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New rail line could halve London-Scotland journey times

By Michael Savage, Transport Correspondent

Journey times from London to Scotland would be halved by building a £34bn high-speed rail line, using a route preferred by Network Rail (NR).

A detailed study by the body responsible for the UK’s rail infrastructure found that passengers would be able to reach Glasgow from the capital in just two hours 16 minutes, down from the current 4.5-hour journey time.

However, the report revealed that the project would generate a net loss of more than £10bn over 60 years, making it likely that the full costs of the project would have to be met by the taxpayer, since funding from private companies would be hard to attract.

Under the proposals, the new trains would run from London and travel to Birmingham, Manchester, Warrington, Liverpool, Preston, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Passengers could reach Birmingham in just 45 minutes.

The report outlined what would be one of the biggest infrastructure projects ever carried out in Britain, with the construction of eight major city centre stations, 1,500 miles of new track, 34 miles of tunnels and the addition of 170 bridges. The new network would see as many as 16 trains an hour (carrying more than 9,000 passengers) head into London. Network Rail said it would also provide a £31.4bn boost to the economy by cutting journey times.

Iain Coucher, chief executive of Network Rail, said that a decision needed to be made urgently on increasing rail capacity as some lines were almost full. “By 2020 we will be turning away passengers,” he said. “We need to start the planning now to meet future demand and the solution is a new high-speed railway to the Midlands, North-west England and Scotland. The line has a sound business case that will pay for itself.”

Network Rail’s analysis raised doubts over the Government’s determination to link any new high-speed line to Heathrow. The addition of a high-speed hub at the airport was one of the key concessions secured by the Climate Change Secretary, Ed Miliband, when the Government approved the addition of a third runway. Network Rail concluded that extending the line itself to the airport would “not make good financial sense”. Adding a spur to link Heathrow to the high-speed line would cost an extra £2.6bn. Network Rail also ruled out links to Leeds, Sheffield and Newcastle as not cost effective.

The study will now be handed to HS2, a company set up by the Government to come up with official plans for a high-speed line to the Midlands. It will report by the end of the year.

The Transport Secretary, Lord Adonis, said that Network Rail had made “a powerful case for high-speed rail in Britain”. He added: “The potential benefits are considerable. This is why virtually every other developed country in the world is now building high-speed rail lines.”

All three main political parties are in favour of a new high-speed rail line, but huge problems remain before firm plans can be laid out. Stephen Glaister, Professor of Transport and Infrastructure at Imperial College, London, said that any line to Scotland would “inevitably cause enormous apposition” from local residents and conservation groups.

He also warned that private funding would not be forthcoming under Network Rail’s plan. “This is a loss-making venture,” he said. “That is not to say it is not worth doing, but it would mean the private sector would provide none of the funding as it is not commercially viable.” He also said that any plans to connect the line directly to Heathrow should be dropped as the extra stop would seriously affect the lower journey times.

Working out an exact route and gaining planning permission would take at least five years. Constructing the network would take much longer. The trains would be unlikely to take passengers before 2030, Network Rail said.

The dire state of Britain’s public finances has also raised concerns that other important projects would be squeezed if the plans for a major high-speed rail network go ahead. Michael Roberts, chief executive of the Association of Train Operating Companies, said: “What is vital is that investment in any new lines allows much needed investment to proceed in other projects, such as the recently-announced electrification of major parts of the network.”

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HIGH-SPEED RAIL POWERED BY TREES
[info]curefx wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 08:02 am (UTC)
It is not unthinkable that the new High-Speed Rail will be powered by Energy Harvesting Trees. Solarbotanic a British has plans to power Trains with there Energy Harvesting Trees. These trees that convert light, heat, sound, rain and wind energy into electricity can be placed adjacent to the railways to deliver power to the trains and to the Grid. The instant delivery of power is cheaper then proposed Hydrofuel propelled trains, furthermore This concept can fit with the existing power infrastructure of Britain's railway. A solutions that will save money and our landscape.
[info]flacksteen wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 09:01 am (UTC)
Those who are fervent believers in 'Getting more people on to trains and out of polluting cars and planes must be our transport future.' might want to look at this report:http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/aug/17/high-speed-rail-environment. Booz Allen, in a report commissioned by HM Government could not show that a high speed line as now proposed was beneficial to the environment. Their study looked exclusively art the pollution issue. There are other factors. The UK is desperately short of land and a completely new rail line would absorb well over 2000 acres of land that could be better used for something (farming, to feed all out new mouths?). High speed trains cause terrible visual an noise pollution. The French are currently up in arms about plans to build a high speed link to Nice, because of the devasatiaiton it would cause in Provence. See, for example http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/arts/design/14abroad.html?pagewanted=all. And the French have far more spare land than we do. Labour has an anti road and anti air lobby They have made their minds up and do not want to be confused by the facts.
[info]iaintom wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:37 pm (UTC)
flacksteen: that study made no allowance for rail taking market share from air or road transport. It also misses one of the big points about electric rail versus car or air travel: electricity can be generated from many different sources, including renewables, and would not be at the mercy of world oil production & future oil shortages, with the related massively increased oil prices.
This is about money, not about transport
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 09:20 am (UTC)
Sorry, but only a few years ago, schemes like this came with a far lower price tag.

At the time when BR was denationalised, it was claimed that the whole network could have been re-built for less than 6 billion.

At the time of the West Coast (London-Glasgow) 'upgrade', it was pointed out that the (inflated) 10 billion cost was high enough to have built a new high-speed line instead. Now they suggest 29 billion.

Sorry, but this is pork-barrel profiteering. This money is just being given over to their friends in the City.
Re: This is about money, not about transport
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 06:13 pm (UTC)
Right - and having to put it all out to tender will triple the cost and time. This whole thing could be done in 5 years, not 10.
Re: This is about money, not about transport
[info]lady_icedragon wrote:
Thursday, 27 August 2009 at 08:46 am (UTC)
I'm not saying that this is the primary issue, as I have no idea how the finance figures are worked out, however:

There is a big difference between rebuilding old track and building new lines. New lines require acquiring the land (which can often be expensive and tricky in itself), clearing, building tunnels and support structures, bridges under and over for existing roads, rails, and footpaths for pedestrians, crossings etc. Pulling up and replacing existing rails does not incur most of those costs (but it does disrupt a lot of people).
HSR
[info]lacommentateur wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 10:32 am (UTC)
If we have only put by the cash wasted on a VAT reduction to invest in a HSR line - just shows you what a bunch of short term thinking prats we have running this nation
Re: HSR
[info]iaintom wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:34 pm (UTC)
Yep - the money could have been spent on infrastructure, while simultaneously providing an economic boost.
£34bn - remember the figure
[info]gmseed wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:26 pm (UTC)
£34bn. Let's all remmeber that figure and see how over budget the final figure is.

Scottish Parliament building originally £40m, ended up £500m. Edinburgh tram system originally £400m, now £562m with an extra £132m just allocated.

Failed NHS computing system more than 3 years overdue and £bns over budget.

When are the monkeys in office going to respect taxpayers hard earned money and realise projects to budget?
Re: £34bn - remember the figure
[info]prof_use wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:56 pm (UTC)
and you have missed out the entire MoD, the national police computer system and of course the Olympic games.

These people are incapable of delivering on budget.

The best way would be to make them more responsible and accountable. Over budget projects come out of their pockets. Fine and fire them

They way overestimate their own capabilities and are way overpaid
Re: £34bn - remember the figure
[info]kuma2000 wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 01:29 pm (UTC)
When you have a blank cheque what is the point of a budget anyway?
Transport
[info]kingofmumu wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:31 pm (UTC)
Public transport should be free. There is no need to make a profit. Plus all utillities should not have to make a profit, they are a public service and not a money machine for private investors. Renationalise everything that has been privatised including the banks. Lets get back to the times when all these industries were overmanned and losing money. The losses can be set against the savings in unemployment benefit. So lets start building a new green railway system, more social housing creating much needed employment.
Re: Transport
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 06:14 pm (UTC)
Hear, hear !
High Speed Train Proposal
[info]alpina045 wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:33 pm (UTC)
This proposal that totally neglects the eastern side of England is a disgrace nd has far greater repercusions than speedy links to London. The west coast was the first to be electrfied in the late 6o's. the east waiting 20 years from which it has not recovered the advantge gained by Birmingham and Manchester. The east will now be denied high speed commercial links with europe and does not even have a proper international airport such as Manchester. Leeds Bradford, Doncaster and Newcastle airports will never be on that scale. Is the east side considered so sub-standard that it is not worth any investment? Everbody complains of a two class Britain but this proposal condemns a huge swathe of England to an underclass
The £billions that were wasted in phoney wars should have paid for it.
[info]stanleycorbett wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC)

The £billions that were wasted in phoney wars should have paid for it.
a fantasy votecatching quiet season "announcement."
[info]brownsheadinbog wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 01:02 pm (UTC)
I remember a huge "rebirth of the railways" announcement by John Prescott in August 2000. Here's another. You get more bangs for the buck if you make an "announcement" during the quiet season when parliament is in recess.
This votecatching "announcement" is a desperate bid by a desperate government to gain votes. Where are they going to find the money for this? The private sector knows that Labour cant be trusted with the railway.
Since they are not going to be in power for much longer, we know they are just grasping for votes.

Are they making an unrealistic plan so that the Tories will be seen to abandon the fantasy plan?

Looks like they are clutching at straws.

Wait for it to be announced it again at the party conference. The 2000 announcement was "announced" again, months later.

london arrogance throwing the rest of us under the bus
[info]sarahsmith232 wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 01:12 pm (UTC)
i just can't f***ing believe this. these f***ing london network rail london idiots. this is all just focused on how to get down to london quickly and the other cities connections have just been tossed aside. there is no direct connection between Edinburgh and Glasgow. no connection between Liverpool and Manchester. the majority of the trips that we take, i'm talking from Manchester, but guessing same with the Scottish, we need our own cities connected. that is what makes up the bulk of the travel. we go down to london and use heathrow only once every 4/12/24 yrs. these proposed routes block any ability to get between the cities marked out quickly. we already have a snail pased rail link between liverpool and mancherster. edinburgh is the 2nd most popular tourist destination in the UK. Glasgow is an architecturally beautiful city but nobody bothers much with it. if it was only 10 mins on the train between the two cities people would. the route proposed will add another 20 mins on between the 2 cities. how is this justifiable? the scottish will go down to london, what? every 4 yrs at most. will travel between their own cities constantly. we outside of london are going to be making up the bulk of the tax payers paying for this but these f***ing london network rail f***s seem to have managed to convince themselves that our every waking moment if focused on how to get down to london quickly. no, we want high speed between our own cities. i don't doubt that glaswegians would be willing to sacrifice that extra 10 mins every 4 to 24 yrs when they do go down to london to ensure that their trips between their own cities is very short.
god, f***ing unbelievable! this is what you get when you hand over responsibility for the rest of the nation to a handful of london idiots.
Re: london arrogance throwing the rest of us under the bus
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 06:16 pm (UTC)
You ignorant Scots don't understand- The idea is that you take the train from Edinburgh down to London, spend a few minutes in a much more advanced form of civilisation, and then take another train, this time to Glasgow.
Re: london arrogance throwing the rest of us under the bus
[info]sarahsmith232 wrote:
Thursday, 27 August 2009 at 06:33 am (UTC)
for god's sake man, for one, i'm English. for two, you talk about ignorance, obviously you have never been anywhere near Edinburgh, it is a breathtakingly beautiful, very affluent, architecturally stunning city, one of Europe's most impressive.
you london air head prat's are no different for the red neck, retard american's posting idiot statements demanding that america boycott then bomb Scotland last week.
enjoy your pig ignorant arrogance and ignorance, you're an embarrassment to England, please do keep the hell out of Scotland and continue to wallow in your embarrassing ignorance, i'm sure they're not going to be losing any sleep about the loss of your London pounds.

The emphasis should be
[info]korudy wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 01:19 pm (UTC)
on capacity, not high speed.

On a whole life basis, the emissions from a Scotland HS2 are unlikely to be any better than air travel.

£34 billion? No chance. Network Rail's record on estimating costs and benefits is lamentable. They promised a 140mph West Coast railway for £2 billion, and delivered a 125mph West Coast railway for £10 billion.

The priorities should be: reactivating the Great Central main line, and building links to it; Great Western electrification to Swansea and Penzance; Midland Main line, and cross-country infill.



Priorities? Cost-Benefit?
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:02 pm (UTC)
Doesn't sound like anyone started with a question like 'Here is 10 billion, what would it buy? What would bring the greatest benefits?'

No, instead, it sounds like someone said, 'We want this, how can we justify it?'

Back on Planet Earth, we know what British Rail could have done with 10 billion of investment. We remember how the East Coast Main Line (London-Edinburgh) was electrified and completely upgraded for no more than 400 million. We know the package of improvements that a couple of billion would bring, in terms of increasing capacity, removing bottlenecks, etc.

34 billion - these numbers are just incredible. British Rail never received that sort of money.

Re: Priorities? Cost-Benefit?
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 04:43 pm (UTC)
A sensible way to make policy would be to have a list of schemes ranked in order of cost-benefit ratio, and to invest in the schemes with highest cost-benefit ratio, as order of priority.

This isn't how this decision was taken.

Lots of low-cost schemes have much higher cost-benefit ratios, allowing better use to be made of existing rail capacity.
Re: Priorities? Cost-Benefit?
[info]littleglimmer wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 07:28 pm (UTC)
That's because British Rail already belonged to all of us. We could spend on it exactly what we needed to spend, with no-one making a profit. Perhaps the worst evil of that arrangement was that some money was wasted in inefficiency, but at least it meant less unemployment and the money circulated in this country.
The dastardly act of the last hours of the Tory Government, to chuck our railways away to private companies with indecent haste has cost this country very dear.
Estimates for work now comes from the private companies - there are no professional project managers left in the Civil Service. This goes for any kind of Government expenditure - MoD, NHS as well.
That's why we are facing these mind-numbing figures. Hope all you greedy bastards enjoy your share dividends!
Energy Consumption?
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:06 pm (UTC)
Only a couple of years ago, we were being told how high speed trains, such as the TGV, used just as much energy as aircraft.

Nothing's changed in the physics, only in the claims being made.
Social Priorities
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:12 pm (UTC)
The government has just forced through the Welfare Reform Act, to cut benefits and force mothers with young children back to work. All this to save about 2 billion a year.

The government doesn't have the money to secure our pensions, for about 5 billion.

But the government does have the money for this - super fast trains for the rich. Already, ordinary people can't aford to go by train.

It's all a question of priorities.
How fares have risen
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:17 pm (UTC)
This is about super fast trains for the rich. Already, ordinary people can't aford to go by train.

In the 1990's BR stole most of the business from National Express, on the route Newcastle-London - BR was that cheap.

In the past, competition from coaches held down rail fares; Comeititon for trains held down plane fares.
Now, competition from airlines holds down the train fares.
NE link required
[info]nilsey105 wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:51 pm (UTC)
I live on the West coast and cant see why the line should not split so as to take in a route to include Leeds, Sunderland, Newcastle and on up to Edinburgh. Or is there a plan to totally ignore the North East of England and speed up its decline ?
HS rail to Scotland but no link between Edinburgh + Glasgow
[info]sarahsmith232 wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 02:53 pm (UTC)
i notice the way the Scottish Nationalists have rolled over for this. anyone Scottish reading this? what do you think about the fact that billions are being spent on HS links to both Edinburgh and Glasgow all so you can get down to london quickly but giving you no ability to get between your own cities quickly?
'cause the fact that Manchester is being connected but only so we can access london and heathrow is disgusting. the link to Liverpool is being blocked ot us. to get to Liverpool we'd have to go out of our way by 20 mins.
same with Edinburgh/Glasgow. so you can't nip out for a drink in each city, can't quickly nip over to ejoy the restaurants, do a bit of shopping etc.
anyone Scottish reading this, please tell me what you think.
Pay for itself?
[info]sportingmac wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 04:15 pm (UTC)
I reckon that it will take 7 years to repay. That will be at £100 per passenger per full train running at the rate of 16 trains an hour for 7 years.

mmmmhhhh - methinks a lot of hot air and bollocks being spoken here.
Cost per passenger
[info]old_green wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 04:34 pm (UTC)
If you work out the number of passengers per day, assuming 20 trains a day in each direction, 650 passengers per train for 30 years, it comes to something like 250 million passengers. This is probably a high-side estimate.

If you divide the 29 billion by 250 million, it comes to a capital cost equivalent to 120 Pounds per passneger journey - each way. That's the capital cost - not including the cost of running the trains, running the railway. So, how much do you think the rail fares are going to work out at? Something ordinary people could afford?

Alternatively, if you divide the claimed 'Benefits' of the line (55 billion) by 250 million passengers, this comes out at about 220 Pounds per journey. Do you think each journey from London to Glasgow brings 'Benefits' to the economy worth 220 Pounds? Or do you think it's a gross exaggeration? Or would you go further and call it an outright lie?
The ideas of power trees
[info]forhavenesake wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 04:35 pm (UTC)
It's not a bad idea to have these power from Solarbotanic power our railway system, this will surely make profit as well
Is the fare coming down with the speed as the train can dock back faster?
[info]famulla wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 05:12 pm (UTC)
High-speed rail line plans to be unveiled
Peter Woodman
Is the fare coming down with the speed as the train can dock back faster?
I thank you
Firozali A Mulla
Re: Is the fare coming down with the speed as the train can dock back faster?
[info]freethinkin wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 05:22 pm (UTC)
eh?
How many times can this be unveiled???
[info]freethinkin wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC)
Blah blah blah. I will belive it when it's built.
[info]davemart wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 05:41 pm (UTC)
Most of this cost is for the benefit of Scotland at cost to the English taxpayer.
Linking to Manchester and Liverpool only costs around £7 billion of the total, and would be profitable.
The other £27billion or so is yet another present from the Labour party to Scotland, whilst England has to pay more for everything from University education to prescriptions.
Nobody elected this absurdly-named god of beauty
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 06:18 pm (UTC)
Lord Adonis my arse. Nobody elected him, so who does he think he is, poncing about telling us what's going to happen?
HIGH-SPEED SCOTTISH SUBSIDIES
[info]diddleedee wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 10:39 pm (UTC)
Why would anyone want to travel to Glasgow or Scotland? The only thing that travels up there, (at the speed of light) is the billions of OUR pounds in subsidies to every man, woman and child living there. Organised, of course, by the SCOTTISH MAFIA, our unelected Prime Minister and his mate(?) Tony Blair.
and
[info]cyanide_bunny wrote:
Wednesday, 26 August 2009 at 10:55 pm (UTC)
if we upgraded the rail network to accommodate trains that traveled 1000mph we could do the same journey in 15 mins. the extra time is to allow the trains to get up to speed. i've thought this through carefully see. and we wouldn't need a buffet car because there wouldn't be time. more room for passengers. its a win win situation. wait. how about 2000mph trains?

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