UK

10° London Hi 14°C / Lo 8°C

'Free speech' defeats incitement laws

By Nicholas Randall and Anthony Looch, Press Association

Peers today defeated the Government's attempt to overturn a "free speech" defence to the law on homophobic hatred.

The move by Tory former Home Secretary Lord Waddington to uphold the provision was passed by 186 votes to 133, majority 53.

Lord Waddington defeated the Government twice in the Lords on his amendment to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill in April and May 2008.

Justice Secretary Jack Straw, who was under pressure to turn the Bill into legislation before a voluntary "no strike" agreement with the Prison Officers' Association ended, eventually accepted the provision.

But the Government is attempting to use the Coroners and Justice Bill, which is in its committee stage in the House of Lords, to remove the clause from the statute book.

Lord Waddington's amendment provided a protection for "discussion or criticism of sexual conduct or practice" to the law on incitement to hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation.

He told peers: "What is needed is what we have now got, a statutory provision that says that one mustn't assume from mere discussion or criticism of a sexual practice that there is an attempt to stir up hatred, one must look at the circumstances and the manner in which the words are spoken to see whether they were in fact threatening and driven by hate."

Tory and Liberal Democrat peers were given a free vote on the issue and the Government was more overwhelmingly defeated than last year. When the issue was first discussed, Lord Waddington's move was backed by 81 to 57 in a late-night vote. And when it was returned to the Lords by the Commons, voting was 178 to 164.

Crossbencher Lord Dear, a former chief constable and inspector of constabulary, a co-sponsor of the move to strike down the Government's plan, argued the "free speech" clause had helped the police.

He told peers: "Prior to this House approving the Waddington amendment a year ago, the police regularly received complaints from homosexual groups that exception was taken to remarks that homosexuality was deplored on religious grounds. They were forced to act."

"With the Waddington amendment the police are released from a virtual strait-jacket that was imposed on them before," he added.

"They can exercise common sense and good judgment on the day and they can police with a light touch."

The Bishop of Winchester, the Right Reverend Michael Scott-Joynt, said: "What is at stake is whether this House and this Parliament intends to outlaw, among not just Christians but others, open discussion and teaching of views that differ from the currently dominant political orthodoxy."

He said the current orthodoxy was that sexual orientation was "more akin to ethnicity than it is to religious belief".

Liberal Democrat Lord Lester of Herne Hill, supporting the Government's position, said that there were already "adequate safeguards".

He said that removing Lord Waddington's provision would not mean "jokes involving gay people being outlawed, it would not prevent expression of opposition to same-sex relationships where the discussion does not amount to threatening language with the intention of stirring up hate".

But he said he feared that if the provision was retained it could create a "legal loophole" that would allow extremists to stir up hatred.

Tory ex-Cabinet minister Lord Tebbit said: "There is no evidence that Lord Waddington's amendment to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill has caused any outbreak of homophobic attacks or any of these other nonsenses mentioned. An outbreak of emotionalism is obscuring the facts."

Lord Thomas of Gresford, for Liberal Democrats, said his side would have a free vote but he would oppose Lord Waddington's amendment. Tory Lord Kingsland, for Tories, said that his side would also have a free vote but that he would support Lord Waddington.

Replying to the debate, justice minister Lord Bach said the Commons had previously repeatedly, by large majorities, rejected the Waddington "free speech" amendment.

He said that if it were removed, the Government would be issuing guidance to the police to clarify the nature of the offence of stirring up homophobic hatred.

"We have listened to the concerns about artistic expression, and the rights of people like comedians," he said.

"In formulating the offence, we had no intention of stifling debate about sexual orientation or interfering with the preaching of religious doctrine, or of making it more difficult to portray homosexual characters in comedy.

"The question before us today is whether we need the freedom of expression provision. We have always maintained we do not. It is unnecessary but there will be those who decide to take advantage of it, to the disadvantage of others."

A Ministry of Justice spokesperson said: "It is disappointing that the Lords have voted to retain the 'freedom of expression' section in relation to the offence of inciting hatred on grounds of sexual orientation.

"There is no doubt about the threshold of this offence. No 'freedom of expression' section is needed to explain it. The threshold is a high one. The offence only covers words or behaviour that is threatening and intended to stir up hatred.

"The 'freedom of expression' section only serves to make the offence less clear, and could be used by those attempting to justify stirring up hatred by a 'free speech' argument.

"The Government will seek to reverse this when the Bill returns to the Commons in the autumn."

Post a Comment

View all comments that have been posted about this article.

Offensive or abusive comments will be removed and your IP logged and may be used to prevent further submission. In submitting a comment to the site, you agree to be bound by the Independent Minds Terms of Service.

Comments

Same old Tories
[info]peteran wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 04:07 pm (UTC)
What ever Cameron says, there is still plenty of hatred on the nasty wing of the Conservative party.
Some common sense
[info]mike_spain wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 04:26 pm (UTC)
At least the majority in the Lords can see through this governments smokescreen. Without a guarantee of freedom of expression any minority nutter who feels he or she has been slighted would be going to the police with the aim of getting some spurious pay out. We've all ready see a myriad of supposed racists claims like the Muslim girl who wouldn't wear a restaurants dress code because of its style only to re-appear on U tube showing her half decent cleavage. If everyone was allowed to pull these stunts just because of some reasonable debate that disagreed with them, the courts would be clogged and justice and freedoms would go to hell in a hand basket. We used to have freedom of speech & expression enshrined in law as a default position but now under Labour we need specific legislation to protect our freedom of expression.
Free Speech is a human right
[info]bobhutton wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC)
I don't hate gays and condemn violence, and moreover, gays do have human rights; however, as an evangelical Christian, I have human rights as well - the right to peaceably express my beliefs on homosexulality without the fear of the police knocking on my door.
The lords are right here
[info]abcd101 wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 05:41 pm (UTC)
I am bisexual - not to everyone's taste - and lots of criticism is leveled at bisexual people, often more so than at strictly gay people. And do you know what - fair enough, although I don't agree with that criticism. When we can't criticise we lose our freedoms, including the freedom to be bisexual.

The Lords have been sensible - as they often are, and have been over the last few years on id cards, iraq and many other things. If the words, in their context, are hateful, then the words are wrong and should be prosecuted. If they are merely critical then so what....if you don't like the words, then just move along. Sticks and stones...and all that malarky
Free speach
[info]nexus_20 wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 05:47 pm (UTC)
Either we believe in it or we don't, they have every right to say what they like about homosexuality, just as we have every right to call them a pathetic bunch of backward halfwits who worship an imaginary friend, who never returns their calls.
Re: Free speach
[info]john_b_ellis wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 07:04 pm (UTC)
Spot on, nexus! And I say that as a convinced Christian for whom it did no harm at all to be told that I was a backward half-wit who worships an imaginary friend - or something like that! How otherwise would I have been encouraged to really think what I believed and why if I hadn't encountered honest friends and acquaintances who challenged me and made me think, and weren't afraid to do so pungently? When we can no longer challenge ideas, beliefs and preconceptions, all of us are impoverished.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of wit and wits, double e for "speech" (subject heading!).
Good
[info]rendevou5 wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 06:21 pm (UTC)
In which case, I submit that they need to look again at Incitement Law.

Personally, I'm willing to listen to free speech whilst accepting responsibility for avoiding attempts to incite me.

Otherwise, I accept the consequences of allowing myself to become the victim of incitement.
Great news
[info]berewic wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 06:30 pm (UTC)
Now we can call a sick twisted pervert, a sick twisted pervert without the threat of prosecution.

I don't hate sick twisted perverts and I'm not attempting to incite hatred towards sick twisted perverts. However, the sooner these perv's realise their disgusting behaviour is unacceptable to normal decent members of the public, the sooner we can call this sick NuLiebour country a democracy.
Re: Great news
[info]abcd101 wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 09:57 pm (UTC)
Protesteth too much me thinks..

I also presume that you think homosexuality is a crime against nature notwithstanding that evidence now shows that most species of life on earth exihibit homosexual behaviour. Seems strangely perverted mother nature n est-ce-pas

.....No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphids. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.
Petter Bockman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
Re: Great news
[info]berewic wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 10:34 pm (UTC)
How many of these species are so proud they march in celebration of their perversion?

How many consider the unfortunate parents of these perverted individuals who live their lives in perpetual shame?
Re: Great news
[info]dtnorth wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 11:35 am (UTC)
As a Professor of Cardiology and as a gay man who does not live in "perpetual shame", I can guarantee that my "unfortunate" parents are extremely proud of me and my accomplishments in life.

Sir, if I were your parents, I CAN guarantee that I WOULD be disgusted by your attitude to your fellow man.

And indeed, if you were unfortunate enough to come to my private consultancy with cardiological problems and you displayed said attitude to me. I CAN most certainly guarantee that you would be shown the door.
Re: Great news
[info]berewic wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 11:42 am (UTC)
I CAN guarantee that under NO circumstances would I seek any advice or help of any kind from a pervert and would be out the door long before your need to show it me, or the door.

I am proud to announce that I do not consider you or your type to be men, never mind fellow men.

As for your parents, does there pride in you include the knowledge you regularly "take it in the arse"?

You sick FK.
Re: Great news
[info]dtnorth wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 12:23 pm (UTC)
You are a lovely individual aren't you.

As for my parents knowing that I take it in the @...., I'm afraid I do not discuss my sex life with them.

Do you.

And as for taking it in the @....., yet again you show your sad neanderthal ignorance in that some gay men do not partake of this activity, just as some heterosexual women do.



Re: Great news
[info]berewic wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC)
So you admit your shame keeps your perversion secret from your parents yet rejoice in there pride of a son they clearly do not know.
Re: Great news
[info]dtnorth wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 01:03 pm (UTC)
Nope, I admitted nothing of the sort. I simply stated that I do not discuss what I do in bed. They are well aware of my situation and couldn't care one jot.

Go on.

Admit it.

With all that angst and bile, you really must be a self loathing closet case.


Re: Great news
[info]dtnorth wrote:
Friday, 10 July 2009 at 07:53 pm (UTC)
Still unable to reply. Such anger. Such Vitriol.

Is it your own personal God, telling you these things or just your lack of education.

Perhaps personal disgust at what other people do in their private lives.

The latter being the case, then some Psychiatric treatment may help.


Free Speech is a human right
[info]bobhutton wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 06:33 pm (UTC)
I don't hate gays and condemn violence, and moreover, gays do have human rights; however, as an evangelical Christian, I have human rights as well - the right to peaceably express my beliefs on homosexulality without the fear of the police knocking on my door.
Well done to the Lords!
[info]upandaboutearly wrote:
Thursday, 9 July 2009 at 11:04 pm (UTC)
We cannot have a situation in this country where upsetting someone with words alone becomes a criminal offense unless it can be clearly shown to be detrimental to society as a whole. There is a vast difference between a couple of extremists chatting on a street corner and talking about blowing up a police station or bus and someone telling someone else to stop being such a silly poof.

The gay community are very loud and proud about THEIR rights but very low and soft and the rights of heterosexuals. I have heard all kinds of hateful remarks and seen, with my own eyes, blatant sexual intimidation aimed at straight men and women from members of the homosexual minorities. In fact, go and watch the Vagina Monologues to see women crowing about how good it is to commit lesbian rape on a child, for just one disgusting example.

Well done to the Lords. Free speech is too important to be left in the hands of this authoritarian bunch in government.

Most popular in UK News



Article Archive

Day In a Page

Sun | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat

Select date