Fighting talk from a gentle giant lionised in two lands

John Charles Interview: As Wales prepare to face Italy, the favourite son of both countries tells Ronald Atkin about split loyalties as he battles against failing health

On the dining-room sideboard of John Charles's home stands a rather special set of model footballers: the 11 most talented men ever to play in the English League. In the centre of the front row, in the old Leeds colours of yellow shirt and blue sleeves, is Charles himself. John starts to identify the others – Stanley Matthews, Frank Swift, Peter Doherty, Raich Carter, Danny Blanchflower, Johnny Carey. Then he falters. He can't remember the names of the others.

Two months away from his 71st birthday and still only half a stone heavier than in the days of his glorious playing career, the man always known as the Gentle Giant has suffered two hammer blows to his health. Five years ago cancer of the bladder was diagnosed. Then, two years back, Alzheimer's.

But the head that pops round the kitchen door in welcome at his house in Birkenshaw on the outskirts of Leeds is familiar and cheerful and, as he chuffs a defiant cigarette or two in the conservatory, the Gentle Giant remains precisely that: white-haired now but still quietly spoken and content with a life which could, and should, have brought greater reward late on. After several sessions of treatment the cancer is in remission, and the current memory problems extend to nothing more worrying than names and the occasional date.

There is an important date looming of which he is fully aware. On Wednesday evening Wales play Italy in a European Championship qualifier at Cardiff's Millennium Stadium and, as an honorary vice-president of the Welsh FA, someone who played 38 times for his country and, most memorably of all, with distinction in the Italian league, Charles will be introduced to both teams. Not that any introduction will be needed.

John Charles, CBE, is the only foreign player resident in Italian football's Hall of Fame. He has been voted by the fans of Juventus, for whom he starred for five years, as their best-ever foreign player, better even than Michel Platini. Websites regularly nominate him in football's all-time top 10 and, in the estimation of Jack Scott, a goalkeeper who played with him at Leeds, Charles is the best footballer ever.

Most of this information comes as a surprise to the gentle, unassuming giant, though the news that there is a petition circulating to have him knighted briefly perturbs him: "Oh dear, what difference does it make?" Apart from the possibility of extra deference, very little, in truth, to someone whose love for football remains absolute. He is a guest, along with other great former players, at every Leeds home game and, via television, follows with keen interest the progress of England and, of course, Wales.

The man whose 42 goals in the 1953-54 season remain a club record at Elland Road and who could operate with commanding genius at centre-forward or centre-half, compared football in his day and the present day and decided, yes, he would have managed quite well in the modern game. "Once a footballer, always a footballer, in whatever era," he said.

"There isn't all that much difference, though players are fitter now and do more running about than they did when I played. The balls are different as well," he added with a smile, pointing to the lump in the centre of his forehead, a legacy of the moisture-retaining, lace-up leather balls of his time. He recalled an anecdote of early days at Leeds: "If it was raining I used to say to our winger, Harold Williams: 'When you cross the ball make sure the lace is facing away from me'."

Unsurprisingly, Charles nurses not a gram of bitterness about footballers' wages then and now. "Good luck to 'em. I don't feel jealous, it's wonderful. When I played I considered I was well paid compared to the man in the street, not only well paid but guaranteed to get it every week, that was the big thing."

Charles's starting wage when he signed for Leeds on his 16th birthday was £8 a week, wonderful news for someone whose father, a steelworker, had often found work difficult to come by in the prewar days. It was a signing with a funny side. A Leeds scout by the name of Pickard turned up at the Charles's council house in Swansea and said the club wanted to recruit John. "My mother said: 'He can't go, Mr Pickard'. He said: 'Why not, Mrs Charles?' And she said: 'He hasn't got a passport yet'. You see, my mother had never been out of Wales."

Minus a passport but in possession of a contract, John travelled up to Yorkshire and an encounter with one of the great names of English managership, Major Frank Buckley. "To sign for Leeds and Major Buckley was unbelievable. He was something special, a great man in all ways, though I think they are still trying to find out what he was a major of. Nobody knew whether he had been in the army or not, but that was what they called him and he loved it. He had a very strong personality, though. You had to do what he said."

John Charles actually started football life as a left-half but it was not long before Major Buckley, in his wisdom, decided that the youngster should use his commanding stature in the middle of defence as he made his way up through the Yorkshire League and Football Combination sides into the first team. "My wage when I got into the first team was still £8 a week," he explained, "but there was also the £2 bonus if we won. But by the time I left Leeds my money was up to £15."

That departure (reportedly because Leeds' uninsured West Stand had burned down and they needed cash to rebuild it) came after 10 seasons, during which Buckley had the inspiration of moving Charles into the attack. In those 10 seasons he made 318 appearances and scored 154 goals, with the highlight that record 42-goal year, a year which Charles typically describes as "lucky".

John had made his international debut at the age of 18 years 71 days, which remains a Welsh record, in 1950 against Northern Ireland at Wrexham. His parents were not there. They considered it too far to travel from Swansea. But representatives of Italian football made the journey to Britain to see this young giant of the game and in May 1957 Charles joined Juventus for a then world-record fee of £65,000. By then he was in possession of a passport, having needed one to play for Wales in France.

Charles was the first to tread what would become a well-worn route and admitted: "It was a challenge and I was scared. I wondered what I had put myself in for." What he had put himself in for was not a great deal more money, £20 a week, but a vastly different, and fascinating, life. "It was lovely and the Italian people were terrific. As long as you played football for them they didn't care where you came from. And if you won a big game, like the derby against Turin, the chairman would give you a good bonus. But money didn't matter too much. In Leeds it had been great, wherever you went you never paid for anything, while in Italy it was unbelievable, people followed me around to pay for me there."

Charles, who has been dubbed "Britain's most successful football export", won three championships and the Italian Cup twice in five seasons with Juventus. He played 178 times, mostly up front, and scored 105 goals in a tough league in which his gentleness was greatly tested. "Roma had a centre-half called Lozzi, only about five foot eight or nine, but a very good player. He used to kick hell out of me and just said sorry. I said sorry right back."

In August 1962 Charles decided he wanted a return to what he considered his home club, Leeds. The deal was done and Juventus sold him back for only £12,000 less than they had paid, one of the sport's great bargains. The return to England, with a wife and two young sons, was a disaster. "I wanted to settle but couldn't," he admitted. "I missed everything about Italy, the weather, the food, the people as well." So, two months later, Leeds profitably sold Charles to Italy for a second time, Roma for £70,000. He was now 30 and this move failed too, with John unhappy at being based in southern rather than northern Italy. So, after one season in Rome, he was transferred to Cardiff City for £25,000 and finished his League career there with 66 appearances and 19 goals in three seasons.

If he had been fortunate in the matter of injuries, with only a cartilage operation on each knee, he was subsequently reduced to non-League football as player and coach with Hereford, "where I was still on £20 if I was lucky".

He had stints as manager of Hereford and Merthyr, as well as coach with Swansea, but remains remarkably frank, and possibly excessively self-critical, when he says: "I fancied being manager of a League club but it was never going to come. I don't think I was good enough. Maybe I wasn't nasty enough, either. But in those days it was hard to get a job like that."

So, like many of his contemporaries, Charles drifted into ownership of a pub. It was in Leeds and called the New Inn. This was followed by management of a hotel in Gomersal, West Yorkshire, then a shop, then a spell coaching in Canada before retirement in his early 60s. "I don't feel bitter the way things worked out," he insisted. "I loved what I did in football, it's the best game in the world."

He keeps in touch with that beloved game with his regular visits to Elland Road and monthly gatherings, at Peter Lorimer's pub, with other former Leeds players. Charles considers the Wales team being assembled by Mark Hughes has the potential to be one of the finest ever. "Ryan Giggs is one of the best wingers in the land, if you can call them wingers now."

Though you know he would never dream of saying so, he remembers as possibly Wales's finest side the one which he helped to reach the quarter-finals of the 1958 World Cup in Sweden before losing 1-0 to the eventual champions, Brazil. "We had a great manager, Jimmy Murphy, and some fine players, like Jack Kelsey in goal, Ivor Allchurch and Cliff Jones. We surprised everybody by getting to the last eight, especially our committeemen and selectors, who had booked a return flight to England after the first round of matches. In those days you couldn't change your tickets, so they had to fly home and then come back out again to watch us play Brazil.

"Murphy was one of the great managers, in my opinion. Once, when we played Germany in the World Cup, his team talk was: 'Gentlemen, these people bombed your houses and killed your aunts and uncles. Go out and get your own back'. So we did."

Charles, who considers Paul Scholes the best of the current footballing crop in this country ("He is always involved, never out of the game") has not seen any of the four sons from his first marriage graduate into football, though the eldest, Terry, played rugby for Cardiff. Now, after one more cigarette, it is time for John to have his picture taken. His second wife, Glenda, issues loving but firm instructions that he must head off upstairs to have a shave and find a tie to wear. A bit like the old days in Leeds, you feel. The Gentle Giant knows better than defy people like Major Frank Buckley and Glenda Charles.

Biography: John Charles

Born: 27 December 1931 in Swansea.

Position: Centre-forward/centre-half.

Nickname: The Gentle Giant.

Playing career: 1949-57 Leeds United (318 appearances, 154 goals); 1957-1962 Juventus (178, 105); 1962 Leeds United (11, 3); 1962-63 Roma; 1963-66 Cardiff City (66, 19). International: Wales (38, 15).

Honours: 1958, 1960 and 1961 Serie A championship; 1959 and 1960 Italian Cup winner; 1958 Serie A player of the year.

Also: Never sent off or given a yellow card. Top scorer in Serie A in his first season with Juventus. Top scorer in the Football League for Leeds in 1953-54 with 42 goals, still a club record. Youngest-ever Welsh full cap at 18 years and 71 days in 1950.