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Adrian Hamilton: If terror is the problem, we won't solve it in Afghanistan

Justification for the war on anti-terror grounds is largely specious

So here we go again, in a war which half the population does not believe in, in which we are committing ourselves ever more deeply at the behest of the US and over which politicians display no real sense of purpose.

The most depressing aspect, once again, is just how hopeless the UK political system is in throwing up real debate. Instead of discussing objectives we have an increasingly bitter exchange of accusations about the availability of helicopters, the armoured protection of vehicles and the number of troops on the ground.

These are serious deficiencies, no doubt, and have been since the beginning. But talking about them is not going to do much good at this moment. Even if you allocated the money for dozens more helicopters and several thousand more troops, they would not arrive to help in the surge which is causing so many deaths this summer. The row over numbers is becoming just part of the political blame game – good for a pre-election spat but no use in deciding what the present numbers are there for, never mind more of them.

According to the Prime Minister they're there to ensure security for democratic elections to take place in the country this August and to deprive the enemy of safe havens where they can train and plan attacks on the West. But that simply begs the question of whether pouring troops into Helmand is the best way of achieving this, or indeed whether it can manage it at all. Three quarters of all the plots detected in Britain, according the Government's own intelligence are, after all, connected to Pakistan. Very few with Afghanistan.

Al-Qa'ida, insofar as it does exist as a centralised organisation bent on bringing terror to the West, has affiliates in a range of countries difficult to get at including the Yemen, Somalia and North Africa. It doesn't need Afghanistan as a training ground. Lose Afghanistan, answer ministers, and you lose Pakistan as well. Yes, but to lose Helmand Province doesn't mean that you necessarily lose Afghanistan as a whole.

There is a perfectly sensible strategy that would have coalition forces withdraw to concentrate on ensuring the main lines of communication throughout the country and keeping secure those parts of the north and west as well as the north-east, where the Taliban haven't had much of a hold but are beginning to make inroads (as recent deaths among German and Italian forces testify).

Insofar as the central problem is the Afghan-Pakistan border – as the military keep saying – then our troops might well be better employed sealing the border rather than trying to dominate a province. Pakistan, which has now undertaken a full offensive to take control of its border areas, complains that the co-alition efforts on the other side of the border are far too little and ineffective. And it may have a case.

If counter-terror and Pakistan's stability are our real concerns – as they ought to be – then that is where we should be concentrating our resources on, not waging a war in a land that has only rarely been controlled from the centre and which has always bitterly resented the presence of foreign troops. Most of our terror plots, and those of Europe, are home-grown. In so far as the would-be terrorist receives training abroad rather than from the internet, your best means of control is through the supervision of the coming and goings of young men and women from the country, particularly to Pakistan.

And if Pakistan stability is your main concern, then tackle it directly by helping that country develop a prosperous democracy instead of putting all our efforts in propping up a particular weak regime in Kabul.

The justification for the Afghan war on anti-terror grounds is largely specious. We're in Afghanistan because we – like others – wanted to support the US after 9/11 and removing the bases of al-Qa'ida seemed obviously right at the time. We're in the mess we are in now because we allowed that initial impulse to drift into a confused and under resourced attempt to impose security for the government, stamp out drug dealing, rebuild society and defeat the Taliban. We're suffering higher casualties now because we've joined a US-led surge which Washington has adopted for its own reasons and in which we have precious little say.

No-one seriously believes that the present policy of trying to do everything without the resources to do it is a viable option. But the only alternative is not to double up the ante. There are other perfectly viable possibilities. We could scale down the enterprise to concentrate on preserving rule and communication in the key parts of Afghanistan, leaving it up to the Afghans themselves to make deals or enforce control in the outer parts.

We could withdraw most of our troops, continuing with just a basic anti-terror force and border patrols or indeed we could announce a date for leaving altogether, as we and the Americans have done in Iraq.

The one thing we cannot do is to go on as we are, led by events and the despairing claim that "we cannot afford to lose this war". History is littered with the graves of the soldiers who died obeying that call.

a.hamilton@independent.co.uk

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And the trrops know it too.
[info]jl3793 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 04:08 am (UTC)
My son came back (fortunately in one piece and with no bits missing) from his tour in Afghanistan. He saw more blood and guts than an emergency room surgeon and helped several friends exit this world while they gurgled and spumed what he presumed was a last message to their mothers. And now he is getting ready for his 23rd birthday to eat chocolate cake and open a nice present and pretend that everything is just peachy keen. Well it isn't. Something is terribly wrong. And the worst thing is that no one can explain why anyone has to go through this or what it is supposed to accomplish. And we won't even think about the Afghans, because somehow we don't really count them in this equation. I certainly can't explain anything and he can't explain anything. And all the explanations that our leaders provide don't explain diddley. So the boots on the ground don't understand, us civilians back home don't understand, and our leaders don't understand. And I don't imagine that those blood drenched last words of his buddies had the explanation either.
Re: And the trrops know it too.
[info]bobbellinhell wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:33 am (UTC)
Thank you for that post jl, this is a side of soldiering that we aren't going to hear about from New Labour, with their victory processions and use of 'terror' as a universal excuse.
Justifications thin on the ground
[info]elevengoalposts wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 05:38 am (UTC)
Most military posturing in history involved absolutely clear, certain, physical threats - whatever the underlying motivations, real or imagined, might have been.
Now, we've moved on to possible, theoretical, maybe imaginary threats from distant locations, by unknown personnel, for unclear reasons. These apparently require pre-exemptive invasions and strikes at those hard-to-identify enemies.
The timeframe for the actions, the specific goals, the ultimate success factor, the exit strategy et al are no longer defined, delineated, described, whatever. Pronouncements of "succeeding in the war against terror" and "protecting national security" are apparently more than adequate reasons for the UK gov't to take action running for indefinite periods - no further explanation is necessary.
Then, when once underway, individuals and opposition parties would be vilified if they questioned the state of play, the strategy, the tactics and initial involvement. That would be "undermining our brave troops". Withdrawals become impossible because the deaths of the (unquestionably) brave troops "would be in vain".
So there you have it. No clear, precise reason for it, no firm targets, no end in sight.
And presiding PMs are called "leaders".
Never ending story
[info]tovasco wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 05:41 am (UTC)
The simple truth is that we should not be fighting for a democratic Afghan state,. The Afghans should be. How is it that in 1914/18 we were able to take ordinary members of the public by the million and train them to be an army but during almost twice as long in Afghanistan the national army comprises of just 90,000 men capable of holding a rifle the right way up? (The rest of them apparently are not) This in a country famed for the fierceness of its fighters....... Reports say that 85% of the army would fail drug tests........ The defense budget paid for by the Americans and us is four to five times the GNP. The situation is clearly unsustainable. All the Taliban have to do is wait............... We know it and our so called leaders know it, the Taliban certainly do.
Adrian Hamilton: If terror is the problem, we won't solve it in Afghanistan
[info]famulla wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 06:42 am (UTC)
Never ending story tovasco wrote: You sir are not a man you are a super man ...
Can we say we close the curtains now?
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla
Afghanistan
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 07:29 am (UTC)
So far as terror is concerned it's not in Afghanistan. Pakistan is the centre of world terror and all military and diplomatics efforts should be aimed there.
I read in the press the 'poll' showing something like just less than half the population 'approve' of this pointless and un-winnable war.
I have discussed this with innumerable people face to face and online and have not spoken to onesingle person in that 47% category...are we being fed the usual political PR by the usual suspects - I believe we are. Truth is the first victim........Plus ca change.
Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 07:38 am (UTC)
Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam.
Working class kids are dying while politicians posture.

If we are serious about tackling terrorism here, in this country, then that is where the effort needs to be made. We need to control our borders (tell the EU to naff off if they don't like it) they are OUR borders.

We need an immediate end to all third world immigration and the repatriation of all illegal immigrants - the fifth column in our midst is a real and present danger. Bringing 'democracy' (by armed force!) in Afghanistan is doomed to failure.
Re: Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:09 am (UTC)
Absolutely agreed rogersbrother but please please stop repeating the nulab. political spin about terror on our streets from Afghanistan. It is the purest of number 10 spin and complete junk, a sop to the voter and another sop to the security industry theatre of unemployables.
Re: Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:34 am (UTC)
I didn't say (or at least I didn't intend to) that the domestic threat is connected with Afghanistan.

The threat is an ideological one. Those responsible for the 7/7 bombings in this country (for example) were British born people of recent immigrant descent.

I don't know (or greatly care) about the geographical origins of those who rioted in the streets of Luton abusing British troops, or an earlier generation of lunatics who burnt 'The Satanic Verses' in the streets of Leicester (which I saw for myself) because they didn't like its contents. Similarly, the banning of an elected Dutch MP from this country, because his film 'Fitna' displeased 'Lord' Ahmed and a government who are afraid of free speech, is an affront to the traditions of dissent in our country.

The problems and the solutions are much closer to home but there can be no meaningful action this side of a General Election.

Re: Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam
[info]geiseric wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 11:22 am (UTC)
Do you think the Tories are going to be any different on these matters?
Re: Afghanistan is rapidly turning into our Vietnam
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 11:50 am (UTC)
Sadly, no.
And if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified it won't matter because Britain will cease to be a nation and become a province of Europe complete with an unelected 'President', quite possibly the appalling warmonger Blair.
Simple really
[info]daverawle wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:11 am (UTC)
It's about keeping Pakistan's nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Taliban. We can either keep fighting them in Afghanistan or nuke Pakistan. Which do you prefer?
War & brave troops
[info]snowdonwatcher wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:25 am (UTC)
I have just read the entry at the top of this list, "And the troops know it too".

I am very sorry for all the families put through this hell. I would certainly never vote for a war, be it Iraq or Afghanistan, but what I do not understand is why media organisations like the BBC do not have more people like jl3793 appearing on their news slots.

They seem to find the people who always tell us how brave the troops are, & how they believe in their cause etc. Now I would never dispute that they are brave, but I do wonder why they are there in the first place!

Am I mistaken, or did Russia once sit in Afghanistan for a while, lose a lot of troops, & retire to lick their wounds!
Re: War & brave troops
[info]ripsnorter757 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 10:17 am (UTC)
Russia was there for around 11 years and had 100,000+ troops there at any one time. When they finally left with their tail between their legs they had lost around 15,000 soldiers. Wootton Basset you are going to be sickenly busy.
Apart from their demented generals and their equivalent of our nulab. party throwing away the lives of their men I wonder what this cost in terms of cash? Any cash left Gordon?
Who still fancies this ludicrous un-winnable war apart from arms suppliers? (no need for you to reply) AND of course Mr. Miliband and his equally demented party.
Equipment argument is missing the point
[info]allenn007 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 09:40 am (UTC)
If you send troops to a war, then some of them will die, fact. That is the nature of war. It is a dirty, nasty, violent business, that we know little about because of news censorship which endeavours to sanitise it, and so we have to read between the lines.
But then we hear of multiple casualties as on Friday and for once we hear what 'war' is really about. It is about people dying. Not just on 'their' side (which we don't worry about), but on our side. The reality of war is brought home.

If the Government doesn't want them to perish then don't send them. It is incredibly arrogant to think that British troops should somehow be 'immune' to the violence of war, whilst the other side suffers casualties. Is it only the enemy that is allowed to die in a war? And so the equipment argument is used. In the Falklands, The British had enough equipment but still suffered casualties as you do in war.

The real question should be. What are they fighting for? And to now, no Government minister has come up with a convincing argument and nor will they.
What is this war about?
[info]geiseric wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 10:39 am (UTC)
A war on terror. We are fighting them because they are fighting us. If it carries on then perhaps some of their people will set off bombs in Britain.
But could someone please enlighten me. Why are we (both sides) fighting this war at all? What is it all about? Why would the militant muslims want to bomb us, and if the answer is because we are bombing them then what is the point of it all? What are our aims. What are the aims of the Taliban?

These questions need to be answered before we can say whether this war needs to be fought.
Re: What is this war about?
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 11:53 am (UTC)
"What are the aims of the Taliban?"
As far as I am aware they wish to impose their psychotic criminal lunacy on the entire World in the name of a 'religion of peace'.
Misuse of assets
[info]cybeeria wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 10:58 am (UTC)
The primary function of our armed forces is to defend Britain against its enemies, and the rapid spread of Islam means those enemies come from an increasingly large area. Unless we are prepared to double or treble our defence budget, there is only one sensible way to use the limited numbers we have to defeat terrorism. We must bring them home to ring-fence our own borders against those who would threaten us. This is not a battle that should be fought on foreign soil, costing hundreds of brave young lives. If UK points of entry were patrolled by soldiers, both overtly and covertly, large numbers of police would be freed up for internal operations against terrorists and other violent criminals. An additional benefit, apart from cost, would be the de-militarising of our police (increasingly the military arm of New Labour) and hopefully, over time, a return to a largely unarmed police force.
Re: Misuse of assets
[info]rogersbrother wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 11:57 am (UTC)
I agree.
War On Terror
[info]haggis20 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 11:16 am (UTC)
Dick Cheney and his Neo Con pals came up with the idea of the endless war on terror. It boosted the
profits of Armament firms like Carlyle Armament Group.As this firm was closely tied to Osama Bin Ladins family , John Majors position as European Director could be construed as Treasonable to the UK
people. Tony Blair manipulated the sale of the Scientific firm Quinetiq to this company and so he committed an Act of Treason.For this man to be made President of Europe and to be supported by the 'Socialist Elite' like the Kinnocks, shows that the Political Money grabbers need a good clear out from top to bottom.
Quite so, Adrian Hamilton
[info]catotheoldie wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 12:27 pm (UTC)
And we won't fight a war on terror Casablanca fashion, by rounding up a few of the usual suspects in the glare of media publicity and then quietly letting them go again when it turns out there is insufficient evidence to convict, or no evidence at all. The ricin plot, Forest Gate and the Easter bombing spectacular immediately spring to mind. Such Keystone Cop fiascos only drive the impressionable into the arms of extremists and make life difficult for the vast majority of law-abiding Muslims.

One hopes that when John Yates has got his feet under the table we will see a far more professional and effective approach to anti-terrorism operations. Especially if Mr Yates has the support he deserves from the newish Home Secretary - and those mandarins who presently appear more concerned with prodding him into further investigations of the Guardian's anti News of the Screws campaign. The Home Office's Sir Humphreys should remember how prodding the Met into feeling the collar of Damian Green ended: in tears. Not least for Bob Quick and Jacqui Smith.
But what about the children and the women?
[info]kerrygold wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 02:16 pm (UTC)
Didn't Harriet Harman recently add to the military objectives by saying that the troops were there to ensure that children could get to school? Also don't we wish to tackle female suppression, and other inequalities? Every week we come up with another reason to be there, but never seem to decide what the Afghan government should be responsible for, e.g. internal security, and what we are fighting for. What will happen is that Britain and America will eventually leave, handing over power in a big ceremony to the Afghan government, and then all the troops trained will be bought by the local warlords and they will get back to their drug pushing and corruption.
Terror Dolts and Doozie Dolts
[info]buckpool wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 02:26 pm (UTC)
The deaths and casualties of this so called war are purely collateral costs and part of the build up to the eventual solution of Afghanistan's so called 'democratisation'.

Eventually a Nu Taliban will emerge (Along the lines of Nu Labour - pragmatic to a selfish fault ) they will be offered the country provided they bend a few rules, appoint a few women to minor posts, execute a token amount of expendable extremists and put the word 'democratic' on their headed paper.

Their reward will be $2-3 trillion, a large wedge of which will be diverted to Geneva or the Dutch Antilles as consultancy fees for the 'democratic executive' while the bulk will be diverted to the global conglomerates for development, resource licensing and financial management to turn their wasteland into LaLa Land with altitude.

As they say, it's a win, win situation for everyone. 'Everyone' you ask?

Okay, they say, it is for everyone that matters.
Catch 22 situation
[info]corporeal_v001 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 03:00 pm (UTC)

1 USA and UK interfere with and control Middle East politics
2 Terrorists attack USA
3 Terrorists attack UK (because of its partnership with USA in the invasions in Iraq/Afghanistan).
4 Terrorists and Taliban fight back
5 USA and UK send more troops
6 Allied forces claims there are there to stop the terrorists
7 Invasion causes hatred of the enemy, go to 3.

And the cycle loops forver. Someone has to stop. Taliban have no where to go - they cannot backdown even if they want to.
Nowhere to go
[info]slingyerhook wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 05:50 pm (UTC)
Why should they go anywhere else? It's their country they're defending. Whereas our troops can come home.
Re: Catch 22 situation
[info]achilles0200 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 07:17 pm (UTC)
"And the cycle loops forver. Someone has to stop. Taliban have no where to go - they cannot backdown even if they want to."

The sort of argument that might have been used against overthrowing the Pol Pot regime. Which is fine if you don't happen to be one of its victims. Of course there the Vietnamese kindly obliged for us - I don't recall any bleeding heart liberals objecting to that!
Re: Catch 22 situation
[info]goatbucket wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 07:57 am (UTC)
Well the Vietnamese had to, because the SAS were busy training the Khmer Rouge. There was certainly no chance of British forces being sent to get rid of one of our "allies against communism".
Re: Catch 22 situation
[info]achilles0200 wrote:
Friday, 17 July 2009 at 09:35 am (UTC)
Well the Vietnamese had to, because the SAS were busy training the Khmer Rouge. There was certainly no chance of British forces being sent to get rid of one of our "allies against communism".

Er the Khmer Rouge were Communist. But setting that aside the issue is whether there is a moral imperative to overthrow a regime that commits murder on a monstrous scale or whether one must always stand aside and just "let them get on with it". Where do you stand?
Re: Catch 22 situation
[info]goatbucket wrote:
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 at 04:06 pm (UTC)
Yes they were, but obviously a far more demented strand than that of the Vietnamese. Nonetheless, it was they who were supported by the west, because the Vietnamese were obviously the enemy after they kicked out Uncle Sam. Yes, Margaret Thatcher thought that the Khmer Rouge were better than the Vietnamese, even though they were nominall communists.

I would have preferred that the rest of the world had done something about the Khmer Rouge. Luckily the Vietnamese had the ability to get rid of them.

Re: Nowhere to go
[info]kodak321 wrote:
Thursday, 16 July 2009 at 07:32 pm (UTC)
Sing, your interpretation is incorrect. Corporeal said the "Taliban have no where to go"...you asked "Why should they go anywhere else?"....your question is completely off-target.

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