Afghanistan: The unsustainable in pursuit of the unbeatable

Nine years after the invasion, US-led forces are still trying to pin down and defeat the elusive Taliban

By David Randall and Jonathan Owen

British Marines in action during operations near Kajaki, Helmand province

Getty Images

British Marines in action during operations near Kajaki, Helmand province

At midnight last night, the United States formally recorded its most lethal month in the seemingly endless war in Afghanistan. Some 66 servicemen died – at least two a day, every day, for 31 days. That was July. June was the deadliest for the coalition as a whole, and the first six months of 2010 were among the bloodiest for civilians since records began in 2007. What will August bring? Or September and October, months which, General David Petraeus, the US commander, has warned may well bring even more intense fighting? By that time, the war will have gone into its 10th year, and so will move towards, and beyond, the landmark when it will have lasted longer than the First and Second World Wars combined.

It is, especially for the Afghan people, a war without end, and one to add to their history of other fruitless conflicts. An Independent on Sunday assessment, using records kept by Professor Marc Herold of the University of New Hampshire and the UN, puts the civilians killed as a direct result of the war since 2001 at 13,746. Last year, the toll of those who died directly or indirectly was estimated by another US academic to be as high as 32,000.

Meanwhile, the US continues to pile in troops. American strength stands at about 95,000, and by the end of August the figure is expected to swell to 100,000 – three times the number in early 2009. As a result, US commanders have been stepping up the fight against the insurgents in their longtime strongholds such as the Arghandab Valley, Panjwaii and Zhari – all on the outskirts of Kandahar city, the biggest urban area in the ethnic Pashtun south, and the Taliban's spiritual birthplace, where support for the insurgency runs deep.

Yet, as the US and its allies step up pressure around Kandahar, Taliban resistance has also intensified in Helmand to the west and in Zabul to the east. And there were disconcerting scenes in Kabul on Friday. Police fired weapons into the air to disperse a crowd of angry Afghans who shouted "Death to America!", hurled stones and set fire to two vehicles after an SUV, driven by US contract employees, was involved in an accident that killed four Afghans.

Yesterday, hundreds of UK troops, together with Afghan army units, were in the second day of Operation Tor Shezada, attempting to push Taliban insurgents out of a stronghold in southern Afghanistan. Military chiefs said they made progress, and two compounds near Sayedebad in central Helmand were being held. The operation started on Friday, spearheaded by 1st Battalion, The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment, with soldiers being dropped from Chinook helicopters under cover of darkness. They then moved in to clear compounds and establish patrol bases in the area. They were unopposed as they took their first objectives and then reinforced positions.

Major Simon Ridgway said British and Afghan troops had faced no more than limited small-arms fire in the initial stages. "By securing and dominating the area, we reduce the freedom of movement for the insurgent and then, together with the local people... we can establish security that stops the insurgent having the ability to influence and intimidate the local people."

The Ministry of Defence said the operation was "progressing well".

Such upbeat talk is not new, and is often followed, weeks or months later, by news that successes have been undone by Taliban resurgence, Afghan government corruption, or the day-to-day survival instincts of a war-weary population whose hearts and minds have never been lastingly captured. The US documents made public by WikiLeaks have only added to the sense that the Afghan war against an elusive enemy unaccountable to any democracy is the unsustainable in pursuit of the unbeatable.

New details of incidents referred to in the documents highlight the relentless "collateral damage" – revealing how innocent bystanders have been killed, including women and children, by coalition forces. Among the cases are more than 20 incidents where British troops fired on civilians, resulting in 46 people being killed or injured. The documents contain allegations that a detachment of British troops repeatedly shot civilians in the streets of Kabul in one month of 2007, and that commandos shot innocent civilians on eight occasions in Helmand province in 2008.

One incident, on 15 October 2008, saw a platoon commander from 45 Commando Royal Marines shoot a seven-year-old boy who died from his wounds five days later. The soldier had fired "an aimed warning" shot at what he claimed was a "young man 'dicking' [spying on] the patrol". Other cases include a US patrol machine-gunning a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers; and, in 2007, Polish troops directing mortar fire against a village, killing members of a wedding party – including a pregnant woman.

One report details an incident where a compound was bombed in an attempt to kill a "high-value individual", after "ensuring there were no innocent Afghans in the area". A US commander reported that 150 Taliban had been killed. But locals reported up to 300 civilians had died. Civilian casualties continue to mount as fighting intensifies. Just over a week ago, at least 45 civilians were killed by a Nato rocket attack on a town in Helmand.

The death of innocent civilians, whether by accident or design, goes some way towards explaining why the coalition is failing to win hearts and minds. A compelling example of the depth to which some Afghans are opposed to what they view as a foreign occupation is the incident where an American patrol was lured into a deadly ambush by villagers in Ganjigal, eastern Afghanistan, in September last year. Four US soldiers died. A report says soldiers stated: "They had eyewitness accounts of children in the village firing at the CF ground unit... and women assisting to resupply ammunition."

A number of the leaked documents refer to incidents where Afghan police or soldiers have turned on coalition forces, often to deadly effect. One report relates how five British soldiers were shot dead and six injured by a rogue Afghan policeman last November. Last month three British soldiers were killed and four injured by an Afghan soldier at a base in Nahr-e Saraj.

Coalition forces are faced with a ruthless enemy that is unfettered by "rules of engagement" and totally unaccountable for its actions. The WikiLeaks documents reveal not only a huge rise in the Taliban's use of improvised explosive devices since 2004 (up from around 300 to 7,155 last year), but an attempt to kill coalition forces by poisoning their drinking water with cyanide in October 2009.

Another document reveals how a three-year-old child was murdered by the Taliban and left in a rubbish bag on the steps of the Afghan Women's Council. A report in June 2007 stated: "The deceased child [of a student] was placed in a garbage bag in front of the Women's Council. This was to display dislike for the female student attending classes."

Fatal flaws: MoD ignored repeated warnings about vulnerable vehicles

Defence chiefs were warned of the fatal vulnerability of the lightly armoured "Snatch" Land Rovers used by British forces in Iraq three years before ministers were told the vehicles must be replaced, The Independent on Sunday can reveal.

It emerged last week that a British general told the Government in July 2006 that front-line commanders wanted better-protected vehicles so they could carry out missions "without unnecessary casualties".

But an internal Ministry of Defence report shows that only weeks into the conflict, in 2003, members of the Royal Military Police (RMP) complained about the "risk" they had faced travelling in Snatch and the need for vehicles that offered better protection.

As many as 19 UK personnel were killed in the vehicles, in Iraq and Afghanistan, during the intervening period.

The IoS established that, in the post-operational report submitted by 1 (UK) Armoured Division on its return from the Iraq conflict, the RMP stated the need for protected vehicles which "would allow them to operate further forward (they did deploy forward in soft-skinned vehicles at risk)".

It added that "the necessity... to be equipped with protected vehicles was demonstrated repeatedly throughout the operation" and that "at times [personnel]... driving Land Rovers were placed in range of enemy... fire".

Rose Gentle, whose soldier son Gordon was blown up in a Land Rover in Iraq in 2004, said: "If they had heeded the warnings, none of these lads would have had to get into one of those vehicles again."

Brian Brady

  • Tarik_Toulan
    The simple fact is that the Taliban and their allies are fighting for a cause, which is expulsion of the invaders from their homeland - very clear, legitimate and simple. But what are the US & NATO troops fighting for? You'll have to start guessing: to combat terrorism, to bring democracy, to appear victorious, to tilt at windmills..etc. - still no genuine purpose.
  • The United States war in Afghanistan persists because there is no good face saving way to end it politically. If Obama withdraws the troops he will be villified by the rightwing loonies, leading to a an election of more rabid conservatives, which will reinstitute all of the Bush/Cheney goals and policies. Since the war cannot be won and he give the US over to the ultra-conservative if he withdraws, the President continues the war. Someway must be found for the US to declare victory and leave. It was the only way out of Vietnam, it seems.
  • I'm amazed by the amount of people that keep misunderstanding your sarcasm and irony. :)
  • SID_VICIOUS
    The Taliban warriors will fight till the very end they know they cant ever be beaten history proves that the mighty super power of the USSR got taken apart by these men who wear sandals and simple dress yet they sure know how to fight and destroy the most sophisticated enemy who wants to invade there country with all the technology and latest weapons its embarrasing and shamefull for the british and american army and goverments that they are getting taken apart by the taliban and sending body bags for us to remember its no wonder we have lost the will to fight when our soldiers know they dont have a prayer!
  • tomfrom66
    True, I well recall all those leaders that told us what a wonderful war it was, doing god's work, just like Goldman Sachs.
  • WE AL SHOULD PAY WHAT THE ELITE POLITICIANS SAY EVEN IF THEY TOOK THEIR MONEY OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY TO BE INVESTED AS BLAIR DID IN DUBAI & LABIA!
  • thomasaikenhead
    Pete Loud,

    As been pointed out by Peter Oborne in the UK and Walt and Mearsheimer, the Jewish vote alone is not significant in itself as there are simply too few Jews (There are only about 265,000 in the UK, they make up less than one percent of the population) to influence the election result of any particular district/constituency.

    It is in the political, lobbying and funding area that 'The Israel Lobby' is most effective in both the UK and the US. As US visitors to the Comments section so often state, the coverage of Israel in the US press is very different from that in Europe or even Israel itself.

    The interesting thing is that such influence and lobbying work best in private, now that such matters are in the public domain, the influence of groups like the ADL (which imploded over the Armenian Massacres and Genocide issue), or AIPAC which suffered after its staff were bought to court as spies, is diminishing rapidly.

    They made a massive strategic error in attacking General Petraeus when he said that support for Israel was a factor in placing US troops in danger, and they were forced to retract their criticisms and apologise.

    The fact that Netanyahu was left in a side room at the White House with his aides while President Obama eat dinner with his family sent a very clear message about the change in US policy from the Bush era.

    Recent remarks by Cameron about the Gaza Strip being a prison were obviously cleared with the 'senior partner' during the recent Cameron\Obama talks, another sign of declining Israeli influence and the rise of Turkey.
  • thomasaikenhead
    Excellent post JoeKelsall, but when the British did it it was ok because it was called 'free trade'! Don't forget the role the Scots played in the heroin and opium trade to China. Most of the Hong Kong trading companies and foreign banks all waxed fat on the business. Those Scots who could not made it as Glasgow tobacco barons or slave traders went East and tried their hand. That was how HSBC got started.
  • I had the same problem with a comment on this article. I simply pointed out that the US presidential candidates were dependent upon the Jewish vote, which supported Israel, thereby allowing Israel to determine US foreign policy. My comment was removed. There was nothing offensive in it. Twleve people had expressed a liking for my comment.

    It seems that The Independent or DISQUS has an Israeli sympathiser censor. The Independent needs to explain what the rules are regarding the acceptability of comments.
  • steve_real
    Focus on Kandahar. It's the politikal core. We need better intelligence, faster, quicker, with a deeper depth of knowledge. 24 hour air surveillance of Kandahar. 365 days a year. We need NATO to commit with radio speaking Pastu, in Kandahar. 24 hours a day, since most of them are illiterate. All troops must learn a Pastu word a day. Perseverance for the next 12 to 18 months in Kandahar is all. Persevere and stay tough fellas. Good Luck.
  • You are ill-informed. In 2001, when The Taliban had significant power and control in Afghanistan, they banned the growth of poppies for the production of heroin. This cut supplies and forced up the street price throughout Europe. When The Taleban lost control due to the invasion by US & UK, poppy cultivation and heroin production returned to record levels.

    This information has been deliberately and conveniently 'forgotten' by the Western politicians, media and military.
  • "... we can establish security that stops the insurgent having the ability to influence and intimidate the local people." Same as ever. I wonder where the 'insurgent' hails from... Afghanistan, by any chance. All this talk of 'local people', so very League of Gentlemen.
  • Spicio
    Thanks.
  • ChrisClarkGold
    It is indeed a murky trade Pet, and lots of beneficiaries outside the Taliban and thank you for pointing it out. The point I'm making remains that the way to undermine the Taliban is to cut the drug demand and switch supply. In doing that I see that a lot of vested interests in some strange places will be very upset, but this is 100% a war about drug traffickers and the Independent article failed totally to mention these issues. I agree with you I'd like to see some Western media focus on this too.
  • true.
  • Hilarious. Another one buying into the whole "We are at war" thing. You forget to mention Churchill.
  • Israel does not like this!they are EU party! we need to give priority to moral & deed over money ,money will come LATER ON ! Fisk is right: Need I go on? Israel, by the way, has been praised for its "logistics" help to Nato in Afghanistan ? where we are annually killing even more Afghans than the Israelis usually kill Palestinians ? which is not surprising since Israel military boss Gabi Ashkenazi has visited Nato headquarters in Brussels to argue for closer ties with Nato. And Cronin convincingly argues an extraordinary ? almost obscenely beautiful ? financial arrangement in "Palestine". The EU funds millions of pounds' worth of projects in Gaza. These are regularly destroyed by Israel's American-made weaponry. So it goes like this. European taxpayers fork out for the projects. US taxpayers fork out for the weapons which Israel uses to destroy them. Then EU taxpayers fork out for the whole lot to be rebuilt. And then US taxpayers... Well, you've got the point. Israel, by the way, already has an "individual co-operation programme" with Nato, locking Israel into Nato's computer networks. L.D should stand on because they need to prove their promise to us!
  • The only victory is in the head of Israel who toughs the rest how to fight on their behalf! Israel now is part of the Nato! we did not know till the 4 IDF were killed.
  • thomasaikenhead
    Yes, well of course the US have great experience of going to other countries, engaging the locals in combat, getting beaten by amateurs armed with small arms and then leaving with their tails between their legs!

    Where else can we remember seeing US 'boots on the ground'?;
    - Iraq
    - Somalia
    - Lebanon
    - Vietnam
    - Korea
    - China

    none of which can be described as a US victory!

    Of course, Hollywood can re-tell the tale in a variety of ways but the simple fact is that the greatest military power in the world tries, on average, once a decade to engage in combat against a weak third-world nation and every time the US loses and goes home!
  • Don't forget the Canadians, and then the French, Germans and Italians will follow not long after I'm sure. Only the Brits and the poor countries will be left hanging on to Uncle Sams coattails, as "Call me Dave" and the begging bowl leaders do not have the balls to do anything different.
  • TO what end! And like the Romans in Gaul what will the repercussions be in 30 years?
  • sona50
    so why aren't you there fighting to defeat the talebs (sic)? i didn't like your comment - just a mistroke - less of a liguistic abuse than mispeak or refudiate - come to think of it, i refudiate that
  • Just another in a series of stupid, lost American-fought conflicts. Only this time we suckered Europe into butchering civvies with us.
  • chrisalien
    We should leave. The war on terror is a scam, and putting our fighting men and women in a no win situation is criminal. The US forced the Soviets into Afghanistan so they would be beaten, and thats where the AlQeda was made. Any man or woman in the armed forces should refuse to go there. There is fighting for your country and down right suicide. Our so called leaers should be on trial.
  • Want to know why we are staying in Afghanistan? Google "WHAT OUR CHILDREN ARE DYING FOR IN AFGHANISTAN"
  • Spicio
    Can the independent tell me why my comment of 1 day ago has been removed? After receiving 14 likes, does that not suggest that some Independent readers and myself are as one on how we view death and destruction in our time? Please return my comment.
  • I think it's the windmills of mass destruction option. :D
  • gondorplace
    It takes a skill to do it...
  • gondorplace
    Oh mine. So that was irony, then?
  • awakenedmind
    You poor deluded fool SUPPORT OUR TROOPS BRING THEM HOME NOW
  • gondorplace
    Heroic? Let me ask you a question. Why is it that NATO troops always show their heroism in devastated, barren lands of the east, yet do not dare to set their foot in the countries that they bomb in Eastern Europe? Heroism is the quality of the people defending their country at any cost, without personal gain. It is not a quality you assign to paid killers hiding behind advanced technology.
  • dravazed
    Malalai Joya, female member of the Afghan parliament and author (last year) of A Woman Among Warlords, wrote: "But Afghanistan has long been used as a deadly playground in the 'Great Game' between superpowers, from the British Empire to the Soviet empire, and now the Americans and their allies. They have tried to rule Afghanistan by dividing it. They have given money and power to thugs and fundamentalists and warlords who have driven our people into terrible misery. We do not want to be misused and misrepresented to the world. We need security and a helping hand from friends around the world, but not this endless U.S.-led 'war on terror,' which is in fact a war against the Afghan people. The Afghan people are not terrorists; we are the victims of terrorism. Today the soil of Afghanistan is full of land mines, bullets, and bombs--when what we really need is an invasion of hospitals, clinics, and schools for boys and girls." Get out now.
  • kawasakiman
    OK, given that the UK now has 'homegrown' terrorists, what would be your opinion of the US bombing the UK ? After all, we must now ALL be terrorists !
  • I wonder if the US high command knows the difference between insurgent and resurgent :D
  • Britain went into Afghanistan to suck-up to the yanks. There wasn't, and never has been, a valid reason to invade Afghanistan. Britain should pull its troops out and leave the yanks to perish in the mess of their own idiotic making.
  • USA is a cesspool of aggressive incompetence and incompetent aggression.
  • Israel does not like this!they are EU party!
    we need to give priority to moral & deed over money ,money will come LATER ON !
    Fisk is right:
    Need I go on? Israel, by the way, has been praised for its "logistics" help to Nato in Afghanistan ? where we are annually killing even more Afghans than the Israelis usually kill Palestinians ? which is not surprising since Israel military boss Gabi Ashkenazi has visited Nato headquarters in Brussels to argue for closer ties with Nato. And Cronin convincingly argues an extraordinary ? almost obscenely beautiful ? financial arrangement in "Palestine". The EU funds millions of pounds' worth of projects in Gaza. These are regularly destroyed by Israel's American-made weaponry. So it goes like this. European taxpayers fork out for the projects. US taxpayers fork out for the weapons which Israel uses to destroy them. Then EU taxpayers fork out for the whole lot to be rebuilt. And then US taxpayers... Well, you've got the point. Israel, by the way, already has an "individual co-operation programme" with Nato, locking Israel into Nato's computer networks.
    L.D should stand up because they need to prove their promise to us!
  • mike_espana
    Just why on earth are we here again ? Britain tried to rule Afghanisrtan a long time ago and failed. Russia with all its resources tried it and failed and now America & Britain are failing again in an unobtainable objective. You can NEVER EVER win a war unless the indigenous population is behind you but the politicians never seem to learn this. Its always, it will be different this time, the situation has changed, the objectives have changed but it never ever works. Afghanistan is ruled by a bunch of medieval Islamic war lords no better than bandits, drug suppliers and international terror merchants and that is it. They aren't worth fighting over, their population is not worth dying for and it would be best for the rest of the world to let them die in their enclave living a 15th century existence. Who really gives a s*** about a country that doesn't have human rights, modern values and stabs you in the back. Get out and get out now and let them rot in their self made existence !
  • Spicio
    The US has long become impotent. It has been dragged down by the only outside force that is determined to drag everyone down: Israel. If it is at all possible to leave emotion, positive and negative aside, it is that country that is pulling the only superpower away from sensible and fair foreign policy. No one should need to tip toe around Israel for fear of being labelled anti-semitic, Israel is and has been the cause of our conflict, hatred and violence that we have engaged in worldwide. If the US cannot or will not recognise the bad company it favours when it bankrolls this middle east (not EU, as has been suggested) country, more blood will spill, more terror and violence from all sides will continue. To save the world Israel cannot continue to be a priority over the poor and downtrodden, the humiliated and depressed. Without the psychological hold Israel has on too many Western countries, there would be no Gaza, no Lebanon, no conflict with Iran. Without Israel many thousands upon thousands would still be alive, Iraq would not be as it is today, broken and stamped upon. The Jewish lobbyists in Washington have been aiding and abetting for generations a criminal state, they have brought terror to the weak and vulnerable and in their madness still they claim a moral righteousness in their actions. And when the angels call for all of us will we have a defence for our actions of terror? Washington will surely burn and burn along with its devilish friend. Viva the world even if it means addio to this ugly ugly state that some, but not all, call Israel.
  • Any presidential candidate in US depends upon the Jewish vote to win the Presidency. As a result both parties dance to their tune. As almost all Americans Jews support Israel, America's foreign policy is determined by Israel.

    Ironically, USA might have been much better off if it had turned its back on the Israel terrorist state and befriended the oil-rich Moslem countries.

    My apologies if this might seem off-topic, I should have made it as a reply to Spicio.
  • JoeKelsall
    Because, Dravazed, it was fact. Only the Sassoon family and fellow Jews were employed in, 'our' free trade with China. Now, this was the time before Arthur Balfour brought in the 1905 Aliens Act, specifically to keep Jewish immigrants out of the UK. And, it was before the anti semite Balfour met the Rothschild family and was 'smitten' with Zionism enough to make the 'Rothschild Declaration 1917'. No - that was not a mistake!
  • colin1107
    Interesting headline ,although patronising to say the least-well to me anyway. War only creates order after the chaos,after mass human casualties whether they are Afghan , British ,American or whoever. When will people see through this facade of ''war on terror''.(it does not exist) Swine flu ,sars ,bird flu ,war on terror all nonsense. Ask yourselves the real reason for all this ,not is this war unwinable ,thats what they want you talking about ,only awakened minds will understand . To all others explore the reasoning for any war ,it is all about control ,nothing more.
  • The Dutch proved to be the cleverest.......and Got out !
  • collinbrown
    Shouldn't the title of this article read: "The unsustainable pursuit of the unbeatable!" Rather than: "The unsustainable in pursuit of the unbeatable!
  • dravazed
    Perhaps he is thinking of the mujahadin (variously spelled). Many of them were indeed from abroad. Also--inevitably--any number of those who fall under the vague rubric of 'Taliban' are Pakistani. Often, it's hard to tell who is who. Not quite as tidy over there as in the UK.
  • sona50
    oh i understand why pathans and the other 57% of afghans do not want western forces there but at least 57% of afghans do not want pakistan there either regardless of trolls hyperventilating their keyboards
  • sona50
    the demand is in the west - where the isaf troops are come from - we love this market god who/which decrees if there's a demand, there will be supply
  • sona50
    tea - a good idea

    when did anybody declare a war against whoever?
  • paul999999
    Yeah - irony not quite your thing then?
  • thomasgoodey
    What nonsense the headline is. We can sustain the present level of casualties, or indeed a much greater one, indefinitely, if we want to. And the Talebs are not unbeatable. Everybody is beatable by the application of sufficient force.
  • millsmess88
    "Coalition forces are faced with a ruthless enemy that is unfettered by "rules of engagement" and totally unaccountable for its actions." Excuse you! So the coalition boys and girls are just girl scouts and boy scouts earning merit badges in a faraway place. And of course, they always play by the ROE rules. And guess what, those are their rules, and you better comply or those friendly scouts will blow you away. They are merely the friendly, armed-to-the-teeth ambassadors of finance capitalism who along with their Predator Drone pals will soon likely be patrolling your neighborhood. That's just in case you might object to "austerity" measures necessary to ensure the seamless assimilation of all social infrastructure and wealth by the billionaire Buffett class.
  • somethingbrite
    There existed in washington a desire to act against the Taliban and AlQaeda in Afghanistan before 9/11. After the 9/11 event any plan that existed already would have met with little or no resistance anywhere and military action was supported internationally. Indeed, with the American public still reeling from the shock of attack on American soil to NOT flatten somewhere would probably have been political suicide. Even if the motive were to be simply stated as revenge much of the world would still have said. "O.K. Need any help?" However, I agree that perhaps a more effective method would perhaps have been to pursue extradition of Al Qaeda using the threat of military action against Afghanistan, the use of Special Forces, drones etc in the support of a "Police Action" to secure Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda and a MUCH faster start to any operation like this. I recall thinking at the time that the public statements from the Whitehouse were giving anybody sitting in Afghanistan plenty of time to pack up and leave....if you are going to catch a criminal you don't tell him where you are going to start looking and when. Also, without getting into conspiracy theories, if the object of the operation was to eliminate Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and capture or kill Bin Laden, then 9 years later that mission has been as much a success as the search for WMD in Iraq.
  • JoeKelsall
    When the Uk and USA troops return, it will be with their tails between their legs. Just as the Russians and the British have done on previous occasions. The warlords will regain control and the women will still have difficulty getting an education. We had no altruistic reasons for invading Afghanistan. Since when have the Brits ever gone to war for anything but pecuniary interests? Indeed, we spent centuries preventing the education of our black African 'cargo' to the USA and West Indies. Teaching a black slave to read was a criminal offence. Within living memory, we tried to prevent the Irish using their own language. The sooner we conclude this further humiliating serial defeat in Afghanistan, the better.
  • porkfright
    You obviously don't choose to remember either Vietnam-or the Soviet Union's 100,000+ troops in Afghanistan. Both examples which disprove your tentative (at best) theory.
  • "What is the point of such a miserable and defeatist article"

    It would only be defeatist if we were behind the war in the first place.
    Not to mention there is nothing to win anyway.
    Unless you consider the Northern Alliance worth fighting for, the very people that are selling the heroin. They control the northern border that it get's exported through, think about it.
    There were no drugs when the war started as Pete pointed out, so how could we be fighting to stop something that did not exist. Have a cup of tea and like I said, think about it.
  • CuthbertB
    amen Your English, or lack of it, gave me a laugh. Mass mascara? It's spelt massacre. I think mass mascara might be something nuns slap on their faces.
  • "attempting to push Taliban insurgents out" Seen as the Taliban and their families live there, where are they supposed to be pushed back to exactly? I don't understand this kind of logic, it's not like pushing the Nazis back through France and Poland. The Taliban have not invaded so they can't be pushed back in theory.
  • Rcartes
    "this is 100% a war about drug traffickers"? Sorry, that's simply and completely wrong. The war is [supposed to be, anyway] about defeating terrorism, and the fact that it actually promotes terrorism doesn't alter that, it's just that the politicians can't see the obvious when it's in front of their stupid faces: the Taliban are driven by the desire to rid their country of alien invaders, just as we would be if we were being invaded by armies from Afghanistan, Libya and Egypt, for example. You may not like the Taliban (I certainly don't), but at least try to gain an understanding of their motivation.
  • I actually agree with Thomasaikenhead that its not the number of Jews living in US or UK but their influence ( read money ).
  • thomasaikenhead
    Don't forget the aid given to Jewish groups within the US as part of the Department of Homeland Security pork barrel. The Nonprofit Security Grant Program gave 253 out of 270 grants to Jewish organisations.
  • history is twisted since Cromwell 1645 who gave jews the power of us the money in Britain,King Charles I was killed because he dare ask about this . few only knows this. Deeds & not worlds of Cameron counts about Gaza,he says something do opposite. we have to be careful! Beast is not be trusted!
  • Its a war about drugs now ? Just like Iraq was a war about WMDs but later becaome the war about democracy. Funny changes - don't you think ?
  • To be fair the ISI have done a commendable job too. :)
  • Well if the casualties in Afghnaistan were the same as the world wars then they would be all dead. So length is a more reasonable comparison when you think about it.
  • dravazed
    See paul999's post below.
  • dravazed
    Are you by any chance referring to the headline over at Antiwar.com that points out the deaths in July in Iraq are the highest in the past two years? And are you truly oblivious to the shattered state of Iraq, thanks to the thorough job the invaders did?
  • dravazed
    I cannot do better than to once again quote the courageous woman who is constantly under bodyguard, as she goes about her business. Here is Malalai Joya again: "As I never tire of telling my audiences, no nation can donate liberation to another nation. These values must be fought for and won by the people themselves. They can only grow and flourish when they are planted by the people in their own soil and watered by their own blood and tears."

    Both the warlords who rule now--funded and armed by the US and its foolish allies--and the Taliban are the two millstones between which the Afghan people are being ground into dust. This war was never to help them--never. It is just part of the Great Game. Get out now!
  • dravazed
    What has 'Jewish' got to do with anything?
  • The United States and Britain have done a tremendous job of training the Taliban since 2001. Thanks to them the Taliban are now a disciplined and lethal force. Um, that was the whole idea, wasn't it?
  • G.Orwell said: The criminal will be respected when the people lose their dignity! Wikileak told a lot! democracy ,justice & moral goes when the money is in need! spreading hate is illegal but occupation & ethnic cleaning is paean nowadays. threatening TO KILL is illegal bust mass mascara is negotiable!
  • On Spot !!
  • bigbread
    A first class post: I agree with every word of it.
  • tomfrom66
    Very good post: the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is at the bottom of all the problems in the ME, and has been since the 1940s. Whilst US bodies like AIPAC have an effective block on who gets to be President there will be no change, and while right-wing US fruit cakes believe in Rapture - based, would you believe on the Book of Revelation? - the US will continue to give more aid to Israel than any other country on the planet.
  • JoeKelsall
    And, from whom did the Taliban learn the 'power of the poppy? Why, from our former monarch Queen Victoria and the whole of the Sassoon family who had the whole of China addicted to opium. The British were the world's biggest dealers in heroin and opium in partnership with the Jewish Sassoon family who had a monopoly on the trade in China. Her majesty, herself, used opium for medicinal purposes along with marijuana. God knows why she always looked so miserable?
  • shoestring7
    Interesting comparison about the length of the war compared to WW1 and WW2. Here's another; the average casualty rate in WW1 was around 1,000 times more than the 'most lethal week in Afghanistan.
  • ". . . the Jewish vote alone is not significant in itself as there are simply too few Jews (There are only about 265,000 in the UK, they make up less than one percent of the population) "

    I was very clearly referring to the Jewish/Israeli influence in USA.
  • ChrisClarkGold
    What is the point of such a miserable and defeatist article? Frankly it could have been commissioned by the Taliban.

    Nothing is explained about why the Taliban are so committed, which is all about cash from heroin trafficking. Recognise the Taliban for what they are. Heroin traffickers driven by cash, lots of it.

    No investigation into the background is made (the current fighting is taking place in poppy fields.) No solutions are offered up in this article, one of which is to decriminalise heroin based drugs and manufacture elsewhere, thereby cutting the huge funds that compel them to endlessly fight on.

    There are many other shades of arguments of course, but mainly the Taliban are operating no different to the Mexican cartels who bring the cocaine through to the USA from Columbia. The cash from the drugs inspires the extreme violence. The way to stop it is to reduce the demand, create legitimate sources fo production outside of Helmand starving them of cash, and decriminalise the stuff to reduce the demand. This will work to deny cash to drug traffickers as it has in Portugal.
  • I am India's expert in strategic defence and the father of India's strategic program, including the Integrated Guided Missiles Development Program. I have shown in my blog titled 'Nuclear Supremacy For India Over U.S.', which can be found by a Google search with the title, that all terrorism and insurgencies in the Indian subcontinent and in much of the rest of the world is sponsored by the C.I.A. Both Pakistan's ISI and India's RAW (Research and Analysis Wing) function as branches of the C.I.A. and participate in terrorism and insurgencies throughout the Subcontinent, under direction of the C.I.A. Yes, the ISI secretly supports the Taliban but it does so under direction from the C.I.A. whose modus operandi is support for ALL sides of a conflict to control the course of the conflict in service of its own goals. The goal of the U.S. invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and partial occupation of Pakistan is eventual occupation and overt colonial rule over the Subcontinent as a whole. This will not be permitted and all those participating in this enterprise, including the U.K., will be duly punished; see my blog. The document leak currently in the news has been made in preparation for abandonment of this goal and withdrawal from Afghanistan because of steps I have already taken for the nuclear destruction of New Delhi and then the coast-to-coast destruction of the United States by India with 5,000 thermonuclear warheads and extermination of its population; see my blog.
  • timspooner
    From what I saw on the BBC report of this latest operation, the troops entered an empty town. The whole place looks deserted. Even this article says they were unopposed. So just where are they attacking the Taliban? Just getting a helicopter lift into town and setting up positions with no enemy in sight or even in the area is not much of an effort and hardly worth reporting. They will withdraw very soon anyway. It looks like doing something for the media to report on rather than anything worthwhile. Perhaps Wkikleaks will tell us in due course
  • wonkywizzard
    UK limbers up to kill more civilians
  • gondorplace
    Finally, an article about the war worthy of Independent. Too late for those who died on both sides, unfortunately.
  • tomfrom66
    I would like to believe that this is ironical, but I have my doubts!
  • thomasaikenhead
    gram64, That is simply not true! A large proportion of their fighters do not come from other countries. The Taliban are Pushtun\Pathan tribesmen who have spent centuries fighting foreign invaders whether the British, the Russians or the Americans. The Taliban will not be 'pushed out' they will remain in place and within the next two years the British and Americans will withdraw, their invasion an abject defeat. The Taliban will have achieved yet another public victory over foreign invaders and the corrupt puppet that they installed in Kabul!
  • tomfrom66
    Is it indigenous, or ingenious? The indigenous (celtic) pop. of Roman Britain were pushed to the margins - Wales, Cornwall and Cumberland (land of the Welsh, btw) - by the Anglo-Saxon invaders, not the Romans.

    The relevance of this to Afghanistan escapes me.

    I don't doubt there are 'foreign' fighters on the side of the Taliban, there were 'foreign' fighters with the RAF in 1940.

    Are you suggesting that the Afghans want those from Pakistan, Arabia and Chechnya to go home?

    The suggestion I get is that they want the 'infidel' to go home.

    This part of the world hasn't forgotten the Crusades, in fact some think they are still happening. They have a point.

    Let me put it another way: the forces of an advanced civilisation sail up the English Channel in 1484, land around Brighton, and tell the astonished natives they have come to rescue them from 'wicked' King Richard III.

    Do you think they would have been made welcome?
  • In all of the recent discussion of economic cuts no politicians have mentioned the cost of the Afghan & Iraq wars.

    How much has this war in Afghanistan, (and Iraq), cost the British taxpayer? How much more will it cost us up to 2015?
    Support our troops, and the British Taxpayer, bring the troops home now
  • aliens_stole_my_hamster
    My God I think he does still believe that nonsense.
  • aliens_stole_my_hamster
    My God I think he does still believe that nonsense.
  • Tom
    Why are you comparing the casualty rates of WW1 and the current Afghanistan operation? What do you hope to achieve by this?
  • shoestring7
    Unfortunately, should NATO 'get out now', the last thing the Afghans will get is an invasion of hospitals, clinic, and schools for boys and girls. When the Russians left, they got civil war, a lot more land mines, bullets and bombs. After that a Taliban led government introduced a regime that murdered teachers, homosexuals, musicians and destroyed any heritage that didn't align to a fanatical interpretation of Muslim. Its difficult to see how it would be different this time around, the west has made this mess they have a responsibility to try and sort it out. Or are you saying the Afghans deserve to be left to rot?
  • we are the one who pay the money from our tax ;we should take the desiscon now before we lose our right to deciced! even if we need to do like Palestinian Intifada!
  • "Indigenuous Britons were 'pushed out' by the Romans." I think you will find the Britons pushed the romans out in the end. "Don't pretend that you are unaware of the fact that a large proportion of the Taliban are foreign fighters from Pakistan, Arabia, Chechnya, and many other places." Not all and not even most according to yourself even. Are you trying to make my point for me?
  • thanks for all who support me at the band claim
  • gram64
    Have you ever heard of a punctuation mark called the 'comma'?

    Aside from that, it was not so long ago that everyone was predicting defeat, shame, embarrassment, etc. etc, for American in Iraq. Turns out they ground out a result there, and in geopolitical terms a very useful result it is too.

    Don't be too surprised if the Coalition grinds out a result in Afghanistan. In any case, the Taliban cannot 'win' overall: no matter what happens, it will never be allowed to take over government in Kabul again, whether or not it ever attains some representation there.

    In terms of the kind of overall casualties suffered by U.S. and U.K. forces in the World Wars, the Korean War, the Vietnam War (U.S. only), the Malaya Campaign (U.K. only), etc., those in Afghanistan are minor. However, public opinion is easily swayed by our shroud-waving modern media.
  • gram64
    Don't pretend that you are unaware of the fact that a large proportion of the Taliban are foreign fighters from Pakistan, Arabia, Chechnya, and many other places. Those that are home-grown can still be 'pushed out' of their own territories. Nothing new in that. Indigenuous Britons were 'pushed out' by the Romans.
  • Dutch troops begin leaving Afghanistan today. Very soon Britain will be the only free-of-charge mercenary cocksuckers America has left.
  • awakenedmind
    Suerly you don't still believe that nonsense do you.
  • royshaw
    It was a mistake to go into Iraq, it was a mistake to go into Afghanistan. We should leave with as little loss of dignity as possible. A.S.A.P.
  • The purpose of Afghan invasion was elimination of Al Qaeda and top leadership of Taliban - the rest of objectives are negotiable. This war should have been fought with drones, special forces and MOABs. Security of Kabul etc can be fully outsourced to contractors and mercenaries.
  • saintdroog
    The Ministry of Defence said the operation was "progressing well". Great news! It won't be too long now before our brave boys come home to ticker-tape victory receptions with massive cheering crowds and pipe bands. They shall all have been decorated with so many medals that even Prince Charles will feel jealous. We will never forget their fallen comrades whose heroic deaths in creating a truly harmonious and democratic Afghanistan will never be forgotten. Anyone calling them suckers deserves to be spat upon and called rude names.

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