as Jesus taught us to live by example, not necessarily so forcefully or without invitation, but her heart is in the right place and she certainly has a realistic grasp on the 'big picture'. Life is but the blink of an eye in the wake of eternity and I for one, will try not to take any chances either. God bless her journey and ours.
Re: Deborough 13 servant of god
[info]sparks44 wrote:
Wednesday, 11 March 2009 at 11:22 pm (UTC)
She was under the belief that anything sinful that she did could be repented and god would forgive her... whereas she looked on at the atheists (which by the way is not a belief) or at least people who she thought were atheists and told them that they would go to hell for the things that they were doing. Obviously this is completely illogical as Christianity/the bible can only be found in select areas around the world, so people without the bible and no knowledge of god are automatically condemned to hell because they don't know how to repent (say sorry) although in their heart they may feel deeply regrettable for breaching the most basic of human morales. So why would god make an entire human race and allow his son to die for our sins so we could be forgiven and then fail to teach more than half the world that the bible even exists which then condemns the larger populace to an eternity of torture?
I did like the ending (or near the end) she said something like "there's no proof for the big bang how can people believe something like that!".. there's no proof for god, but her dad would have told her otherwise. Indoctrination at its best.
Re: Deborough 13 servant of god
[info]bbc4israel wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 02:45 pm (UTC)
"Realistically though, did she say or do anything wrong, hateful, spiteful or harmful. "

Yes, to suggest that I am going to hell because I was fortunate enough not to be indoctrinated from birth into some middle eastern fantasy-superstition is hugely offensive to me.

"As far as she was concerned, the only reason she wanted to spread the 'Word', was to help get others to a 'better place'"

It's none of her damn business about helping me or others to get to a better place. I can think for myself, unlike this poor abused child who has obviously never had a thought of her own that her parents have not meticulously placed in her formative mind.

It's sick, and people who force their children into particular ways of life like this should have their children removed for their own sake.
Creationism
[info]jdcastro wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 01:30 pm (UTC)
In some ways it is child abuse, in other ways not. The worst aspect of Christian fundamentalism, apart from its division of the whole world into "sheep" and "goats", is it's appalling attitude towards the sciences.

Even if you have doubts about the theory of evolution as it currently stands, the geological and cosmological evidence for an ancient earth and universe is beyond dispute. One thing I have noticed about young-earth creationists is that they have no ability to distinguish between different scientific disciplines - if you don't believe in a young earth you must be an atheistic evolutionist. To them, only evolutionists believe in a long earth history.

If Deborah is reading this thread then I would encourage her to take note of this fact. People like Hovind and Ham are frauds, who tell lies about science repeatedly and expect their listeners to accept their outrageous ideas, which have no shred of evidence to support them. There is plenty of evidence for the big bang, whether or not you decide to believe in evolution.
How do you know?
[info]adrapper wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 05:01 pm (UTC)
From the film how do you know that "she was horribly ignorant about science and evolution", it may be that she knows a great deal but is not taken in by it?

Also did she really "launched into the film's director, claiming that she was a "lying, thieving blasphemer" or did the director say that she had lied stolen and blasphemed?
Re: How do you know?
[info]bobidoo wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 06:57 pm (UTC)
A very thought provoking film. In all, I think we have to accept that nobody is going to make a film about 'middle of the road Christianity', or for that matter middle of the road atheism or anything else. This programme was always going to be about extremes. I wouldn't normally comment on something like this, but I do feel in regard to dave_j_l's comments, that there is a sense these days that anybody with any religious view is somehow ridiculous and ignorant. We too, (the ones who take time to comment on newspaper websites) can also be intelligent, whilst disagreeing with you. I think it's a little hypocritical, in this day and age, to be outraged by someone religious ramming a message down your throat. The secular society we inhabit rams its agenda down our throats every day of the week. Science is indeed rooted in fact, however a lot of scientific theory is now taught as fact. I don't believe in any conflict between science and religion, the point is, science is not capable of answering the questions posed by religion. If you want to talk about ranting and rhetoric (along with bad science and biased twisting of facts) read The God Delusion. Probably the worst argued and least balanced book of the century - derided by scientists and intelligent people alike.
Re: How do you know?
[info]pw201 wrote:
Monday, 16 March 2009 at 02:11 am (UTC)
Science is indeed rooted in fact, however a lot of scientific theory is now taught as fact.

Is this the old "Evolution's just a theory" thing? So's gravity. The word "Theory" means something special in science. Luckily, there's a great website about it.

I don't believe in any conflict between science and religion, the point is, science is not capable of answering the questions posed by religion.

Which questions? I'd agree that science doesn't cover ethics, for example, but I'd also argue you can be ethical without religion.

If you want to talk about ranting and rhetoric (along with bad science and biased twisting of facts) read The God Delusion.

The God Delusion is certainly polemical. Can you cite the bad science and twisting of facts in it?
Re: How do you know?
[info]adrapper wrote:
Tuesday, 17 March 2009 at 12:36 pm (UTC)
Thanks for your comment. have a look at Deborah's article about the Scientific Method http://deborahdrapper.com/scientific-method/
Re: How do you know?
[info]pw201 wrote:
Monday, 16 March 2009 at 02:03 am (UTC)
About 1:40 "So you're a lying, thieving, coveting, blasphemous person. Do you still think you're a good person?"

You and I both know that "Have you ever done X? What does that make you?" stuff is a script from Ray Comfort's Way of the Master. It's the Christian equivalent of a high pressure sales technique. If the victim has time to think, the right response is: "Have you ever told the truth? What does that make you?"
Re: How do you know?
[info]adrapper wrote:
Monday, 16 March 2009 at 08:16 am (UTC)
Hi,

A young girl repeating what you have just told her can hardly be called launching into them.

Telling the truth some of the time does not mean that if you lie, you are not a liar, just as not murdering for most of your life, does not mean that the one or two times you have murdered some one dose not make you a murderer.

Yes she learned it from Ray Comfort, Honoured to know the man.
Re: How do you know?
[info]pw201 wrote:
Tuesday, 17 March 2009 at 01:08 am (UTC)
A young girl repeating what you have just told her can hardly be called launching into them.

But she doesn't repeat what she is told. Comfort's slight of hand is that he uses similar sounding words (lie, liar) to make people accept a use of the word "liar" that they wouldn't otherwise.

People use description of what a person is (like "liar", "murderer"), rather just saying what a person has done, either because they want to say the person habitually does the thing, or because they regard the thing as very serious. Both of these ways of using a description seem to be about differentiating people from the others around them. We'd certainly use the term "murderer" to describe someone who'd committed murder, because murder is serious and rare. But "liar" loses its usefulness if it refers to everyone who once lied, because pretty much everyone doesn't tell the truth all the time, so nobody uses "liar" that way. The guy in Comfort's 2nd street interview who says "That makes me a human" has it right. If Comfort had said "Do you often tell lies?", he would have been correct to imply that made someone a liar, but since most people would say "no", he wouldn't have produced the guilt he was looking for.

You may want to argue that God regards people who've told an occasional lie as being as bad as habitual liars. If so, so much the worse for God.

Ray Comfort, Honoured to know the man.

He's certainly a gift to atheists. That stuff about bananas, and the Crocoduck. Brilliant. C.S. Lewis must be turning in his grave.
Deborah. servant of god
[info]puravida1 wrote:
Thursday, 12 March 2009 at 11:23 pm (UTC)
Very inspiring, what a passionate young lady! I wish i had her courage. Sure it's going to annoy anyone to hear that they are rubbish and they are going to hell if they don't repent from the big or small sins, but, she is willing to make enemies because of her whole hearted belief and love for the people she talks to, she wants to make sure people don't go to hell, how wonderful! Thanks for the encouragement Deborah : )
I would choose her lifestyle than that of the average computer gaming, crisp munching teenager any day.
P.s. i was a pretty useless teenager...with drink, weed, tattoos, parties etc...i regret it and the mistakes that came with it. God is awesome, he knows we'll mess up, cos we're human, but He doesn't want us to go to hell either, that's why he sent Jesus...it took me a while to accept it but once i checked out the bible for myself it all became clear.
Re: Deborah. servant of god
[info]chaplin64 wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 08:52 pm (UTC)
well said, you have just said what i was trying to say.
Re: Deborah. servant of god
[info]xandrani wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 11:54 pm (UTC)
Actually I never did weed or tattoos. I am now pretty much teetotal and vegetarian due to ethics. I also do voluntary work... I am however an atheist. I'm ironically a better Christian than most Christians... which proves that Christianity is not needed to be a good person.

Indeed if an individual totally followed the bible then they would go to jail. e.g. the bit in the bible where a man is stoned to death for working on the Sabbath. If a Christian stoned someone to death who worked on the Sabbath then they would go to jail for murder. Deborah's family teach them to follow the bible literally, does "thou shalt not kill" override the stoning to death commandment? Talk about completely ridiculous contradictions.

Atheists ethics are FAR more sensible than Christian ethics.
Condemnation
[info]emily_bray wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 12:01 am (UTC)
I'm a 21 year old Christian, and watching the film was really interesting for me. Some documentaries about Christianity really focus on the 'extremest' views, and there are plenty of times when I disagree with what is being said, and think they are grossly misrepresenting Christianity. Although I don't entirely agree with Deborah's parents' choices regarding her upbringing I can totally see where they are coming from, and it's not our business if the parents are caring for the child's wellbeing. I don't think shielding a child from today's culture is a bad thing in any way, as long as they are also knowledgeable and intelligent about the world, and not kept in ignorance which will lead to problems and difficulties in the future, but who can tell what the future holds for a child anyway, they will have problems whatever background they're from. In the Bible, it tells us to be in the world but not of it, which is different from being segregated, Christians can still socialize with non-Christians, have non-Christian friends, work in non-Christian places and remain strong in their faith without conforming to the ideals around them.

Regarding Deborah's personal views, I think they're a little black and white but this is normal for a 13 year old, who has not developed an understanding of the world and people around her yet. I did think she was a little pre-occupied with hell, but it was all out of concern for those she was talking to, and I largely agree with her views though would probably put it differently. In Christianity judgment and love go hand in hand, they are two sides of the same coin. Yes, I believe we are all sinners, God is a perfect God and non of us are perfect and can meet a 100% standard. It can't be simply a case of God letting us of, as someone has written (I can't remember who off the top of my head) A God all mercy is a God unjust. We cannot have it both ways. How often do you hear people crying for justice in the world, we all want people to be punished for their crimes, yet we are not so keen when it is we who are being judged. If you have ever intentionally said something to hurt someone or been selfish etc you know that that person was hurt by you and as such you deserve punishment. But that is not how God sees us. In John 3:17 it says 'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.' It's all about how the picture is presented. Without sin there would be no need for rescue. As Christians our message is not God's condemnation but his love, after all we're all in the same boat - none of us have the right to judge another. One of the themes which reoccurs again and again in the new testament is Jesus' criticism of the Pharasees who had all the rules but none of the love and had missed the whole point in their self-righteous judgment of others, and observance of rules.

It's sad that it's often the extreme and condemnatory side of Christianity which is shown on TV, and usually provokes such a hostile response. The gospel isn't easy however, and if people really want to know what is actually said, I would advise them to read the Bible for themselves, rather than basing it on other people's accounts which can be misleading. The Bible tells Christians to weigh carefully everything we hear, there are false teachings in the 'church' (as an institution), and we don't have to accept everything people tell us, we have to be vigelent that we are not led astray by people claiming Christianity but practicing something else.
[info]1_bad_k1tty wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 02:04 am (UTC)
Did anybody get a gay vibe off her brother?
Yes
[info]xandrani wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 11:57 pm (UTC)
Yes I thought that too. If he is indeed gay then his parents will probably reject him... or tell him he's going to hell. Poor lad.
Deborah 13: Servant of God
[info]strangeorwhat wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 02:34 am (UTC)
omg her brother was totally in the closet gay haha one of the most cringiest hour of my life soo funny
Frustrating
[info]lewisur wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC)
Another program produced to show the honest, yet worryingly simplistic and (let's face it) quite odd expression of Christianity in the Western World. Naturally, the slightly more conservative English won't go quite as far as the "God-hates-fags"-banner wielding American crew, but they will all still be placed in the same box!

Where are all the programmes that show the good, positive approaches to Christianity? Where are the programmes that look at what Shane Claiborne is doing over in America, or what "Soul in the City" or "Newday" are doing here in the UK? Could it possibly be that the media are afraid to show a side to Christianity that isn't actually that weird? It seems that the public view of Christianity is either the hymn-singing, do-gooding, bless-their-(starchy)-cotton-socks upper-middle class, or the extremely bizarre!

I do wonder whether Deborah "23" will be very different to Deborah "13" (perhaps that is an idea for the Beeb to consider looking at in 10 years) - either way, I hope that she finds a Christianity that isn't based on manipulation, bad science and pointless rhetoric. It is out there; honest.

Too shelterd
[info]shelly91 wrote:
Friday, 13 March 2009 at 10:48 pm (UTC)
Arfter watching this show, i have to say, it made me belive in God LESS! I am almost 18 and i am not sure if i belive in God or not. But this girl belives that if a person tells one little white, they will burn in hell, with murderers and child abusers, it made me think "if there is a God and this is what he is like, then i would rather burn in hell then worship him".
Her family have drumed God into her from day one and cut her off from anything that could make her think anything but what they have told her. When talking with her brother she said anyone that belives the Big Band theory needs physiological help! She needs to be placed in a real school and learn the facts and stop repeating what has been drumed in to her head.
Re: Too shelterd
[info]xandrani wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 12:00 am (UTC)
Well here's proof that Christianity is insane:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2015:32-36&version=9;

It proves that Jesus and Moses are murdering psychopaths!
horne and corden
[info]henship wrote:
Saturday, 14 March 2009 at 04:31 pm (UTC)
The first episode of this sketch show was so arse tighteningly bad I found myself praying for the return of the grumbleweeds.It made dear old Little and Large look positively high brow.If the apotheosis of sketch show comedy lies with the fast show this is undoubtedly the parasitical urethral worm.Bring on the BBC2 Friday night transfer.Oh dear.
Deborah 13
[info]dodise wrote:
Tuesday, 17 March 2009 at 09:28 am (UTC)
I have read a few comments on this programme about Deborah and can tell you now that this is not a sad girl, but a young woman of God who clearly understands the truth. Her tears at the end are certainly tears of joy at the fact that Jesus died on the cross for her sins and how she feels she does not deserve it. One can only understnad this joy once you have accepted Jesus as your Lord. What is she losing out on having not heard of Victoria Beckham or Britney Spears? She is so content with her life and the fact she says she needs nothing else indicates that God fulfills all her needs.
Positive
[info]crocket1 wrote:
Wednesday, 18 March 2009 at 08:35 am (UTC)
I watched this programme to the end because I saw a very bright, articulate and passionate person who was older by many years than the presenter, her brother or any of the "University Students". She'll turn out just fine by the time she's in her twenties.

The country's youth focuses on trash to entertain itself because we don't offer it any more. Why can't we focus our efforts on producing a greater number of intelligent, passionate people who really care about other people and have a great self belief and excellent values. We'd all have so much less to complain about.

Well done Deborah!
Deborah, Servant of God
[info]jmf_g wrote:
Thursday, 19 March 2009 at 12:36 am (UTC)
Whilst at the mere entertainment level this made for good(ish) television, its value as anything insightful or challenging was close to zero. Okay, the absurdities of a religion-based belief system were pretty well covered, as were the more positive aspects of following a moral code informed by the notion that there may be more to life than alcohol, shopping, peer group approval and celebrity, but using a vulnerable 13-year old as a vehicle to reveal those extremes was surely inappropriate.

What the programme did was to cynically exploit a child - one emotionally and intellectually ill-equipped to deal with the confusion, tension, contradiction and pressure of adolescence, never mind engage with the philosophical complexities of the purpose of existence and the nature of the hereafter, however it's imagined. It doesn't matter a hoot what I or anybody else makes of the broadcast, but we should all be concerned about the damage it might have done/still do to Deborah herself - and her siblings.

Jim G
Deborah is being mentally abused!
[info]xandrani wrote:
Thursday, 16 April 2009 at 11:42 pm (UTC)
The truth is that Deborah is being abused by her parents. She is petrified about hell, and seems very distressed.

Her parents are to naive to see their abuse.

Also her parents teach them that the bible is literal... well it makes me wonder if they teach them the bit about the man being stoned to death for working on the Sabbath? Also according to Deborah we are ALL going to hell... hmmm... she has been very messed up.

The truth is that this programme exposed Christianity as a complete farce. If the Bible is meant to be read metaphorically then it's obviously not factual, and therefore not the word of god, but if it's meant to be followed literally then it's a dangerous book with extreme brutality, racism, homophobia, xenophobia and lot's of killing and sacrifices and indeed holy wars. Atheism and rationality lead to nicer, more well rounded people.
look at our facts...
[info]wwjd_wwyd wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 01:11 am (UTC)
i am a christian, i believe in God, and i believe in what Jesus done on the cross. i'm not insisting that everyone becomes a christian because the Bible even reminds us that God gave man his own free will, however the Bible is also all about love and i would just like for everyone who is not a christian to realise that whenever a christian witnesses or warns you about hell, it is not because they want to argue with you, or upset you it is because they genuinely care for you and dont want you to come to any harm - if you believed that something awful was going to happen to someone would you not warn them?

christians it is important not to get caught up in an arguement and get distracted from the message that All have sinned, Jesus died for our sins and that if we believe in him and repent of our sins that He will forgive us our sins. it is not our job to convince people God exists, it is only to tell them what He has done... the rest is up to that individual.

i just want however to leave a suggestion... if you are unsure try reading a King James Bible from start to finish and at the end compare the 'science facts' with 'God's Facts' and from there with an opened mind to both, you will be truely be able to say that you have made an 'informed' choice.

my personal experience... life is harder with out God and i love him for the things that He has done for me, dedorah only goes through the hardships of telling people because she cares for people and i think we should be thrilled that someone would show so much concern for us, regardless if we believe what they are saying or not.

thanks for reading :-)
Deborah 13 Servent of God
[info]wanda_5 wrote:
Friday, 17 April 2009 at 11:41 am (UTC)
Part of me wonders whether this girl understands everything she preaches. At one point in the documentary she says that "the bible says 'dont drink'", when their is not actually a scripture in the bible that says that the consumption of alcohol is wrong but rather you should 'not let your body be mastered by anything'- basically 'dont get plastered'. If you think about it, many people in bible drank wine.
It will be interesting to see if her beliefs change as she grows up and experiences life a little more.

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