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£20bn Trident arsenal must be scrapped, say retired forces chiefs

By Andrew Grice, Political Editor

Two retired defence chiefs have urged the Government to scrap the Trident nuclear weapons system.

Lord Ramsbotham, a former adjutant-general who became the chief inspector of prisons, and Field Marshal Lord Bramall, a former chief of the defence staff, appealed to ministers to think again about their 2007 decision to renew Trident at a cost of up to £20bn. The money would be better spent on the precision weapons needed for current conflicts, they argued.

The two peers, who made their call in a letter in today's Times newspaper, said the weapons system was not an "independent" deterrent because Britain could never use it without the backing of the US. Lord Ramsbotham told BBC TV's Newsnight the decision to upgrade Trident was taken on political rather than military grounds. "It was a Cold War weapon. It is not a weapon for the situation we are now in," he said.

It would be of no value if Britain were subjected to "nuclear blackmail" by international terrorists, he added.

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Trident Designer Says Don't Build Another One
[info]proximaking wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 07:08 am (UTC)
I worked on the design of the first Trident submarines back in the 1980's and to be honest it should never have been built even then and with new "see through planet" technologies being worked on now seeing through a few hundred feet of water is a doddle. For an idiot's eye view of where the new technologies are going Shell have some information by Googling Shell Boffin Sinclair. Maybe not such a crackpot after all if you know what I mean, hint, hint, say no more.
The elephant in the room...
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 08:08 am (UTC)
Is that the US won't let us say no....

The Guardian uncovered massive bilking by Halliburton and Carlyle Group to the tune of 900m a year in regards to DML and the servicing of Trident and there is no way these two corporations are going to let go of this fat pay-day anyday soon, indeed Blair quashed any investigation into this theft from the taxpayer and no doubt that figure has grown since the Guardian expose.

But there is more to the Independence of the Tridents, under NATO rules, the US can also seize the use of our subs and direct them to their own targets yet we cannot fire them without the keys the US provides, the codes may be our own, the missile keys are not and we rent the missiles from the US with the majority of our stock held in the US armoury.

The worrying thing on the US control of our subs is that it was suggested that the US use ours to initiate a first strike against Iran with nuclear weapons in a kind of suck it and see scenario to see the worlds reaction and also how Iran reacted too, the fact that our troops would of died fairly quickly in such a response from Iran showed the throwaway use of America's allies, America would have been able to claim poker faced it did not authorise or carry out this strike and was judged as a means to achieve what the US wanted at little cost to its own people.

Since the baiting of the Russian's has led to its own military build up, it would seem the the importance of the unsinkable aircraft carrier in Europe will gain momentum as well, it would seem that the baiting is purposeful in order that America can keep a stranglehold on Europe when the US should be leaving, America views that Europe should remain its personal battlefield and any future wars to be held over here, rather than on the mainland northern American continent.

The poor people of Poland and Czechoslovakia really don't understand the importance of this themselves, any first retaliation or strike will likely see Ukraine, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Georgia levelled and incapacitated, swiftly followed by strategic bases elsewhere in Europe including here in the UK, our Trident fleet with its handful of weapons would little counter this, what do we have operational at any time...? 4, 6, 12 missiles even? compared with the thousands in prelaunch state the Russians have, our deterrent is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
Trident
[info]sayerheyd wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 09:06 am (UTC)
There is no justification for Trident, but the saving would be better used in saving lives
I'm minded of...
[info]ancientoneuk wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 10:11 am (UTC)
Peter Cook in Whoops Apocalpyse where he hands out Union flag umbrellas as a deterrent against Russian nuclear attack, on reflection of my earlier post, I think that the British public should wake up to the fortune we are being expected to pay for a farcical situation.

The thing about nuclear war is its over quite quick, I can just imagine a stern letter from Gordon Brown to Vladimir Putin asking if the Russians could be awfully good chaps and wait a day or two whilst we get out our missiles from the US Nuclear Storage Lockers (Guarded by Israel but thats another story)...

So as Russia sends over a swathe of MRV's and ICBM's into Europe and North America... our 4 missiles will really change the face of war, in fact I wonder if Russia would probably not factor in taking the loss for a scenario of dominance which it surely would have in this situation.

It wouldn't cost Russia much in missilery either to erase life here in Britain, 10-20 MRV's would see pretty much the UK a radiation desert, we cannot even think along the terms of MAD, our response would be so limited it would seem pathetic.

We don't need nuclear weapons, either way we will lose and more likely so if we are targetted because we pose a threat, the other claim of losing our status in the UN is also easily disproven as we may not be the most powerful nation by a long shot, Iran and Syria have much larger militaries than we do, what we have though is the worlds finances channelling through London and Europe's old money focused here, economic warfare can be as equally devastating as any nuclear one.
Obvious, but it needed saying
[info]jonah_1 wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 10:42 am (UTC)
The government's profligate spending on white elephants is a national scandal. The Trident programme is particularly egregious because, while they cook up plans to update this vanity project, soldiers are being sent into war zones with insufficient and substandard equipment. It's simply immoral. There was some case for nuclear weapons while there was a cold war, nowadays there is simply none. The UK and France are the only two countries in Europe with nuclear weapons, and the only two with pretensions to 'world power' status. We are a small but wealthy nation on the edge of continental Europe, these weapons are used to claim bragging rights for people still dreaming of empire, it's time to grow up. Trident, ID cards, the centralised communication database, etc. 10s of billions of pounds are being frittered away.
Trident Missile System
[info]bengillespie wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 10:57 am (UTC)
It must be bought to the attention of the public that these comments have been made by ex-Army Generals who have an indentured hatred of the Royal Navy whom currently maintain the UK's missile system. I fear that these comments have been made out of jealousy rather than clear thought, by individuals who wish to bring the senior service to its knees in an environment where competition for defence funding is at its greatest.
Trident Replacement
[info]bryanmcgrath wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 11:07 am (UTC)
It has amazed me that so few people have highlighted the folly of replacing Trident. I am sure the only reason Blair held onto the premiership until June 2007 was that Brown wanted the tricky decisions on Trident and nuclear power stations to be made by the Blair government, not his incoming "Government Of All the Talents". Brown's particular concern was use of the 1983 Labour Party Political Broadcast in which Brown appears advocating unilateral nuclear disarmament: the Tories would have a field day with that one.

So Britain will be landed with an obsolete cold war weapon system in order to avoid embarrassment to the Stalinist Prime Minister Brown, ironic to say the least.

A nuclear tipped submarine launched cruise missile system, held on the Astute class submarines (or revised version) makes much more sense at a fraction of the cost.
Independence
[info]marklawden wrote:
Friday, 16 January 2009 at 12:16 pm (UTC)
The trouble with this debate is that it tends to degenerate into people making silly sarcastic debating points from a position of assumed moral superiority. There is a serious debate to be had about the cost-effectiveness of nuclear weapons in our current defence situation and also about how such a capability could if necessary be provided at minmum cost. The question of the independence of Trident from the US is probably irrelevant. If the US withdrew all nuclear support from the UK the Trident system's effectiveness would start to degrade, but it would do so quite slowly not instantaneously. My understanding from what is publically published is that the British PM could if he wished order Trident to be launched without the US having any ability to prevent that launch. He could even, if really crazy, order Trident to be launched at Washington and as far as I know the missile would fly and go bang at the other end. It is obviously extremely difficult to envisage a situation in which having nuclear capability would be of real value to a British PM and that, not the question of independence is the real issue to be debated. Britain has been involved in many wars and conflicts since 1945 and in none of them has our possession of nuclear weapons been of any practical importance. If we had been defeated conventionally in the Falklands war for instance we would just have had to take it on the chin and our nukes would have been useless to us. I'm sure there is an element of interservice rivalry in this debate, but it must be annoying to soldiers to be sent by politicians into conflicts with inadequate equipment and manpower when large sums are spent on procuring a hugely sophisticated weapons system that is of no practical use in the wars we actually fight. A really good radio communications system would cost far less than a Trident replacement and would greatly increase our army's effectiveness. The navy might also benefit by calling a halt to strategic nukes after Trident as what they really need are more hulls in the water that can actually do the tasks that need doing rather than missile subs whose main purpose in life is to remain undetected and do nothing. Precision weapons can now do many things that were previously impossible without kilotonnage and we face a different sort of enemy than we did in the cold war so this debate needs to happen, but lets not bother with silly CND style name-calling and posturing.
Trident
[info]sane_person wrote:
Saturday, 17 January 2009 at 12:14 pm (UTC)
I agree with the analysis by the retired forces chiefs on the scrapping of the new trident system. On Newsnight it was said by an opposition MP that South Africa had 'lost' credibility over its unilateral decision to scrap its nuclear arsenal. I beg to differ: Nelson Mandela is a world statesman in a way that Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher are not. Those two pro-war PMs have no credibility compared to Nelson Mandela. The UK would gain a lot of respect if it scrapped Trident and would be in a strong position to broker peace between India and Pakistan, for example. Also then the UK government could put some pressure on Israel to scrap its nuclear program.

A sane person.

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