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Leading article: The pursuit of MPs is becoming a witch-hunt

The abuse of expenses is serious, but we need a sense of perspective

Another week of revelations of MPs' expenses, another seven days of humiliation for the mother of parliaments. A welter of juicy details involving ornamental duck houses and tree consultants has tumbled forth to join what we already know about massage chairs, moats and bathplugs. The scandal has claimed the scalp of Michael Martin, who becomes the first House of Commons Speaker in three centuries to be ejected from office.

Yet, after a fortnight of bloodshed on the green benches of Westminster, the public reaction to this matter is in danger of getting out of hand. The tone of the debate has become hysterical. What began as a justified critique of MPs' behaviour has degenerated into crude bullying. And the row is now in danger of eroding the democratic health of the nation.

No one disputes that The Daily Telegraph had a marvellous story on its hands when it acquired details of every expense claim made by MPs going back four years. And the newspaper had every right to expose questionable conduct from our parliamentarians. Our democracy functions best when our politicians are kept under close scrutiny by the media. Yet the manner in which this newspaper has been delivering these revelations, day after day, is in danger of doing more harm than good to our body politic.

A drawn-out scandal

The damage the drawn-out nature of the scandal is inflicting in Westminster should not be underestimated. It is right that Mr Martin announced his resignation this week. The Speaker had been at the forefront of efforts to prevent the disclosure of MPs' expenses and was far too compromised a figure to preside over the reforms the Commons so evidently needs.

But elsewhere the impact of the scandal has been far from just. Party leaders have been panicked into imposing summary justice on those MPs fingered by The Daily Telegraph. Worse, as Lord Tebbit pointed out yesterday, there is a perception that the Labour and Tory leaderships are protecting their allies, while throwing the rest to the wolves.

The result is that some of the guilty appear to have been let off the hook, while others have been unfairly punished. The events of recent weeks have left many decent MPs disillusioned with politics. In our rush to shame those MPs who have raided the public purse, we risk demoralising the majority who have done nothing wrong. Let us be clear. Where fraud has been committed it should be met with the full force of the law. And the expenses padding practised by many other MPs have, without a doubt, been deplorable. A number of MPs have treated expenses as allowances, to be claimed in any way possible, rather than funds to help them to carry out their parliamentary duties. But there is a big difference between fraud and the milking of a laxly policed expenses system. Claiming for a mortgage that does not exist cannot reasonably be put in the same category of offence as kitting out a second home with furniture from John Lewis.

Not only unjust, but corrosive

The problem is that the public – along with many in the media – is reacting as if all expense claims are indicative of dishonesty. This is not only unjust, but corrosive. If we expect MPs to divide their work between two distant parts of the country, we have to pay for them to do it. Two reasonable people might disagree about how it should be constituted, but some residential allowance system is necessary. Equally, if we expect MPs to do their job of representing their constituents and holding the Government to account, they need to be given public resources to employ researchers and staff. This costs money. Without these allowances only the independently wealthy will be able to afford to enter Parliament. Those who howl about the corruption of the present system should consider the desirability of returning to the days when politics was the exclusive preserve of the wealthy.

Some have identified a silver lining in this affair: at least the public is now "engaged" in politics. This is naive. The public is engaged with the pillorying of MPs. A public flogging will always attract an audience. But this is not the same as being engaged with politics. MPs' gardening arrangements have certainly fired the public's imagination, but who is debating the issues that are the substance of politics? In fact, the expenses row is squeezing out any debate about serious and pressing issues such as the Government's policies to combat the recession and efforts to curtail runaway climate change.

The hysteria we are witnessing is, in fact, a symptom of the disconnection many feel from the political process. The plans announced by the various party leaders for cleaning up the MPs expenses system – such as preventing second home "flipping" and limiting the range of expenses that can be claimed for – are generally sensible. But the public has regarded this as an exercise in shutting the stable door after the horse's departure. It carries little credibility among those who feel that the political classes will always be a law unto themselves.

Clearly, there remains a considerable job of rebuilding trust in Parliament and our political system. Proponents of constitutional reform have been pressing their case in recent days, urging reform of the House of Lords, a new Bill of Rights and, somewhat counterintuitively, more powers for MPs. Other ideas also worth exploring are fixed-term Parliaments and two term limits for Prime Ministers. But we need to think carefully about the roots of this crisis when considering what reforms are needed. One of the lessons of the past decade is that large majorities tend to encourage a feeling of entitlement among MPs. Electoral reform would help to dispel this mentality; a more proportional voting system would tend to result in tighter Parliaments.

Furthermore, one of the striking features of the public response to this crisis is the vocal support for those who have indicated their willingness to stand as independent candidates at the next election. There is a palpable sense of dissatisfaction with the present choice on offer, a feeling from the public that its ability to register its voice is impeded. A more proportional voting system would relieve some of this pressure. Interestingly, the Health Secretary, Alan Johnson, mentioned the 1998 Jenkins review on electoral reform in an interview with this newspaper earlier this week as something that could reconnect politics with the public.

The attraction of the Jenkins proposals is that they would retain the constituency link for MPs while also making the composition of the Commons more representative of how the public votes. With the backing of thoughtful politicians such as Mr Johnson, the Jenkins plan might yet have its day.

The reckoning we need

But we have to realistic. An overhaul of the voting system is not going to be implemented in the coming months, however desirable that would be. And in the absence of such a reform, a general election, in which the public can vote out those MPs who it feels have betrayed its trust, is the next best thing.

While we wait for that reckoning, we ought, collectively, to take a deep breath and rediscover a sense of perspective on recent revelations. Those MPs that have milked the expenses system have, without question, behaved appallingly. But by overreacting to what has taken place, we risk doing our democratic system a double disservice.

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Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning.
[info]martin_craig wrote:
Friday, 22 May 2009 at 11:32 pm (UTC)
We seem to be entering a phase where newspapers who did not break the MPs' expenses story are telling the country to calm down, move on and in effect, go back to sleep and let the professional politicians get back to running our lives, however badly.

Voters are not 'hysterical', we are genuinely angry that many of those to whom we delegate responsibility for the nation's stability and future are not only incompetent but greedy and duplicitous. We are tired of hearing, "I did it because it was the right thing to do" and we certainly don't want to hear that old standby, "I think it's time we drew a line under this, lessons have been learned, now we need to put it behind us and move on." It won't work any more. What we desperately want and need is a zero-bullshit team, a coalition if necessary, who will drop party lines, talk in plain English and get back to genuine governance where the public are the beneficiaries, not a perceived enemy.
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning.
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:05 am (UTC)
MARTIN_CRAIG - well said, sir! Just as the bankers and politicians used the 'you don't understand' line, it is now the turn of the press, sadly in this case The Independent, to tell the public, 'the little people' what they should think and feel.

In this case, the public, having lost jobs, businesses, homes, savings and pensions in the economic crisis are deemed to be 'hysterical' because they dared to hold MPs accountable to their own rules and standards, 'The Green Book" and the MP's "Code of Conduct"

They public dared to want to see the law of the land applied equally, to all citizens, and that includes MP's. If they have committed an offence, why should they not be subject to a police or Revenue inspection?

Does anyone recall the "If you've got nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide" line bought out as our civil liberties were stripped from us?

How sad that this newspaper has adopted the 'move on, it's all over' approach to the current situation.
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning. - [info]tominlondon - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 09:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning. - [info]victormc - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 08:03 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning. - [info]mike4626 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 11:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning. - [info]teestee - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 12:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Not a Witch Hunt - a reckoning. - [info]richleau - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 04:31 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]helenahandcart wrote:
Friday, 22 May 2009 at 11:49 pm (UTC)
Oh come on, parliament and MPs need all the corrosion they can get. Why is your leader writer feeling so sorry for them? They don't deserve it, not at all. The idea that this will harm democracy is laughable, because it is rather predicated on the fanciful idea that we have a democracy to harm in the first place. Wake up, we don't.

The only way we will ever get a proper democracy is by removing the MPs and starting again. Like Mark Anthony, we come not to praise MPs, but to bury them. Only that way can we be thoroughly cleansed, and only that way can we begin to build the democracy that we have so far never had.
[info]solcreciente wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:48 am (UTC)
Democracy... indeed. Here we have only the right to vote once every 5 years for a person who will steal from the nation and then support invasions abroad in the name of 'democracy'. We have no other democratic way of influencing decision making, in reality.
Over the last 150 years the only thing not to have modernised and improved is Parliament. It is archaic, tribal, false, undemocratic, corrupt and in need of total change. Start by banning tribalism (political parties) and support a system of open debate.
Disagree
[info]chrisasmith wrote:
Friday, 22 May 2009 at 11:53 pm (UTC)
The DT is still coming out with mind-boggling fiddles every day. Just when you think it must bottom out, there are further revelations.

I'd like to see the focus switch to the worse corruption known as the revolving door.
Honest MP's and Witch-hunts?
[info]bioviewer2003 wrote:
Friday, 22 May 2009 at 11:57 pm (UTC)
To ignore systematic and endemic abuse of public funds by so called "Right Honourable Members of Parliament " must be a far greater crime?
It's not about the expenses
[info]jj9876 wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 12:04 am (UTC)
If you think for one moment that the expenses fiasco is about the expenses, then you have spectacularly missed the point.

They said that this expenses system had been in place since the 1960's and that 'we all knew about it - including the media'. So we let them get away with it for 50 years. However, since 1997, they (MPs and Government) have exploited us, the taxpayer and started a war on our individual liberty, our individual rights and our privacy in complete contravention of what we want. So it is only fair and proper that they lose all their earlier 'rights' of their allowances/expenses and all their rights to privacy.

The pursuit of fairness between the governors and the governed must never stop, as this is the only way the MPs will understand the bigger picture.
Telegraph's monster out of control
[info]humble_sparrow wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 07:24 am (UTC)
The Telegraph's crusade is not one of morality but one of revenge for Parliament attacking the corporate sector through parliamentary committees.

There has been no more mention of the corporate sector in recent weeks and the trillions of pounds that went down the plug hole with the greed and incompetence that accompanied it.

The Telegraph is not interested in the common good but in creating a smoke screen for their own kind as well as obviously selling more papers.

Meanwhile our Parliament of Parliaments is slowly being eroded and looks like it will be taken over by extreme elements whose mortally and democratic principles is highly questionable.

The Telegraph have whipped up the populace and created a monster that could erode the very fabric of our democratic society.

So it isn't just about expenses is it ? :-)
Re: Telegraph's monster out of control - [info]jj9876 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 08:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Telegraph's monster out of control - [info]voodoojedizin - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 03:07 pm (UTC) Expand
TRUTH CONQUERS ALL.......
[info]fantazamaraz wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 12:22 am (UTC)

AT LAST THE TRUTH IS COMING OUT

PEOPLE ARE SEEING WHAT IT'S ABOUT

INDEPENDENT IS THE WAY TO GO

GREED AND CORRUPTION IS OUR FOE

VOTE OUT EVERY SINGLE MP

AND BRITAIN WILL CHANGE AS YOU WILL SEE

WE NEED HONESTY TO UK REIGN

AND MAKE BRITAIN PROUD AND SAFE AGAIN
Yes it is a witch hunt
[info]nabil2000 wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 12:42 am (UTC)
Do not be fooled by thinking that if all the MPs now returned all the money they claimed as expenses, and even their salaries for the past 5 years that our situation will improve by an iota.
The anger we are directing at them is a common psychological trick the brain plays on itself when its owner is guilty of something, find the same in others, particularly authority figures and blame them for it.
Public, we need to improve ourselves too, we are the seeds of the politicians and the rich we criticise.
Just recently I read a report that the amount of personal debt we owe as a whole is still rising and is above the GBP 8 Billion mark, now whose fault is that?
Of course we can always blame others or the rules, or the banks, or circumstance, they make me do it...
So please, yes indeed a sense of perspective is sorely needed...
I acknowledge the Independent for this article who acts as a counter-poise for some of the irresponsible and very worrying reporting of other tabloid newspapers, such as Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph (yes I count Telegraph as a g u t t e r newspaper now).
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt
[info]linchung wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 02:17 am (UTC)
"The anger we are directing at them is a common psychological trick the brain plays on itself when its owner is guilty of something, find the same in others, particularly authority figures and blame them for it."

Are you speaking as a psychologist? No? Then perhaps you would accept a more plausible explanation from one who has a psychology degree?

Try this time-honoured observation: When people are consistently denigrated, disempowered and manipulated by arrogant leaders who impose and intimidate their wishes on them, they try to make their feelings heard. If this fails and they are further subjected to fear and intimidation, they tend to fall into a state of "learned helplessness". During this phase they become quiet, and either walk away or hide. They feel lost and depressed.

However, if they are then afforded the opportunity to bring their oppressors to a reckoning, they rediscover their anger, and fight strongly for their once-lost rights. In the process, much anger over other injuries and insults can also surface, which I believe is what this "witch-hunt" article is hinting at without quite having the gumption to admit.

The argument seems to hinge on why the public is so angry on "mere" expenses. A floating duck house, for God's sake? Why should that matter? Do I really care about a bath plug? Yes I do, because they tried to HIDE it all - by trying to alter a fair law, like it was none of our business, when they knew WE had paid for it all, in more ways than one. The anger is not guilt, nabil, it is rage.

If you want to see such processes in other times, look at the post-Vichy France, or the toppling of Bulgaria's Ceauşescu, or any other time when the forces of arrogance, oppression and the aggregation of too much power finally ran out of excuses.

Within the public anger is a true, real and timely democratic process, that, if allowed to flow naturally, will wash many nasty, corrupt, despotic and secretive poisons out of these creaky Aegean stables. And then, when this is done, we have to be mature, wise and forward-thinking, to make the best of a time of transition. That is the task - and risk - of the electorate, to be the change they want to see.

Fools if you think this is about expenses alone. And even more foolish to try to claim that, after years of being gagged by spin and over three thousand new ways to be criminalised, the public has no right to be incensed by this duplicity.

We don't get the leaders we deserve: that's the whole problem! We are not the seeds of the politicians (as you claim) - the system does not represent us as it should, and this has been amply shown. We the people have been seen as the problem, to be managed, criminalised, avoided. Money as God gives leaves us nothing but debt, fear and greed.

Time for change. How many ways to explain until they get it? Time's running out.
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]tzanev1978 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:57 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]linchung - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]tzanev1978 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:59 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]goosegreece - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 10:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]ratcatcher911 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 11:11 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]miopus21 - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:15 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]imogenlucy - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 07:11 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]northernnorman - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 09:59 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]victormc - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 07:06 am (UTC) Expand
Re: Yes it is a witch hunt - [info]thomasth - Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 08:00 am (UTC) Expand
Time to cool the hysteria
[info]indie_view_one wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 12:46 am (UTC)
It is true that this is now becoming a witch hunt. There has been some appalling behaviour, but does the Daily Telegraph want people to be so hysterically angry that they are phoning into radio shows wanting all MPs to be strung up and hung from lamp-posts. This is indeed the opposite of the public mass hysteria of grief which occurred after the death of Princess Diana. If newspapers write enough angry articles about venal bankers and MPs someone will feel justified in attacking or killing one of these pariahs of society.

As for the issue of an election, I would far rather wait for all the information about every MP to be published and fully investigated. All the information will be in the public domain and voters can access them once the hysteria has calmed down. Another advantage of waiting is that the current Parliament know how raw this issue is and will be far keener to get on and reform the current system. Any new Government would feel once elected that the election has given them enough credibility, so any major reforms can be kicked into the long grass and ignored.
Time for a belly laff
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:51 pm (UTC)
[info]a_ludlam wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 01:51 am (UTC)
"An overhaul of the voting system is not going to be implemented in the coming months, however desirable that would be."

Perhaps not, however a referundum could be included at the next general election that provided the voters with options to choose from that they would like to see implemented as reform measures. With all three main parties agreeing to abide by the majority public vote. Understand that failure to implement the proposed changes would not be an option for the MP's that win.

Announcing this would go a long way to diffusing the current anger and it would ensure that just about every single eligible UK citizen voted in the next general election.

As others have pointed out. The justified anger at the moment is not just about expenses. The expenses scandal has just been the last straw for a general public whose views have been marginalized and downright ignored by government for decades.

This cannot just be swept under the carpet. The public needs to believe that real change is going to take place and more importantly, that our vote actually counts for something.
I agree. Good idea!
[info]linchung wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 02:38 am (UTC)
You won't calm years of frustration with behind-the-scenes shuffling.

And you certainly won't engage voting without asking what we want, either! I think people are heartily sick of the present horse and pony show. And we know what UK Gov plc is afraid of: the BNP. So they had better get it right!
The pursuit of MPs is becoming a witch-hunt
[info]palestinian_ian wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 02:01 am (UTC)
The manner in which this newspaper has been delivering these revelations, day after day, is in danger of doing more harm than good to our body politic.

Load of tosh! If the DT had released ithe story all on one day it would have been forgotten within a week. We would not have had the time to digest the details or the scale of MPs honest mistakes. Rather than moaning about witch hunts, the Independent should be demanding to on what basis the miscreant claimers are being allowed to step down at the next election - and can keep their pensions -rather than being sacked from their jobs immediately, as would happen to anyone of the public who fiddles their expense claims.
expenses
[info]angryman9 wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 02:35 am (UTC)
This lousy gang of incompetent chancers are hell bent on turning this land into a version of the Russian Gulag, while enriching themselves at the expense of the slaves(for that is how they see us).
They are trying to create a passive malleable society of docile and supine Sheep, if the people vote Labour back in at the next election, this country will turn into a Police State.
So keep it up Telegraph, keep showing us what these bastards have been up to and have tried so desperately to hide.
So the "Independent" Recognizes The Danger...to whom?
[info]dravazed wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 03:16 am (UTC)
As is well known by now, the revelations are being released only drip by drip, because the 45 or so journalists working on the entirely unorganized records vouchsafed to them require great care. What would the "Independent" prefer--that the examination be hastily and therefore sloppily done?

Or is its real desire simply that the lid be put on, so that business may resume as usual...with, of course, a few symbolic heads already gone.

It is amusing though tiring, to watch the "watchdog press" turn from bark to whimper, as soon as the citadel of corruption appears likely to be well and truly stormed by the nasty commoners. Ah, a sigh for the pre-revelation days, when matters were tidy, moats cleaned, and...the faux liberal press spared from having to merely echo the revelations of their competitors. Hmm?
Re: So the "Independent" Recognizes The Danger...to whom?
[info]popskihaynes wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 09:31 am (UTC)
I agree with the general sense of this editorial (though not with PR), and wrote on my own blog a couple of days back that this had turned into a witch hunt and the drip by day by drip by day nature was turning into little more than a commercial ploy by the DT.

Yes they have had to sift through a lot of raw data, that takes time and requires skill so, it was never going to be a one day scoop and I am a Telegraph reader but something caught my eye and I followed it through but it started with the Andrew Mackay saga. This man and his MP wife should certainly be kicked on the grounds of being totally thick, they cannot even fiddle their expenses properly !

I then looked at the Bill Wiggin saga and this is where it all started to unravel because what he did was put the wrong address on his claim form now whilst stupid he certainly was not claiming for a phantom mortgage and even the DT admitted that he had to show the Fees Office the mortgage paperwork for the London flat he was claiming for. But the DT kept banging on about this as if it were a big story.

Personally I am all for naming, shaming and if appropriate, prosecute people but, I also want to see some fairness applied and common decency, this trial by the media is fundamentally wrong. As many people have already commented, the public uproar is not just about expenses, that is what lit the fuse. The sight of the ever chippy and smug Blears caught with her hand in the till is too delicious a moment to have missed. Yes we are angry about a whole range of things to do with our personal economic prospects and our grandchildren s too , these Labour Governments have turned out to be the "Lords of Misrule".

But the point is now made and the first thing we need is a proper and formal examination of this expenses data, if necessary by the Police, we don't want a lynch mob mentality, we want due process and a cool and public debate about the changes that need to be made to the way Parliament works so that it works better for us. There is a very good Charles Moore article in today's Telegraph, I don't entirely agree with him either but it is time to move forward.

WHY NOT HAVE..
[info]thisanthat wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 03:26 am (UTC)
a witch hunt if it is to clear out the dross of Public Life? The majority of these public servants have betrayed the trust of the Uk citizen with their nefarious practices.
Who are the victims of the witch hunt?
[info]gwilliamm wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 03:49 am (UTC)
I have been the victim of a witch hunt all my life from the state the very people like the MPs who only now are being brought to order are complaining because they are being asked to account for there dishonest behaviour. I never got to see my family grow up because I had to work away from home so I had to keep 2 houses and I can assure you that my allowances did not include anything but the bare necessities and even then these were questioned. When times really became hard in the UK I emigrated and worked all over the world rather than sit on my backside. All the talk about retraining is a misnomer I served a 5 year apprenticeship in engineering, worked for 30 years in the oil & gas industry went into full time education for 4 years late in life reached degree level and still could not get a job in UK. So who are the victims herethe MPs OR THE PUBLIC?
This Anger Goes Much Deeper
[info]peter_beckett wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 03:54 am (UTC)
The seething anger of the British people has been building up to this point for many years.

This Big Brother,tax-grabbing,oppressive,turning-justice-on-its-head,no-sense-of-fair-play,over-regulating government only has itself to blame.

The expenses scandal is merely the catylist which made the public's rumbling volcano finally blow its top!

leading article
[info]edcarrera wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 04:11 am (UTC)
I m not surprised that there is no name to this article if i had written it I would not want my name on it it completly mises the point. the public patronised by the writer are enraged and have an interest in politics surely you should realize that if a person is reading the Independent then they are capable of forming an opinion.. I have followed avidly the past two weeks because I care about our democracy. the writer does not seem capable of grasping this and one would conclude is either a politician or a journalist married to a politican or hopes to be one. if so journalism will not be at a loss.
Re: leading article
[info]tominlondon wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 10:01 am (UTC)
My money's on Steve Richards as the author of this editorial. He's the right-winger, the establishment man, the elitist. Screw him, and screw his liberal-posing newspaper. The sooner it goes bust, the better.
Tom and Jerry had one A dog but that is a bitch close enough?
[info]famulla wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:13 am (UTC)
Withes in the time of Julius Chaser were on the brooms and women only. When did this change. I am not Rip Van Trickle but I was sleeping for 25 years in the hospital and saw all the movies of the Err, Drone, Dr. Who, Spiderwoman but there is no man witch in any of these. Can you perhaps send me the name of one, only one book that says all the parliament members are to be the witches? I am so happy to meet you in person. You witchy. EEOE Tom and Jerry had one A dog but that is a bitch close enough?
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla
Hunting down of MPs
[info]frigalo wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:27 am (UTC)
The courts fortunately ruled in the people's favour - not Parliament's. We can all have faith in them still, which is a great relief. But the whole truth was not coming out was it? It took a man who was in the SAS to get it out in the public domain. The tone coming from Westminster changed once they eventually realized that we were not going to say "Oh dear, what a pity, never mind". The Tory MP Anthony Steen blurted out in his peevish way that it was all the fault of the FoI. The people of the this country were being treated like mere ignorant peasants who should know their place. The Palace of Westminster had become a self-serving, out of touch elitist establishment. THE PEOPLE ARE TAKING IT BACK. Oh, and by the way Mr Cameron - forget bringing back hunting for the toffs. Get them to find some REAL WORK. Not banking.
Re: Hunting down of MPs
[info]w1551ns wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 09:06 am (UTC)
Yes. There are enough 'merchant bankers' as it is, thank you very much.
You've discredited yourselves
[info]jimjanja wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:28 am (UTC)
It's good to see the establishment joining forces and discrediting themselves. We can add The Independent and the Archbishop of Canterbury to those who want to prevent the political class from being accountable to the public.
Given that we are on the verge of national bankruptcy, it looks like there will be nobody with any credibility to defend the status quo.
Hopefully when the people sweep away this corrupt regime they will choose freedom and not tyranny, but we'll soon find out.
the shoe on the establishment's foot
[info]cronyblatcher wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:54 pm (UTC)
Sour Grapes?
[info]rubik101 wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:37 am (UTC)
Had the Independent had the good fortune to scoop the story I'm fairly sure it would be running in much the same manner as it does now in The Telegraph.
It is the manner in which the 'expenses' rules were interpreted so freely that irks Joe Public. They are meant to cover the costs involved with accommodation whilst attending Parliament. Just how does a duck island and pruning trees constitute a reasonable expense. Theses people are thieves, pure and simple. Hunt them and do what we do best with witches!
Dont stop until the fat lady sings
[info]mike_spain wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:01 am (UTC)
Whether this is a witch hunt or not is immaterial as the country wants and needs change. Political parties had little trust in the country before this expenses scandal but has anything changed yet, I don't think so. We've had one or two stepping down from parliament, one or two being kicked out of their party as an immediate response. Camerons spoken tough and Browns bull shitted his way yet again about what he allegedly feels but nothing of substance about what he'll do. Just look at Browns previous treatment of the Ghurkas, does anyone think Brown would have done the right thing if Ms. Lummley hadn't embarrassed Phil Woolas and bent Browns ear. Until we actually see real change and legislation in place to stop these sort of fiddles the naming and shaming must go on. The fat lady hasn't sung yet and MP's can still revert back to their thieving practices once the fuss blows over.
A fatal flaw in your logic!
[info]mannygoldstein wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:19 am (UTC)
A witch hunt may involve moral panic and mass hysteria but that is not what is going on in the UK at the moment, at least amongst the general public.

The letters columns of newspapers, the television programmes such as Newsnight or Question Time do not show mob rule, rather a measured, often dignified, response to the revelations about their elected representatives.

Their may very well be evidence of anger, disgust or frustration, but the general tone is not a cry for 'rough justice' but for MP's to be held to account in the proper fashion. This means the rule of law and their own Green Book and Code of Conduct.

Bankers misjudged the public mood, politicians came next, is is now the turn of the press to not "get it"?

The press have not covered themselves in glory over the last decade, these very revelations did not result from journalistic work but a theft of confidential information and its subsequent sale to The Daily Telegraph. The press could be the next group to fall into disfavour with the public?

Re: A fatal flaw in your logic!
[info]linchung wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 05:48 pm (UTC)
Agree, sadly.

The press has a very important job during times of repression and change, and cosying up to the establishment is a dereliction of their duty. Sorry to tell you your job, folks, but if you hear and see the responses of the public - which are made clearly and forthrightly - how can you misunderstand what is being said?

Perhaps you should allow a group of citizens to actually articulate their opinions as articles in your newspaper? That may be more balanced reporting than to have professional hacks opining about "the public mood". No offence, and I appreciate what work has been (belatedly) by your paper, but it would stand the paper in greater credit than their present pronouncement.

Think it over, "Independent" newspaper staff. It could work well.
the bankers, the politicians and the press
[info]roross wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC)
If they haven't already got there, anybody that reads this article AND the commentaries will probabaly realise that the crises in our society are mainly the result of these three institutions. In real life all of us punters generally pay the price for the wrongs we do. But not this lot. Above the law, they are. So we've started attacking them. Why do they refuse to accept the situation? Every day there are more ordinary citizens who look for ways to avoid banking, avoid voting and avoid buying newspapers. It's taken long enough, has it not? The fact is that all this is beginning to look good, not bad, as this article would have us believe. They've all colluded to make this world a pretty shitty place and they don't want it to change because they're at the helm. But the world doesn't have to stay like that. We can change it. Let the public pulse be the harbinger of that change. That other lot no longer hold the moral high ground. Let's have a little faith in ourselves. Keep hitting them
sad article
[info]sergio_montes wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 06:52 am (UTC)
It is a sad article because I used to like this newspaper, the independent. It is an anonymous article, obviously because nobody would like to have her name related to such and stupid piece of misinformation. Shame on the independent. Of course the king is naked. And just to let you know, we the readers are not stupid (at least not as much as the one who wrote the article thinking it could influence our opinion with such a lack of argumentative logic). Shame, shame and more shame on the independent.
I used to like this newspaper
[info]sergio_montes wrote:
Saturday, 23 May 2009 at 07:01 am (UTC)
I guess you have to write this article defending the undefensible in exchange for some material gains. Beggars believe that the independent (or anyone) tries to defend extreme greediness. I guess the person (or people) responsible for this article is experiencing high levels of distress, maybe consuming antidepressives or other psico-active drugs to shut his/her/their conscioussness. It is sad and mad. And by the way, we the readers are not stupid. You put yourself in an stupid position trying to manipulate us by writing this anonymous (who would dare to put her name behind it?) so called "leading article"
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