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Women told: 'You have dishonoured your family, please kill yourself'

As Turkey cracks down on 'honour killings', women are now told to commit suicide

By Ramita Navai in Batman, eastern Turkey

This family of sisters said there had been an honour killing in their village, in one of the most patriarchal areas of Kurdish Turkey, and they live in constant fear

This family of sisters said there had been an honour killing in their village, in one of the most patriarchal areas of Kurdish Turkey, and they live in constant fear

When Elif's father told her she had to kill herself in order to spare him from a prison sentence for her murder, she considered it long and hard. "I loved my father so much, I was ready to commit suicide for him even though I hadn't done anything wrong," the 18-year-old said. "But I just couldn't go through with it. I love life too much."

All Elif had done was simply decline the offer of an arranged marriage with an older man, telling her parents she wanted to continue her education. That act of disobedience was seen as bringing dishonour on her whole family – a crime punishable by death. "I managed to escape. When I was at school, a few girls I knew were killed by their families in the name of honour – one of them for simply receiving a text message from a boy," Elif said.

So-called "honour killings" in Turkey have reached record levels. According to government figures, there are more than 200 a year – half of all the murders committed in the country. Now, in a sinister twist, comes the emergence of "honour suicides". The growing phenomenon has been linked to reforms to Turkey's penal code in 2005. That introduced mandatory life sentences for honour killers, whereas in the past, killers could receive a reduced sentence claiming provocation. Soon after the law was passed, the numbers of female suicides started to rocket.

Elif has spent the past eight months on the run, living in hiding and in fear. Her uncles and other relatives are looking to hunt her down, for dishonour is seen as a stain that can only be cleansed by death. One of the women's shelters where Elif has stayed has been raided by armed family members.

Elif is from Batman, a grey, bleak town in the south-east of Turkey nicknamed "Suicide City". Three quarters of all suicides here are committed by women – nearly everywhere else in the world, men are three times more likely to kill themselves. "I think most of these suicide cases are forced. There are just too many of them, it's too suspicious. But they're almost impossible to investigate," said Mustafa Peker, Batman's chief prosecutor.

Wearing tight clothes or talking to a man who is not a relative is sometimes all it takes to blacken the family name. Mr Peker said women who are told to kill themselves are usually given one of three options – a noose, a gun or rat poison. They are then locked in a room until the job is done.

A woman's fate is usually decided during a "family council", when the extended family meets to discuss breaches of honour. In these meetings, it is agreed how the victim must be killed. If it is not to be a forced suicide, a killer is chosen. The youngest member of the family is often ordered to kill, in the belief they will be treated more leniently if caught.

Mehmet was 17 when he was handed a gun and told he would have to kill his stepmother and her lover. "I didn't want to do it. I was so young and so scared," he said. Mehmet ran away, but his family tracked him down and warned him his own life would be in danger if he refused to kill.

He shot dead his stepmother's lover, but his stepmother survived the attack. He was given a two-and-a-half- year prison sentence.

"There were many other 'honour killers' in prison and we were treated with respect, even by the prison guards," Mehmet said.

Most honour killings happen in the Kurdish region, a barren land ravaged by years of war and oppression. Rural communities here are ruled under a strict feudal, patriarchal system. But as Kurds have fled the fighting between separatist rebels and Turkey's government, the crime is spreading across the country into its cities and towns. According to a recent government report, there is now one honour killing a week in Istanbul.

"Families who move here are suddenly faced with modern, secular Turkey," said Vildan Yirmibesoglu, the head of Istanbul's department of human rights. "This clash of cultures is making the situation worse as the pressure on women to behave conservatively is become more acute. And of course there are more temptations."

Ms Yirmibesoglu believes that the entrenched belief in the notion of honour – at all levels of society – is impeding any progress. "Honour killings aren't always properly investigated because some police and prosecutors share the same views as the honour killers," she said. "For things to change, police, prosecutors and even judges need to be educated on gender equality."

Killing for Honour will be shown on Channel 4 tonight at 7.35pm

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[info]xokatyxo wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:47 am (UTC)
Incredibly depressing article.
The view of a civilised man
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:34 pm (UTC)
A similar epidemic in Iraqi Kurdistan
[info]saeedpour wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:21 am (UTC)
In 2007 Iraqi Kurdistan health care professionals and women?s experts reported a "suicide epidemic in which Kurdistan?s girls and young women are setting themselves on fire.Kurdistan, a largely self-governing region?doesn?t have accurate historical health data, but there were at least 360 female-burning suicides last year?Some victims are as young as 12, but most range from age 15 to 25 ...Hundreds more have survived with horrible scars, only to have their husbands and friends desert them and parents hide them.? (Kurdistan Observer 9.30.07)

According to the Kurdish Human Rights ministry, ?one theory for the self-immolations, which rose from 36 in 2005 to 133 in 2006, is that as penalties for murdering women have stiffened, men coerce women into killing themselves. (AP 10.6.07)

In November of 07, Voices of Iraq provided these statistics: ?Ninety seven women were burnt to death and 27 others killed in the three Kurdish provinces during the past four months, the human rights minister in the Iraqi Kurdistan region revealed?Surveys conducted in Arbil (the capital of the autonomous Iraqi Kurdistan region) showed that there were 60 cases of women burning in Arbil, 21 in Dohuk and16 in Suleimaniya. There were also 10 cases of women killing in Arbil, 11 in Dohuk and 6 in Suleimaniya,? said Kurdish official Yusuf Aziz Muhammad." (11.27.07) The UN Assistance Mission for Iraq routinely highlights ?honor killings? of Kurdish women among Iraq?s most severe human rights abuses.?

Also in November IRIN reported: ?At least 27 Iraqi Kurdish women have been murdered for having illicit affairs in so-called ?honor killings? in Iraq?s northern semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan over the past four months. The KRG minister for human rights was quoted as saying, ?Since the beginning of this year, the regional government of Kurdistan has formed a committee?to address all forms of violence against women and especially the ?honor killings.?? But the numbers have not slowed, they have escalated."

On December 13 of 07 Rebwar Fatah, director of Kurdmedia.com, observed: ?If the figure of 12,500 on the number of women killed for the reason of ?honor? in Kurdistan since 1991 is true, then we have absolutely no reason to claim any honor as a people,? he wrote. ?The fact that so many women are abused on a daily basis in Kurdistan with little consequences goes to show the complacency of Kurdish leadership in these heinous crimes. The Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) must be ashamed of these horrendous statistics. As a man and a husband I am deeply disturbed ... But alas, the KRG is a conglomerate of tribal confederacies with closely knit social fabric, tribal loyalties and a patriarchal foundation. Unfortunately, in such an atmosphere women are the obvious first victims.? Hawraman Ali agreed. ?When the talk is about the rights of women and equality, we have more organizations for the defense of women than any other similar nation, yet we have the highest record in the massacre of women and use of violence against them,? he said. ?Every year we organize seminars and conferences for the remembrance of women killed in anfal and genocide, but we kill more women than the number who die in Halabja every year.?(2.13.08)
And they're trying to rush through EU membership for Turkey??
[info]neil_mcgowan wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:05 am (UTC)
To call this "medieval" would be an insult to the Middle Ages.
Re: And they're trying to rush through EU membership for Turkey??
[info]123pen_pen wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:43 am (UTC)
I agree with neil_mcgowan. That was the first thing I thought of!
I looked at the country (Turkey) just to make certain I read it right.
Turkey?! I thought! OMG!
how awful to have EU membership with primitives like that!
good grief!
[info]peersrogue wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:54 am (UTC)

Disgusting and shameful, a travesty of what life should be like for these poor women. Truly, when it comes to women, sex and anyone who dares to love differently the 3 monotheist religions are as harsh, cruel, unforgiving and as deadly as the deserts they were born in. How can we condone this? Or welcome Turkey into the EU when this is their true face - men getting away with murder or forcing young women to kill themselves?
nothing less than another name for callous murder
[info]brazil2009 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:17 am (UTC)
I find it hard to come to terms with the fact that there are people who believe honour killing is OK.
This honour killing thing is nothing less than fear and pure ignorance. Fear that the opressed women may change into something else they cannot control. They are cowards. The whole family sometimes. It is schocking. It is a deeply moving plight these women have to endure. Depressing stuff.

"honour" suicide
[info]boeticia wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 03:26 am (UTC)
Kemal Ataturk did his best to reform and modernise his country, but unfortunately, died much too early. The idea of honour-killing tradition isn't limited to Turkey alone, though, because the same patriarchal attitude towards women's role in a family/community, is also to be found in Arab societies. Perhaps, the difference between Turkey and the Arab countries, is that the latter still very much follow - or are nfluenced, by their nomadic code of behaviour. Some years back, a young Saudi princess who had studied in the Lebanon, where she eventually married in secret a distant relative not acceptable to her family, was unfortunately lured back to Saudi Arabia with him, with the promise all was forgiven, only to be stoned to death as a punishment, at the insistence of her nomad grandfather - and against the Saudi King's wishes. Her young husband was forced to watch the stoning, before being himself
executed. Sadly, this archaic tradition is still practised even some families settle in a western society,
perhaps even more so, when the liberal western way of life clashes with patriarchical morals.
Please, no more
[info]desertann wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 05:36 am (UTC)
Wow, now I need to find something to lift my mood up. How upsetting to read.
[info]andre_t wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 06:16 am (UTC)
...wait a minute, who is asking for Kurdish self rule in Turkey and who has enabled the same for Northern Iraq - at the heart of this problem lies the feudal and patriarchal society.
Honor?
[info]mango3dl wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 07:27 am (UTC)
This.. notion blackens the word 'honor' and tarnishes any man or woman that has behaved honorably. How can 'honorable service' be viewed as it should be when the word is used to support murder of girls and women?!
Women are the most cherished of gifts that the good Lord saw fit to bestow upon this mudball backwater of a planet. Anyone attempting to defend such a notion as '(dis)honor killings' insults our specie.
Some nights I wonder if my beliefs will condemn me to an eternity of hellfire. If they do I take solace in knowing I will see many of you 'honor killers' there. Hell can't be all torture if I get to witness you getting your just desserts.
Burn **er, BURN!
-Mango
The above opinion is that of the author, and him alone.
Re: Honor?
[info]vhawk1951 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 01:08 pm (UTC)
"honour, as I spell it, "who hath it? - he died a Wednesday", not sure of the source but would be glad to be told- Shakespeare I think, one of the kings
Re: Honor? - [info]djpriestley - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Honor? - [info]vhawk1951 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:01 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Honor? - [info]vhawk1951 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 01:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Bright Spot
[info]joshuasgrandma wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:23 am (UTC)
The only bright spot in this sadly depressing account is that by this practice, they are dooming themselves to extinction - can't be soon enough
Re: Bright Spot
[info]lytav wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:22 pm (UTC)
Agreed, these cowards are killing themselves out of existence. Hoping it comes sooner rather than later.
shades of - [info]cronyblatcher - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 12:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Strike it from the language.
[info]rojaws wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:25 am (UTC)
The word 'honour' should be struck out of every language.
It's the same word that's participated in sendinding millions of people to their deaths in futile & meaningless wars.
Re: Strike it from the language.
[info]jonathancr wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:42 am (UTC)
Absolutely.
Re: Strike it from the language. - [info]vhawk1951 - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 02:55 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Strike it from the language. - [info]sciamachy - Monday, 30 March 2009 at 05:37 pm (UTC) Expand
Turkey & EU membership
[info]hezza14 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:29 am (UTC)
Blair/Brown and Noo Laybore are the prime movers in getting Turkey into the EU. By no stretch of the imagination is the country of Turkey in Europe.

No doubt our esteemed leader will reject any criticism and welcome honour killings as a cultural and human right in the enlarged EU.

I agree with Neil MacGowan.

EU
[info]gollymolly44 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:52 am (UTC)
Perhaps we should let the female Turks into the EU bu not the males. That would be the "honourable" thing to do.
Re: EU
[info]mimarkorhan wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:38 am (UTC)
Aye...

as a Turkish male from istanbul i second that.

but there is another fact also not to be neglected:
if the EU hadnt supported the current governing party AKP we wouldnt have so much state officers who make their own decisions according to their believes... these murders are not just against EU laws as most of the commentators mentions, they are also against Turkish laws. but since the ruling party has roots of islamic traditions, as the officers they put in charge, the suffering people does not have so much people to turn to.

the government traditions are not very similar like those in EU, so if a party gains high vote and has the right to rule the country they assign the people who has ideals like their own.

EU should have made press on these subjects firstly but she decided to press upon us on other subjects that are unrelated with our society's modernization.

i believe we were on the right course till AKP but now i am afraid we are getting far from EU and actually i cant belame much of the commentators when they say that they dont want us in.

but as i have mentioned, i second the opinion of you. let the women in, educate and support them. the women (anywhere around the globe) are the key to any modernization movements.
Re: EU - [info]sableagle - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 05:42 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: EU - [info]ebbi581 - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 04:52 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: EU - [info]mimarkorhan - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:48 pm (UTC) Expand
This has existed thoughout centuries, why mention it now?
[info]djangovsartana wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 08:58 am (UTC)
Even though it's a barbaric thing to do. This has existed thoughout centuries, why mention it now? Because it was now that Turkey wanted to join the EU so let's find an exuse to refuse them because they are Moslems. All the EU has to do is talk to the Turkish govenment and tell them to punish severely any so called honor killing or you will not join the club!
Re: This has existed thoughout centuries, why mention it now?
[info]falanf wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:20 am (UTC)
But "honour" killing (murder) is against EU law and the Turkish Government must know this. The problem is that customs and religion are often stronger than the law in Turkey (and many other places) and, knowing this, most inhabitants of the EU don't want these people to join.
Customs and honour
[info]falanf wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:14 am (UTC)
Perhaps this is the answer:
You say, said Lord Napier (confronted as C-in-C of the British Army in India by locals protesting against the suppression of suttee) that it is your custon to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn women alive, we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.
Re: Customs and honour
[info]irishinrussia wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:36 am (UTC)
also, your C in C was an animal and an imperial oppressor who had no right to be in India, and deplorable as the action of Suttee is, it is not acceptable to attack, murder, rape and pillage another nation and then assume a position of moral superiority just because we find their customs repugnant. The idea of imperialism being part of a white man's burden to spread civilisation is ridiculous, not least because civilisation is a subjective word.
Re: Customs and honour - [info]falanf - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:25 pm (UTC) Expand
Hypocrisy...
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:23 am (UTC)
I find it somewhat deplorable that people here would seek to refuse Turkey entry into the EU on account of what some are choosing to do.

Not to mention that Turkish Kurds aren't representative of the entirety of Turkish society, so why do you propose to paint the whole country with the same brush?

Is it not hypocritical to so demonise a nation when the attrocities committed by these people are inherent in human nature? Do we not all have tha capacity for acts of vile evil?

Todays society will convince you that we are all basically good and that some people just get worse and worse but no...I challenge you with this...we are all bad eggs. We are all dormant volcanoes and many of us simply need a push to unleash what's festering in our hearts.

Just look at the reactions to bar Turkey from the EU. Does this not speak of deep seated hatred? And if you hate in your heart, what makes you any better than the one who wants to kill to preserve their honour. You want to restrict because you believe you are cleaner than they.

But the UK in particular has it's own Honor Killing epidemic, and it's not committed primarily by those of a Turkish or Middle Eastern background but by members of every culture within this society...it's called gang culture, knife culture, gun culture, whatever you want to call it. These youths stalk the streets and kill if they believe their personal honor has been challenged in any way and they don't discriminate between who they target.

The root of the problem is human nature, and that is where the problem must be dealt with.

One person had the audacity to suggest that the upside to this is that they are driving themselves into extinction. Do you take pleasure in knowing another group of human beings could be obliterated? And before you say that they obviously deserve it, maybe you ponder whether you should go with them as even if you do not actively partake in genocide, what you're speaking of is genocide within your own heart.
Re: Hypocrisy...
[info]jonathancr wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:41 am (UTC)
Ridiculous muddled, and literally vicious, thinking.

First, even if it is true that everyone has the capacity to do terrible things, there is still rather a big difference between those who choose to exercise this capacity and those who do not. Everyone is a potential murderer, but that does not mean there is no moral distinction between an actual murderer and a merely potential one.

Second, the reactions to this article do not "speak of deep seated hatred". To consider the widespread murder or forced suicide of women on trivial grounds abhorrent is not "hatred", it is basic decency. It speaks of morality, not hatred. If you really cannot distinguish the attitude of someone who thinks a woman has to die because she's done something her male relatives don't like, and the attitude of someone who thinks that this is wrong, then you have simply abandoned all rational discourse.

You speak of those who consider these killings abhorrent as "want[ing] to restrict". Absolutely. Of course people should not be allowed to do the kinds of things described in this article. But that is a less burdensome restriction than the restriction placed by these men upon women. Again, if you really cannot understand that killing people or forcing them to kill themselves represents a greater restriction and a greater assault upon basic human rights than preventing such killings, your rationality is clearly impaired to a pathological degree - to say nothing of your morality.
Re: Hypocrisy... - [info]wer_wind_blows - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Hypocrisy... - [info]jonathancr - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 06:39 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]nooraza wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:37 am (UTC)
So, xokatyxo; djangovsartana and desertann - You seemed to regard such topic as joke do you? Women/girls human rights abuses are unimportant to all of you?

This is about religion since such practise is widespread in Islamic communities. Yes, the existence of hard reality of Muslim women being killed or gang-raped in honor killings, being forced into marriage, the injustice of the medieval sharia "laws", the imposition of the veil on young girls (including before puberty) and women whether by force or through manufactured consent, the stoning of adulterous women and the list goes on and on, is beyond my rational comprehension of how a religion can turn out as it is, and yet seemed to be tolerated and accepted by most believers. Further, the only way to liberate such oppressed groups is for them to reclaim the power to re-intepret the male-elite interpretation of their Islamic holy book and laws; and this can only be achieved by de-politicizing Islam and sending back such politicized cultural tradition to where it actually and originally belongs, in the personal realm; such as what the Reformation in Christianity that gave birth to Protestantism is about. Thus, they then can interpret for themselves how they perceive such injustice and inequality from their own eyes, and their own liberated minds and most important of all, their own self-identity.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,555667,00.html

05/27/2008
THE HIGH PRICE OF FREEDOM
Honor Killing Victim Wanted to Live Like other German Girls
At age 16, all Morsal Obeidi wanted was to live the way other girls in Germany do. She paid dearly: Obeidi's brother stabbed her 20 times. Her murder has sparked a renewed debate in Germany about the failure of many immigrant families to integrate into Western society.
At - http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html
3/02/2005
It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here.The problem is that much of this insular and ultra-religious world is out of public view, often hidden in inner-city apartments where the most influential links to the outside world are satellite dishes that receive Turkish and Arabic television and the local mosque. Tens of thousands of Turkish women live behind these walls of silence, in homes run by husbands many met on their wedding day and ruled by the ever-present verses of the Koran. In these families, loyalty and honor are elevated virtues and women are treated little better than slaves, unseen by society and often unnoticed or ignored by their German neighbors. To get what they want, these women have to run. They have to change their names, their passports, even their hair color and break with the families they often love, but simply can no longer obey.
In UK too
[info]leonore35 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 09:50 am (UTC)
We have had honour killings in UK also quite recently. As usual this, like female genital mutilation is condoned by Islam, they claim it has nothing to do with Islam, but they have had the power to forbid it for centuries and have failed. Why? Because it is a misogynistic faith, in most Muslim countries women are not just unequal to men they are the possessions of men. If there is uncontrolled migration when Turkey is granted entry and there will be I am sure, we can look forward to this savagery becoming more frequent in UK and elsewhere.
These people have no understanding of love for their families, only what other people think of them.
Turkey
[info]falanf wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:08 am (UTC)
As my Turkish Muslim friend used to tell me, "Men 70, women 30". And in Muslim law the word of one man is worth that of several women. It is that deep-seated attitude that still exists in Turkey (and wherever Turks and Muslims have settled) that frightens us about allowing Turkey into the EU. Incidentally, if the Turkish (Islamic) customs that govern so many in Turkey are so great, why do they want to join the sinners of the EU?
Oh great!
[info]swordofalbion wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 10:22 am (UTC)
So when this bunch of scum get the go ahead from the EUSSR, we'll have thousands more women hating rapist filth on our streets. Knew I was right not to have kids!
autumn
[info]autumn_hue wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:00 am (UTC)
Even though the statute books have been changed to mete out the appropriate punishment for this barbaric practice, obviously the patriarchal system wins again by enforcing "murder" upon the victim and I suppose with the police/ coroners turning a blind eye- then I suppose, who is going to come forward and report this. The practice has nothing to do with Islam, it is rather a cultural abomination of its teachings. Actually to prove adultery, Islam stipulates the presence of 4 witnesses to the act itself, rendering it almost impossible to prove without a doubt- possibility, suspicion and conjecture have no room in such a serious accusation. Also, the punishment, once adultery is proven absolutely, is handed out to both parties and is not exclusively against women.

The fact is, this ill treatment of women is prevalent in various sections of Eastern/African cultures and is not religion specific. It usually occurs among the least educated and poorest sections of society.

Women (and children) are, unfortunately the weaker members of society and will therefore have to suffer its injustices- notice how they are always the first victims of wars wherever they occur including Europe (let's remember the rape camps in Bosnia).

My heart goes out to the women living in these areas. The sense of fear, desperation and hopelessness they encounter every day must be unbearable.
Re: autumn
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:24 am (UTC)
Agreed, these kinds of things are not religion specific and are often culturally specific, as you can find similar practices in Africa. For example, people often say that Islam permits female circumcision even though this is a pratice that is mostly prevalent in africa and predates the introduction of Islam within parts of Africa.

Also, Turkey was recently the subject of controversy among the Islamic world as scholars are questioning the authenticity of the Hadith, from which many Islamic practices come.

This isn't to say that there aren't glaring injustices and atrocities that happen, but the situation needs to be seen in its entirety, only then can a true solution be reached.
Re: autumn - [info]highplains2 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:35 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: autumn - [info]highplains2 - Saturday, 28 March 2009 at 04:56 pm (UTC) Expand
And what will happen to Kurdish women
[info]larkspur_14 wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:03 am (UTC)
if the Kurds get the independent country they crave? Support for "Kurdistan" needs to be much more discriminating. After ten years of autonomy under the no-fly zone policy enforced by the US and UK, the Kurds in Iraq are still a repressive, patriarchal society, and threatening civil war with other Iraqis over the possession of territories containing oil fields. Anti Iranian Kurdish groups are being funded by the west. Turkish Kurds are used as excuses against Turkish membership of the EU, yet their independence movement still tends to get the support of westerners whose chief motivation seems to be hatred of muslims. So much confusion, hypocrisy and double standards, and through it all it is women who suffer (as they have paid a heavy price in Iraq for the overturning of a mainly secular social system in the name of "humanitarian intervention").
And this is a country that wants to join the EU
[info]hellywobs wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:08 am (UTC)
Heaven help us.
Re: And this is a country that wants to join the EU
[info]noturkeyineu wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:08 pm (UTC)
actually a majority of turks do not want to join the EU they know Europe hates them and Turkey being one of the few counties in "europe" not in recession I would say its a good thing for them not to join.
STATE SPONSORED CHILD ABUSE
[info]indypen wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:25 am (UTC)
All form of religion foisted on a child is abuse.
The sacrifice of circumcission, wearing of a burkha, under age marriage, mental trauma.
The state sanctions all this, therefore it is institutionally abusive.
Re: STATE SPONSORED CHILD ABUSE
[info]wer_wind_blows wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:51 am (UTC)
Doesn't circumcission have hygienic benefits, and would you also agree that piercing the ear of a young child is therefore also abuse, when that has no hygienic benefit?

Didn't Turkey abolish compulsory wearing of headscarves? And if it's explained to the child why some wear head scarves or full body dress, they are given a choice and the child chooses to do so, is that child abuse?

Whilst I don't agree with young marriage, we often condemn societies that permit it when it was an almost universally accepted custom not long ago. We shouldn't always be so quick to look down on the customs of others when the morality of those customs is a bit of a grey area. If it is forced, no doubt it is abuse.

What mental trauma do you speak of exactly? Is western society completely free of sanctioned, potential mental traumas, and therefore free of state sanctioned child abuse?

I believe all forms of institutional religion are flawed, in that they rely on human effort to do what is impossible, namely reach Heaven itself, and therefore if one is convinced that this is the only way they can reach Heaven, indeed they are set upon a path which could be dangerous. However, these same children will eventually grow and reach the capacity to search for truth themselves and make their own choices. At this point, can they blame their own actions, which they themselves chose, on "child abuse"?
Re: STATE SPONSORED CHILD ABUSE - [info]jonathancr - Friday, 27 March 2009 at 06:34 pm (UTC) Expand
Bunch of patriarchs
[info]00simian wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 11:41 am (UTC)
It's complicated isn't it: there one is simplistically dishing out approbrium to the Turks for oppressing the Kurds and it gradually dawns on you that perhaps the Kurds (the men anyway) might not be worth the bother. I'm surprised Turkey doesn't just give them independence and let them get on with their patriacrhal uptopia.
Re: Bunch of patriarchs
[info]charlesboarden wrote:
Sunday, 5 April 2009 at 06:27 pm (UTC)
i was spankd hard as a kid and because became a sadist and am into bdsm with wips n chains and stuff and thus think we should not hit kids until they are 12 or more in age

charles_boarden@homedepot.com
charles boarden
578 Angier Ave NE
Atlanta, GA 30308
4048809498




IF YOU ARE ABUSED IN TIME YOU COME TO LOVE THE ABUSER
[info]indypen wrote:
Friday, 27 March 2009 at 12:41 pm (UTC)
Circumcission is a throw back to Abrahamic times when sacrifices were made. The foreskin being a sacrifice, and not done for reasons of hygene. In Spain most young girls have ear piercings, this is for fashion and has no religious conotations.
Give a girl the choice of wearing a burkha or not? What would the father do? Another choice, back of his hand or fist. So much choice in religion, we are spoilt. Look at another man. Another choice, noose, gun or rat poison.
Under age sex. Rape is not a grey area.
The mental trauma of state sponsored religion. In a nut shell conform or die heretic.
You take the religion, the language of your parents. One is a gift the other an indecent fabrication. How can parents do this- in the name of love?
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