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After 54 years together, they decided to die together...

One of Britain's greatest conductors and his wife ended their lives in a Swiss clinic, watched by their weeping family

By Jonathan Brown

Troubled by failing eyesight and hearing, Sir Edward Downes had become dependant on his wife, Joan – herself diagnosed with terminal cancer

PA

Troubled by failing eyesight and hearing, Sir Edward Downes had become dependant on his wife, Joan ? herself diagnosed with terminal cancer

It was, said their family, a very civilised way to die. Sir Edward and Lady Downes, a shared lifetime of personal and professional triumphs behind them, held hands for their final moments together before climbing on to separate beds to drink the clear liquid containing a fatal dose of barbiturates. Within 10 minutes, watched by their weeping family, they were dead.

The decision of one of Britain's greatest conductors and his wife to end their own lives in a manner, time and place of their choosing has reignited the debate over assisted suicide in Britain. Yesterday, as their children were interviewed by Metropolitan Police officers over their role in facilitating their parents' death, the extraordinary finale to the life of Edward, 85, and Joan Downes, 74, began to emerge.

News of their suicide last Friday was released in a statement by their son Caractacus and daughter Boudicca. It said: "After 54 happy years together, they [our parents] decided to end their own lives rather than continue to struggle with serious health problems. They died peacefully, and under circumstances of their own choosing, with the help of the Swiss organisation Dignitas in Zurich."

The reluctant choice of Britain's finest post-war conductor – who worked his way up from humble beginnings to lead the world's greatest orchestras, a roll-call of achievements which included taking the baton for the first performance at the newly built Sydney Opera House – was made after his wife of 44 years was diagnosed with terminal secondary cancer in the liver and pancreas earlier this year.

In recent times she had become not only his constant companion, accompanying him to dress rehearsals at the beloved Royal Opera – where they met more than half a century ago when she was an aspiring young ballet dancer and he an emerging conductor – but also his full-time carer.

Sir Edward, although not terminally ill, had had to cope with deteriorating eyesight for many years. By the end of his professional life, when he was well in to his eighties, he was forced to conduct only those pieces contained within his prodigious memory. A recent decline in his general condition, following a hip replacement, and for a musician the desperate blow of losing his hearing, had made the prospect of life without Lady Joan untenable. According to her British doctors, the couple had, at best, a few months left together, though Lady Joan might have only lived for a few more pain-racked weeks. Medication worked intermittently and a delay could have meant she would have been too ill to travel, the family said.

Research on the internet led them to contact the controversial Dignitas clinic, where more than 117 Britons have gone to take advantage of Switzerland's liberal laws on assisted suicide. "It was very calm and very civilised," explained Caractacus. "It is a very good way to go and you are under control. When faced with a situation like that, having control over your end is a very important thing, and my parents were very keen on that."

He added: "So while it was shocking when I found out, it seemed a completely reasonable thing to do and we had no trouble supporting what they did. I don't understand why the legal position in this country doesn't allow it."

Son and daughter had persuaded their parents to allow Caractacus to accompany them from their home in Greenwich, south-east London, to Zurich last Tuesday. Boudicca, 39, a UN worker based in Rome, met them there. Only a small group of close friends, one of whom is a solicitor, was privy to the decision. "In the end, they were relieved we were there," said Mr Downes, 41, an IT worker and part-time musician.

Sir Edward had remained active very late in life, still studying for a Russian degree to keep his brain "ticking over", but the ravages of old age were becoming intolerable. "It was frustration upon frustration for him," explained his son.

In order to be allowed to proceed, Sir Edward and Lady Joan had to provide evidence of their conditions and persuade doctors that they were fully aware of and committed to taking their own lives. "They both lived life to the full and considered themselves extremely lucky to have lived such rewarding lives both professionally and personally. Our parents had no religious beliefs and there will be no funeral," the couple's children said.

Those in the world of music in which the Downes – known to all as Ted and Joanie – had been leading figures for some six decades, expressed extreme shock at the sudden announcement of their deaths. Few appeared to know that Lady Joan, who gave up professional dancing to become a choreographer and later a TV producer before spending the final years of her life as Sir Edward's personal assistant, had been ill. Fewer still were aware that Sir Edward was losing his hearing.

His agent Jonathan Groves described their suicides as a "typically brave and courageous decision". He added: "None of us were aware this was going to happen until after they had died. It was very typical of the way [Sir Edward] lived his life. I do not think there is anyone anywhere who has lived his life with more self-determination than Ted did."

Antonio Pappano, music director of the Royal Opera, where Sir Edward spent much of his career first as a horn player, then as a répétiteur and prompter before becoming a conductor, paid tribute to his "overwhelming knowledge". He said: "Ted and Joanie Downes were the loveliest of people and incredibly supportive of my music directorship."

Roger Wright, controller of BBC Radio 3 and director of BBC Proms, said Sir Edward would be remembered for creating "unforgettable" music events over 40 years. "He was a wonderful musician and will be warmly remembered by audiences and musicians alike," he said.

Suicide is no longer a crime in England and Wales, but aiding and abetting a person's self-inflicted death remains a criminal offence, punishable by up to 14 years in prison. Attempts to change the law have proved unsuccessful. Lord Falconer's Lords amendment to the Coroners and Justice Bill fell last Tuesday, the same day that Sir Edward and Lady Joan left for Zurich.

Sarah Wootton, chief executive of Dignity in Dying, which campaigns for a change in the law, said this latest high-profile case showed there was a need for urgent action. "This problem is clearly not going to go away; we are descending down a slippery slope towards unregulated assisted dying abroad, at a rapid pace," she said.

But for the Downes family, the law had nothing to do with it. "It would not make any difference," insisted Mr Downes. "Even if they arrest us and send us to prison, it would make no difference because it was what our parents wanted."

Dignitas: British deaths

* At 23, injured rugby player Daniel James, became the youngest Briton to be assisted in his suicide. He suffered a collapsed spine in a scrum which left him paralysed from the chest down. He travelled to the Dignitas clinic on 12 September 2008 and died in the presence of his parents.

* Former docker Reg Crew, 74, took his life in January 2003 in front of TV cameras. He had suffered from motor neurone disease for over four years. Before drinking water laced with barbiturates, he told broadcasters that he'd "enjoyed a good innings".

* In 2004 Gordon Hurst's family called for the clinic to be closed. Mr Hurst, 76, of Hitchin, Hertfordshire, had Parkinson's disease. Relatives only heard of his suicide plans through letters that reached them after his death. One finished: "Be happy for me because now I am free of all pain."

The maestro: The life and musical times of Sir Edward Downes

17 June, 1924: Born in Birmingham. He took up the piano and violin aged five.

1952: Joins the Royal Opera to become an assistant to the Czech conductor and composer Rafael Kubelik.

1955: Meets his future wife Joan, a dancer.

1970: Becomes Australian Opera's music director, conducting the first performance at the Sydney Opera House, Prokofiev's War and Peace.

1980: Principal conductor of the BBC Philharmonic.

1983: Chief conductor of the Netherlands Radio Orchestra.

1991: Knighted; becomes associate music director at the Royal Opera.

2005: Final appearance at Royal Opera.

2009: Commits suicide at Dignitas clinic.

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Comments

Dignatis- A sign of the times
[info]rev_dr_alex wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 07:24 am (UTC)
Life is precious and we need to see that the sanctity of this gift is upheld in a God fearing society. Now there lies the catch, that if we remove God out of our thinking and life we can then do what ever we feel, we cast off restraint and do what is right in our own eyes. Its not that suicide in itself is wrong, the greater sin is dying without Jesus, that means that when you stand before Him he will say I never knew you and then it is too late. That is the sting, and dignatis is aiding people to that sting. DIGNATIS= STING AID... the good news is that through Jesus Christ Death has Lost its Sting. So what is the alternative -- choose life not death, receive His life by repenting and asking Him into your heart, thank Him for healing you, making you whole, then you can go to sleep in peace, there will be those who will be immediately healed and those who are not. I personally have seen God heal hopeless cases, even the dead raised, there is more to Jesus than religion, try Him with all your heart.
Re: Dignatis- A sign of the times
[info]wakey67 wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 10:17 am (UTC)
Why is this a religious issue ? Nobody mentions Jesus/God in this article, why does religion feel it has to comment on this as if it has some devine right to pass judgement. This was a personal choice by 2 intelligent people who decided that they wished to end their own lives. They didn't hurt anyone, in fact the discussed it with their families who accepted their decision and were happy to be part of it. I think choosing to die with dignity is the key point here. Modern medicine has the ability to keep people alive much longer than would have been the case only a few years ago, I can only see this situation becoming worse with medical advances. Rev-dr-alex seems to imply that anyone who chooses this path is not known by Jesus/God, why is this ? We have no idea what religous beliefs this couple had, in fact it is irrevalent as to what they did or did not believe it. Anyone who holds religious beliefs has no more right to pass judgement than someone who supports a Football/Rugby team, yet when discussions like this come up we have some religious spokesperson speaking on behalf of Jesus/God. Keep your beliefs to yourself, you have no right to show us the way, tell us the difference between right and wrong etc. I for one wholly respect ths couple and their family and can think of nothing better than to empower oneself in providing yourself with a dignified end to a wonderful life.
Re: Dignatis- A sign of the times
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 08:30 pm (UTC)
Well said. Religion is not the issue. The issue is the right of all rational beings to make an intelligent choice as to the continuation or ending of life. It is essential that everyone of rational age have a living will so they can elect their right to die with dignity at the time and place of their chosing. I have no interest in living when further enfeebled or in pain. Thank you for articulating so well what so many people accept.
Re: Dignatis- A sign of the times
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 08:28 pm (UTC)
I do not know what cult you belong to, but in all religions the plethora of savior gods and goddesses have committed suicide or died of choice. No mortal has ever seen a person dead and buried returned to life; at best they saw a return of the heart beat which can be artificially stimulated as was mine, for I was declared dead for five minutes--and there was no bright light, no heavenly host to attend me, no songs sung. It was black and final, and resuming my life did not change but made me more curious to know about people and allow all people the right to chose for themselves. What my death did do for me was return me (born again) to the way I was when first born--without a god. God is a mortal fiction created by those unwilling to study or work to live off of others.
Sir Edward and Lady Downes
[info]baxterjohn wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 10:01 am (UTC)
In response to the previous comment it might have been appropriate to say -' God bless them'.
Superstition
[info]justoffpeak wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 10:46 am (UTC)


I note that the unelected, cult, deluded religious types in the House of 'Lords' helped kill Falconer's Bill.

Leave us alone to make individual decisions.
[info]gpopemusic wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 11:45 am (UTC)
"Commits suicide" is a stigmatizing way to term an elderly man's choice to forgo the immense physical and psychological suffering he was undergoing; suicide is understood to be an act of desperation, premeditated or not. Sir Downes was of sound-- albeit suffering-- mind and unsound body, felt he had accomplished what he set out to in this world, and bowed out in the most gracious, graceful and timely of ways.

--a composer and fellow conductor
They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 04:14 pm (UTC)
Once again, a representative of the supernaturalist community subjects us to the same old pious, sanctimonious, theological witterings - as if they had anything rational and sensible to contribute to the debate (which they don't), and had the right and the duty to lecture the rest of us about what we can and cannot do with our own bodies (which they don't).

"Life is precious and we need to see that the sanctity of this gift is upheld in a God fearing society."

I think we are all agreed that life is precious. But the remainder of that sentence - the 'sanctity' and 'gift' and 'God' bits - only has 'meaning' to those who subscribe to your belief in an Invisible Magic Friend (i.e. a god). To those of us who do not, it is utterly devoid of meaningful content, and is merely vacuous liturgical waffle.

"Now there lies the catch, that if we remove God out of our thinking and life we can then do what ever we feel, we cast off restraint and do what is right in our own eyes."

Ah, that old chestnut again - that a life without belief in God must *necessarily* be a life without moral constraint. Pompous, patronizing, delusional rot! There is nothing intrinsically wicked about a 'godless' life; there *is*, however, something intrinsically wicked in the hearts and minds of those people who claim that there is, just so that they can have something to feel morally superior to the rest of humanity about. Have you never stopped to consider how *deeply insulting* non-believers find such an arrogant, arbitrary and sweeping condemnation of their morality, rev_dr_alex? Where is your sense of 'Christian' charity (hahaha - an empty concept), or, indeed, your sense of shame?

"Its not that suicide in itself is wrong, the greater sin is dying without Jesus,"

Once again, you are using liturgical waffle - i.e. 'sin', 'dying without Jesus' - as if non-believers invested these things with the same significance that you do, or cared about them as much. Both are false assumptions, arising out of the apparent complete inability of god-believers like yourself to imagine what it is like to *not* believe in your god. 'Sin' is an abstract concept, about causing offence to a supernatural being that, as far as non-believers are concerned, is just a figment of the - deranged - imagination of believers. Why should we care about offending a non-existent entity? And 'Jesus'? Oh yes, the supposed 'son' of this non-existent entity, who also, in all likelihood, never existed (at least, not as the actual son of an actual deity). Ditto previous remark.

"that means that when you stand before Him he will say I never knew you and then it is too late."

More vacuous liturgical waffle.

"... the good news is that through Jesus Christ Death has Lost its Sting."

Death has no sting, because with it comes the end of all awareness and sensation. Only *dying* can have a sting, and for those suffering from the pain, indignity and debility of a terminal illness, it can be a terrible one to bear.

(cont)
They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 04:15 pm (UTC)
(cont)

"So what is the alternative -- choose life not death,"

Even if this means choosing pain, indignity and debility? To subject oneself to needless suffering, when the alternative is the release of a peaceful and painless death, is not a sign of spiritual virtue and piety, but of masochism and stupidity.

"...thank Him for healing you, making you whole, then you can go to sleep in peace, there will be those who will be immediately healed and those who are not. "

If your god is all-loving and all-powerful, why must people die before he 'heals' them? And if he can heal them while they are alive, why doesn't he? And no, sorry to disabuse you of your delusion - there is *absolutely no convincing medical evidence whatsoever* that anyone has ever been healed by your god. If you doctorate is in medicine, then you should know that. Of course, it's probably in theology, isn't it - the most worthless and pointless academic qualification imaginable; a PhD in flower-arranging would have more value to the human race.

"I personally have seen God heal hopeless cases..."

Then where was your loving, healing god when Sir Edward was losing his eyesight? Or did he want him to go blind?

And where was your loving, healing god when Sir Edward was losing his hearing? Or did he want him to go deaf?

And where was your loving, healing god when Lady Downes developed terminal cancer? Or did he want her to suffer in terrible pain?

If I may borrow from Epicurus (his original had 'evil' in place of 'suffering', but the logic is still irrefutable):

Is God willing to prevent suffering, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh suffering?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Why indeed, rev_dr_alex? Why do you worship such a worthless entity, when he is either callous or incompetent, or both? Perhaps it is because he reflects your own callous insensitivity to the suffering of others, which you have amply demonstrated by posting your sanctimonious witterings to this thread, showing pious disdain for the bravery of Sir Edward and Lady Downse in choosing to end their lives with dignity.

Shame on you, your silly religion and your infernal Church!

Save you vacuous blatherings for your church magazine in future.
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]rex123 wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 05:09 pm (UTC)
Why it is indignity to be ill and old? What a strange understanding of dignity people have. Dignity is to be compassionate, loving, kind, brave etc... Hitler also thought that to be disabled is indignity and he effectively anihilated those who were diagnosed mentally and physically retarded...religious people MUST comment here because acording to Christian view those who commit suicide are loosing Life Eternal which is much more important then temporary physical life...Unbearable pain may result in dementia and psychic disorder and person commit suicide in such condition - the God is mercifull to those who were in such mental disorder - another story about those who were not expiriencing such a situation - Sir Edward was in normal shape (normal for 85 y.o.) so naturally any religious person is obliged to warn others not to do the same for their own benefit...
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 06:27 pm (UTC)
I did not say that there is indignity in being old, per se. But there can certainly be indignity in being physically or mentally incapacitated by illness. Though I suspect you are using a specifically religious meaning of the term 'dignity', full of vague theological overtones, which may be very different from the common meaning undestood by non-believers.

Of course it is possible to suffer an illness with 'dignity', meaning to suffer it with courage, patience and a determination to conceal one's suffering from loved one's in order to avoid distressing them. But sometimes the nature of the illness, and the suffering that it inflicts, mean that this is simply not possible - as many people who have watched a friend or relative dying of a painful, debilitating illness will tell you; conditions such as dementia or cancer have a terrible capacity to rob people of their dignity, reducing them to the helplessness of newborn babies who are utterly dependent on others for their feeding, washing, mobility and toilet needs.

And to accidentally confuse, or deliberately conflate, *voluntary* euthanasia - as pertains in this case - with the Nazi's *involuntary" euthanasia - i.e. cold-blooded murder - of the mentally and physically infirm is either incredibly crass and fatuous, or, if knowing and deliberate, a quite shameful and deceitful attempt to smeer a compassionate and humane medical procedure with the stigma of Nazie eugenics. Either way, you really should know better (though I would be completely unsurprised if you do not, sadly).

And it really is quite pointless introducing yet more vacuous liturgical waffle - 'Life Eternal', 'God is merciful' (merciful? - see above remarks on your 'merciful' god) - because none of it is supported by factual evidence or logic, and the only people who understand you (or think they do) and share your metaphysical concerns are people who also share your religious beliefs, and I'm afraid that means they are equally deluded and irrational in their thinking, and so have nothing to contribute to this debate that will be of any value or relevance to non-believers.

As I said to rev_dr_alex, you should save such theological witterings for your church magazine; this is neither the place nor the audience for them.
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]rex123 wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 08:07 pm (UTC)
The same way I may be able to say that you should save your atheistic propaganda for your communist magazine pointing that this is neither the place nor the audience for them - BECAUSE THE NAME OF THIS PAPER IS "INDEPENDENT" - have you ever asked yourselve - independant from whom? - From everything is my answer - so here is exactly the place for individual opinions of people from all walks of life and ideologies.....Back to the topic - to be ashamed of peeing in your pants due to ilness is the most boyish infantile attitude - ask any medical doctor in what situation a person may find himselve just in a matter of an instance being a minute ago a healthy athlet and then after a traffic accident - everything you described - so what? It is real shame to commit a murder, to rob a child, to lie those who trust you, to be greedy and not be helping those in need etc... but there is no shame and indignity in ilness - all the sufferings of the Earth are exactly for you to understand it and to make your heart kind and understanding to those conditions which you described as indignity...It is rediculous also to read your "theological" ignorance - as if you never read the Bible and don't know what Christianity says about WHY we, extradicted from the Paradise because of Adam and Eva sin (whatever literally or abstractly you may understand it), so WHY we expirience all those sufferings which are not a trap masterminded for us by the God, but natural way of wild nature lives and suffers and dies in contrast to what the mankind in the persons of Adam and Eva rejected in the Paradise..Those images are ABC - any child have always known it - looks like not anymore...Where are you from? Are you Brit?...I am Russian by the way, thank you for reading...
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 01:08 pm (UTC)
"The same way I may be able to say that you should save your atheistic propaganda for your communist magazine"

So atheism equals communism for you, does it? What a strange, simple-minded, black-and-white world you live in.

For you information, I am not a communist, a socialist, a conservative, a fascist, a Green, a liberal democrat or any other political denomination. I do not ally myself with any political ideology because I can think for myself and make up my own mind about things - apparently, as a god-botherer, you cannot.

"pointing that this is neither the place nor the audience for them - BECAUSE THE NAME OF THIS PAPER IS "INDEPENDENT" - have you ever asked yourselve - independant from whom?"

Idiot. I meant that *this thread*, on *this topic*, is not the right place or audience for you or your god-bothering friends to seize yet another opportunity to parade your fatuous, delusional piety in front of us and lecture to us about the supposed moral implications of assisted suicide (as if you knew anything about morality to begin with, other than what a 3,000 year old book of myths tells you). Hijacking this thread, given that it concerns a story of deeply personal tragedy for all those involved, just so that you can - once again - bang your drum for you precious superstitious beliefs, is quite staggeringly insensitive and crass. Why don't you just come right and say that you think Sir Edward and Lady Downes have committed an unforgivable 'sin' by taking their own lives (or maybe just by being atheist in the first place), and they are therefore going to burn in Hell for all eternity? Because that what your smug, sanctimonious preaching always boils down to, isn't it? If you believe in God and choose to endure the suffering of a painful, debilitating terminal illness, you're a good and virtuous person, and will go to Heaven; but if you don't believe in God, and choose to end your suffering by taking your own life, then you're a wicked and immoral person, and will go to Hell. That's your message, isn't it?

People like you make me sick; you are constantly demanding that everyone should respect your religious beliefs, but you never reciprocate by respecting the beliefs of the non-religious, do you? Well, I'm sorry , but neither you nor your silly, stupid, ignorant, superstitious twaddle are worthy of any respect at all.

"...It is rediculous also to read your "theological" ignorance - as if you never read the Bible and don't know what Christianity says about WHY we, extradicted from the Paradise because of Adam and Eva sin (whatever literally or abstractly you may understand it), so WHY we expirience all those sufferings which are not a trap masterminded for us by the God, but natural way of wild nature lives and suffers and dies in contrast to what the mankind in the persons of Adam and Eva rejected in the Paradise..Those images are ABC - any child have always known it - looks like not anymore..."

More vacuous litrugical gibberish. Get this through your thick head, god-botherer - *we don't care* what your precious Bible says about 'why' we suffer in this life; its absurdly convoluted and illogical 'explanations' involving *mythical people* - Adam and Eve - and a *mythical supernatural being* - God - are just *childish fairy tales* from mankind's primitive and ignorant past; they explain *nothing*, they mean *nothing*, and they have no relevance whatsoever to the topic of this thread or to anything else that should concern intelligent, rational, educated people living in the 21st century - a section of humanity from which all god-botherers have wilfully excluded themselves.

You need to *grow up*, intellectually and emotionally, throw away your Bible, abandon your silly superstition and start living in the *real world*!
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 08:37 pm (UTC)
Wrong. Early christians held that electing their own death was an heroic act that later churchmen considered to be martyrdom--but not all martyrs were put to death by governments. Try reading the numerous Acts of Martyrs, for many chose suicide over rape, old age, infirmity, etc. Religious people have an obligation to follow their particular scriptures, and in the case of christianity it demands that the right hand does not know what the left is doing and to pray in secret. Public testimonials to faith were rejected in the early community and not initiated into the emerging church until after the emperor Constantine created the church at the council of Nicea. Before that date, the church was nothing more than random collections of believers who followed local bishops--many of whom were warriors.

There is nothing wrong with being old (I am) but to be chronically or terminally ill and continue living for the sake of some unproven theory that there is life after death and unless the suffer continues suffering is an absurdity. When a person loses control over his or her faculties and bodily functions, life is no longer worth having. I am a baptised, confirmed, and ordained person and fully support the individual's right to determine the destiny of his or her body and its functions and life itself.
Re: They never miss an opportunity to preach at us, do they?
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 01:19 pm (UTC)
Well said, Arthur.
Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 08:15 pm (UTC)
Life is a stage of evolution and no god or goddess controls the destiny of any mortal. Each mortal must have and maintain the right over his or her own life and his or her own body and its cell formations. I fully intend to end my own life when I decide--not when some cult or government permits it, for religion has and contrinues to cause more pain and suffering than any war and in most cases the wars have been sanctified in the name of a deity who is little better than a totem tribute to mortal arrogance. Religious rants, such as that by rev_dr_alex ignore facts that even Jesus committed suicide, for he could have fled from the fate of the cross but accepted it. That is martyrdom only in some eyes, but not the eyes of all. Those truly dead do not return to life--those in an arrested state may recover their faculties but only because they never died. This is a matter for science, and although having been ordained in the distant past, I trust science more than faith. This article is about freedom to live and die as the individual decides. It is not a religious matter.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]rex123 wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 09:23 pm (UTC)
arthur - it looks like with your way of thinking you gona die forever anyway (that is not to get Life Eternal) so in your case it is probably really no difference wether you'll commit your suicide or die natural way - so do watever you want but don't incite others here to follow you...
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 01:31 pm (UTC)
"it looks like with your way of thinking you gona die forever anyway (that is not to get Life Eternal) so in your case it is probably really no difference wether you'll commit your suicide or die natural way"

Whereas you are already dead, rex123 - you are dead in the *head*; it's a miracle (praise the Lord!) that the residual nervous activity in your spinal chord is sufficient for you to be able to type your god-bothering gibberish on this thread. But that must nevertheless be the case, because your posts certainly weren't written by anyone with a functioning cerebrum.

" so do watever you want but don't incite others here to follow you..."

Oh no, relentless proselytizing is the right of the religious alone, isn't it? Only god-botherers are allowed to incite others to follow them, eh?

Anencaphalic prat!
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 06:08 pm (UTC)
There is no "after-life" -- no "heaven" or "hell" or "other place." These are man-made scare tactics. If you read your bible, the ancient Hebrews of the Old Testament did not believe in an afterlife, but went "to sleep" in a place of "shades"--from which they would never awaken. The terms "to sleep .. in shades" was a metaphoric symbolism much as it is today to say "passed away"--when it is best to be blunt and say "died." Hopefully I do "incite" others to discard the religious nonsense of an afterlife so they can live this life to the fullest. To suffer and "offer up suffering" in quest of a future life (that has never been proven) is nonsense and a waste of energy and sanity.

I definitely am not "gona [that word actually refers to my testicles, I assume you meant "going to"] die forever" as there is no "forever" and death is ultimately within an instant. What is "die natural way"--a bullet or bomb in a war? and explosion of a furnace or other device in a home? a knifing in a dark alley?--there is no "natural way" of dying--just the reality of death regardless of how it comes.

A good grammar book would help your compositions. And look, also, at a few sources on spelling. Otherwise, I wish you well, and if you would prefer the unscientific concepts of theology, that is your choice. But all tyrants from Mussolini to Hitler to Bush to Blair called on their phantom gods to justify their attrocities and like the Taliban (a word that means "theological student") they offer the "reward" of an afterlife--much like Pope Innocent III did at Claremont in 1095 when he had the assembled warriors scream "Deus veulte"--so similar to Hitler's "Gott mit unus" and Bush/Blair's "god is on our side."

Having clinically died once (for five minutes) I can assure you there is no bright light, no singing naked angels, no harps, nothing--just black. I have no fear of death, for it is part of the evolution of all things until the time comes for our solar system to explode and be absorbed in a dark black hole.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 07:46 pm (UTC)
"A good grammar book would help your compositions. And look, also, at a few sources on spelling."----------------------------------------You are really a fool - I am Russian and have never been to UK - I live in St.Petersburg (Russia) - is your Russian spelling better then my English?
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 08:02 pm (UTC)
Far better. I took a degree at Moscow. You living in Russia--the capital of hate in this world--is nothing to brag about. Russia had the infamous Czars who slaughtered innocent women, children, and elderly for sport. The Duma is at best a mouthpiece for autocracies and a corrupt church that makes martyrs out of murderers such as the Czar (Tsar) and his evil wife. I have spent decades studying Russia's infamous history and especially its religions who grow fat on superstition and deny people a free expression.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:29 pm (UTC)

You are also a racist as I see...I am not surprised.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 02:32 pm (UTC)
I am a racist? please define--I am of mixed race, and my brother is married to a Japanese, I to a Mexican, etc. Being anti-Russia is not racism as Russia is a mixture of a plethora of racists--the only "white" Russians are from the Czarist era, and the Romanovs were the most bitter of all racists. Racism is intolerance because of skin pigmentation. You do need to use a dictionary.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 05:02 pm (UTC)
Well, in British and American press they use word racism not only for intolerance of skin pigmentation (although originally the meaning of this word was about race) - if you hate let's say particularly Norvigians and you are lets say German - you are also racist despite you are of the same colour of skin. You havn't indicated that you hate communists or for example monarchists etc. - you exactly attested that you are "anti- Russia" - quotation from you, further you elaborated that you are against Russian church (which for centuries was defining Russia's culture the same as for ex. Catholic church defined Irish culture etc. ), also you lied about Rusian tsars killing people for sports etc.etc. I know a lot of fools like you who think that to learn encyklopedia by heart means to become clever - no way. Also your Russian spelling should be compared to my poor English as it (your Russian) was BEFORE you came to Moscow for your practice, not after (wreck your brains WHY - although hardly you'll get it). I don't want to respond any more for your posts because I do not respect you. Be well, hope your bragging about your future suicide is just bragging - maybe the God will bring you to normality one day.
Re: Life is not precious when seriously or terminally ill
[info]arthur_ide wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 08:10 pm (UTC)
With the ascent of Czar Peter I ("the Great") the Russian Orthodox Church became a organ of the state, and committed more crimes against humanity than did the Roman Catholic Spanish Inquisition (http://www.csun.edu/~kaddison/497F06/bloore.doc) putting to death millions of people who disagreed with its programs that turned into pogroms. More vicious than the Protestants or Roman Catholics in western Europe, the Russian Orthodox Church launched numerous bloody slaughters of Jews: It is no coincidence that in the entry on 'Orthodoxy' in the seventh volume of the Kratkaya Evreiskaya Entsyklopedia, devoted to the Russian Orthodox Church (pp. 733-743), where numerous examples are given of persecution of the Jews in Russia, including religious persecution. Although the authors of the article state that the active role of the Church in inciting the government to conduct anti-Jewish acts (for example in the case of Ivan the Terrible's policy in the defeated territories) is 'obvious' http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=787; Shlomo Lambroza, John D. Klier (2003) Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, Cambridge University Press. It was for this reason the Lenin ruled against the continuation of the Russian Orthodox Church--and even when Russia became a part of the Soviet Union, corrupt clergy caused revolts in the name of further enriching the church. The mythology of an afterlife was used systematically by the church leaders to guile the witless to conduct atrocities equal to anything that the Roman Catholic Adolf Hitler could devise in his defense of Jesus and his god: ?I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.? ( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. ) ?Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.? ( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )

No god is necessary as all gods past and present have done more harm to mortals and freedom than all the tyrants that led nations into battle in the name of these gods and goddesses.
Another jurisdiction
[info]lasvegasrich wrote:
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 at 09:17 pm (UTC)
Why is the Metropolitan Police questioning the children of this couple? They didn't die in the UK, and they should let the family grieve in peace. The Rev. Dr. Alex should realize that not everyone believes that we live in a God fearing society. My God is a loving God, and I don't fear him. I know if I were in the desperate condition these two were in, and took my life, that He would understand, and welcome me to His presence.This reluctance to allow gravely ill people, to decide that they should end their lives, is based on the thinking of people like the Rev. People like the Downes, should be able to decide their fate without government interference.
[info]wakey67 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:25 am (UTC)
The contributions to this thread from 'believers' further convinces me that religion teaches predjudice on a global scale. It appears that if you are not a part of this gang culture comprising religious groups then you are further down the moral chain ! Surely as Christians, or any other faith for that matter, love and understanding are the teachings of Jesus/God, not judgement of another persons actions. It appears from the religious outpourings that non-believers do not live by any moral standards. I would consider myself a none believer in Jesus/God, however, I do believe that for a safe and principled society, individuals should live by 'religious' values. I find it patronising that religious types feel they are so morally superior that they can pontificate to us on the way ahead. My partner is a Catholic, I have attended church on several occaisions at funerals, weddings etc. The 'rituals' carried out at these ceremonies are verging on the tribal, the drinking of his blood and his flesh etc etc I love life, I appreciate the Earth's riches and the beauty of nature, I am grateful for the love I have in my life, I value all my friends and family, I feel joy, however, I don't feel terror that this is all going to end one day ! In fact it does the exact opposite, it makes me appreciate every single minute I'm alive. Feeling that there must be more than this life misses the point, if you can't appreciate the joy of life and have to put all your beliefs in 'a better place' then are you missing the point. Your life should be led with the joy of just being in existence, not the worry that you will be judged by a greater being. This does not mean you can carry on regardless, as I said 'religious' values are the way to an organised, loving and peaceful society, however, the belief in a devine being as some sort of punisher of the wayward does not have to play any part in these values. If you live your life under these 'religious' values just to get into the afterlife party then once again you miss the point, you should live your life according to these values REGARDLESS as to whether you get an invite to the afterlife party. If I live my life according to 'religous' values but don't believe in a supreme being, am I less worthy than anyone that does believe ? Religion is and always has been a way of controlling the masses, keep them uneducated, poor, fearful and subjugated and they will come to the alter in droves. It is a FACT (I know religion doesn't do facts) that the more intelligent/educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe in a God. Religion generally dismisses science (Evolution etc), however, if science could find a drop of blood from 'Jesus' which proved he was from an immaculate conception (DNA proof), would religion dismiss this proof or would they seize it as scientific FACT that God/Jesus exists ? Just to repeat myself, religious values are intrinsically good, however, they are hijacked by groups/individuals to further their own interests, e.g politicains, celebrities, political groups, terrorist groups etc etc

Can any one of the regligious types out there answer me this question: Is the refusal to continue with medical treatment suicide ? God gave us the ability to provide this medical treatment so the refusal of a God give treatment surely goes against his wishes and so is a sin right or wrong ?
Hear hear!
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 01:42 pm (UTC)
"Religion is and always has been a way of controlling the masses, keep them uneducated, poor, fearful and subjugated and they will come to the alter in droves. It is a FACT (I know religion doesn't do facts) that the more intelligent/educated a person is, the less likely they are to believe in a God."

Hear hear!
Re: Hear hear!
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 02:20 pm (UTC)
Dear sickofstupidity and wakey67 - I am not saying that you are immoral - there are a lot of people whoes morals are the same as of the Bible, but they don't believe in God (unfortunatelly)...I want you to undestand the following - I am not "parading" my faith, I am posting here because in my opinion by commiting a suicide you may loose Life Eternal and I want smth. better for you. Nobody can force anybody to believe in God, but I think you have the right to be reminded about dangers of commiting a suicide from a religious prospective....Thank you also for calling me an IDIOT - since I am Russian, I understand this word as it is interpreted in the famous novel by Dostoyevsky - "Idiot" - the main charackter of it -prince Mishkin is probably one of the most attractive herous in Russian literature and yes, he is the most famous Idiot I ever heard about. I think you should read more of Russian classics from the 19 century - it will improve your attitude to Christianity (once even Bible doesn't help) - all is translated in your language and avalable.
Re: Hear hear!
[info]sickofstupidity wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 05:53 pm (UTC)
"I am posting here because in my opinion by commiting a suicide you may loose Life Eternal"

That is your opinion, and you are - unfortunately - entitled to declare it. By the same token, non-believers are entitled to tell you that they don't give a fig for your opinion - based as it is on ancient mythology and primitive superstition, as opposed to evidence, logic and objective reality - and that you are a deluded fool for holding it.

You are also entitled to suggest (as you clearly do) that your faith makes you a better, more moral and more virtuous person than those who do not share it, however delusional that belief is. And non-believers are entitled to give you a verbal lynching for your arrogance and conceit.

"Nobody can force anybody to believe in God,"

Not any more, thanks goodness. But let's not forget that there was a time when atheism, heresy, blasphemy and apostasy were punishable by imprisonment, torture or death (and in some cultures - e.g. in some Islamic countries - they still are).

"but I think you have the right to be reminded about dangers of commiting a suicide from a religious prospective...."

But your religion is delusional nonsense, and so its 'perspective' is worthless.

"Thank you also for calling me an IDIOT "

You're welcome. It was in response to your - thinly disguised - assertion that non-believers are immoral, and that assisted suicide is a 'sin' in the eyes of your (imaginary) god, and therefore a wicked and evil thing. Both assertions are clearly idiotic, and just I called a spade a spade. You can always rely on *rationalist* to speak the *truth* when he sees it, becuase we are as devoted to the truth as you are to your god. :o)

"- since I am Russian, I understand this word as it is interpreted in the famous novel by Dostoyevsky - "Idiot" - the main charackter of it -prince Mishkin is probably one of the most attractive herous in Russian literature and yes, he is the most famous Idiot I ever heard about. "

This is the second time you have made reference to your country of origin. What possible relevance does it have to this debate? And I assure you that my use of the term 'idiot' was not an attempt at some clever literary allusion to an 'attractive hero' of 19th century Russian fiction; it was not meant to be complimentary...

"I think you should read more of Russian classics from the 19 century - it will improve your attitude to Christianity (once even Bible doesn't help) - all is translated in your language and avalable."

And you should read more *scientific writing* from 20th and 21st centuries; it might - just possibly - increase your understanding and appreciation of the world around you, and help you to see the extraordinary power of human rationality - a gift which you squander so shamelessly with your tragic devotion to ancient myth and supersition. It might even lead you to realize that science - with its rational, scientific worldview - is the greatest cultural and intellectual achievement of mankind, and the polar opposite of religion, which, when stripped of all its flowery liturgy, psuedointellectual theology and devotional ritual, is nothing but a testament to the ignorance and stupidty of our primitive ancestors.
[info]rex123 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 02:45 pm (UTC)
wakey67 wrote : "...If you live your life under these 'religious' values just to get into the afterlife party then once again you miss the point, you should live your life according to these values REGARDLESS as to whether you get an invite to the afterlife party."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear wakey67, you relly need to read more on what is Christianity - where have you found such an opinion that that priority of Christian life is "afterlife party" (as you put it) - Life Eternal is outcome. a result of Christian life, - priority is accepting the Holy Spirit - that is such a condition of your heart and soul which gives you Live in Fullness of Love (Love to the God and to your neighbour), love which reveal itself in desire to feed the hungry, to give shelter to homeless, to cure the ill, to comfort those in despare... There are many people who want to "jump" to Kingdom of Heaven without Loving others, there are a lot of such types among British "prudent" ladies, both arrogant and despising the dirt of misery and poorty (such types think that it is indignity to pee in your pants if you are ill and they will never help you simply because your illness stinks) - they have no chances - only the Holy Spirit which brings UNCONDITIONAL love to our hearts put you in a position to inherite Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven after your own death...This all is simplified and is some ABC of Orthodox Christianity - I understand you know nothing about it (from what you write), but since your partner is a believer and so you are not so hateful to religion as some others here - I think you are not yet lost forewer - read more and don't trust too much for so called political correctness of our times - times are passing by, but Christian values stand forever.
[info]wakey67 wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 11:45 am (UTC)
Dear Rex, you appear to be missing my point, I BELIEVE in what you call 'Christian' values, however, I prefer to call them 'moral' values, failing to attach some sort of mythical overlord to MY values does not make me or my values any less worthy. I have during my comments made no reference to a specific nationality or group of people, you however have singled out ' British 'prudent' ladies' as being 'arrogant and despising the dirt of misery'. Isn't this prejudice ? Doesn't your God preach that prejudice is wrong ? It appears that you judge people more than I do, but because you believe in YOUR God you will be welcomed into Heaven. Sounds a bit like hypocrisy to me. I emphasised the word YOUR in the last sentence to highlight the fact that you only believe in YOUR God, YOUR God is no more worthy of belief than ANY other God, however, the Christian faith has over the last 2000 years persecuted any other belief in other God/Gods. Why does the Christian faith, and other faiths for that matter, think its own God/Gods is/are somehow superior to the God or Gods of any other religion, be that global or some tribe in the deepest darkest jungles of South America. I assume that you believe YOUR God is the ONLY God, does this mean that everyone who believes in another line of faith, God or Gods is misguided ? If so, is there the slightest possibility that you're the misguided ones and a tribe that believes the moon is a dragon or whatever are the ones worshipping the ONE true faith ?

Oh and by the way you said and I quote 'but since your partner is a believer and so you are not so hateful to religion as some others here', it is terribly presumptuous that you consider anyone that questions religion is hateful. As someone who tries to live by moral values, I try not to hate anyone or anything regardless of differences in opinion. Please don't patronise me and say I am 'not yet lost forever' I am VERY happy with my views and don't yearn for the day that God/Jesus finds me and redeems me for life eternal, I do not need his help to find some point in my own, the worlds and the universes existance. If you wish to support yourself emotionally and spiritually by a belief in a mystical diety that is your decision, please do not try and convert me, please do not try and educate me and finally PLEASE do not look down your morally superior nose at me.
[info]rex123 wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 06:03 pm (UTC)
wakey, I mentioned British ladies only because I thought you live in Britain and so you'll understand what I mean - you want me to write Russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian lady? - I am not sure you've seen one, but OK, let it be - which you want? - Russian? - no problem.

Who told you I think I am superior then you in moral aspect? - I am a sinner and I am afraid I am more sinner then majority of Christians...Patronising you? - OK, excuse me...but I would like frankly some more people in my life try to patronise me in a way that wishing me smth. good and giving a hand of help, sometimes I want to be patronised, but people just don't care...interesting how different we are...Your pointing that the church persicuted unbelivers in the past and blaming contemporary church for it is the same as me saying that those were hunam beings who persicuted and once you yourself is also a human being - you are guilty of those persicutions - absurdity...As for your question why The God of Christians, Jews and Muslims is real and pagan beliefs about Moon is a Dragon are false - try to understand that if the God is ALMIGHTY and LOVING it means that there is only one GOD (I hope there is no need to explain why ALMIGHTY can be only ONE? and if he is LOVING there is no need to explain that He wants for us eternal life in love) - you may call him different names but it doesn't change his main charackteristics - while analising religious texts in unknown language you'll realise wether it is about the God or it is just pagan beliefs in spirits or smth. like that - both you and me we don't speak lets say swahili, and we don't know what's the swahili for the God, but if smbdy will translate the text for us - we will understand wether word "mungu"(swahili for "god") is used regarding the God of Christians, Muslims and Jews, or about local pagan deety. I think you don't want me to retell hear the Bible and volumes of Christian literature - you asked why do I think my (Biblical) God is superior - I think I explain it as far as it is possible in such a place as this thread - thank you for reading.

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