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Our man in Cairo rashly enters Egypt's veil debate

Muslims upset over comments about ban on women wearing the niqab

By Jane Merrick, Political Editor

Dominic Asquith caused a stir over the niqab as worn by these Egyptian women

ap

Dominic Asquith caused a stir over the niqab as worn by these Egyptian women

As the great-grandson of the Liberal Prime Minister Herbert Asquith, and as a rising star in the Foreign Office, Britain's ambassador to Cairo should be fluent in the carefully crafted language of negotiation and diplomacy.

But Dominic Asquith has caused upset among Muslims after comments he wrote in a blog in which he entered the hotly contested and sensitive debate over whether women should be allowed to wear the niqab in Egypt. Mr Asquith, 52, described the niqab – the full-face veil – as a "symbol" of Islam rather than central to the religion and insisted that not wearing it did not make women any less Islamic.

He also compared the wearing of the niqab to women beginning to attend Catholic churches without the head veil in the 1960s, adding that "change is always difficult".

Muslims commenting on his blog accused him of representing a country with a "bloody history" and claiming that the "Catholic church is the last place to learn lessons from".

But in a second blog defending his position, Mr Asquith risked further criticism by saying: "We cannot presume to know the mind of God and whether God attaches importance to the symbols we have adopted... It goes to the heart of what is ritual in religion and what is dogma."

Mr Asquith's original blog post was written earlier this month following an incident at an Egyptian university where a leading Islamic cleric asked a student to remove her niqab. Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi, the head of the Al-Azhar University, has banned female students and teachers from wearing the full-face veil in class. The Egyptian government is concerned about the rise in women wearing the veil in the country. But Muslim opposition groups in Egypt have said the ban amounts to an attack on personal freedom.

Mr Asquith wrote that the row reminded him of the 1960s, when Catholic women, including his own mother and aunt, no longer covered their heads when they entered church. He wrote: "I remember how difficult it was for some Catholics 50 years ago to accept the changes – to the symbols and the traditions. It is not impious to suggest a reasoned debate about religious matters, which focuses on the essence of our religion, not its symbols."

However polished Mr Asquith believed his language to be, it provoked an angry response.

While one respondent, "Shohrat", said he respected the ambassador's view, "Hisham" accused Mr Asquith of "sticking your nose in something that has nothing to do with you, your country, your religion, or your Catholic sect". Another, Mansour Jamil, wrote that the "Catholic church is the last place to learn lessons from".

In response last week, Mr Asquith wrote, rather diplomatically, that he found the comments "very rewarding – including from those who thought that, as a Catholic and a British ambassador (it was not quite clear to me which was worse in their eyes!), I was unqualified to voice an opinion".

The ambassador, in a reference to the niqab, said believers who did not adopt "symbols traditionally associated with their religion" were not un-Islamic. "If they choose not to do so, I can't believe that makes them less devout or less religious persons."

Mr Asquith is a fluent Arabic speaker and classicist educated at Ampleforth and Oxford. Before taking up the Cairo posting in 2007, he was ambassador to Baghdad during a difficult two-year period for Britain in the Iraq conflict, including the hostage-taking of five Britons.

Foreign Office ministers and diplomats have been blogging on the Foreign Office website since 2006, but when David Miliband, a keen blogger, became Foreign Secretary in 2007, the activity was stepped up.

Mr Asquith, who was born in Zanzibar and is a cousin of the actress Helena Bonham Carter, has written a blog since May this year.

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Comments

Family matters
[info]theelectrician wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 07:11 am (UTC)
"Mr Asquith, who was born in Zanzibar and is a cousin of the actress Helena Bonham Carter,..."

Good family connections are so important don't you know.
Well done, Mr Asquith
[info]oomigoolies wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 08:53 am (UTC)
...for telling these Muslim fatheads that dress has sweet f.a. to do with religion. But, of course, there will always be some twerp (invariably male) to defend the utter rightness of Islam's peripherals.

Such a decent religion. Such a bunch of bigots.
should be quiet
[info]qunfuz wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 10:04 am (UTC)
I agree completely with waht he said, but think that, as a representative of the British government, he should nevertheless shut up. Does he not realise that he is helping the pro-niqab side here? Lord Cromer in Egypt is one of the people who originally politicised head coverings.
an example
[info]humanright wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 10:12 am (UTC)
It is nice to see pliticians or diplomats engage in a polite way in these discussions as long as they do not use hate speach or support wars
Masked Women
[info]door_stop wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 10:20 am (UTC)

Niquabs, Burkas, get used to 'em. They'll be coming to a High Street near you, soon.
Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 12:23 pm (UTC)

Mary, mother of Jesus, never wore a nikab (face covering) but she wore a hijab (head covering) in public.

As she is the most honoured woman, Muslim women should look towards her dress code as an example.

The nikab is an optional item of clothing in Islam. Zealots in some parts of the world have turned it into a compulsary item of clothing.
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]ourmaninferney wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 05:47 pm (UTC)
Why should anybody copy what some figurehead wore two millennia ago? Are you suggesting that men should wear togas or woad? Of course not, so why fixate on determining what women "should" wear instead of allowing them the freedom to choose. The real freedom to choose, not some Islamic version in which the freedom to choose not to wear the niqab will result in death.

The ambassador's blog was spot on, but as usual, the fundamentalists don't want their cosy little world disturbing.
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 05:55 pm (UTC)

Religious rules on clothing for men and women are about high moral values and decency.

The "freedom to choose" gives us what we have today - women who consider themselves full clothed but appear near naked.

Islam doesnt kill anyone for dress code - I have no idea where you get that from. Maybe you've been watching too much Fox News.
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]ourmaninferney wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 06:06 pm (UTC)
Rules on clothing are nothing to do with moral values or decency - they're about one half of the population controlling the other half.

If a woman choose to wear little, that is her choice. The fact that you have a problem with that reflects more on you than on her.

How many days ago was a woman sentenced to a thousand lashes for the "crime" of wearing trousers? If it wasn't for massive international media and diplomatic attention, what state do you think she would now be in...? Says it all, really.
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 07:19 pm (UTC)

You are thinking about here and now. Most religious people think of the day they will meet God and take the stand to account for their compliance with His rules and recommendations.

You may be a disbeliever. In that case, this dress code is of no relevance to you, you should move on.

There are 1.57 billion Muslims, most live ordinary but good and hassle free lives. Dont just latch onto the 21st century rules created by a few zealots - like the trousers example.
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]palestinian_ian wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 11:54 pm (UTC)
How do you know what Mary, the mother of Jesus wore? From pictures in church?
Re: Mary - the most honoured woman in Islam
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Monday, 2 November 2009 at 08:49 am (UTC)

There are many sources. In fact, even women in the UK had a tradition of wearing the head scarves (hijab) in public until about 100 years ago. The Muslim girls who wear the headscarves would have blended in with the local English girls very easily.
Islam Ad Nauseum
[info]firstmutineer wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 12:58 pm (UTC)


Wouldn't it be great if there was no religion called Islam? Then we wouldn't have to read about the chattering classes infatuation with Burquas Niqabs Minarets Sharia and the great debate about a womans right to choose (to be stoned to death for adultery)

To be fair, it would be pretty cool if there was no religion called Judaism too. Just think No Israeli Zionist crap in the papers either. No more bombing Gaza children from F16s. No suicide bombings in buses in Jerusalem as well. In fact no such place as Jerusalem.

And as for christianity don't get me started.

Abrahamic faiths really suck. Monotheism is poo. Lets all worship Isis The great Mother Goddess. How about we all become Buddhists?. Violent kiddies out there in Cyberspace need not worry - its not all Peace and Love. There was a chap called Suzuki who helped buddhists support the Japanese in world war 2. That's when he wasn't making motorbikes.

Instead of getting their rocks off about Islamic Burquas and Nazi Death camps Western liberals could salivate over Emperor Hirohito and the rape of Nanking . Modern Japanese people might get upset but didn't the infamous General Tojo notoriously say '' if you want to make an Omlette you have to add milk salt and pepper''

Such decent religion. Such a Bunch of bigots. BANZAI!!
Typical Brits
[info]mrbrown2 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 02:43 pm (UTC)
Why is it that we have to always poke our noses into other peoples affairs? It's not our business to force people in other countries to "change". If we spent more effort and money in dealing with the problems of alcoholism, racism and government fraud in our own country, then the world may see us as a good role model. As for now, with the disgusting state of social deprivation in the UK, it's a wonder that anyone takes us seriously.

And as for using the Catholic Church as a role model...
Re: Typical Brits
[info]ourmaninferney wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 05:58 pm (UTC)
Unless I misread something, he didn't hold the Catholic church up as a role model, but as an example of a case where rigid dogma can change without causing the underlying religious beliefs to fall apart.

As for poking noses, I assume that if your neighbour's kids were constantly covered in bruises, you'd probably want to check that nothing was amiss. Or would you consider that "poking your nose into other peoples' business"? I presume that in the case in question, you would prefer that we all keep quiet about the subjugation of women under religious pretexts. Or, to take an example that is "religion-free", you would prefer that we all turn a blind eye to the use of child labour in the production of footballs and tea? After all, what they do with their kids is "their business"...
Silver spoons and dynasties ...
[info]john_b_ellis wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC)
Seems a reasonable debate, and Mr Asquith makes reasoned comments. Can't quite see what it has to do with his diplomatic role, though. Maybe he just blogs as a hobby. Even a diplomat's entitled to have one, I guess.

Curious how many charmed families there are in Britain's echelons of power and influence. Here we have an Asquith popping up again, a century after his famous forebear. When I was a kid, Sir Reginald Manningham-Buller was a knight-of-the-shires (what else with a name like that!) Tory MP, and then, decades after, Eliza Manningham-Buller crops up as head of MI5, and now, in retirement, sits in the Lords. Surely, with so distinctive a name, they have to be related. Francis Maude's a Tory MP, like his now departed dad Angus before him. About-to-depart moat-cleaning on expenses MP Douglas Hogg was the son of the rumbustuous Lord Hailsham, whose own dad, in turn, was also Lord Chancellor in his time. Manure-spreading on expenses David Heathcote-Amory's surely related to Derek H-A, a minister back in Macmillan's time; indeed, there was an H-A in the government at the start of World War I. The Prince of Darkness is grandson to Herbert Morrison. Hilary is the third generation of parliamentary Benns.

Equal opportunities? I wonder ... ! In the 60s, when "things they were a-changing", I thought in my innocence that, in Britain, who you knew would in time start to matter less than what you knew. But I should have remembered the message of an older song: "It ain't necessarily so"!

Still, some dynasties do drop out. Reggie Manningham-Buller shared the green benches with other toffs with magnificent monickers whose line, at least politically speaking, seems to have died out. Sir Harry Legge-Bourke and Sir Hugh Lucas Tooth seem to have produced no parliamentary successors.

Still, though the contemporary Commons may lack teeth, there seems to be no shortage of bourkes, even though they don't bear the name ...
Huge difference
[info]terribleblodge wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 07:12 pm (UTC)
The huge difference between the Catholics in the 1960's and the Muslims today is that the Muslims are being told they CAN'T wear the veil. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case with the Catholics in the 1960's. Just out of curiosity just how stupid is this Asquith character that he can't see that glaring difference?
Nikab
[info]gollymolly44 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 07:27 pm (UTC)
I think the nikab should be compulsory for all Muslims except women. I just cannot stomach those unkempt beards.......
[info]buch898 wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 09:58 pm (UTC)
The comments on this article are as revealing about our own class prejudice here in the UK, as about our freedom to debate. Since when has someone's social standing made their views more or less worthwhile? Our own culture and ideals are about a freedom to have an informed, resoned debate, whoever you are (!), of course our Ambasardors should be encouraging and fostering such ideals wherever we are represented.
Noses out!
[info]barncactus wrote:
Sunday, 1 November 2009 at 10:00 pm (UTC)
I lived in Cairo for years. It has changed radically (in all senses) since the 70's, and is now less 'westernised'. A lot of women wear various degrees of religious style, concealing headgear. But so what? The important thing is that the head wear is not forced on unwilling women. However, if it was, there would be almost nothing that could be done about it in Egyptian society, still very male-oriented. It is the Egyptians' country, not ours. We do not make the rules any more, and have not for quite some while.
Ambassadors and diplomats of all levels should refrain from commenting on the customs of their places of work, and in particular, the religious ones. The blogger who commented that the UK was hardly a good example to follow was right.
veil
[info]tifter wrote:
Monday, 2 November 2009 at 05:27 pm (UTC)
The women are still too visible. Surely modern science has a cloaking device so the women could be totally invisible. Then they would no longer have to wear that creepy outfit. They look like ghouls, or dead creatures. Is that the point? Female mutilation is prevalent in Egypt too. This is misogynist in nature, pure and simple.
The mother of Jesus wore clothing that wasn't tailored because there was no such thing as tailoring. God said a woman's crowning glory is her hair. So,show your hair and show your face. If a man has dirty thoughts when he sees a woman he should remember she was created in the likeness of God,like him.
A man's thoughts are reflective of the condition of his heart and the condition of his heart is a reflection of his relationship with God.
American King James Version
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." Ezekial 36:26

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